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#375989 - 11/22/13 05:56 AM The open arrangers
Bachus Offline
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Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
How are the smaller brands handling themselves that took it uppon them to build more open arranger systems?

Lionstracs quit producing musical instruments all together, they are now in the automotive switches buiseness.

Wersi went broke, and the new owners seem to be moving away from an open system to a more closed system.

And the bigger compagnies dont dare to approach the more open systems, and maybe they are right as 95% of the arranger players would not be able to handle them anyway.


If anyone ever tries an open system again, it should be aprofessional system with tagged on arranger function?

Or would putting a V- arranger in a keyboardbox with pc hardware and touchscreen work? I think it only works if they add a fully yamaha/korg/roland/audya compatible soundset. Including VST for instruments like SA2 and DNC.
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#376004 - 11/22/13 07:04 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
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Registered: 07/21/05
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Now the Wersi name is under professional ownership (Music Store) they are starting to get the open system back on track, with the New Sonic having pretty much everything anybody could wish for, and in standard mode can still be used effectively by the OOTB (Easy Play) users out there, however switch to Expert mode and it effectively becomes a Workstation. (According to the details published so far all he sounds and styles for it have been done by professional musicians, programmers and style designers, which is something Wersi could never afford when it was on its own)
Full details here

As to whether the Sonic will filter down into just a keyboard (Which without its organ incumbents should theoretically be able to be produced for a similar price as a TOTL Arranger) is unknown at present, however I would be surprised if they didnt. (Fingers crossed)

The Pegasus Wing was designed to compete with the Easy Play Arranger market, (Press a button and everything is done for you) which it does well (Its also way cheaper than the TOTL Arrangers from Ketron, Yamaha etc.) and still retains the full upgradability of the OAS system. (If demand was proved there is no reason all the professional features couldnt be added to it)

The current organ system (Introduced in 2000) is also still going with continual improvements. (Unlike the old days when features were added whether they were needed or not, Music Store makes sure the update gives a much improved experience)

Bill
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#376008 - 11/22/13 07:28 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
adimatis Offline
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Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1159
Loc: Oradea, RO
Eventually, that is the future.

I don't know for instance how close vArranger is to be using complex VSTi sound modules, but as many other examples, the technology will lead us to using smaller and smaller devices, for more and more powerful applications. Everything goes software. Arrangers cannot be an exception, it's just that for now the big R&D departments seems to still prefer going the old verified route - maybe they actually try to get the most of it, before jumping to the future.

Fact is, the VSTi have developed to a level where 10 years ago not many believed they will. Progress I guess. It is a shame the arrangers wouldn't take advantage, but I realize it's a titanic task to actually write the code needed for this. Maybe not even possible for now... but it will come.

That will happen when big companies will take it on board. The small companies cannot really produce the change, I don't think. Unless their product ends up in Big companies portfolio.
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#376012 - 11/22/13 07:45 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Wow! The Wersi Sonic is only 15,999.

A couple of decent gigs should cover that nicely...


Ian
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#376013 - 11/22/13 07:46 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: abacus]
Bachus Offline
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Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: abacus
Now the Wersi name is under professional ownership (Music Store) they are starting to get the open system back on track, with the New Sonic having pretty much everything anybody could wish for, and in standard mode can still be used effectively by the OOTB (Easy Play) users out there, however switch to Expert mode and it effectively becomes a Workstation. (According to the details published so far all he sounds and styles for it have been done by professional musicians, programmers and style designers, which is something Wersi could never afford when it was on its own)
Full details here

As to whether the Sonic will filter down into just a keyboard (Which without its organ incumbents should theoretically be able to be produced for a similar price as a TOTL Arranger) is unknown at present, however I would be surprised if they didnt. (Fingers crossed)

The Pegasus Wing was designed to compete with the Easy Play Arranger market, (Press a button and everything is done for you) which it does well (Its also way cheaper than the TOTL Arrangers from Ketron, Yamaha etc.) and still retains the full upgradability of the OAS system. (If demand was proved there is no reason all the professional features couldnt be added to it)

The current organ system (Introduced in 2000) is also still going with continual improvements. (Unlike the old days when features were added whether they were needed or not, Music Store makes sure the update gives a much improved experience)

Bill


I think there is definately a market for a new Abacus, as long as it gets the attachable 76 keyboard pro option and a big 18" touchscreen and full open VST support (instruments and effects) and upgradable hardware and an option to import user created styles for other keyboards

and some knobs to turn around and a few free assignable buttons (but thats my personal petpeeve)
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#376014 - 11/22/13 07:48 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: ianmcnll]
Bachus Offline
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Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
Wow! The Wersi Sonic is only 15,999.

A couple of decent gigs should cover that nicely...


Ian


thats quite ignorant ian, both you and me know its a home organ not intended for gigging, and they must be compared to the roland attelier organs price range and not to arranger keyboards

and you failed to read that the Wersi TOTL arranger Pegasus Wings only costs half a Tyros 5.
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#376015 - 11/22/13 08:00 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Dnj Offline
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#376023 - 11/22/13 08:17 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bachus
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
Wow! The Wersi Sonic is only 15,999.

A couple of decent gigs should cover that nicely...




Ian


thats quite ignorant ian, both you and me know its a home organ not intended for gigging, and they must be compared to the roland attelier organs price range and not to arranger keyboards

and you failed to read that the Wersi TOTL arranger Pegasus Wings only costs half a Tyros 5.


Not ignorant, Bachus, just sarcasm...the latter is so useful, because simply arguing with people isn't nearly as much fun. wink

What amazes me, is the lack of interest in these instruments (including the Pegasus) here on SZ.

The Wersi forum has all the excitement of "mother's day in an orphanage".

Ian
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#376025 - 11/22/13 08:22 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
124 Offline
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Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 2195
Just on a quick listen to a couple of mp3s on their site, the acoustic guitar's not to my liking - prefer any of the big three's over it. I thought it was almost like an electric piano in places. The realdrums were alright, though. This was on the Wing V2, which appears to be a hefty beast yet looks to be the most 'portable' of the range. They've priced it well enough, though.

Trouble is, though, I think if you turn up at a gig with a Wersi you're immediately labelled as a Klaus Wunderlich or a Reginald Dixon. That's the hole that Wersi has to dig themselves out of if they're to make any dent in the big boys' market. Unless I hear more mp3s covering styles that the big three demo in their promos, I remain unconvinced.

Gimme some tight funk to listen to and I'll have a better idea of what the V2 is about.

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#376027 - 11/22/13 08:24 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DonM Offline
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Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Maybe if we had some decent demos, and even a place to SEE one, they might be of more interest. All the demos I recall seeing reminded me of a Lowery Genie.
Of course I never really searched for any. smile
DonM
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#376033 - 11/22/13 08:55 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Well, I have asked two SZ members who are owners, and they seem a bit reluctant to post anything here...I've even asked if they could send it to me privately, but no luck.

Certainly the on-line demos I have found aren't really convincing...even the the one we aren't supposed to ask the price of is not what I call a knock-out-of-the-park.

Ian
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#376034 - 11/22/13 09:04 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
spalding1968 Offline
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Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
That's really the problem right there. Wersi talk a great game. But the execution is lamentable . That demo was of no assistance to people understanding the power of that keyboard no matter what the price. All the sounds sounded electronic even the styles which were meant to replicate acoustic instruments sounded electronic. It's a tough sell when you are being encouraged to believe this is the arranger of the future when it sounds so much like the arranger of the past

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#376036 - 11/22/13 09:12 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Dnj Offline
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Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43692
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Wersi is obviously doing something correct as they are still in business & people are buying their products?
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#376038 - 11/22/13 09:29 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DonM Offline
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Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
I guess they are in business, but only after folding a couple of times. I hope they do well. Competition is always good, especially from an innovative line such as Wersi.
DonM
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#376039 - 11/22/13 09:37 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DonM Offline
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Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
I see there was a demo posted about the same time I complained of no demos.
In my opinion, what he did sounded o.k. Nothing to make me really want to buy one, although I'm sure it was a short demo, and not all-inclusive by any means.
Not sure why I'm commenting because I'm not in the market, but it is raining and cold so no golf today!
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#376044 - 11/22/13 10:43 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Dnj]
Bachus Offline
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Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: Dnj
Wersi is obviously doing something correct as they are still in business & people are buying their products?


The company went bankrupt 3 times in the last 30 years, the products and the tachnollogy however survived.
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#376045 - 11/22/13 10:51 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: ianmcnll]
Bachus Offline
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Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
Well, I have asked two SZ members who are owners, and they seem a bit reluctant to post anything here...I've even asked if they could send it to me privately, but no luck.

Certainly the on-line demos I have found aren't really convincing...even the the one we aren't supposed to ask the price of is not what I call a knock-out-of-the-park.

Ian


Strange since the big Wersi instruments can run vsts you can technically make it sound devine with the right vsts.

But when you talk about the default styles they are not any better then T4 or Pa3x...

90% of Wersi players only use the out of the box stuff, they buy wersi for the lovely organ sounds and styles are mostly seccondary. The 3 wersi players i personally know play lefthand/ righthand / peddals... With mostly drums as accompaniment.

Wersi is mostly organ and seccondary arranger
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#376047 - 11/22/13 11:08 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
tony mads usa Offline
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Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
If only technics would get back into the AK business ... frown mad
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#376050 - 11/22/13 12:06 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Again, it's the "perceived value" that buyers see in Wersi, just as the respective buyers in Yamaha Tyros, Korg PA, and Ketron Audya...it's just that people naturally have different ideas of what perceived value means to them.

For some, it's owning a Wersi, with all the bells and whistles and lights, and being able to add them at will, and also, a certain "exclusivity" in ownership.

Yes, they are no doubt stunning values in some people's eyes, though I think the market is rather small...of course, that just adds to the "exclusivity" factor.

It would be nice to get a realistic demo played by one of our own resident SZ'ers who has tweaked and added to his Wersi, and would be only too glad (and rightly proud) to let the rest of us hear what he hears that impressed him so much to invest in the instrument.

Ian
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#376053 - 11/22/13 12:27 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: tony mads usa]
Bachus Offline
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Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: tony mads usa
If only technics would get back into the AK business ... frown mad


Sweet dreams are those...

It feels however that with technics all innovation left the arranger market.
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#376057 - 11/22/13 01:20 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Dnj Offline
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Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43692
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Bachus
Originally Posted By: tony mads usa
If only technics would get back into the AK business ... frown mad


Sweet dreams are those...

It feels however that with technics all innovation left the arranger market.


but aren't many iof the design engineers from technics working at other companies making KB's confused1
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#376067 - 11/22/13 02:11 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: abacus]
Bachus Offline
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Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: abacus
Now the Wersi name is under professional ownership (Music Store) they are starting to get the open system back on track, with the New Sonic having pretty much everything anybody could wish for, and in standard mode can still be used effectively by the OOTB (Easy Play) users out there, however switch to Expert mode and it effectively becomes a Workstation. (According to the details published so far all he sounds and styles for it have been done by professional musicians, programmers and style designers, which is something Wersi could never afford when it was on its own)
Full details here

As to whether the Sonic will filter down into just a keyboard (Which without its organ incumbents should theoretically be able to be produced for a similar price as a TOTL Arranger) is unknown at present, however I would be surprised if they didnt. (Fingers crossed)

The Pegasus Wing was designed to compete with the Easy Play Arranger market, (Press a button and everything is done for you) which it does well (Its also way cheaper than the TOTL Arrangers from Ketron, Yamaha etc.) and still retains the full upgradability of the OAS system. (If demand was proved there is no reason all the professional features couldnt be added to it)

The current organ system (Introduced in 2000) is also still going with continual improvements. (Unlike the old days when features were added whether they were needed or not, Music Store makes sure the update gives a much improved experience)

Bill


Actually the sonic is a great instrument.... Sadly it proves also that oas isnt as open as we want it to be, still you can only use 4 vsts...
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#376068 - 11/22/13 02:37 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
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Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Bachus

If you look at the final specification of the Sonic here you will find as well as getting a 13" screen, it can run 16 VSTi & Effects simultaneously. (although I would assume only in expert mode, with the 4 limitation being for the less experienced users)

Bill
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#376070 - 11/22/13 02:54 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: ianmcnll]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
Again, it's the "perceived value" that buyers see in Wersi, just as the respective buyers in Yamaha Tyros, Korg PA, and Ketron Audya...it's just that people naturally have different ideas of what perceived value means to them.

For some, it's owning a Wersi, with all the bells and whistles and lights, and being able to add them at will, and also, a certain "exclusivity" in ownership.

Yes, they are no doubt stunning values in some people's eyes, though I think the market is rather small...of course, that just adds to the "exclusivity" factor.

It would be nice to get a realistic demo played by one of our own resident SZ'ers who has tweaked and added to his Wersi, and would be only too glad (and rightly proud) to let the rest of us hear what he hears that impressed him so much to invest in the instrument.

Ian


Although I started off with organs in the late 70s, by the late 80s technology of all keyboards were moving too slow for me, so I moved over to a total computer based system which was way in advance of any keyboard on the market, (And they still are) and only moved back to an all in one unit when an instrument came out that allowed me to use computer software on-board. (This is the reason no keyboard released so far (Except the Kronos which is effectively a pre-set VSTi player) has had even the slightest wow factor for me, as there is just nothing new in them that hasnt been out for years in the pro world)

But then thats just me, and I can understand how those that have not used computer based systems would be impressed by the new arranger keyboard that manufactures release.

