Well, looks like we're finally back on track. The last three posts were all great, and I think it's because all had an element of open-mindedness. Each was able to get away from the 'true believer' mantra and either stated or implied that perhaps they didn't have all the answers. That's a great start for a civil discussion on ANY subject, but especially any discussion involving religion. But the second someone comes in and starts making 'absolute' pronouncements, that's when it all goes south and the civility ends.

Rory's last post was honest, thought-provoking, and really made me sorry that I didn't get a chance to meet him in person at Summer Namm. I tend to migrate towards people who are bright enough to know a lot but are still quick to acknowledge that they don't know everything, and that there ARE no 'absolute truths'.

I am not anti-religious, but I'm also not pro-religious. I believe that for some people, it serves as a guide to how they should live their lives. I think others are able to figure it out for themselves. I guess what I have a problem with is the concept of worship. Even if there were some higher life-form, why should I bow down and worship it? I can see trying to reach the same intellectual level as this more advanced super-being. But I can't see any motive for worshiping it other than fear of what it might do to us.....and in fact, isn't that precisely what most Judea-Christian religions tries to instill in us at a very early age?

The church needs believers and it needs to convert non-believers. It could not exist without them. If one looked objectively at the Catholic Church, you would have to conclude that it was ultimately about power, influence, and wealth. But only for the church's hierarchy. How else can one explain the enormous fortune amassed by the church while millions of it's most devout followers (particularly in South American countries) languish in abject poverty.

I guess, like Bill, that there probably is a 'spiritual' element to our psyche, I'm just not sure about it's origin.

As to Fran's 'no Atheist in a foxhole' theory, all I can say is that if it takes a life-threatening situation to suddenly make you a true believer, then God may question your sincerity. But hey, what've you got to lose........except your character.

chas