Squeak,

Like Squeak said...he didn't want to hijack the Tyros 2 posting and neither did I.

He's not wrong with this thing about those who are allergic to too much keyboard "weight." I'll use the word myself......they are "whiners!" The music is about entertaining an audience and not about sending a keyboard to Weight Watchers so you can haul it around town without a tow truck! If you have to put it on wheels and add a gear box to it and DRIVE it to the gig, well then that's what you have to do.

His recollections of the gig's from H__l brought back a flood of my own memories. At my peak, I was gigging (party events) carrying a total of 18 cases by myself. And that was before Rock 'n Roll carts arrived on the scene to help move everything! Most of these cases were full size. I was playing three keyboards MIDI'd together. Then you had the whole sound system (two big speakers, head, microphone cases), the odds & ends case, the processor rack, the USS stand setup right and left, etc. My best time for setup was 50 minutes. But you know what? I didn't mind it because the sound I got was incredible and I loved making people happy, listening and dancing to good music. The setting up/tearing down routine was secondary...the audience came first.

Someone on a gig said it all. I was tired one night as I was packing up and mentioned it to one of the waitresses. She replied: "Would you rather be driving a taxi cab in NYC?" Ever since she said that, I remind myself of that remark when I start feeling "my equipment is too heavy!"

Yes, the Tyros probably IS too heavy if you're used to gigging with a harmonica. Those of us who played through those years get a big laugh out of the "weight" freaks. The new technology did fantastic things with the music, but unfortunately it also made a lot of "wimps" and "whiners!"

Please.....only those who went through what we did back in those days are allowed to flame this letter. The rest of you need to pay your dues first!

I hear you Mark! Look, it could be worse, we could be drummers here - or tuba players.

On the other hand, look at it this way. Why inconvenience yourself when you don't have to?

Another thing is this: I want to be doing this gigging into my retirement age. I can see packing up a keyboard like a PSR-S900 and two JBL Eon10 G2's when I'm 65. I cannot see packing up a Fender Rhodes and a PA system when I am that age. Add to the equation that I am 140lbs - albeit very healthy, but no Adonis.

I think that the Tyros 2 is a very reasonable weight, but when you're doing 500 + gigs, the PSR-S900 might be a better choice - especially if you are setting up monitors every time.

I think that if you are doing fewer - higher paying gigs - like this fellow on SZ I was talking to who is very busy doing 2hr. children shows at $600 a pop, if I were in his shoes, I would definitely get two Tyros' instead of two PSR-S900s.

Beakybird

Makes me wonder why Arnold kept pumpin' weights his whole life. it certainly didn't make him any weaker.

Granted that I no longer gig but when I did I had to lug an organ. I helped the drummer with his gear and he helped me carry the organ. The guitar and bass player always complained about having a sore back. Go figure.

So, if you think a keyboard is too heavy for you, don't buy it. Get a lighter one. I just don't understand why it's necessary to make it an issue for no amount of complaining is going to change anything.

As for myself, I only care what I get in voices and styles. Weight is the least of my worries.

Taike

Uncanny. I worked with that very same drummer and guitarist .

chas

It's not so much the weight, but the design and weight combined that causes the complaints, IMO. I have a keyboard amp that weighs more than my G70, but because it's almost square it's much easier to lift and carry. My Mackie 808s is heavy and I cringe every time I have to carry it; why, because it only has one handle.
I don't have any experience with the T2, but it does seem deep and maybe a little bulky. Maybe that is the reason for the complaints. ???
As for complaints in general - these are the boards we are working with, so we complain about and praise them - big deal! When I was younger and stronger I sent back a PC88 because of its weight but today I gladly haul around my G70 - go figure.

We bitch because we can - get over it.

Quote: Mark79100
He's not wrong with this thing about those who are allergic to too much keyboard "weight." I'll use the word myself......they are "whiners!" The music is about entertaining an audience and not about sending a keyboard to Weight Watchers so you can haul it around town without a tow truck! If you have to put it on wheels and add a gear box to it and DRIVE it to the gig, well then that's what you have to do.

Please.....only those who went through what we did back in those days are allowed to flame this letter. The rest of you need to pay your dues first!
------------------------------
Top marks for your selfish, uncaring & insulting attitude Mark
I DID go through it in those days - I also carried an organ about on a regular basis, gigging at pubs & clubs. I also live in a very hilly area with lots of gradients & steps to cope with so a cart would be of no use. I was however, extremely fit, having worked out with weights most of my life together with running, cycling & swimming.

I'm now 67 and despite loving my keyboard & music just as much as I ever did, I suffer from Sciatica & Arthritis. As a result, the weight of a keyboard is a VERY important consideration to me.
I�m not a whiner - just a guy who still loves to play and likes to entertain the oldies (for no fee) at a sheltered housing complex - would you prefer I pack it in and not be allowed to have my views, just to keep you happy.

What's wrong with some of the SZ contributors (like you) who think everyone should hold the same views as you. We are all entitled to our own preferences, whether it be a keyboard weighing X pounds or less, or from whichever manufacturer we favour, and to state our views on the Forum just as you do.
Grow up, and be thankful for your good health - it might deteriorate to the level of your thinking processes.
Unlike you, I won't stipulate who's allowed to answer my posting too - I believe in free speech.

I'm surprised at your narrow-mindedness, Mark, and, just to let you know that I've paid my dues...I used a B3 with two Leslies for many years with the addition of Rhodes, and several polysynths.

As far as I can tell, nobody has been whining about weight...we all want lighter gear, unless we are masochistic...every one has just been expressing their cares and concerns about it.