Bill
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#376073 - 11/22/13 03:31 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I can understand how someone could be impressed with a total computer based system...and, I can also understand why some would use them, but if you are so impressed by the system you are using, why won't you share it with SZ.

It's like telling us you have a Ferrari, but you won't take your friends for a drive so they can experience it firsthand, and also share in your joy.

But, all we get is Wersi's specifications, features, and how it beats everything else, but we never hear the results of how you use it in your music...just why you do.

I always believed the "Wow!" factor was in how the instrument's features and sounds are used by the player in his music productions...specs can only tell us what the keyboard can allegedly do....the music the owner/player creates on it will tell us what it can actually do.

So far we haven't heard either your or Ensnareyou's Abacus do anything remotely approaching what's been posted here by Korg PA3X, Yamaha Tyros5, or Ketron Audya arrangers, so don't be offended if we are a tad skeptical.


Ian
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#376089 - 11/22/13 06:43 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Dnj]
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
Originally Posted By: Dnj
Originally Posted By: Bachus
Originally Posted By: tony mads usa
If only technics would get back into the AK business ... frown mad

Sweet dreams are those...
It feels however that with technics all innovation left the arranger market.

but aren't many of the design engineers from technics working at other companies making KB's confused1


That may be true, Donny, and they may be responsible for what we see in today's KBs ... but I would think that patents prevent them from DUPLICATING some of the innovations of technics ...
I know I've said this several times before, but down through the years I would get a kick out of reading posts where the writer is wishing his/her KB had a certain feature and thinking - gee, my kn6000 has that ...


Edited by tony mads usa (11/22/13 06:43 PM)
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#376091 - 11/22/13 06:55 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Bachus,

The Sonic as Bill states is not limited to 4 VST's, it can do 16. Wersi's "Plug In Host" was setup so the average user could easily install and use four of their favorite VST's. Once installed, the system sees them as native. You simply place presets on any program keys/buttons you specify or scroll through the sounds as a set list. It's quite simple really.

You can load more than 4 VST's in the Abacus, Louvre, Verona, etc., but doing so requires you to load and run them from a different host rather than Wersi's built in host. This is more tricky to set up but not difficult for those saavy with computer based VST programs.

As with any VST based system, how many you can utilize at once is based upon CPU power and RAM. Programs like Omnishpere are memory and CPU hogs and can tax any high end system quickly. Don't expect to run multiple channels of Omnishpere, EW Strings, Hollywood Strings, BFD, and other memory intense programs at once. That isn't viable on any computer platform which is why major film composers dedicate a single computer to ine or two VST's. The fact Wersi allows you to integrate these VST's into OAS is a major plus.

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#376092 - 11/22/13 07:03 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Tony,

Technics certainly was cutting edge and I really enjoyed their TOTL products. It was a sad day when they closed up shop. Had they continued, I'm certain they'd have gone to open format.

The color screen, synthesis features, sequencer, real time controls, and expansion cards were fantastic. I had both the KN6000 and KN6500 expanded and loved them. I had planned on getting a KN7000 but after playing it I didn't see significant enough changes to warrant the purchase. I subsequently went with Wersi and have never looked back.

If Technics were to go back into the keyboard/arranger market I'd definitely give their products strong consideration.

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#376094 - 11/22/13 07:16 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: tony mads usa]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: tony mads usa


I know I've said this several times before, but down through the years I would get a kick out of reading posts where the writer is wishing his/her KB had a certain feature and thinking - gee, my kn6000 has that ...


I remember when it was said that Technics was the arranger that other companies looked up to. We had a local Technics dealer who did okay, but he wasn't strong on promoting arrangers as his shop dealt mainly with the Celtic/Scottish music scene, such as fiddles, mandolins, accordions etc.

That was where I first played one, and I remember that it had on-bass chording, and the styles were great, especially the waltzes, which were not too good on the Yamaha at that time.

The styles weren't busy either, but were very musical.

It is a shame Technics have gone...a real shame.

Ian
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#376095 - 11/22/13 07:18 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Bill,


The Kronos was both a step forward as well as a few steps back compared to the Oasys. As a former Oasys owner I truly loved the sound and real time controls of the instrument. What I didn't like was the limited abilities to use it as a full blown workstation as it was touted. I hung around and waited for updates that never came to fruition. Once I saw the writing on the wall I knew Korg was going to pull the plug so I bailed on the Oasys before prices tanked.

It was very sad really. Having owned both the Oasys and Wersi I tried to get Korg to integrate similar features so the Oasys would become a monster. Rather than move forward they decided instead to trickle Oasys features down to lesser instruments to increase sales in lower priced instruments. Whatever the successor of Kronos is I hope its a major step forward. Korg is definitely on the right path.

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#376104 - 11/23/13 03:42 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Ian,

Wersi's specifications aren't what their OAS instruments can "allegedly do", it's what they can actually do. Considering your constant negativity of nearly all brands but your beloved Yamaha, you'd certainly question whether a Ferrari 458 Spider has nearly 600 HP and can go 200 MPH. With that kind of attitude I'm certain even if a mate of yours owned one they'd never offer you a ride.

It behooves you to constantly profess Yamaha as the panacea and other brands inferior simply because you haven't seen or played them all. Still there's no shortage of snide quips, inaccuracies, and baiting from you in an attempt to lessen other brands.

Call me foolish but I'm the type to actually try a product be it an arranger keyboard or a sports car before I can conclude it's not as specified. In some instances specifications can tell a story, such as the Tyros 5 lacking loop and record features for audio styles and a Voice Creator, or a Ferrari 458 being infinitely faster than a VW Beetle. Specifications aren't the end all be all but they are a good basis to make some judgments from.

Most manufacturers, including Yamaha, will usually tout specifications of what a product can do so they can market it to those that want to know and make informed purchase decisions. While not always true, if specifications aren't given about particular features, chances are the product can't or doesn't have those features. The Tyros 5 can't host VST's, doesn't offer 24 Bit 96K recording, doesn't have a large touch screen, doesn't have 16 real drawbars, doesn't support up to 32GB of sample RAM, doesn't offer full synthesis capabilities with real time controls, and can't play audio and sample files from nearly every current file format. If it could, you can be assured Yamaha would have listed that in their specifications and sales brochure.

Why not take the time and make the effort to personally see a particular brand in person before slagging it? If you're unwilling to do so, why not do the prudent thing and zip your mouth shut rather than spew unfounded rhetoric. You'd be doing the Synthzone community a service rather than disservice.

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#376105 - 11/23/13 04:31 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Ensnareyou,

It appears we can surmise by your reply that you aren't going to post anything to show what your Wersi can do.

That is very disappointing.

Thanks anyway.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#376112 - 11/23/13 06:39 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California

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#376115 - 11/23/13 07:24 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: abacus]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: abacus
Hi Bachus

If you look at the final specification of the Sonic here you will find as well as getting a 13" screen, it can run 16 VSTi & Effects simultaneously. (although I would assume only in expert mode, with the 4 limitation being for the less experienced users)

Bill


Thank you for the link, its obvious that they are still improving the oas system. Not only 16 vsts plus effects, but also you can use the vst effects on the standard wersi instruments. And i agree with you that the 13" touchscreen on the sonic just looks devine.

Is it still possible to use any Yamaha style out of the box on OAS?
Does the native sound system have something comaparable to SA2? (because the native soundsystem is what powers the styles, and for an arranger the most important part of sounding good, is its style section, thats what defines an arranger. And to make those styles sound more dynamic and reallive SA2 or DNC sounds or whatever you call it isa requirement these days)

With the vst improvements you can actually have any high quallity sound possible on your Oas instrument. Just wondering how you bind real time controll to the vst settings, can i assign drawbars to vst instrument knobs/parameters or is it only possible to controll them over the screen? Or can i use an external midi device with knobs to directly controll the parameters on the OAS instrument?

I have allways been interested in wersi, but due to its high prices i never got to own one. But if they ever release a new abacus pro with an attachable 2nd keyboard 76 keys.

I actually am happy wersi is making this come back and hoping that music store can give the brand the marketing it needs, because wersi has a huge advantage on all other major brands now its OAS is finally becomming rockstable and extremely user friendly, and still gaining more features.


Edited by Bachus (11/23/13 07:35 AM)
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#376117 - 11/23/13 07:37 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Ensnareyou]
Bachus Offline
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Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
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#376118 - 11/23/13 07:41 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California

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#376121 - 11/23/13 08:14 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Bachus

The full details are still a bit sketchy of what it can do, however if you can do it on a Workstation then you can probably do it on the Sonic in Expert mode.

Each voice can have up to 64 layers and (Not 100% sure on this) 51 different effects that can be combined.

Not known if Yamaha style compatibility has been carried over from OAS 7 and Pegasus Wing.

I believe you can route anything anywhere and customise the screen layout per pre-set. (Dont quote me on this though)

It runs on the latest Windows 8 (64bit) platform.

Hopefully more details will be forthcoming in the near future, including some demos of the finished version, as the sounds of the prototypes are nothing to write home about. (The few that have heard it say the sounds are something else, however as everybody had to sign a non-disclosure agreement we will have to wait and see)

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#376122 - 11/23/13 08:16 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Bachus,

The advantage of a Wersi is being able to set it up and utilize whatever features you want or need and not be stuck with what you don't want. The factory sounds are great but if you want to take it to the ultimate level, load Kontakt, Omnisphere, or East West VST's in and be done with it. You can use an external ccontroller as well as the onboard Wersi controls and touch screen to adjust VST parameters but you'd need to set that up. For some sound options such as organ expansions Wersi has already set these parameters up for you to make it easier.

Personally I rarely use factory styles unless I'm fleshing out a song for the first time. I find most any arranger styles atrocious no matter what manufacturer be it Yamaha, Korg, Roland, etc.. Wersi is no exception.

You can use Yamaha styles directly with OAA but to get the most out of them you'd still want to set up which sounds they'll play back to sound their best. The same would be true if you converted a Korg style to a Yamaha product.

Music Store is making great strides in updating an already spectacular instrument. The Sonic is pushing the limits of what's available today.

I'd love to see Music Store work with NI, Omnisphere, or East West to directly integrate their VST's so they could make it the best OOTB experience anyone has ever heard. There simply isnt any other arranger that can compete with this technology.

Another thing I'd like to see is a fully integrated audio recorder with at least 64 tracks. The integrated recorder they have now is too limited in tracks. I can of course load a program that has more features but a fully integrated system is more beneficial.


Edited by Ensnareyou (11/23/13 08:20 AM)

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#376125 - 11/23/13 08:53 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
This sounds like a wonderful instrument and uses wonderful, ground-breaking technology. I fear its market is really limited to those relative few who will take the time and spend the money to seek it out, then develop it fully to their own needs.
To be really successful on a large scale, Wersi will most likely have to work on the OOTB package so there is more appeal to a vast market of users, not just the technophobes (and I use this term in a complimentary manner!) Then, they will have to find a way to market and distribute it worldwide.
It seems to me there are some similarities to the Ketron situation, where there is an excellent product that reaches a limited segment of the market.
Hope this makes sense. Go Wersi! Keep up the good work! I am past the point of wanting to make this kind of investment of time and money, but the long-term future of arrangers may well be in the balance, as we grey-beards die off and gracefully exit the market.
_________________________
DonM

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#376126 - 11/23/13 09:06 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I've seen these videos already (I am interested, you know? ), but thanks for the effort.

These sound very good, but, not a lot of Wow, I'm afraid, at least to my ears, and considering these are pretty expensive instruments, the "bang for the buck" seems rather low to me as well, but of course, the purpose behind these keyboards is being able to upgrade using software, and maybe hardware too, and therein lies the value.

That is why I requested hearing the personal instruments used by Billy Abacus and Ensnareyou, as I figured they'd have them loaded up with impressive goodies, such as the VST's that were bandied about here, and some great style demonstrations with conversions with styles from the Yamaha Tyros etc.

Look guys, I'm in no way slagging your keyboards, because, firstly, I haven't heard them to be able to give an opinion, and secondly, and, just as important, I always thought it was a good thing for people to be so interested in the instrument you play (and are very proud of) that they are always asking to hear it.

That's a compliment, guys, yet it appears to make you both defensive, although perhaps I am seeing it wrong.

I have even asked to have these Abacus examples, demos or tunes (whatever you want to call them) sent to me privately, in case there is any fear of some kind of unfair or bad comments, especially by the anti-arranger crew...but was simply refused.

Now, I only play a regular old Tyros4 (and formerly a PSR-S910), but I've been very willing to share music I created on them, both privately and on the forums, and believe me, I don't mind one bit if these Abacus instruments you have blow my arrangers into the weeds.

In fact, with all the impressive specs quoted and the VST's you both have loaded in, I'd be disappointed if they didn't.

These Wersi instruments in the videos definitely "look" impressive, but, unfortunately, most people do not hear with their eyes. And, again, the instruments in the videos do sound pretty darn good, but, again, not much that would make me go Wow!

So, keep your music and your instruments to yourselves, if you wish...my sincere apologies if I seemed to be pressuring either of you into uploading something when you didn't want to, or you felt uncomfortable about in any way.

Best wishes, and happy playing,

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#376134 - 11/23/13 10:06 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: DonM]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6662
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By: DonM
To be really successful on a large scale, Wersi will most likely have to work on the OOTB package so there is more appeal to a vast market of users, not just the technophobes (and I use this term in a complimentary manner!)


Don, I'm sure you meant technoPHILES (not technophobes) here or perhaps cyberphiles or geeks smile . BTW, this type of mistake usually comes with advanced age smile smile .

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#376136 - 11/23/13 10:26 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
For sure, technophobes is the opposite of what I meant to say. Thanks!
_________________________
DonM

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#376143 - 11/23/13 11:08 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: cgiles]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: cgiles
Originally Posted By: DonM
To be really successful on a large scale, Wersi will most likely have to work on the OOTB package so there is more appeal to a vast market of users, not just the technophobes (and I use this term in a complimentary manner!)


Don, I'm sure you meant technoPHILES (not technophobes) here or perhaps cyberphiles or geeks smile . BTW, this type of mistake usually comes with advanced age smile smile .

chas


As our experts said, Wersi has 2 modes OOTB mode and PRO mode.

All demos are probably done in PRO mode.

But then i dont see a reason why OOTB mode would sound bad, the sound engine is Hypersonic 2, a top knotch product, a VST sample player also build into Cubase as its base soundsource. It supports everything you ever wanted from a sample player like legato play (Super articulation), It comes standard with 1.5 GB of soundsamples but i doubt if WERSi uses them as i think they want to use their own sample set with the typical Wersi sound.

Anyway, someone showed me today how easy OOTB mode works, and it sounds okay on an updated Abacus, but not spectacular, except for the organ sounds, those are absolutely the best.

Yamaha styles still play out of the box, and sound as good as on an S950, so nothing wrong there, and with a little tweaking it really rocked.


True, i am a technophile first and musician seccondary, but it seems the new OOTB system really is easy to get intoo, if you can handle an android device, you can handle this instrument in the easy OOTB mode.



So i got some answers today... but still got even more questions now...
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Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.

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#376145 - 11/23/13 11:28 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143





This man somehow got his hands on the Wersi software, he build a computer, added a touchscreen, added 2 keyboards (49 + 61) a pedal board and an interface with some push buttons..

Since Wersi uses standard PC hardware these days, he gets the full Wersi sound out of his handcrafted home organ and the results are remarkable..


I did the same once myself with the open source lionstracs software, it aint that hard, and i know several people(online) that use comparable V-arranger systems, but honestly nothing of those sounded like this..


If i can get my hands on the software i might want to run it on my Windows 8 tablet and see if i can controll it from my Kronos. I allready contacted the man that created the video. Lets see what comes from this.
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#376146 - 11/23/13 11:32 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
124 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 2195
DiiKii? Say it ain't so. smile

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#376165 - 11/23/13 02:03 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: 124]
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA


The best use of a Tyros4 I have seen to date..
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#376166 - 11/23/13 02:14 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Don,

The Wersi is already setup OOTB to do what any other arranger can do and more. Their control surface is excellent and the use of the touch screen, knobs, buttons, and sliders makes it very easy to operate. It's what sets Wersi apart from every other manufacturer that has tried to bring a PC based system to the masses. Only Korg came close with the Oasys but Korg castrated the Oasys by not making it open to third party software. Had Korg made the Oasys truly open as originally touted, I'd have kept mine.

The Wersi Sonic is a huge leap forward with OAS. The sheer CPU power under the hood compared to any other keyboard or arranger is staggering. If Music Store updates the sound library with more sounds and integrates additional VST's as stock, it will be a monster synthesizer/arranger/workstation. I can't wait to see the final specs and hear the finished product.

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#376167 - 11/23/13 02:18 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Fran Carango]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43692
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Fran Carango


The best use of a Tyros4 I have seen to date..


Please show me what T5 can do better?
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https://www.facebook.com/groups/2819613151594818

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#376169 - 11/23/13 02:41 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Dnj]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: Dnj
Originally Posted By: Fran Carango


The best use of a Tyros4 I have seen to date..


Please show me what T5 can do better?


Why do you bring up a non open arranger in this topic, arent there currently enough other tyros topics?
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.

http://keyszone.boards.net

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#376170 - 11/23/13 02:44 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Ensnareyou]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: Ensnareyou
Don,

The Wersi is already setup OOTB to do what any other arranger can do and more. Their control surface is excellent and the use of the touch screen, knobs, buttons, and sliders makes it very easy to operate. It's what sets Wersi apart from every other manufacturer that has tried to bring a PC based system to the masses. Only Korg came close with the Oasys but Korg castrated the Oasys by not making it open to third party software. Had Korg made the Oasys truly open as originally touted, I'd have kept mine.

The Wersi Sonic is a huge leap forward with OAS. The sheer CPU power under the hood compared to any other keyboard or arranger is staggering. If Music Store updates the sound library with more sounds and integrates additional VST's as stock, it will be a monster synthesizer/arranger/workstation. I can't wait to see the final specs and hear the finished product.


i heared an abacus today with oas 7.46 which according to the website of wersi is the latest oas.

Are you telling me that the oas of the sonic is a totally new version not available for other oas instruments?
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.

http://keyszone.boards.net

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#376171 - 11/23/13 02:48 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Originally Posted By: Bachus
Originally Posted By: Dnj
Originally Posted By: Fran Carango


The best use of a Tyros4 I have seen to date..


Please show me what T5 can do better?


Why do you bring up a non open arranger in this topic, arent there currently enough other tyros topics?







Sorry, I posted on the wrong topic.. blush
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#376172 - 11/23/13 02:55 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Bachus,

Almost all of the Wersi demo links I posted utilized OOTB sounds in OAS 7. Only some multipad samples, drum sounds, and a few samples played by Robert Bartha seemed to be custom. He's playing a Sonic so it is possible all of the sounds he used are native to the new Sonic. I can identify almost every sound though as stock. I'm sure Bill will concur.

OOTB the Wersi is no slouch. My Abacus Duo Pro has around 1GB of factory sounds. The Sonic will have many more sounds but I'm not sure exactly how many. I'm guessing several Gigabytes or more. Not MB folks, Gigabytes.

My biggest complaints with the Wersi factory sounds are the drums, percussion, and synth sounds. "RealDrum" Audio files are excellent but the stock drum sounds range from ok to good to very good. No worse than what Yamaha offers in their TOTL products. I simply load drum and percussion samples from my Akai library which are fantastic.

The stock synthesizer sounds are excellent but limited in quantity. If you buy the synthesizer package which is around $100 USD, then you'll be set as it not only gives you hundreds of additional sounds, it adds extensive editing and synthesis features to OAS. You'll get expanded FM, Wavetable, Analog Modeling, Sampling, and more. Essentially the synth engines that were native to Sonic Core/Creamware. Give the Sonic Core Minimax, Pro Wave, Profit 5, Vectron and others a listen to understand just how good the synth sounds the Wersi offers are.

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#376173 - 11/23/13 03:00 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Ensnareyou]
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA



Here is a demo of the open arranger MedaStation x-76.
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#376174 - 11/23/13 03:06 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Fran Carango]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43692
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Fran Carango



Here is a demo of the open arranger MedaStation x-76.


James GREAT Job as always!!.. clap clap clap
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#376177 - 11/23/13 03:37 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By: Bachus
Originally Posted By: Ensnareyou
Don,

The Wersi is already setup OOTB to do what any other arranger can do and more. Their control surface is excellent and the use of the touch screen, knobs, buttons, and sliders makes it very easy to operate. It's what sets Wersi apart from every other manufacturer that has tried to bring a PC based system to the masses. Only Korg came close with the Oasys but Korg castrated the Oasys by not making it open to third party software. Had Korg made the Oasys truly open as originally touted, I'd have kept mine.

The Wersi Sonic is a huge leap forward with OAS. The sheer CPU power under the hood compared to any other keyboard or arranger is staggering. If Music Store updates the sound library with more sounds and integrates additional VST's as stock, it will be a monster synthesizer/arranger/workstation. I can't wait to see the final specs and hear the finished product.


i heared an abacus today with oas 7.46 which according to the website of wersi is the latest oas.

Are you telling me that the oas of the sonic is a totally new version not available for other oas instruments?


HI Bachus

The only commonality between the Pegasus Wing OS and OAS7 OS is they can play the same styles, everything else is totally different, that is why options and sound packs for OAS 7 cannot be used directly in the Pegasus Wing (And vice versa) without re-coding to suit the Pegasus Wing OS.

The Sonic again uses a totally new version of OAS which has no connection with OAS7 or the Pegasus Wing OS, apart from being able to play the same styles. (Not sure about Yamaha compatibility though)

The main hardware (Not the computer hardware which is standard PC) of Pegasus Wing, OAS7 and Sonic are also completely different.

Pegasus Wing is an OOTB instrument, and the Sonic in standard mode should be, however OAS7 is not an OOTB experience (Although this is improving with each new update) it just gives you basic setups which you customise yourself. (Exceptions are the option sound and style packs which are set up for OOTB) Its also the reason that Wersi Direct ships its Songbook software (OTS Song settings) with all new OAS7 instruments so that it can be used OOTB by less experienced users.

Hope this clarifies things

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#376178 - 11/23/13 03:47 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Dom had a great concept that sadly he decided to pull the plug on. Where the Mediastation failed was the lack of factory sounds and that the user interface was nowhere near as intuitive as the Wersi or Korg Oasys. I tried to convince Dom to work with a third party VST company to offer an OOTB experience that would have been fantastic. I don't think he wanted to incur the licensing fees to do so. By the time he realized better OOTB sounds and styles were needed, the Mediastation had already been slagged by people who never laid hands on one. That hindered the Mediastations sales and ultimately forced Dom's decision to pull the plug on keyboard manufacturing.

Sonically the Mediastation had more dynamic range than my Oasys and Wersi and that's impressive. It really did sound great playing back Giga files. Fran can attest to this.

I had no problems running the Mediastation but an old codger not familiar with VST's or computer software integration would. Still the interface and software updates needed to make it more intuitive never happened.

Dom is a very smart businessman and if my hunch is correct, he sold the Mediastation concept or licensed it to one of the big three to expand further upon and market. Don't be surprised if you see a similar concept marketed by Roland or Yamaha in the near future that's just the Mediastation enhanced and repackaged. I don't think Korg would have purchased it because they already had the Oasys platform to build upon. The Kronos was born from the Oasys.

Time will tell if the Mediastation sees new life from other companies. Dom certainly couldn't say due to non disclosure agreements. Yamaha has benefitted greatly from visionaries in the past, John Chowning and Dave Smith to name but a few. Nearly every Yamaha product after 1983 utilized technology from these two men.

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#376198 - 11/23/13 05:05 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
I said my piece about soft arrangers a long time ago, and nothing in the intervening years has changed my opinion.

We ALL play arrangers for one primary reason... convenience.

You can do the same thing or better with many different things, WS's, computers, keyboards and modules, etc.. But nothing comes even CLOSE to the instant gratification and ease of use of the modern hardware arranger. The soundsets are balanced, the styles are balanced, the effects are balanced, and it's all wrapped up in a shell that is easy to use and affordable.

Nothing could be further from this than the all software arranger. Yes, if you have the technical and musical skills, you CAN probably end up with something noticeably better sounding than a hardware arranger. But it's going to cost you a FORTUNE, and take up your every waking moment for months, probably years! It's going to involve multiple computers (it has already been alluded to that many of the best sounding soft synths and libraries have CPU requirements that can choke even the best modern CPU's) and a very technical command of programming.

Now, let's be REALISTIC... How many of us have the entire skill-set to pull all of this off? I would hesitate to say ANY of us, from what I have heard, so far. Sure, you get one of Wersi's top demonstrators, probably with considerable technical help from the factory, and he can pull of a demonstration of what you COULD do with one of these wnderkind behemoths with price tags that make the T5 sound like a cheap PSR!

Now, back to reality... How many of US could do that? Sure haven't heard a single USER demo of a Wersi sound remotely as impressive. In fact, most are quite excremental, poorly played and balanced, and certainly not a good representation of what you COULD do if you had $20,000 to drop. Or actually, maybe it IS... Let's face it, if buying a Wersi made you sound that good, the web and this forum would be bursting with demos that put our Roland's and Korg's and Yamaha's to shame.

But it isn't. They don't.

QED.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#376226 - 11/23/13 10:16 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Diki,

You clearly haven't played an OAS7 instrument otherwise you wouldn't have concluded what you have. What separates Wersi from a computer based system running softsynths is the way in which the interface acts like any other arranger or workstation. Yes you can delve deep loading in VST's and third party programs if you want to, but that isn't necessary. Out of the box OAS acts like any other arranger. Wersi spent years working on integrating the control surface, real time controls, and touch screen so that anyone can operate their products. After all, their target audience are the elderly who have lots of expendable cash but aren't technically savvy. If the Wersi were difficult to use, it would be a tough sell at $2k let alone $50k. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of users except here in the USA.

Unlike companies such as Neko, Music Computing, Lionstracs, and others who basically threw a PC into a keyboard case, loaded a few VST's, then marketed the product as an OOTB experience but are so convoluted you'd need an engineering degree to decipher them, Wersi actually thought this through. They've spent years doing research, updating software, and getting real world feedback from users which shows in the end product.