The "flamer" in this thread is YOU...calling people names like "whiner" is not a sign of maturity in my opinion.

You talk like you're a road warrior...why not act like one?

Ian

Small world, isn't it, Chas?

I played a Hammond with an external Leslie for years. Here in Michigan during the winter months you'd have to go outside and hook up the trailer, drive to the job, sometimes shovel the walk yourself so you can roll the organ in on the dolly, then hoist it on the stage, go out and get the Leslie and do it all over again. At the end of the job reverse everything except maybe the shoveling. It was sooo much work you never brought your equipment into the house. You left it outside in the trailer from 0 to 90 degrees.

Now if the keyboard is 50 pounds so what? I'm not counting those of you with health problems.

My friend just got a pair of Peavey PR series speakers with a 15' speaker and a horn. They weigh less than 20 pounds a piece and they sound great. He also got a Yamaha head that is 350 watts a side and it weighs about 8 pounds. I do really like lighter but I'm not going to complain about 50 pounds or less.

Tom

Been moving an MS-60 with speakers and internal amps (40 plus lbs, I think) to 5 plus jobs a week for years. I too played a B-3 and Rhodes (still do 3-4 jobs a month), but mostly for house jobs-6 nights. I often thought I should have gotten at least one SM-50
(same instrument without speakers and amps) for some of the jobs.

Now, I'm about to use a G-70 and SH-201 on most jobs, with some adding an XB-2 and GW-7.

It's a little harder (an age thing) but still well worth it, in my opinion. Of course, it helps to have a son who plays bass in the group and set up equipment for a OMB 2nd job in one day. He's young and strong, and feels sorry for the old man.


"Gramps" Russ

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 08-22-2007).]

I think the response isn't about simply weight-watchers, but it comes from hearing those that DO choose lightweight keyboards CLAIM that it comes with no penalty... Basically, as if to say that those of us that DO appreciate a good 76 note keybed, high build quality and TOTL features have no idea what we are talking about...

I am the first to say that, if you need light weight, for WHATEVER reason, go ahead, best of luck, mate! I am pretty sure that by the time I get into my sixties (got another ten to go!), I may have to use lightweight equipment myself. But there is no way I will try to tell anyone else that, just because it is MY choice, it MUST be the best way! I will look enviously at other player's rigs, with nice big actions, and wish I could still lug one around

There is a reason that you don't see the majority of pros on TV or in Vegas, etc., playing one 61 note ultra-light workstation. It is NOT because they can afford to play anything they want to, it is because they need a keyboard they can play ANYTHING on, from full piano parts, to multiple splits and run the whole show with midi. 88's are the norm, then 76's, and most of the time you see a 61, it is because they have more than one keyboard in the rig (which kind of defeats the whole point)

Now SOME of them get cartage (but fewer than you would expect), but to most pros, the one area they CAN'T cut corners on is their rig. If they get a call for a piano part, they daren't show up with a 61, no matter HOW good the sound.

My arranger gets used for everything from standard arranger gigs, all the way up to full band calls and session work. It replaces two keyboards and a module or two (for full band gigs), and so is MUCH lighter than previous full band rigs. It replaces, from WAY back in the day, a van full of Hammonds, Rhodes's, Wurli's, Yamaha's and the like.

But, apart from the B3 section (and what IS a reasonable replacement for one of those to a diehard Hammond fan? ), it performs as well as all the other stuff, at a fraction of the weight. But to my ears and fingers, this is the lightest it CAN go at the current time without me noticing a REAL drop-off in quality.

I have always said, as soon as they bring something out BETTER that is lighter, I will get it in a flash. As long as it doesn't bounce around while I play it because it is TOO light! But the MINUTE it involves any compromise with the key-action or sound, sorry, got to pass...

Until I'm too feeble to move it around...

The only statement I can make, which I sincerely believe is relevent, is Don't Get Old. When I was young that PSR-5700 seemed fairly light, and hefting that 107-pound amp from the van to the refrigerator dolly was just part of a days work. And, those 105-pound speakers, what the hell, they sounded good. When you reach the ripe old age of 67 and perform one to two jobs daily, plus drive 40 to 75 miles between jobs in grid-lock traffic, lighter keyboards, regardless of the number of keys, is much better. In fact, anyone that hauls heavier equipment around, just because he or she thinks is better, is an idiot. If you sincerely believe that lugging that heavier crap around makes you a better performer/musician/entertainer you're living in the dark ages. Nobody gives a damned if your keyboard has 76 keys, 61 keys, 88 keys, of 200 keys. Your audiences could care less if your speakers are 10-inch, 15-inch, 20-inch or 36-inch--they just want to be entertained. This entire topic is utterly ridiculous. What the hell am I doing here? I'm going to mix up a good margaretta, prop my feet up, hope for good weather and go sailing.

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

But what if the heavier equipment IS better? I mean, no-one is playing balsa wood pianos (but they gotta be lighter!).

Not ALL heavy gear is better, but not ALL lighter equipment is either...

Liberace could have entertained a crowd on a kazoo. This, I guess, makes him a moron for using a piano? The list of top pros that use 88 key equipment is pretty much ALL of them. Idiots all, apparently.

Some of us play for the people that CAN tell the difference. Others, it seems, prefer an audience that CAN'T. You are welcome to them They will soon be all that is left, once you show an audience that you think they don't give a damn about anything but 'entertainment'. Better get your chicken hat warmed up!

Age and health, as I said, were VERY valid reasons for using less than the best because it is lighter. I think you just proved my point. Now, you kids.... GET OFF MY LAWN

Diki, don't go overboard on this topic. You yourself say that if you can get a better and lighter keyboard you'd buy it. That's what we're all saying. BUT, there soetimes have to be choices and compromises.