While having a PC running various VST's can sonically outperform any hardware arranger or workstation, they aren't intuitive, take up huge amounts of RAM and CPU power, and will cause the average user to pull their hair out trying to integrate it all. What Wersi has done is provided a happy medium between hardware arranger and full blown PC based arranger/workstation. The Sonic takes OAS to a new level but still keeps certain things reigned in so as to be easy to use. Sonic's Expert mode will allow users to utilize it as if it were a straight computer based PC system but I wouldn't recommend anyone do that unless they're highly skilled with PC's, software integration, and external hardware. As you've ascertained, few people have that capability but it does exist inside the Wersi if they feel so inclined to go that route.

I definitely agree most demos by users are often poorly played, poorly recorded and mixed, and rarely show the true power of the instrument be it hardware based or open architecture. The majority of people who buy TOTL arrangers aren't professionals, they're home hobbyists. I do wish Wersi would make professional quality demos but for some reason they don't seem to care what users across the pond think. I guess the sales here are so low as to be inconsequential to them.

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#376227 - 11/23/13 10:37 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Any instrument be it a guitar, keyboard, violin, or drums are merely a catalyst for the player. I could own a Stradivarius, 55 Stratocaster, 1900's Steinway Grand, and all would be pointless in an attempt to make me sound better if I lacked the skills to play them. Truth be told few people have talent that sets them apart from the masses although our ego's would like us to believe otherwise. Those that do can play a cardboard box and their talent will still shine through. For most others we've been lead to believe that XYZ instrument will be the panacea and make us play as if it were a gift from a higher power. Then reality sets in.

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#376230 - 11/23/13 11:53 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: abacus]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: abacus
Originally Posted By: Bachus
Originally Posted By: Ensnareyou
Don,

The Wersi is already setup OOTB to do what any other arranger can do and more. Their control surface is excellent and the use of the touch screen, knobs, buttons, and sliders makes it very easy to operate. It's what sets Wersi apart from every other manufacturer that has tried to bring a PC based system to the masses. Only Korg came close with the Oasys but Korg castrated the Oasys by not making it open to third party software. Had Korg made the Oasys truly open as originally touted, I'd have kept mine.

The Wersi Sonic is a huge leap forward with OAS. The sheer CPU power under the hood compared to any other keyboard or arranger is staggering. If Music Store updates the sound library with more sounds and integrates additional VST's as stock, it will be a monster synthesizer/arranger/workstation. I can't wait to see the final specs and hear the finished product.


i heared an abacus today with oas 7.46 which according to the website of wersi is the latest oas.

Are you telling me that the oas of the sonic is a totally new version not available for other oas instruments?


HI Bachus

The only commonality between the Pegasus Wing OS and OAS7 OS is they can play the same styles, everything else is totally different, that is why options and sound packs for OAS 7 cannot be used directly in the Pegasus Wing (And vice versa) without re-coding to suit the Pegasus Wing OS.

The Sonic again uses a totally new version of OAS which has no connection with OAS7 or the Pegasus Wing OS, apart from being able to play the same styles. (Not sure about Yamaha compatibility though)

The main hardware (Not the computer hardware which is standard PC) of Pegasus Wing, OAS7 and Sonic are also completely different.

Pegasus Wing is an OOTB instrument, and the Sonic in standard mode should be, however OAS7 is not an OOTB experience (Although this is improving with each new update) it just gives you basic setups which you customise yourself. (Exceptions are the option sound and style packs which are set up for OOTB) Its also the reason that Wersi Direct ships its Songbook software (OTS Song settings) with all new OAS7 instruments so that it can be used OOTB by less experienced users.

Hope this clarifies things

Bill


Okay, i tought the Sonic would be OAS7 compatible... but its got its totally own improved version.

So they took a step away from their main development goal of one OAS allways upgradable for all their instruments.

I was allready happy with what i saw from OAS7.46.. any improvement to that would be a huge step for Wersi.
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#376231 - 11/23/13 11:57 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Diki]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: Diki
I said my piece about soft arrangers a long time ago, and nothing in the intervening years has changed my opinion.

We ALL play arrangers for one primary reason... convenience.

You can do the same thing or better with many different things, WS's, computers, keyboards and modules, etc.. But nothing comes even CLOSE to the instant gratification and ease of use of the modern hardware arranger. The soundsets are balanced, the styles are balanced, the effects are balanced, and it's all wrapped up in a shell that is easy to use and affordable.

Nothing could be further from this than the all software arranger. Yes, if you have the technical and musical skills, you CAN probably end up with something noticeably better sounding than a hardware arranger. But it's going to cost you a FORTUNE, and take up your every waking moment for months, probably years! It's going to involve multiple computers (it has already been alluded to that many of the best sounding soft synths and libraries have CPU requirements that can choke even the best modern CPU's) and a very technical command of programming.

Now, let's be REALISTIC... How many of us have the entire skill-set to pull all of this off? I would hesitate to say ANY of us, from what I have heard, so far. Sure, you get one of Wersi's top demonstrators, probably with considerable technical help from the factory, and he can pull of a demonstration of what you COULD do with one of these wnderkind behemoths with price tags that make the T5 sound like a cheap PSR!

Now, back to reality... How many of US could do that? Sure haven't heard a single USER demo of a Wersi sound remotely as impressive. In fact, most are quite excremental, poorly played and balanced, and certainly not a good representation of what you COULD do if you had $20,000 to drop. Or actually, maybe it IS... Let's face it, if buying a Wersi made you sound that good, the web and this forum would be bursting with demos that put our Roland's and Korg's and Yamaha's to shame.

But it isn't. They don't.

QED.


I agree and disagree with you..

Yes we want convenience.
No we dont want to be limmited in our possibilities..

So if the top layer of the user interface is very convenient and all you would ever need to play conveniently, what would be wrong with dozens of deep layers to give pros more controll..


I think thats exactly what Wersi is trying to do with their new OS..

convenience at top, and flexibility and expendabillity the deeper you go intoo the instrument.. But my grandpa would still be happy playing the top convenient top layer, while my son would be tweakeing and edditiing every single bit of his setup all on the same instrument.




and sounding good or awesome is all a matter of player skills, if you are a true musician you cant sound less then stellar on the current generation of TOTL arrangers.


Edited by Bachus (11/23/13 11:59 PM)
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#376241 - 11/24/13 04:11 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Bachus

Yes, Sonic is a new generation of OAS; however OAS7 and the Pegasus Wing will continue to be developed into the future. (R47 for OAS7 should be out anytime soon, and the latest Pegasus Wing update came about 2 weeks ago)

Bill
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#376248 - 11/24/13 04:56 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: abacus]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: abacus
Hi Bachus

Yes, Sonic is a new generation of OAS; however OAS7 and the Pegasus Wing will continue to be developed into the future. (R47 for OAS7 should be out anytime soon, and the latest Pegasus Wing update came about 2 weeks ago)

Bill

Didnt know about OAS7 R47, but saw the Pegasus wing update, and i even beleive with Version 2 there is a hardware updated version too..

But having 3 sepperate versions to develope might be more expensive and requiring more resources then just a single one. so there might be less frequent updates, but with software being flexible things will transfer from one version to another with pretty less effort. So the updates might be bigger.


I suppose the Sonic is running under windows 8? would be awesome for the very well integrate touch support under Windows 8.
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#376266 - 11/24/13 08:04 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
HI Bachus

It does indeed run Windows 8, and the screen is multi-touch so that you can use it just like a tablet. (No need to buy a separate iPad/Tablet)

You are correct about the frequency of the updates.

The main hardware change between V1 & V2 was that the power supply was bought on-board, rather than a separate power block, (There were also a few minor alterations to the other hardware) however all the updates operate exactly the same. (You can go from basic V1 to the latest V2 R03 by just downloading the latest software and loading it in)

Bill
_________________________
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#376359 - 11/25/13 07:50 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: abacus]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: abacus
HI Bachus

It does indeed run Windows 8, and the screen is multi-touch so that you can use it just like a tablet. (No need to buy a separate iPad/Tablet)

You are correct about the frequency of the updates.

The main hardware change between V1 & V2 was that the power supply was bought on-board, rather than a separate power block, (There were also a few minor alterations to the other hardware) however all the updates operate exactly the same. (You can go from basic V1 to the latest V2 R03 by just downloading the latest software and loading it in)

Bill


There is another thing worrying me, the Wersi Sonic was released in Oktober 2012 on the Okay Tastenfestival, its for sale everywhere, yet it seems its still not available and people are still wayting on delivery..

I tried to find out and could not really find someone that got his Sonic delivered.
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#376363 - 11/25/13 09:27 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
HI Bachus

It was showcased, not released at the Tatenfestival, as it was not ready for general release, (Hence it still shows yellow traffic lights on the Music Store Website) however production of the finished version has now started (So the information goes) so it should be seen in the wilds in the not too distant future.

Hope this helps

Bill
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#376365 - 11/25/13 09:34 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Bachus,

Welcome to the world of high end boutique instruments. Most manufacturers will announce a product, take preorders, yet not do a production run until enough units are pre sold. In some instances if enough orders aren't received, it goes into a holding pattern or never comes to fruition. I don't think that's the case with the Sonic. Music Store seems quite solvent and they've spent countless hours on R&D for the Sonic. I think they're just trying to get it all ironed out rather than put it on the market prematurely.

Many companies release products to market early to try and recover R&D costs and use the consumer as a beta tester. Unbeknownst to the consumer of course. Wersi generally doesn't release software or products until the platform is quite solid. Given their target consumer are elderly buyers who aren't tech savvy, using them as beta testers would be detrimental to sales. Wersi chooses to error on the side of caution and hold back software releases until they are near bug free which I commend them on.

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#376379 - 11/25/13 02:01 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
I tried to convince Dom to work with a third party VST company to offer an OOTB experience that would have been fantastic. I don't think he wanted to incur the licensing fees to do so. By the time he realized better OOTB sounds and styles were needed, the Mediastation had already been slagged by people who never laid hands on one. That hindered the Mediastations sales and ultimately forced Dom's decision to pull the plug on keyboard manufacturing.


Even with a complete set of sounds and styles it would have made no difference. Lionstracs should have never build an OPEN Arranger. The market for such a product is far too small to make a business of, and as an Arranger most Workstation users would not look at it.

They should have build a workstation from day one with only the necessary buttons a workstation needs.

The Groove X-R rack unit should have been a major success but unfortunately, events took place that made that impossible to proceed. Same really because that did come with a complete sound set and great out of the box experience.

On the topic of Open Arrangers, that vArranger2 software looks very interesting but it needs it's own complete sound set to give it clear independence away from having to use sound modules.

Regards
James


Edited by Irishacts (11/25/13 02:02 PM)

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#376383 - 11/25/13 03:20 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
James,

The Mediastation was a viable product as a workstation and arranger, it's downfall was in the execution. You can't market it as an arranger if you don't supply enough styles and sounds to make most people happy. The average arranger person doesn't do much in the line of programming which is why Yamaha is so successful. They ship their products with enough styles and soumds to keep the average user happy. Dom thought the open architecture would be enough to offer the arranger and workstation user OOTB then they could expand upon the platform themselves. The error in that thinking was that all but a few delve deeply into their arranger or workstation. That left a small percentage of people like yourself and I who would and could use it to our advantage.

Wersi learned long ago that in order to sell a $5k+ instrument to a demographic consisting of mostly the geriatric who aren't technically savvy, they needed an interface that would be so seemless anyone could operate the instrument. The Mediastation had a broad learning curve and many of the features weren't finished by the time Dom released it. In fact it took several years before they came to fruition. By that time the Mediastation's user interface still wasn't intuitive enough to make it easy for the masses. Dom certainly could have rectified the issues with additional updates and a sound/style library, but that would have added to the cost of the instrument. With sales low, rather than pump additiinal money into the Mediastation, he pulled the plug.

By the time the Groove concept was about to go full scale, the bad press on the forums had all but killed the sales. I'm surprised Dom stuck it out as long as he did. He really did believe in the product and rightfully so. In 5 years time, I'm certain open architecture instruments will be widely available from the big three.

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#376392 - 11/25/13 05:08 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Ensnareyou]
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
My basic system consist of:

Windows 7.
vArranger.
Abeleton Live includes effects (replaces forte as host).
Kontakt 5 Sampler for Main or Right Hand Sounds.

Auto Accompaniment Wavetables (GM, GS, XG, etc.):

Halion Sonic 1.6
Bandstand
VI.One
Colossus
Soundfonts (SGM 2.01, Papelmedia 2006 and many more soundfonts)
Live-Styler (Many GIGA & Soundfonts)

Main or Right Hand Voices:

Grritan (Personal Orchestra, Jazz & Big Band & Orch. Strings)
VI.One
Quantum Leap (Colossus & Brass)
Kontakt 5, Experience & B4II
VRSound (Alto & Tenor Sax & 3D Pipes - Organ)
Bardstown (Piano, Banjo, Guitar, Accordion, Clarinet, etc.)
Cool Vibes by Art Vista
Scarbee Bass
Whole Lotta Country by Larry Campbell
And Others

Antares Harmony Engine EVO (Works well with Abeleton Live but not with Brainspawn's forte.).


i7 Intell Processor
8GB RAM
7200 rpm Hard Drives
M-Audio 1010LT Soundcard

This system works well with my Roland A37 controller keyboard:

You can use the lowest octave for changing variations, fills, etc. Alternatively you can progam all the buttons on the PC keyboard to perform all the arranger controls you want.

There is no noticable delay in playing the notes or changing sounds for both the auto accompaniment (Wavetable is fully loaded or each wave is partially loaded) or the main (right hand voices which are loaded in Kontakt/Abeleton Live-switching channels changes voices, etc.). Now you may from time to time changes all your right hand voices to better suit what your playing say from jazz to country....keep in mind you can load many, many, many, many sounds since it only loads part of each wave within each sound.

I have covered the above in the Software Arranger Forum but I thought you may find this useful here as well.

Frank

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#376408 - 11/25/13 09:52 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Frank L. Rosenthal]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Good to see you are still with the software arrangers Frank..


personally i moved away from them about a year ago, when i got a chance to buy an Audya rack at a nice price... I require the OOTB style functionally above the flexibillity of a softarranger. Styles are for when i want to quickly try out something new.

However still using Ableton live, and Cubase with my VSt collection and an akai MPC studio, running everyting on a Windows 8 pro tablet.


My setup is however to big to my likeing..

Kronos
V-Synth GT2
Audya 4 rack
Akai MPC studio
Tablet with the above software.

I would really love to get back to an all in one solution with 2 manualls (no peddals) and most of the above functionallity. and that could be done with an open arranger with good OOTB functionallity, which leaves only one solution these days. Wersi


Edited by Bachus (11/25/13 09:53 PM)
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#376413 - 11/26/13 02:06 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Bachus,

The only option to even attempt replacing all that gear in an all in one solution is the Wersi Sonic. A Verona, Abacus, or Louvre will almost get you there but to run more than 4 VST's at once, you'd have to forego the Wersi VST host which I don't recommend.

I've never thought of upgrading until I saw the specs on the Sonic. That might get me to move up from OAS7. I won't know for sure until I hear and see more of the Sonic. Wersi definitely has the edge when it comes to pushing the limits of today's technology.

The only other keyboard I've considered in the past 5 years is the Fairlight CMI30AX. Unfortunately it's on hold right now with no definite date for delivery to market. The FPGA processor the Fairlight utilizes is unrivaled in both processing power and sheer audio quality. If you've never heard the Fairlight CC1 card in person you can't fathom how great it sounds. Truly the pinnacle of digital audio.

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#376427 - 11/26/13 06:27 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Ensnareyou]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: Ensnareyou
Bachus,

The only option to even attempt replacing all that gear in an all in one solution is the Wersi Sonic. A Verona, Abacus, or Louvre will almost get you there but to run more than 4 VST's at once, you'd have to forego the Wersi VST host which I don't recommend.

I've never thought of upgrading until I saw the specs on the Sonic. That might get me to move up from OAS7. I won't know for sure until I hear and see more of the Sonic. Wersi definitely has the edge when it comes to pushing the limits of today's technology.



So much i realised since you guys introduced it to me in this post..

On a side note however, i dont have nothing at all with the pedalboards and would never use them, even worse, they would be in my way. So i would prefer something like the old abacus with just the 2 keyboards but withouth the pedals.

which also makes me wonder if i would be able to use my ableton somewhere on the Sonic (i guess not). Or use other pc connected hardware with the Sonic.

another point is that i dont want to miss my Kronos, its just such an awesome beast. Before i saw the new Sonic, i was thinking of selling the Audya rack and the V-synth and replacing it with a T5... and a huge 30" touchscreen for my PC setup.

Now i am in doubt as usuall, ..
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#376466 - 11/26/13 12:50 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
So, if these Wersi's are so good, why does most of the music I have heard played on them by people OTHER than factory demonstrators sound so bloody awful?

You know, I bet that the vast majority of drivers that bought a Bugatti Veyron aren't capable of driving them safely at the 250mph+ that they are capable of reaching. In fact, check out the googles, and find shot after shot where owners wrote them off at quite modest speeds!

The point being, although it might be POSSIBLE to make great sounding music on a $20k+ Wersi, seems like few actually do... Personally, I think it is the complexity of the VSTi system that is the primary roadblock. It seems, in demo after demo, that users of TOTL all hardware arrangers don't seem to have much problem posting something quite impressive as soon as they get one. Wersi owners?

Crickets chirping.
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#376471 - 11/26/13 01:10 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Diki]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: Diki
So, if these Wersi's are so good, why does most of the music I have heard played on them by people OTHER than factory demonstrators sound so bloody awful?

You know, I bet that the vast majority of drivers that bought a Bugatti Veyron aren't capable of driving them safely at the 250mph+ that they are capable of reaching. In fact, check out the googles, and find shot after shot where owners wrote them off at quite modest speeds!

The point being, although it might be POSSIBLE to make great sounding music on a $20k+ Wersi, seems like few actually do... Personally, I think it is the complexity of the VSTi system that is the primary roadblock. It seems, in demo after demo, that users of TOTL all hardware arrangers don't seem to have much problem posting something quite impressive as soon as they get one. Wersi owners?

Crickets chirping.


There are probably 100 times as many yamaha instruments then Wersi instruments... which means for every 100 yamaha owners posting their music here, there would be one Wersi musician...

Please show me the 100 Yamaha musicians posting their music here on a regular basis?

There are a few good wersi musicians posting on Youtube... but none of them using the Sonic as that one isnt available yet.<
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#376484 - 11/26/13 04:00 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Ya gotta have guts to post anything here! Or be like me and really don't give a poop what pleases some of them smile
The good thing about posting here is that you will usually get at least a couple of honest responses, so you might learn something. Just heaping praise on something that may or may not be worthy doesn't really help.
I've been guilty of doing that sometimes, but normally I won't say anything unless I feel what I say is constructive, or if I think it's really good.
I would much rather be silent than hurt the feelings of someone who took the time and trouble to post his music, which is our passion. Thin line, huh?
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DonM

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#376492 - 11/26/13 05:02 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: DonM]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43692
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: DonM
Ya gotta have guts to post anything here! Or be like me and really don't give a poop what pleases some of them smile
The good thing about posting here is that you will usually get at least a couple of honest responses, so you might learn something. Just heaping praise on something that may or may not be worthy doesn't really help.
I've been guilty of doing that sometimes, but normally I won't say anything unless I feel what I say is constructive, or if I think it's really good.
I would much rather be silent than hurt the feelings of someone who took the time and trouble to post his music, which is our passion. Thin line, huh?


But, there's no shyness about giving opinions of someones performance probably from someone less qualified,
just sayin' rolleyes ...
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#376522 - 11/27/13 08:31 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Diki]
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Diki
So, if these Wersi's are so good, why does most of the music I have heard played on them by people OTHER than factory demonstrators sound so bloody awful?

You know, I bet that the vast majority of drivers that bought a Bugatti Veyron aren't capable of driving them safely at the 250mph+ that they are capable of reaching. In fact, check out the googles, and find shot after shot where owners wrote them off at quite modest speeds!

The point being, although it might be POSSIBLE to make great sounding music on a $20k+ Wersi, seems like few actually do... Personally, I think it is the complexity of the VSTi system that is the primary roadblock. It seems, in demo after demo, that users of TOTL all hardware arrangers don't seem to have much problem posting something quite impressive as soon as they get one. Wersi owners?

Crickets chirping.



Diki,

Most arranger players are merely hobbyists, beginners, or just do it for fun. Few people's playing skills, whether they call themselves pro's or not, is stellar and that's reality.

Contrary to what you state, I find few demo's posted by hardware arranger owners of reasonable quality and no better or worse than any open arranger user demo's. With the exception of those done by professional demonstrators which seem to be of high quality in both playing and audio quality. If I were to base my product buying decisions on the majority of end user demos, I'd be hard pressed to ever purchase those products demonstrated.

For me the power and flexibility of an open arranger is what I want and need. While I agree that computer based arranger software utilizing VST's can be a logistical nightmare to setup and operate, that simply isn't the case in a hardware/software based Wersi. Wersi has taken the use of VST's and made it simple to use with the built in VST host. I've stressed this before but you and others don't seem to grasp this concept. If the Wersi were complicated and didn't do what it was intended to do, I'd ditch it much like I did my 9000 Pro and Korg Oasys. If the Wersi were difficult to use, their primary purchasing demographic (the elderly), wouldn't take well to it.

Whether Bill, Bachus, Frank and I are the few who get and understand the power, versatility, and incredible sound quality of a VST capable system, we're ok with that. For you and others who choose to be so myopic, technology will eventually force itself upon you. Whether you like it or not, open based hardware arrangers and workstations are destined to be the norm one day. For now I'm content to be as you call it, a very capable Veyron driver while others are driving their VW's.

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#376617 - 11/28/13 10:02 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
I am not unaware of the power of VSTi's. Heck, I've been using them for studio production virtually since they came out!

But... Let's be honest here. At one end of the scale are studio producers and musicians, who want the highest sonic results possible, and are not confused or intimidated by considerable complexity. Then, at the other end of the scale, is the vast majority of arranger players, who not only want operational simplicity, but also want to basically hold down a chord with one hand, play a melody with the other, and that's about as far as their musical creativity goes..!

What all this talk about open arrangers fails to really address is how you CAN achieve FAR better results than an arranger IF you can firstly, play your ass off, then have a mastery of the software to bend that to your will. Find me ONE top 40 hit played on an arranger. You can't. The PRIMARY use of an arranger is to give us near-professional sounding backing with next to no effort. The problem really starts when you decide to use gear not really designed to be used in an arranger setting to do the job that gear that is really specialized to do that. IMO, it is just not a good fit.

On the one hand, if you want TRULY pro music, you won't go near an arranger, or at least only use it for the rough. Then you'll replace nearly everything the arranger did (if you even used one in the first place) with real playing and high quality VSTi's. And, after a day or so of programming and playing, you've got ONE tune.

Now, let's look at how the vast majority of people use an arranger. They switch it on, they call up a style, probably hit the OTS, and start playing immediately.

Two more different work-flows cannot be imagined. And the gear that is optimized for each does a terrible job of the other.

Truth is, the only thing I hear that is amazing about some of the Wersi clips is the talent of the presenter. And I am also convinced that, give them a PA3X or a T5, they would amaze equally... Only then they would be amazing on something $20,000 less than the Wersi! I'm sorry, but if you have to pay an extra $15,000+ to sound even slightly better than a TOTL hardware arranger, it is no wonder these things are rarely heard in the hands of talented musicians. They are mostly heard in the untalented hands of extremely rich people with more money than talent, or, if the truth be known, common sense!
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#376622 - 11/28/13 10:32 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Diki]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: Diki


Now, let's look at how the vast majority of people use an arranger. They switch it on, they call up a style, probably hit the OTS, and start playing immediately.



Thats a very shallow statement, yet correct for 90%.....

However the reason i love to toy around with vsts is because they much more allow me to tune and change my mainhandsound in real time trough the use of sliders and knobs... Its the whole synthesizer idea, and it just does not work that well on most arrangers.


It works great however on open arrangers, as vsts can very much be controlled in real time.. For many people espescially arranger players, making music is not about performing for an audience... Its about finding those very relaxing moments while playing music letting them relax from a hard stressfull day at work. And if playing with sounds is part of it. So be it.


Yet it does not require vsts my Kronos also allows me a lot of this freedom, playing my kronos mainsound on top of audya accompaniment is quite nice.


Edited by Bachus (11/28/13 10:34 AM)
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#376657 - 11/28/13 01:49 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Diki

The price is not an issue, as they are all part of the organ range, and if you look at the Orla, Lowrey, Roland, Bohm organs etc. the Wersi are fully price competitive. (Its a different market to the arranger market)
Wersis only true arranger is the Pegasus Wing which has all the easy play features, but more limited controls and features, thus the cost is considerably less than a TOTL Arranger from the Yamaha, Ketron etc.

As I have said many times I ditched organs/arrangers in the late 80s and went over to a full computer based system, (I started using Midi almost as soon as it had come out in the early 80s) and if Wersi (Or another manufacture) had not come out with an instrument that could have the software on-board I would still be using a fully computer based system. (Downsides are that you cannot have it in the lounge without complaints, whereas a Wersi you can have it in the lounge with no complaints)

Bill
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#376679 - 11/28/13 08:18 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Ensnareyou]
dralion Offline
Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 45
Originally Posted By: Ensnareyou
Most arranger players are merely hobbyists, beginners, or just do it for fun. Few people's playing skills, whether they call themselves pro's or not, is stellar and that's reality.


It is probably not difficult for an hobbyist having a $20,000 arranger and other expensive recording gears to make a good demo of the arranger's styles like this one made by Frankieve

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_cw98ardXI

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#376682 - 11/28/13 09:47 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: dralion]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: dralion
Originally Posted By: Ensnareyou
Most arranger players are merely hobbyists, beginners, or just do it for fun. Few people's playing skills, whether they call themselves pro's or not, is stellar and that's reality.


It is probably not difficult for an hobbyist having a $20,000 arranger and other expensive recording gears to make a good demo of the arranger's styles like this one made by Frankieve

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_cw98ardXI


If youare talking about $20.000 instruments from wersi..

They are not arrangers but Organs. There is a huge difference in price between a simple Arranger and a majestic organ..

The Wersi TOTL arranger is much cheeper then a tyros, an Audya or a pa3x, tough admittedly, its not an open arranger, but still a TOTL arranger.
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#376737 - 11/29/13 12:41 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
What is an organ, but two manuals and some pedals? $15,000 MORE, just for that?

Give me a break!