For years I did the Hammond/Leslie thing too, but it was too heavy for ME. Then I kept the Leslie and tried other keyboards and soon the Leslie was gone too - weight? My 3-way Toas gave way to two-way Mackies. My PC88 became an XP50 - always striving for something better and lighter. I dropped my DC5 and VR760 for one G70 - always striving.

Weight can be and is an issue for many. Let it be an issue for THEM. The original complaint was about the Tyros2 - not heavy but awkward. Gee, what are we arguing and getting hot under the collar about? If someone wants to take a B3 and a 122 to three jobs a day let them do it. If someone else wants to take a PSR E403 and a mini-amp to one job a month, let them do it.

Don't worry, be happy

No, cassp, this is what Gary is saying..



It's not that we mind lugging the extra weight, it's that we mind being called idiots for doing so, when, to all but the blind and close-minded, there IS an appreciable difference between mid-line and TOTL equipment.

It's probably the same reaction Gary would have if someone heckled him for hauling around that PSR and speakers, when he could have entertained just as well with a Melodica! It IS, after all, much lighter... The audience doesn't give a damn if it has 61 keys or 15... Do they?

I am not lugging around heavier equipment because I THINK it makes me sound better. I am hauling it around because I KNOW it makes me sound better. Excuse me for wanting that....

How right you are, Gary.

Ian

------------------
Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

I'm begining to think a lot of people prefer to argue about keyboard brand/model preferences (my kb's better than yours), etc, because they find it easier than actually dedicating the work & time required to improve their kb chops & arranger playing skills. If you own a relatively current keyboard now, simply appreciate what you got and share actual arranger 'music making' tips which benefit all arranger players. You'll be amazed how much keyboard improvement you'll notice if the amount of time spent improving one's keyboard skills replaces the time spent posting on this forum promoting the mine's better than yours attitudes. I think it far more productive to share (tips/tricks) on improving arranger keyboard playing technique and also hearing more actual 'arranger keyboard' mode music performed here.

That said, I definitely appreciate having a light compact keyboard to afford convenient gig transport.

- Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 08-22-2007).]

DITTO!

Gary

Yeah, but does it rock ?? What about longevity ? Will it hold up to 2 or 3 roadies ? Can it be restored? Or is it a throw away ?

Interestingly enough, I just restored my 1956 C3 (sn 60786)and 74 147. IT (they) were on the road from the time I bought them in the spring of 1974 until 1986. Prior to that the organ was in a church since built.

Moved it totally by myself for 2 years. Not a problem. Never, ever stopped once. I did have to replace the lower rotor belt, once. House entertainer in the same place for the better part of 4 years - Mostly, 7 nights a week. Never failed to start during all those years. Always rocked. I have both of them in my living room now and they are both even more atonishingly beautiful now than the day they were made. And, play and sound amazing. Imagine that at 51 years old (the organ, not me) I'm older. Wife won't let me move it to the studio. She makes me use the XK3 there.

I can't imagine I'll be able to do the same with my Tyros in about 33 years. But who know's ?

Danny

PS: I working on the Rhodes now.



[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 08-22-2007).]

Can't say I miss my B3 and Leslies (or my Rhodes)...but some people love retro gear like some people like old cars...as the saying goes "they don't make 'em like they used to".

Then again, sometimes that's a good thing.


Ian


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Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

Now that's a man who is making sense!!!!...great post Gary!!!!



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-22-2007).]

Cant we just get along?

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-22-2007).]

Scott asking to share music, demos, ro anything that pertains to listening to any body's work ....is a "RED" area and leads to massive arguments....I should know

Don't be fooled my friends ....
That Chicken hat has made mucho bucks $$$$$$$ thru the years!!!
http://www.chickenhats.com/Chickenhats.htm

Donny, I guess it could be said that you are poultry in motion.

Ian

.......at the right gig it makes all the difference believe me!

The point I was making was, it's the memories. Well over half of my life. I am glad I kept my stuff all these years. I am also glad it was built by people that cared enough about what they where building to tell the bean counters to take a hike.

Danny

No bean counters in 1956?

Get serious.

Laurens Hammond was that cheap he used to turn off the stove burner whilst flipping the bacon.

Memories are like the rear view mirror in a car...spend too much time looking in it and you lose sight of the road ahead.

Every time I think about lugging that big old B3 it makes me want to hug my S900.

Ian





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Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

Is that so. How about that.

Danny

when i was young i carried a bari sax, tenor sax, and bass clarinet on my person in heavy cases through airports, on subways, up stairs,etc. I paid my dues for that. 2 hernias..

a couple of operations and decades later I carry only an alto sax and an Eb sopranino (2/3 the size of a soprano). whenever i think i can get by with just the sopranino i leave the alto home. Funny, i sound a lot better
than i did back in the day, not because of equipment but
because the years have made me a better player.

better equipment is a marginal utility, and everyone has
to make their own cost/benefit analysis where better
equipment means better sound... because better sound
means Caruso or Satchmo sound better on a CD thru a killer stereo than they do on a spool on an old victrola. But Caruso/Armstrong arguably sound better on an old victrola than most of today's stars on a CD thru a killer stereo.

That is why most of don't purchase a $10, 000 stereo
system, or even a $5,000 one even if we can afford it,
unless we are filthy rich, because we consider it marginal utility. it's just not doing THAT much more for us than a decent $1500 system. When those of us that set a limit
on how much weight we are willing to lug around for
the additional sonar benefit (presuming there is one, which is another argument--some don't think so) we are
assessing the marginal utility, and acting accordingly.

Improving our musical and performance skills makes
us sound better on lesser equipment than having stagnant
skills on better equipment. this is a nice way of saying
that a great musician will sound better on a $500 psr
with any decent sound system loud enough for the gig,
than a mediocre musician will sound on a G70 or T2 with
the best sound system money can buy. Sure the great musician will sound even better on the upgrade..but it's
a marginal utility that has to be judged by him alone..
after all if you hear Caruso or Louis now on an old victrola they will still send chills up your spine. would you pay
$100 and travel 100 miles to hear their record thru a Bose? sure it will sound better..but......you get the idea.

Lee Trevino used to hustle good country club golfers who could afford the best equipment--he'd play them with
a coke bottle attached to a broomstick, and still beat them. I'm not in his comparative league.

I'm no Lee Trevino of the keyboard. i can't give a concert
on a $300 casio and a little keyboard amp and make it work. But i can kick some ass with my E60 and a decent keyboard amp. I'm not about to shlep around a G70
and a big sound system, just to sound marginally better while I'm kicking it..but i'm not knocking those who do.
au contraire, I admire those who do..just not those who
look down on others who don't..

those oldtimers who are complaining about whiners (gee-
sure sounds like that's a whine too, no?) you remind me
of the Billy Chrystal /Christopher Guest characters
on SNL back in the day.."hey, when we were young it was better..if you cut your finger, there was no antiseptic, it would get infected and they would have to amputate it..
and we liked it that way.."yeah, right...and we had no can
opener so we stuck in a knife and twisted it..and it might
pop out and take out your eye..but we liked it that way...

hey, remember before suitcases had wheels? did you like
it better that way? were the guys who put wheels on them
"whiners?"



------------------
Miami Mo

Scottyee....that's a real nice post you wrote. One of the best I've seen on these boards. I wonder how many of the folks this applies to will read what you wrote and think about it. Or will they go back to their old ways (as some have exhibited here) to:
always attack a poster who desires to express an opinion that you don't like
always ignore the MEANING of any message that rubs you the wrong way
always spend every free minute talking about the specs on the latest keyboard rather than PRACTICE

Scottyee's posting:

I'm begining to think a lot of people prefer to argue about keyboard brand/model preferences (my kb's better than yours), etc, because they find it easier than actually dedicating the work & time required to improve their kb chops & arranger playing skills. If you own a relatively current keyboard now, simply appreciate what you got and share actual arranger 'music making' tips which benefit all arranger players. You'll be amazed how much keyboard improvement you'll notice if the amount of time spent improving one's keyboard skills replaces the time spent posting on this forum promoting the mine's better than yours attitudes. I think it far more productive to share (tips/tricks) on improving arranger keyboard playing technique and also hearing more actual 'arranger keyboard' mode music performed here.

Its good to have Scott Yee's voice of reason back on the SZ....its refreshing!

Me too... Just my light, compact keyboard is a little heavier and bigger than yours. But it is STILL amazingly light and compact compared to what I was using, even a decade or so ago...

I still shake my head at how doggedly some refuse to actually quote my words (or others' that they don't agree with) and substitute them for their own. No-one is saying that heavier is better, We are just saying better is better, and at the moment, weight is the penalty for being better.

I don't pick my equipment with regard for it's weight... I simply pick it for it's functionality and sound. If weight is the penalty, I am prepared to pay it.

But saying one must be an idiot to play heavy equipment is as insulting as saying one must be an idiot to play less than the best arranger available. You have made that choice, for weight's sake, and good for you... I am not calling anyone an idiot for making that decision. Just stop calling me an idiot for making MY personal choice.

"Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance". Or the lack of it...

Quality and performance equals quality and performance. Nothing more, nothing less. When I can get equal quality and performance from a lighter keyboard than my G70, I will buy it. Not less, for less weight. EQUAL for less weight.

Scott, well said

Good post Scott...makes a lot of sense.

Ian

------------------
Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

Strange, of course, that the ones actually agreeing with Scott are those who post incessantly here at SZ, rather than practicing... And, of course, by posting, rather than practicing (as he recommends), they are actually showing they DISAGREE with him, in a way...

But if Scott ever moves to a 76-er, will they STILL agree with his sentiments (which actually, apart from the last sentence, had NOTHING to do with keyboard weight)? You'd better keep agreeing with them, Scott, or they will misquote, mislabel and misrepresent everything you write...
---------------------------------------------
Common mistake.... repeating the same old line over and over makes it any more correct. Don't be fooled.

------------------
Roland, Korg and Yamaha too...will we ever get a chord sequencer from you?

Bigger...better...heavier...there's no clear winner here. I would be one of the "idiots", because I wouldn't get caught dead playing anything with a "PSR" in the model number. I won't play assisted living or nursing home jobs. I play my old MS-60's or my G-70, usually with a 2nd keyboard, because I think they SOUND better. And, that's what matters.

To those who play lightweight instruments at mostly retirement/nursing home functions, KNOCK YOURSELF OUT! Make lots of money. Be happy! I'll be happy for you! And I won't judge. We each have the right to "do it our way" as long as we do the best we can, keep learning, feel good about what we do and get paid to do it.

Do what's right for you, because that's what really matters.


Russ

Glad you woke up on the RIGHT side of the bed today Russ great post very heartfelt bro

You could always hide the model number with gaffer tape.

Ian



------------------
Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

Can't hide that crappy action, though...
---------------------------------------------
Common misconception... A PSR demonstrator is ever going to tell you anything unbiased. Don't be fooled.