Let us also not forget, you are on an ARRANGER forum. Go off to an organ forum if you want to argue about whether $20,000 is good value for one of those. In the arranger world, it is a very bad joke!

I also think you are being extremely optimistic that 10% of arranger users would appreciate and be able to utilize the full power of an OAS $20,000 'organ'. Me, I'd put it at well under 1%. And, TBH, it appears that not ONE of this 1% ever posts here. Just proud owners too shy about their skills to post anything that supports their arguments. I'm sorry, but if dropping $20,000 doesn't give you results you are willing to put up alongside the numerous user demos of Yamaha's, Korg's and Roland's (not to mention Ketron!), just exactly how good is it?

Maybe Synthzone can start a 'General Furniture Forum' for those that think $15,000 extra is worth it for something a hair less ugly than a T5? LOL
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#376757 - 11/29/13 02:22 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Diki]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: Diki
What is an organ, but two manuals and some pedals? $15,000 MORE, just for that?

Give me a break!

Let us also not forget, you are on an ARRANGER forum. Go off to an organ forum if you want to argue about whether $20,000 is good value for one of those. In the arranger world, it is a very bad joke!

I also think you are being extremely optimistic that 10% of arranger users would appreciate and be able to utilize the full power of an OAS $20,000 'organ'. Me, I'd put it at well under 1%. And, TBH, it appears that not ONE of this 1% ever posts here. Just proud owners too shy about their skills to post anything that supports their arguments. I'm sorry, but if dropping $20,000 doesn't give you results you are willing to put up alongside the numerous user demos of Yamaha's, Korg's and Roland's (not to mention Ketron!), just exactly how good is it?

Maybe Synthzone can start a 'General Furniture Forum' for those that think $15,000 extra is worth it for something a hair less ugly than a T5? LOL


If you would have read all posts, you would have known why organs are so much more expensive to produce... I.e. Not being able to produce them at a factory line..

Sad thing however that it indeed is the same technollogy as in the much cheeper production line total arrangers. Same goes for top of the line digital pianos, same technollogy, and even for synth workstations..
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#376830 - 11/30/13 01:04 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Don't see any reason this is a sad thing!

I'm pretty sure, you want some fancy furniture for your living room, buy a T5 or another TOTL arranger, a lower MIDI keyboard and a set of pedals, and then give $15,000 to a furniture maker. He'd be only TOO happy to make you something pretty!
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#376969 - 12/02/13 12:43 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
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Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
Adding VSTi to vArranger now smile
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#376973 - 12/02/13 01:53 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
adimatis Offline
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Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1159
Loc: Oradea, RO
I'll tell you something:

If the implementation of VSTi will be comprehensive and will cover as many as the options is possible (even centered it around one particular VSTi) this could really bring the new era in arranger world! It's not gonna be able to compete right immediately with TOTL arrangers, but it will come.

I see it like that at least - I wish a could have a software arranger that will play my favourite style with my favourite sounds!

So, keep up the good work!

Adi
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#376998 - 12/02/13 01:15 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: adimatis]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: adimatis
I'll tell you something:

If the implementation of VSTi will be comprehensive and will cover as many as the options is possible (even centered it around one particular VSTi) this could really bring the new era in arranger world! It's not gonna be able to compete right immediately with TOTL arrangers, but it will come.

I see it like that at least - I wish a could have a software arranger that will play my favourite style with my favourite sounds!

So, keep up the good work!

Adi
if they build an arranger around NI komplete 9, with an open interface to program your own styles, then it could work...
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#377047 - 12/03/13 12:05 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Something I've never seen a discussion of, when it comes to VSTi use with an arranger is, how well do they implement the codes that arrangers use to 'bend' or 'snap' old notes to new ones when you play a chord a tiny fraction late...

Let me explain...

If you've ever looked at the MIDI event code of an arranger 'capture', you'll often see a lot of codes that turn on portamento to time=0, then make the original note a tiny, short one and replace it with the correct note, which the original gets bent, or 'snapped' to. In other words, if you are playing a G chord, then ask for a C chord just a TINY fraction of a beat late, on the 'one' of the beat or bar, the notes for that G chord will play, then a few ticks later the notes for the C chord will appear, BUT, there's no re-triggering of the note, so you don't really hear anything much, because it has been portamento'd with a time of zero to the new note, so the envelopes don't retrigger.

Now, those of you using VSTi's with arrangers... how well does it deal with this, or does it ignore all that kind of stuff and stutter around a bit?

There's a lot going on under the hood with arrangers to help it mitigate our less than perfect playing. But when you use VSTi's, do they do the same thing?
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#377054 - 12/03/13 01:03 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Diki]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: Diki
Something I've never seen a discussion of, when it comes to VSTi use with an arranger is, how well do they implement the codes that arrangers use to 'bend' or 'snap' old notes to new ones when you play a chord a tiny fraction late...

Let me explain...

If you've ever looked at the MIDI event code of an arranger 'capture', you'll often see a lot of codes that turn on portamento to time=0, then make the original note a tiny, short one and replace it with the correct note, which the original gets bent, or 'snapped' to. In other words, if you are playing a G chord, then ask for a C chord just a TINY fraction of a beat late, on the 'one' of the beat or bar, the notes for that G chord will play, then a few ticks later the notes for the C chord will appear, BUT, there's no re-triggering of the note, so you don't really hear anything much, because it has been portamento'd with a time of zero to the new note, so the envelopes don't retrigger.

Now, those of you using VSTi's with arrangers... how well does it deal with this, or does it ignore all that kind of stuff and stutter around a bit?

There's a lot going on under the hood with arrangers to help it mitigate our less than perfect playing. But when you use VSTi's, do they do the same thing?


I think the code for doing that is build intoo the arranger, and not into the soundsource, playing a style and use a style track to trigger an external vst and you will see it still works as if the vst sound was a native sound.

Tough i know from experience that in for example the media station or live-styler this is a severe problem, which you can blame on the arranger code and not the vsts..

Just wondering how Varranger is handling the problem you described?
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#377067 - 12/03/13 02:27 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Diki]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By: Diki
Something I've never seen a discussion of, when it comes to VSTi use with an arranger is, how well do they implement the codes that arrangers use to 'bend' or 'snap' old notes to new ones when you play a chord a tiny fraction late...

Let me explain...

If you've ever looked at the MIDI event code of an arranger 'capture', you'll often see a lot of codes that turn on portamento to time=0, then make the original note a tiny, short one and replace it with the correct note, which the original gets bent, or 'snapped' to. In other words, if you are playing a G chord, then ask for a C chord just a TINY fraction of a beat late, on the 'one' of the beat or bar, the notes for that G chord will play, then a few ticks later the notes for the C chord will appear, BUT, there's no re-triggering of the note, so you don't really hear anything much, because it has been portamento'd with a time of zero to the new note, so the envelopes don't retrigger.

Now, those of you using VSTi's with arrangers... how well does it deal with this, or does it ignore all that kind of stuff and stutter around a bit?

There's a lot going on under the hood with arrangers to help it mitigate our less than perfect playing. But when you use VSTi's, do they do the same thing?


HI Diki

Wersi (And I believe Bohm as well) are just Midi Controller keyboards that are setup as an Organ/Arranger, thus all the work is done by the controller and it does not differentiate whether it is controlling an internal voice, (Which in the case of OAS 7 is actually a VST anyway) VSTi or External Midi Sound, consequentially the issues you mention are not relevant.

Hope this helps

Bill
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#377071 - 12/03/13 03:01 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
The re-triggering depends on the Arranger AND on the sound module capabilities.

Some VST instruments implements this, but some not...
As hardware sound modules


Edited by DAN.2000 (12/03/13 03:02 PM)
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#377072 - 12/03/13 03:08 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: DAN.2000]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: DAN.2000
The re-triggering depends on the Arranger AND on the sound module capabilities.

Some VST instruments implements this, but some not...
As hardware sound modules


Thank you Dan, i knew you where the expert on this....

Which makes me beleive that you Varranger sends the retriggers..

Since you are working hard on implementing vsts in varranger, maybe its a wise idea to have a list with vsts that do and dont support this, as well as list for modules and synths.
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#377095 - 12/04/13 01:11 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
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Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
vArranger doesn't support this yet, but I will do it soon.

The Ketron SD2 does not support this.

I for now have included an intelligent algorithm to do the re-triggering smooth as possible...

Let me know witch VST do you want me to test.

The biggest problem with VST is the midi implementation yes....

Tons of VSTi are working on simply ONE midi channel, so it's not possible to use them on 2 tracks, or you need to load the VSTi 2 times...
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#377098 - 12/04/13 03:50 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Dan

You must only use the Standard Midi codes, (Forget adding any special codes) with all other manipulation being done by the controller itself, (In this instance the arranger section) this is the way both Bohm & Wersi have operated since the 90s and it works without glitches. (Even the SD2 you mention works as sweet as a nut with them)

Hope this helps

Bill
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#377099 - 12/04/13 04:03 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
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Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
As you know, every GM device has an implementation chart at the end, and not all features/controllers are available for every synth

Of course, vArranger try to adapt, and is working almost great with all the GM synth and VST
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#377104 - 12/04/13 07:37 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
adimatis Offline
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Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1159
Loc: Oradea, RO
I am sure these are all different between them in more than one way, but definitely the most interesting will be the multitimbral VSTs.
That's why, I believe the sorts of Kontakt, HalionSonic or Sampletank will be most interesting.
IK's Sampletank 3 is going to be announced in January at NAMM, and it seems there are a lot of improvements and the interest builds up nicely.
Maybe vArranger could be a best match for such a virtual sound module! That will be killer.
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#377105 - 12/04/13 07:56 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: adimatis]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: adimatis
I am sure these are all different between them in more than one way, but definitely the most interesting will be the multitimbral VSTs.
That's why, I believe the sorts of Kontakt, HalionSonic or Sampletank will be most interesting.
IK's Sampletank 3 is going to be announced in January at NAMM, and it seems there are a lot of improvements and the interest builds up nicely.
Maybe vArranger could be a best match for such a virtual sound module! That will be killer.


Those would work great to build a base library for a software Arranger... I am a big fan of Kontakt myself, which works good when i trigger VST sounds from my keyboard. But these are merely advanced sample players

However, to get the true depth of VSTs you should also use some of the more specialised VSts that operate like true virtual instument simulations

But then i never realy use VSTs with my audia styles, i only use them as solo voices to play on top of those styles..


Edited by Bachus (12/04/13 07:57 AM)
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#377655 - 12/10/13 02:47 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
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Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
WAAAAWWWWW I have added the VST support in vArranger. It is amazing. Like openning the door to the world smile
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Dan
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#377679 - 12/10/13 08:31 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi Dan.
Is there a demo version of your software available to download?

Regards
James

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#377686 - 12/10/13 09:32 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
adimatis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1159
Loc: Oradea, RO
Also, please post a video demo with playing the VST...
I am too looking forward a demo version of vArranger!
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#377689 - 12/10/13 09:56 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: adimatis]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
no demo...

I will do a video with VST
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#377690 - 12/10/13 10:13 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
adimatis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1159
Loc: Oradea, RO
Dan, would you say the vArranger would work better with a particular VST (maybe a multitimbral multichannel one) rather than with several different VSTs in the same session? I am mainly thinking of styles' sounds and play-ability.

Thanks,
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#377703 - 12/10/13 11:30 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: DonM]
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Don,

Don't go looking there aren't any, it's like the greater spotted bustard or hens teeth, actually there about ten demos, the hens teeth are far more interesting, you have to laugh
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#377722 - 12/10/13 01:51 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi Dan.
That's a shame there's no demo. I'm interested in this program from a development point of view myself as I have the means to write my own VST's, but without being able to try it, it's hard to make up my mind.

Does it support 64bit VST ?

Regards
James

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#377732 - 12/10/13 02:55 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
For now it's 32 bit only, VST2.4.

vArranger now includes a powerful virtual synth with SoundFonts support + VSTi (still beta)

My way of thinking is to create your sound banks with some SF2 + some VSTi, Load all from the beginning, and not load any new vsti or samples anymore during the session.

If the VST allows to be controlled by midi on 16 channels, and select sounds by program changes, it's perfect !

I don't like to load VST between 2 styles.
I want perfect sound and styles transition.
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Dan
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#377763 - 12/10/13 05:27 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Thanks Dan.

Quote:
My way of thinking is to create your sound banks with some SF2 + some VSTi, Load all from the beginning, and not load any new vsti or samples anymore during the session.


Yes, that would be my ultimate goal too. In the real world of performing, it makes no sense to have to load / unload sounds. Best to have everything available from the beginning.

I didn't know vArranger supported reading of SF2 banks. That's extremely interesting news.

If I were to purchase the program what means of registration / activation is required?

I don't for example purchase software that that ties me into one single PC. I prefer to have the option to install software on more than one PC. For example, my desktop for studio use, and my Tablet for live on stage use, and my laptop for in-between live and studio use.

Regards
James.

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#377789 - 12/10/13 10:08 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: ianmcnll]
Tony Hughes Offline
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Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
Again, it's the "perceived value" that buyers see in Wersi, just as the respective buyers in Yamaha Tyros, Korg PA, and Ketron Audya...it's just that people naturally have different ideas of what perceived value means to them.

For some, it's owning a Wersi, with all the bells and whistles and lights, and being able to add them at will, and also, a certain "exclusivity" in ownership.