It's crappy to you...so what?

To these fingers, it's pure joy!

And you're unbiased?

Ian





------------------
Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

and ian, with your connections to yamaha, you're NOT!!!????

You're right Miden...I am biased and proud of it.

Ian

------------------
Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

Here we go again ! Diki. you're most certainly entitled to express your opinion, but I suspect your 'choice of words' was used to merely take a jab at Yamaha S900 owners. Afterall, there are far many more courteous ways you could have expressed the SAME thing, and which would have earned you far more respect as well, especially keeping in mind that some of your (fellow?) sz forum members just laid out their hard earned cash on a S900, and perhaps quite content with the keyfeel. I'm the first one here to appreciate reading the wide diversity of opinion here, but just think more courtesy and respect to our fellow members is in order. Just my opinion of course.

Scott

I have to say, amidst all of the heartache I am having with the defects on the two PSR-S900's I got, that I am having so much fun playing this keyboard, and I am getting such a great response from my audiences.

This keyboard gets great sound, it's light, and I am just loving to play it.

Beakybird

Scott

Personally, I'm lovin the action on my Motif XS. Eh hmmm. Just a thought. I wonder why they can't put a nice action like that on the top of the line arrangers? To heavy ??

Note to self: check back often.

Danny



[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 08-23-2007).]

Scott,

It's essential that you take Diki's antagonist remarks with a grain of salt...I actually find them rather amusing, sort of like watching a child blow bubbles.


Ian



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Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

like this?

Yep...that's about right.

Ian

------------------
Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

@ ian...and fair enough too!!

By the cringe!! Quite the assumption there, mate. The all-knowing, all-seeing Diki strikes again. You must have incredible powers of sight and hearing to know that everyone who agrees with Scott and posts here apparently does nothing else.

Powers that are worthy of changing your handle to SuperDik, I'd say.

He's everywhere! He's everywhere!

A laugh a minute folks.

Gee.....all I did was blow off steam one night with this message and now I find myself tied for the all-time Synthzone "reply" record. One more (which is this one) will put me at 54...one more than "rikkisbears" & 3 more than "squeaks" posting!" Do I get a free Tyros if it reaches 60?

what?? we've had 200 posts on a thread in the past

Personally, I find all this righteous indignation and holier-than-thou lectures, just a little annoying. Besides, Diki is right on point and accurate 95% of the time (the 5% being when he disagrees with me ). Okay, so he can be somewhat brittle at times but you can't let that cloud the message. Just ignore those parts that are clearly biased and opinionated (such as any and all references to the G70 ).

In any case, if I'm trying to learn something OR be amused, i'd rather read one of Diki's posts than the "sermon of the day". Besides, "I don't need no stinkin' practice", I peaked 30 years ago and never got any better.

chas

Perhaps you can let "brittle" slip by, Chas, but I can't...and it certainly does cloud the message as far as I'm concerned.

Digging through a pile of horse manure just to find a few oats seems like a waste of time to me.

Ian

------------------
Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

You're probably right, Ian. I mean, how tasty are those oats going to be, anyway?



chas

I guess we'll have to wait till some very brave and patient soul reports back with a culinary review.


Ian



------------------
Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

nobody- to my knowledge -has been as ticked off at Diki's arrogance-some toward me personally- and has said so as much as I have. (not counting those silly g70/t2 feuds i read)but he does have a sharp mind as well as a sharp tongue, and has as much or more to offer us as anyone i have read here--and i'm more than willing to hang in there with him- on sz, information and expertise and the willingness to offer help and advice are much more important than anything else..all the other stuff is petty..and all the "nice guy" posing i see here all the time, giving each other moral support, etc.. is just so boring--like a bunch of lonelyhearts looking for love. I'm here to learn and to offer help in return, and i couldn't care less about "nice", "polite", etc. I've been insulted here by several members, and while I'm human and feel the barbs personally, i don't complain about it, I don't quit, i don't carry on feuds and grudges. I'll take one obnoxious-at-times Diki over 80% of the rest of the sz crew because he's right on 80% of the time.

------------------
Miami Mo

Here's the way I see it...if you can't handle a dig, then top it; if you can't top it, laugh it off; and if you can't laugh it off, it's probably deserved.


Ian


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Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

A great assessment of Diki.....which is why I like him. The same could be said for Sir Winston Churchill, Oscar Wilde, Mark Twain, Noel Coward, Bette Davis, Yogi Berra, ...okay, scratch Yogi for the "sharp mind" part, and a host of others that we generally admire. The thing is, you have to look at the total package.

BTW, Mo. I'd love to hear some of your sax work. For those with access to decent recording equipment, I think we (all) should consider a collaboration. This CAN be complex, though, so i'll put it up in a seperate post.

chas

"what?? we've had 200 posts on a thread in the past"

200 posts!!!!!!!!! Was the poster selling $10 bills for $5?

A few of you have mentioned exchanging notes about playing music (as compared to talking about the equipment). I've seen this in other groups also. Can anyone tell my WHY no one talks about "playing" as in playing technique, songs they are working on, how they're going about it, ideas to play certain songs (in certain ways), etc?

I've posted in other groups, and I find that everyone is very conversational and willing to share information until they find out I'm a professional. That brings email interaction to an immediate halt. I used to take it personal until I started thinking that everyone talks up a storm about how much expertise they have until they find they're talking to someone who DOES have expertise. I say this not egotistically, but factually.

Anyone else experience this? I, myself, would like to exchange notes on playing. I still work on improving every day and practice 2-5 hours daily on the keyboard. The equipment posts are secondary for me.

Wow, finally another sz member who shares my interest. Mark: please email me. My email address link is provided on my website's "contact" page: http://scottyee.com

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 08-24-2007).]

There have been very heated discussions in the past...before the "Big Bail-out"
I cant remember the topic of the particular thread...but maybe with a search you can see the # of posts? in the last 2 years or so.


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-24-2007).]

Quite frankly, I don't think I've ever seen any discussions about playing technique or arranger playing tips on SZ (with the exception of Scott)....seems to be all about gear.


It is nice to see people interested in learning more about the trade rather than just the tools.

Ian



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Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

Ian,
discussions about the "trade" are common on Fora like the Keyboard Corner (at Musicplayer.com), where people talk about reharmonizations, chord substitutions, etc
and I have to admit that the level of the discussion is most of times WAY above my head, but at least I am stimulated to learn something new...

Anyway, even on Fora whose members are 95% amateurs, it's very common to exchange ideas about the best style to use for a specific song, and this is the "amateurial equivalent" of the discussion that goes on at Keyboard Corner.
Here at SZ, on the other hand, the discussion is focused mainly on the gear we use, but I have to say that unfortunately almost 80% of the opinions given are preconceived and this makes almost useless whatever advice one could receive.

We all know that there is not a thing like a perfect keyboard and so the most sensible thing to say, when giving advice, would be: "My keyboard is good at doing this, but unfortunately is lackind under this other respect".
Talking continuously about the superiority of a brand and denying what other brands can offer is pointless and also useless for the novices that come here seeking advice.
Unfortunately, this behavior has almost become a conditioned reflex, so everytime the forumite "X" writes "I am 100% happy with my Tyros 2" the forumite "Y" replies that the Tyros 2 is a plastic toy and real professionals have only one choice: a Roland G-something.
At that point the forumite X feels offended in his honour and replies something in a bitter tone and the discussion becomes quickly heated.

...Ah, I almost forget that, in the meantime, another forumite keeps repeating in the background that the keyboard you play has no relevance, because what the audience really wants is to be entertained and -to that effect- you could as well play a kazoo or do some kind of funny dance.

Does all this ring a few bells?

Now you all tell me: why should anyone take this Forum seriously?

[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 08-24-2007).]

Your post makes sense to me, Dreamer, and you're so right about this forum being a difficult place to take seriously.

I have directed several of my clients, and a few reps as well, to this site, and they were not impressed...and they did not return.

I have been in several heated discussions on this site, and no one comes away the winner...there are always hurt feelings and egos.

I enjoy sharp wit but not when it becomes a weapon to offend, or to make a person feel that they were dumb to make a certain purchase or to use a certain piece of equipment.

Someone smart enough to have quick wit should also be smart enough to know how to be courteous and civil.

I am a member of several other forums and have rarely experienced the "gear wars" that take place here.

As I said in an earlier post...it's a shame to have to wade through all the crap just to find a few insightful and helpful tips.

That being said, I do enjoy coming here to see who is bickering...lately it's just become amusing to me, especially after experiencing a near death experience a few months ago...it certainly put my priorities in order.

Ian

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Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

Andrea (Dreamer): I assume names were withheld to protect both the innocent & guilty parties.

Interesting that though this forum is titled the "General Arranger Keyboard" forum, rarely has there been any interest in discussing or sharing arranger keyboard "playing" techniques, or even members actually posting arranger keyboard music played & recorded by them either. This always baffled me because I thought that a true musician desired to continually improve their musicianship & playing skill no matter what age or level currently at, and I had hoped this forum to be an inspirational catylst and exchange of ideas to achieve this. After reading this . . .



it confirms what I suspected for a while now, that a many here share Cgiles's view as well, and the reason I now only drop in here occasionally to discuss non- music related matters.

Scott

Well, it is called Synthzone. And this subforum is called the general arranger forum.

I have been a member here for quite a few years myself - going back to before the forum lost it's datasbase (as I recall)some years ago and required re-registering. Evidently, files can't be uploaded and myself, as someone that has worked with computers for over 30 years, I can't even figure out how to upload a picture. Really all you can do is dicuss instruments, imo.

But also this forum becomes too much like Gearslutz forum at times, what with the mfgr reps and salesmen that hang out here.
But at least on Gearslutz, when a mfgr or salesperson starts trashing someone elses product, that person is severely taken to task and will be suspended by the moderators. AND all salespeople and mfgr reps must state as much in their signature.

I have noticed over the years that the above mentioned types make it difficult to have any real discussion because the threads nearly always get sabotaged.

Such as, several posts back I very seriously asked "why can't Yamaha put a nice keybed on the top of the line arrangers"? Since this thread pertains to weight, could it possibly be that much of a weight issue? If that is what people say, I don't believe it. I will admit that my Motif XS seems to weigh little more that my Tyros, but it cost less and it is built like a tank which will probably last for years and years and, it has a delightful action. Full size keys also.

Or perhaps they (the mfgrs) have just written the arranger instruments off as just NOT top shelf.

I can't help but wonder if threads like this one are what sabotages any requests for a more substanstially built arranger.

Danny

[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 08-24-2007).]

Yamaha music is comprised of different divisions...digital pianos, synths, arrangers...etc.

These division actually compete with one another and often are reluctant to share sound-sets, keyboard actions, and many other features.

Sometimes a division uses a new technology to "test the waters" before it gets passed around to the others as witnessed with the Super Art. voices

I work as a demonstrator for Yamaha, and as a part of my job, I get to try keyboards from other manufacturers and compare...I do not diss the other's products outright, but I do discover things that don't appeal to me such as excess weight, inferior sounds, poor OS or poor workmanship...I also get to appreciate their good features as well.