Yes, they are no doubt stunning values in some people's eyes, though I think the market is rather small...of course, that just adds to the "exclusivity" factor.

It would be nice to get a realistic demo played by one of our own resident SZ'ers who has tweaked and added to his Wersi, and would be only too glad (and rightly proud) to let the rest of us hear what he hears that impressed him so much to invest in the instrument.

Ian


Hell will freeze over first Ian for a SZ'er to play a demo and to get a decent Wersi I would need to sell the house, the Wing, well best kept secret, I will stick to the manufacture who has the biggest backing, it's plain to see now the Yami have what people want and they know what people want, they covered all the pockets every time.
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#377790 - 12/10/13 10:15 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
James,

Whatever happen to all the Lionstracs MS, twas a great pity,it would have doubled up as a fan heater. Hell I nearly bought one I was only a cats whisker off Dom having my hard earned cash, hey and then I bought an Audya, graveyard comes to mind. Dom had a big pile of MS in boxes about 100 he posted a photo on SZ he must have sold them to someone, there are only two SZ'ers who still have them and not a squeak from them, hell I would have been embarrassed too, still a pity I think I could have been different.
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#377798 - 12/11/13 12:58 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Tony Hughes]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
James, you can put vArranger on a USB key who will work on every computer.
_________________________
Regards,

Dan
https://www.varranger.com

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#377808 - 12/11/13 04:39 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi Tony.

Quote:
James,

Whatever happen to all the Lionstracs MS


Far as I know the Mediastation was discontinued when the Groove Series of keyboards came out, and they never sold in any great numbers just like the Mediastation before it I would imagine.

The X-R (rack unit) never made it to the market at all and only exists as a few prototypes units at this stage. Which is a shame because the prototypes are running a far better OS than the keyboards ever had.

Quote:
twas a great pity,it would have doubled up as a fan heater. Hell I nearly bought one I was only a cats whisker off Dom having my hard earned cash, hey and then I bought an Audya, graveyard comes to mind. Dom had a big pile of MS in boxes about 100 he posted a photo on SZ he must have sold them to someone, there are only two SZ'ers who still have them and not a squeak from them, hell I would have been embarrassed too, still a pity I think I could have been different.


I'm quite sure that anyone who has a Mediastation is most certainly not embarrassed. They are extremely advanced workstations and mighty powerful musical instruments.

The concept behind the keyboards was without doubt a noble one. The problem in my opinion was that there were no musicians and sound designers hired from day one to create content and post professional demo's. Instead we saw a never ending flow of unbelievably armature efforts recorded with a banana instead of a video camera and direct line audio. Dom then spent most of his time defending those than doing what was needed.

If the X-R had of made it to the market, it would have been the first product that came with premium content and was backed by musicians. I believed that this would have been the turning point for Lionstracs but sadly, it wasn't meant to be.

Regards
James

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#377809 - 12/11/13 04:56 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
And all those promises of continuous updates and free upgrades to those poor souls that purchased the media station have all vanished with it . What a waste

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#377810 - 12/11/13 05:04 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: DAN.2000]
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Originally Posted By: DAN.2000
James, you can put vArranger on a USB key who will work on every computer.


Hi Dan.

So it's a portable app ?
No install and no activation ?

Or are you saying it locks itself to that memory stick, meaning I cannot have a backup copy ready to go in the event that my wife decides to wash my trousers without checking my pockets....lol... smile

She's been known to do that from time to time, plus we all loose things and I'd hate to place all my faith in a single memory stick.

Also if it runs off a memory stick, how then is the SF2 data supposed to be stored because a memory stick is far too slow to load a large SF2 bank and certainly too slow to stream samples.

Does it even stream the samples or is all the data loaded to RAM.

Sorry for all the questions but with no demo version to even test, it's very hard to know what I'd even be buying into or how well it even works.

Thanks.
James

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#377812 - 12/11/13 05:11 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: spalding1968]
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Originally Posted By: spalding1968
And all those promises of continuous updates and free upgrades to those poor souls that purchased the media station have all vanished with it . What a waste


True.

What's worst for me is I have an X-6 here I can't even boot up properly because it's running a bloody awful beta version of OS 5.1 which makes the keyboard completely useless.

Whatever about updates, I can't even download and downgrade to a copy of the last stable non beta OS.

My 2 cents, anyone with a working Mediastation, clone your HDD and save an backup somewhere.

Regards
James

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#377815 - 12/11/13 05:39 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
I am one of the SZ guys that still own the MS..It is far from being an embarassment..
The way I use the MS...it works flawlessly and performs better than any other on the market....namely..I use the interface with Native Instruments B4....and a Steinway Giga sample that covers piano as well as any other piano sound.. I also have some go to sounds like Lionstracs sampled saxes, and brass..there are also real drums for drum kits (for laying down tracks)..

The strength of the MS is Combo mode ..sets up 8 individual samples , VST's etc in any configuration with sliders that control the mix...
The media player is as good as it gets...dual player that performs well...

In a nutschell..these are the things I use on the MS...

The weakness is the arranger play that was never developed to compete with ..say a G70...not that the Qarranger could not do a great job...The VST bank of sounds needed to be developed..for arranger styles....and some bugs (quirks) like on other arrangers too..

OS stability was okay in the later releases...and to be honest.. good enough to set up the MS in the future the way you want...Linux is still moving ahead, and all these programs work well with the MS..

The quality keybed and hardware is high quality and durable..key feel one of the best..

Boot up time about a minute...probably better than Korg..

The short comings of the arranger play never bothered me...since I prefer a more limited use of style play than most here..

Resale value doesn't exist...There are not many candidates to buy a MS..It take computer litercy and musicianship to own and operate the MS...at a level that is not found easily on SZ...In fact I don't have a single friend that could handle the MS......Here on SZ, there was Richard,James and Lee....that is a short list..

When you think about how many master their arranger keyboard and use all the features...you can understand why there is no resale mrket for the MS....
I do test the waters to see if there is any interest, but it is so small..It is wiser to continue using the MS in a way that still tops most boards....My Way!!!
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#377816 - 12/11/13 05:46 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Irishacts]
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Originally Posted By: Irishacts
Originally Posted By: spalding1968
And all those promises of continuous updates and free upgrades to those poor souls that purchased the media station have all vanished with it . What a waste


True.

What's worst for me is I have an X-6 here I can't even boot up properly because it's running a bloody awful beta version of OS 5.1 which makes the keyboard completely useless.

Whatever about updates, I can't even download and downgrade to a copy of the last stable non beta OS.

My 2 cents, anyone with a working Mediastation, clone your HDD and save an backup somewhere.

Regards
James




James I had to roll back to a previous OS, I do maintain two Hard drives with different OS's..

OS5..rev 2171-4 and rev 2171-6 are the HD's
_________________________
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#377818 - 12/11/13 06:15 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: spalding1968]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By: spalding1968
And all those promises of continuous updates and free upgrades to those poor souls that purchased the media station have all vanished with it . What a waste


Not as bad as it seems, as providing you have a copy of the keyboards OS (Or a cloned drive) you are good to go now and into the future.

The reason for this is that apart from the keyboard OS, all the rest of the software is by 3rd party companies who made them for computers in general and not just the Media station, thus they are still being updated.

Hardware wise the only stumbling block is the interface board (In-Out) which is specifically for the Media station, the rest is just standard PC hardware which can be picked up from computer parts supplier.

Contrast the above with a hardware arranger as if the manufacture goes out of business your stuffed, and have to hope that nothing goes wrong and you are happy to stay as is. (Just ask Technics & Gem owners)

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#377820 - 12/11/13 06:41 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: abacus]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Like i said, lionstracs is currently making parts for inhouse automation, like switches for garage ports that can be controlled over wifi.. They are out of the music buisness.

Last thing i heared from them was when Dom was in a fight with the owner of Live-styler, who added all the lionstracs mega samples libraries to the live styler withouth giving credit or any money to Dom..

I dont think however Sharps precious sample collection for the XR belonged to the leaked samples. Tough i would not be surprised if part of the XR modules samples are now available in the irishacts EXs products for the Kronos.


I saw a demo of the XR once at the musik messe, sounded good, but somehow it didnt feel reliable, knowing that it never got released, i feel sorry for those musicians that but a lot of effort, time and money in it trying to create something many people eagerly are wayting for.


Edited by Bachus (12/11/13 06:45 AM)
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#377822 - 12/11/13 07:02 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
Hello James,

Yes vArranger is a portable app.
You just need to install a small plugin for the audio features on the computer you will use

You don't need to run vArranger from your USB key. It's better (run faster) to copy the files in your computer hard drive.
Just plug the key on the computer.

Ask to your wife to not loose you usb key, as if it was a diamond smile

By the way, I am here to help my users not to bother too much about activations, but play music.

All the data are loaded into RAM.
For now, I don't like the idea of streaming from hd while giging smile For now, Max 4GB of samples

Feel free to ask any questions

Dan
_________________________
Regards,

Dan
https://www.varranger.com

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#377831 - 12/11/13 07:39 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
Last thing i heared from them was when Dom was in a fight with the owner of Live-styler, who added all the lionstracs mega samples libraries to the live styler withouth giving credit or any money to Dom..


Yes, I heard that too. That was a shocker to be hoenst.

Quote:
I dont think however Sharps precious sample collection for the XR belonged to the leaked samples


Yes, very unlikely. The library I made was only ever installed on the XR, and Live-styler wouldn't have ever received one of those units. I never made anything for the keyboards.

Quote:
Tough i would not be surprised if part of the XR modules samples are now available in the irishacts EXs products for the Kronos.


Yes indeed. Most of the sounds from Exs90 for the KRONOS can be found in the XR.

Quote:
I saw a demo of the XR once at the musik messe, sounded good, but somehow it didnt feel reliable, knowing that it never got released, i feel sorry for those musicians that but a lot of effort, time and money in it trying to create something many people eagerly are wayting for.


What was at Messe was a pretty darn early prototype that wasn't even a fraction of the unit that existed in the final days. The sound library wasn't even fully installed at Messe as it wasn't complete. Most of the front panel buttons and screen did nothing too.

Where in the final days before the project was hauled, the XR was running a OS infinitely better than the keyboards, the sound library was completed, and everything was working. All that was required was one hardware change for a quite PSU, and agreements on project management and structure for future support and development. Sadly, some people don't like being told what to do for their own good though.

Regards
James

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#377833 - 12/11/13 08:04 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: DAN.2000]
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Thanks Dan.

Quote:
Ask to your wife to not loose you usb key, as if it was a diamond


smile lol... No point. I've fished her engagement ring from the bathroom sink plug hole too many times.

Quote:
All the data are loaded into RAM.
For now, I don't like the idea of streaming from hd while giging For now, Max 4GB of samples


Ok, thank you.
That poses a problem for me. If everything must load to RAM, and your software is 32Bit, then it will have a memory address limitation of 3GB.

Thanks for the information. It would simply make more sense for me to send the midi note data to a separate program in this case as I do prefer and trust streaming.

My very tempted. Looks like a great program.

Kind regards
James.

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#377843 - 12/11/13 09:04 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: abacus]
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
So basically Bill are you saying that any media station user can buy any software and integrate it seamlessly on the media station? That was not my understanding and was one of the primary reasons that people went with the media station because they believed that any software integration would be done for them by Dom and released as a free upgrade . Then it turned out that even the software dom had put on the media station would not work as it had been advertised !

And lastly I don't know any gem or technic's customers that bought the keyboard on the promises that the keyboard would be for ever upgraded for free . unfortunately some of the media stations were sold on the specific promise that it would be a guaranteed a lifetime upgrade free from from Dom. At the time I challenged the validity of such a promise. It was dishonest and I called Dom out on this because of his previous behaviour. I also warned other potential business partners not to get involved with Dom because of his duplicity . Unfortunately the sun it was a very costly lesson .....Anyway I will keep this thread clean and step away from the subject . Fran is right that most people could not handle the media station nor any other open arranger unless all the work was done for them and subsequently .


Edited by spalding1968 (12/11/13 09:14 AM)

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#377849 - 12/11/13 09:13 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: spalding1968]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: spalding1968
So basically Bill are you saying that any media station user can buy any software and integrate it seamlessly on the media station? That was not my understanding and was one of the primary reasons that people went with the media station because they believed that any software integration would be done for them by Dom and released as a free upgrade .

And lastly unfortunately some of the media stations were sold on the specific promise that it would be a guaranteed a lifetime upgrade free from from Dom. At the time I challenged the validity of such a promise. It was dishonest and I called Dom out on this because of his previous behaviour. Anyway I will keep this thread clean and step away from the subject.


You can integrate most things yourself if you have advanced Linux knowledge... Tough a lot vsts are still not compatible with Linux even if you have wine..

With mediastation Linux getting older, it will be much harder to add newer vsts, the older it gets the more compatibillity issues with newer software are to be expected..
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#377857 - 12/11/13 09:50 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Thanks James for the MS update, trust you are OK and nice to see you posting.

Tony
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#377867 - 12/11/13 11:12 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
BTW how many open arrangers are there on the market? Obviously discounting MS.

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#377870 - 12/11/13 11:25 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Tony Hughes]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By: Tony Hughes
BTW how many open arrangers are there on the market? Obviously discounting MS.