I work for Yamaha by choice...they are the best in my opinion, and I want to be associated with the best...it's that simple.

I had been putting my job title in my profile, but it was used as a means to attck me several times, so I removed it...it's back again now.

BTW, the new Motifs are using the FSX action that was first introduced in the Tyros2.

Some people like to keep their gear for a long time...I like to trade up every 2-3 years to take advantage of the latest technology...especially in the arranger area.

Works for me, but not for everybody.

Ian








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Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

Danny


[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 08-24-2007).]

Danny,

To do a quote thingy, just click on the far right icon above the posters message...it's in the same place as the profile.

I found the keyboard action of the original Tyros to be only as good as the ones in the low end PSRs...and not any where near the quality it should have been.

The Tyros2 corrected that...thankfully.

Yep, I agree...having a choice of sound-sets would be great...whether it'll see the light of day in Yamaha arrangers first is questionable...probably will debut in synthesizers.

Ian



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Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

Really, Scott? 'cause I could have sworn it was to admonish us on our practice and posting habits. As far as practice is concerned, I believe that's a PERSONAL decision for most of us; besides, clearly SOME need it more than others..... know what I mean .

For the record, I PLAY 2-3 hours a day, although probably only 20% could be construed as formal practice. Since I'm retired, this still leaves me plenty of time to respond to your post.

chas

Mmmmm....If practice makes perfect, and nobody's perfect, why practice?
Ian



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Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

So why not practice pumpin' some iron?

It's difficult for me to believe that a healthy man, complains about having to lift 30 to 50 lbs. Why not take a look at ourselves and only then decide who's to blame. I'm almost 50 and I can lift more now then ever before. Or is it that I prefer to keep myself in shape?

And I find it extremely silly to complain about weight when there's "tons" of light gear out there. So get yourself a light keyboard and that's the end of the story.

I prefer a solidly built keyboard so that's what, if I like the voices and styles, I go for. And what if I can't find what I like out there? Well, I simply go for the next best solution. And do it all without complaining.

It's all too easy for me to agree with Mark. What's the big deal of him making his point. I agree with Chas as well. No matter how hard I try not too. Chas and Russ, the voices of reason.

As for what brand or model you play...I could care less. I judge the one playing it, not the brand or model.

Get in shape! Not an insult but a life saver. Sending a Richard Simmons tape would be an insult. Your loved ones willl love you more for it and you'll get to love them longer.JMHO

Taike

Taike, I like lighter gear because I'm naturally very lazy.

I do stay in shape with martial arts, but, for everything else, I try to find the path of least resistance.

Hardest part of being lazy was getting over the guilt...that took all of 5 minutes.

Ian the Indolent

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Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

Hard to fault his logic .

chas

I must be out of touch with reality as it exists today.
the only thing I used to carry to the gigs was my arrangement folder because I was playing piano. I often doubled on Trumpet and that was out in the car if I needed it.
NOW DAYS, I am 76 and I carry either a tyros 2 with a separate sound system or my G 70. I also pack along a PAIR of Peavey KB 100's that I think are about 75 pounds each with only one handle
I just pack them out to the motorhome, stow them in the basement and away we go. somehow I just don't understand all these previous posts in this thread. It was interesting reading but makes no sense to me. Maybe I am just too old to understand or even give a shXt
I do what I do because I want to. those that want to listen to me do so because they want to
Best to all,
Bebop

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Nope, my above 'reply' was merely in response to what I purported a statement made in sincere on your part. It's not my business, and I don't care whether you (or anyone else here practices), but your statement gave me the distinct impression you (and perhaps a number of others here) have no interest in what happens to be one of the primary reasons I like to frequent arranger forums: to exchange arranger keyboard playing techniques & performance tips, and to hear other arranger keyboard player's produced music. That said, good to hear now that you still actually enjoy playing 2-3 hours a day.

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 08-24-2007).]

One thing to remember if we were to talk more about arranger playing technique is that arranger playing technique is dependant on the brand and type of arranger one has.


Because when one tells of how he plays with his arranger, he would use features that are specific to his arranger.
One may talk about how he revoices a style on the fly to go from one song to the next using the same style. on his TOTL arranger. But that feature may not be available on a midrange arranger. So you may get a my own is better than yours argument.

Also when one is playing a 76 key arranger, he can do much more than one who plays a 61 key arranger and that would cause a big argument.

And even if we were to have these discussions, most of the players are concerned with entertaining rather than giving a good musical performance.

And posting music is a no no here because if a poster, with the intent of demonstrating a function or use of an arranger, get severely criticized for his playing or singing or sounds used, would feel bad and not want to post again. People do not want to take the demo post for what the poster intended it to do. They attack the poster�s ability and of course that poster has a very big ego.

I agreed with everything you said except the above comment.

A combination performance/superb musical performance is what the audience wants

zuki

Sad BUT Very true......great post!

Genesys, though I agree with what you're saying to a point, there are also playing techniques & features which are unique to yet universal to most all arranger brands & models :

intro, variation, fill, ending, start, stop buttons
auto-accomp styles
voices
left-right hand voice parts
user stored registration Setups
right hand melodic & soloing ideas
acoustic instrument emulation techniques
transitioning between variations
creative ways to to add fills & breaks
muting & adding auto-accomp parts
chord voicing & voice leading
arranger mode: pitch & modulation wheel techniques



I think it's merely the put down TONE used (ei: so and so's keyboard is: "crap", "piece of junk", etc that are precipitating the wars. Every keyboard brand & model has unique features to appreciate & showcase, and and I think this to be a wonderful opportunity for members to showcase them, either in their music, or describing how they are utilized when they perform. This kind of thing might even convince me to consider purchasing that brand/model next time.



It shouldn't. I think this would be a terrfic opportunity for 76 note keyboard players to SHOWCASE the advantages with an arranger mode song utilizing 76 keys. Afterall, confucious say: "a picture (song) is worth more than a thousand words".



I think both qualities (both musicianship & entertainer skill) can be appreciated on their own merits, or together.



Perhaps, but this problem lies in the fact that this forum lacks an active moderator (as other forums have) able to put out fires early enough on. That said, this situation could be completely avoided if people merely display common courtesy and respect towards fellow members. "Can" this happen? yes. Will it happen? It's anyone's bet.

Scott

Scott great post and ideas...but sadly this whole technique demoesqueish sharing scenario is a smoke screen to a previous Bombarded request for demos which in reality to share "How You Do it" falls into the same category.....Yes we would love this to all work, Yes learning from each other in a perfect world seems feasible,but its still a VERY PERSONAL thing in How we all play .... Yes with all the Video opportunities such as You Tube, Skype, Camfrog we can have a great learning experience between players in that we can all learn from each others way of doing it, Yes scott it all makes sense on paper or in theory....BUT will it happen....not likely.
Although in a smaller get together maybe 1 or 2 people in a P2P type of session on one of the programs mentioned above it could be super beneficial....I would suggest that you Video tape your technique lesson & then you can share with with whom ever you like online.....or although more difficult set up a time to do a group lesson online via camfrog/skype etc etc ...try a technique a week and see what happens......
a video is worth a thousand words.

If you have to ASK for a demo to understand why 76 is better than 61, well, like the jazzer said... 'You'll NEVER get it".

There's a reason pianos have 88 notes. Most piano players will even poo-poo using 76, and they'll definitely diss you for using plastic... Are you saying you've never heard a piano player?

As I pointed out earlier, UNLESS you use arranger mode 100% of the time (and even then, 61 restricts you if you choose to split the keyboard into three parts), you will run across musical situations that need more than 61 notes. I play a lot of LH bass, and I love keyboards that start at low E, perfect for bass parts (I'm not the biggest fan of 5-string basses!). I play piano (and electric piano - need 73 for that!) with a lot of bands (and a lot of SMFs!)... What is more to the point is, how often can you get away with LESS than 76 without compromise?

Of course failure to admit that you are making ANY compromise is the root cause of the whole thread. I am compromising about weight (don't REALLY want to hump 45 lbs if I can help it!), I'll admit that any day, but Scott actually ASKING to hear examples of stuff using a 76 as if he has no idea what it could be used for... that's just denial!

None of today's arrangers are designed to be used strictly as arrangers, or else, why the sequencer? Why the MP3 players, why workstation functions at all?

The minute you acknowledge any use of an arranger beyond simple LH chords, RH solo voice, you have to acknowledge the usefulness of extended range in the keyboard. Whether you choose to get an arranger with this extended range is often a function of, firstly, does your choice of arranger manufacturer even MAKE a 76?

I definitely laugh when I hear die-hard Yamaha users defend 61 keys. They HAVE TO. They have NO choice. If Yamaha DID make a nice 76 S900, I am sure at least a few of them would choose one, if not many, especially if they took the Ketron model and placed the bender above the lower keys so it didn't actually have a much bigger footprint that a T2. Until you actually DO have a choice, it is somewhat immaterial to defend your choice. You actually had none to make...

And choosing to play an acknowledged inferior keyboard action is a financial and practical decision, Ian, but it isn't a MUSICAL decision. Perhaps I am an idiot for putting that first and foremost, but what can I say? I just have different priorities than some...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 08-25-2007).]

Diki, calm DOWN & rel-a-x dude!

Reality check time. It's obvious you don't READ my postings very carefully. I NEVER ever ONCE claimed that 76 notes isn't better than 61. Here's exactly what I wrote:





As you can clearly see, I was specifically referring to "arranger mode" playing. I NEVER denied the benefits of 76 keys in solo keyboard playing. That said, I would LOVE the opportunity to appreciate the benefits (in an ARRANGER MODE performed song) which utilizes the full range of 76 keys, as I'm sure there are some songs which would benefit having this.

In conclusion: YES of course, if I had a choice, I certainly would prefer 76 vs 61 keys for the flexibility of being able to play in traditional pianistic style, and better yet, have the kb also include: fully weighted 'hammer action' keys to actually play the way you can on a piano, as even semi weighted keys doesn't allow for truly playing in a pianistic style. That said, to benefit having a far lighter & compact keyboard, I'm finding 61 keys quite acceptable, with the added "flexibility" of midi-ing up my Roland A33 76 note controller when desired.

Diki: It's obvious your priorities different than mine, so nothing less than 76 keys will do for you and I respect that.

If Yamaha ever comes out with a 76 note arranger which can fit in a similar sized case as T2, and not substantially heavier, I will be first on board to buy it, and this is exactly what I advocated & pressed for to Yamaha in my paid consultations with them. What they end up deciding to do is up to them, not me.

Ok Diki, have you calmed down yet?

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 08-25-2007).]

Diki, you are really getting more articulate with your insults...first "crappy" now "inferior".


I don't ask you to justify your reasons for using whatever keyboard suits you...why do you think it's any of your business about my choices?

I do find your posts interesting and informative, and I think you do contribute much to this forum, but please cut the insults...don't lower yourself to "flamer" status...it is very unbecoming and I know you're capable of much better.

All the best,

Ian