All in ones, none that I am aware of

Arranger software that can be installed on a laptop or standard computer using a Midi Controller, about 4

Hope this helps

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#377871 - 12/11/13 11:36 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Tony Hughes]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: Tony Hughes
BTW how many open arrangers are there on the market? Obviously discounting MS.


Open arrangers are build around arranger software...

There currently are OMB, live-styler and Varranger.. Most people use mastrrkeyboards in combination with a standard PC, and other midi controllers... But obviously Varranger is kind of moving away from being open by restricting peoples freedom just to prevent them from making mistakes and running intoo stabillity issues.

Actually i dont think there is nothing available that would honor the name open arranger to the fullest
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#377872 - 12/11/13 11:51 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Open arrangers should be an open source project, where hobby sound engineers and hobby hadware specialists and hobby programmers work together in order to create an open arranger ...

Sadly this would require dozens of people to work in teams together... Because creating programs, high quallity sounds and styles from scratch takes an enourmous pile of work.

You could also choose to create an arranger, that has soundsets that can import style files of the current arrangers and has specific soundsets that mirror all of the great arrangers, this could be easier, but it would be less legal, and its what Varranger and live-styler try to accomplish, obviously time has proven that the results are so far less stellar then the prebuilt totl arrangers of the big brands... In the end this will only result in a cheeper way to play arranger but at a lower quallity.


The only true way is by starting from scratch with an arranger that surpasses anything currently on the market in innovative features and sound quallity. Build the arranger software, then build a soundset based for instance on NI complete and start slowly expanding the the spund database with sounds required by the styles.

Have another team create the hardware, as a build it yourself keyboard around pc hardware, big touchscreen a good keybed and a dedicated piece of hardware with controlls..

Would not be a cheep solution, mind that, komplete is $1000, pc hardware, would be another $800 soundcard 300 dedicated keybed and controll hardware $700. Big touchscreen $200. Lets say $3000 , And you can start building from there...


But it could end with the best arranger ever... You could also choose a free sample player instead of komplete, but that would net in a lower starting quallity.


Edited by Bachus (12/11/13 12:12 PM)
_________________________
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#377886 - 12/11/13 02:19 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
James, vArranger can load up to 4GB of samples.
How much sample do you have?
Do you have any demos of your sounds?
_________________________
Regards,

Dan
https://www.varranger.com

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#377892 - 12/11/13 05:42 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: DAN.2000]
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi Dan.

Quote:
James, vArranger can load up to 4GB of samples.
How much sample do you have?


Your right, sorry. The 32bit limit is 4GB. Don't know why but I had 3GB in my head for some reason.

The set I would like to use with vArranger would be in around 16 GB.

Quote:
Do you have any demos of your sounds?


Sure, just head on over to KORG's website. There's two video's there that showcase my work.

https://www.korg.com/Services/kronos_registration/Productoptions.aspx?pd=598#tabsIRISHACTS

Regards
James

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#377915 - 12/12/13 01:56 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
3GB limit is on 32Bit OS
With some options in the 32bit program, it is possible to use up to 4GB on 64 bit OS.

You did nice job with Korg

I am now going to studio to record a true drummer for creating drum kits for vArranger smile
_________________________
Regards,

Dan
https://www.varranger.com

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#377916 - 12/12/13 03:07 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: DAN.2000]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: DAN.2000
3GB limit is on 32Bit OS
With some options in the 32bit program, it is possible to use up to 4GB on 64 bit OS.

You did nice job with Korg

I am now going to studio to record a true drummer for creating drum kits for vArranger smile


Thats true, but there are still some 32 bits VST that perform unstable under a 64 bit windows version. Most however work good these days. And if not you can allways use tools like Jbridge.

But many 32 bits VSTs come with both a 32 bitand a 64 bit dll, and many 64 bit apps likeCubase 64 bit version also handle 32 bit dlls.


Edited by Bachus (12/12/13 03:15 AM)
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#377920 - 12/12/13 04:07 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
And if not you can allways use tools like Jbridge.


The RAM limitation I was talking about was in relation to vArranges ability to load SF2 files. So in this case I would assume Jbridge wouldn't work since it's for VST's, not standalone software.

Regards
James

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#377921 - 12/12/13 05:11 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Irishacts]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: Irishacts
Quote:
And if not you can allways use tools like Jbridge.


The RAM limitation I was talking about was in relation to vArranges ability to load SF2 files. So in this case I would assume Jbridge wouldn't work since it's for VST's, not standalone software.

Regards
James


Thats very true, unless he would use a vst that reads sf2 files, which is not the case.

Anyway, Jbridge has no relation to local SF2 data. My mistake, i was clearly talking about a limitation for vsts.
_________________________
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#377923 - 12/12/13 05:22 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: DAN.2000]
adimatis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1159
Loc: Oradea, RO
Originally Posted By: DAN.2000


I am now going to studio to record a true drummer for creating drum kits for vArranger smile


You're doing sampling now too? wink That is good - I really like what this becomes!
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#377931 - 12/12/13 06:42 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: adimatis]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: adimatis
Originally Posted By: DAN.2000


I am now going to studio to record a true drummer for creating drum kits for vArranger smile


You're doing sampling now too? wink That is good - I really like what this becomes!


Tough its a sad thing, there is no option to testdrive the software, and sadly there is noboddy i know that uses it, and there are no shops to test it out..

As an owner of live-styler that does not live up to what it promisses, i need a real life test to convince me, it functions just like a hardware arranger, things like stabillity, automisation and fluent operation of styles and espescially chord changes are very important for me..

350 euro is not the kind of many i will ever pay for something i have not seen our heared, and i would greatly appreciate it if Dan could make a testversion that either works for a limmited time (prefered) or has limited functionallity


Edited by Bachus (12/12/13 06:46 AM)
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#377974 - 12/12/13 02:13 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
Yes, now that the virtual synth is working very good, I will start to improve every sounds, one by one.

The first one will be the drums.

Recording in studio (sampling) and Creating drumkits is a big challenge for me, but I hope to be able to release a product better than any other today arrangers smile

I am sorry about not creating a test version.
_________________________
Regards,

Dan
https://www.varranger.com

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#377993 - 12/12/13 06:19 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
CONTENT... content.. content!

The Achilles Heel of 'open arrangers' (or one of the biggest!).

Having seen a few of these things sputter and die (along with 'open' WS's), it seems the main reason they don't make it is they can't match the content of the best hardware arrangers. Can't count how many times I've pointed out the obvious... a T5, PA3X, even my little BK-9 is PACKED with great sounds and kits, already balanced and tweaked to match the vast selection of styles designed specifically for THAT sound set.

Open arrangers have always been something of a 'do-it-yourself' project. You get the hardware, the content is primarily up to YOU. Few realize the skill, time and money needed to do this with a software arranger. There is no decent over the counter solution that comes even a BIT close to a TOTL closed arranger. Yes, you get certain specific areas of sound that easily better the majors, but it's when you look at the ENTIRE sound-set and style-set of a TOTL arranger, and you find that it's a major PITA to get your open keyboard even usable.

So far, it seems few of the open makers have had even the resources to get the hardware perfect, let alone the content. And, of course, if EITHER of them is sub-par, people are going to flock to the working solution.

I honestly think we are going to have to wait for the majors to do this (Oasys and Kronos are baby step starts) before a successful 'open' arranger offers a comprehensively better product than closed ones. In the meantime, of course, the closed ones get better and better, to the point where it's tough to justify the complexity of an open system.

Not to mention, rampant piracy still rears its ugly head over the issue. Hard to get anyone to pony up the millions it would cost to do it RIGHT, if, being 'open' also means that it is copyable. The hardware costs a fortune to develop... THEN the software costs a fortune, or is easily copyable, then the sounds themselves will have cracking issues. The only way anyone is going to do all this work is if they expect a reasonable return on their investment of money and especially time.

You've also still got the issue of computer hardware and software moving forwards (in the PC and laptop world) at a pace that the tiny independents can't really afford to keep up with. Newer OS's address far more data than they used to be able, so anything designed on a 32 bit system now has to deal with more and more of the best, newest VSTi's requiring a 64 bit system and OS to run on. A closed system simply works... but the promise of future=proofing and expansion doesn't really play out for very long when everything is tied to hardware and software that evolves faster than the manufacturer can afford to keep up with.

Wersi sort of side-step this issue by firstly being hugely expensive to start with, then requiring quite a lot of money for any significant upgrades that deal with new technology and codes. But they are so boutique, they barely factor into the issue. Dom, I guess, finally started to see some of the things coming to fruition long after I warned him this was coming. He tried to make an open arranger in the price ballpark of the majors, and found out the hard way that it wasn't as easy as he wanted it to be!

The majors don't really have to invent the wheel... they start out with a soundset already developed (for their WS's and the like) then they tweak and add to it. No arranger ever comes out with 100% original, new samples, and it's successor probably only has 10% new content at the most (probably far less). But the open guys had to try to get something done from complete ground zero, or use existing software solutions that fared very poorly in comparison.

I always thought he needed to talk to East-West or one of the major sample players, and cut a deal for a proprietary soundset, and then get all the styles developed for that, but maybe that was more than he could afford. It certainly would have taken a LOT of very unpaid effort. TBH, I've tried quite a few all-in-one VSTis, and NONE of them is balanced and consistent to the degree that an arranger's soundset is. And, I think that's what it is going to take before the 'open' world really takes off.
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#378009 - 12/12/13 10:28 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Haaaaaaaaaaaaaa mad wonder where he'd been, getting up a head of steam crazy in between writing a symphony.

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#378010 - 12/12/13 11:29 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Diki]
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
Completely agree with the points Dikki made .


Edited by spalding1968 (12/12/13 11:30 PM)

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#378011 - 12/12/13 11:39 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
adimatis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1159
Loc: Oradea, RO
All these good points.

But, I think vArranger has a better chance, as it is already came a long way and Dan is actively developing and improving things.

Also, given that all new things start less impressive, of course for now it can not compete with close systems, but time will come. For example, a common one, five years ago there were not tablets - now more than half the gadget people have one. We're talking maybe hundreds of million..... Progress.

I see no reason why software will NOT (LE) take over in arrangers just as it did in so many other areas. A matter of progress. And it will happen. If Dan with vArranger will be among the firsts, I can only be happy for him and encourage him in this direction.

As for sampling - I think this might be a little of extra headache, but by all means, Dan should continue. Or he could indeed contact one of the sound libraries producers (and there are so many, not only NI, IK or alike) and create a great partnership wich will introduce, in a big way, THE software arranger! Why not? It's been done before and it works. (...Most of the times!) It's all a matter of convincing them of the potential - which I believe is there.



Edited by adimatis (12/13/13 12:33 AM)
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#378014 - 12/13/13 12:52 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
Yes I will continue smile
I will inform you about the drums sampling project when it is done.
_________________________
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Dan
https://www.varranger.com

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#378018 - 12/13/13 02:10 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
There are 77 distinct drum kits in my BK-9. Balanced so that, on the whole, you can change any one for any other, and it still sounds good (with the exception of ethnic kits with totally different mapping to GS). This gives the styles an incredible variety, and the user incredible opportunity to change them and make a style his OWN...

What software writer is going to be able to compete with that? Sure, maybe a few basic kits, brushes, sticks, rock, etc., but 77 of them?

There are 1,718 Tones in the BK-9. Now, not ALL of them with different samples, but a huge number are. What software maker is going to have the time and resources to compete with that? We have come so far from the old 128 GM sound set that it is ancient history. Well over ten times as many, now, in an inexpensive arranger.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see anyone with deep enough pockets to make something 'soft' that comes close.
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#378019 - 12/13/13 02:49 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Diki]
Bernie9 Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5485
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
I don't think you have to. Unlike a closed arranger,vArranger has the ability to hot swap a myriad of sources, and will, in time, be of better quality.
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#378020 - 12/13/13 02:52 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
As there is currently no open arrangers made, Dikis comments are moot.

Wersi are not hugely expensive as they cost no more (And in many cases cost less) then other manufactures equivalent products, so dont know why this was bought up. (Also all Wersi updates have always (And continue to be) free)

Consider This
Assume for a moment that the T4 was based on PC software/hardware, now as all the new features on the T5 are just software upgrades, they could have easily have been downloaded into a T4 (For a cost) to make it into a T5, but at a fraction of the cost it takes to trade in a T4 and buy a new T5. (That is the advantage of a computer based software arranger)
NOTE: The above also applies to all the big boys.

Happy (Lighter Wallet) playing

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#378022 - 12/13/13 03:26 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: abacus]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
I will not create 1100 sounds and 77 kits.

I will start with ... drums, bass, piano, epiano, sax, brass, flute...
Not tons, but very good quality.

If all drumkits in roland can be swaped, it's a good thing.
That mean that I only have to do one mapping to be Roland style compatible smile

Most of drumkits use the same sounds, but only changes some snaredrums, etc...
_________________________
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Dan
https://www.varranger.com

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#378023 - 12/13/13 03:31 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: DAN.2000]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: DAN.2000
I will not create 1100 sounds and 77 kits.

I will start with ... drums, bass, piano, epiano, sax, brass, flute...
Not tons, but very good quality.

If all drumkits in roland can be swaped, it's a good thing.
That mean that I only have to do one mapping to be Roland style compatible smile

Most of drumkits use the same sounds, but only changes some snaredrums, etc...


Sounds like a lot of work...

But who is going to spend $400 wihtout having tested the software first?


If you are that confident and putting that much time in what seems to be becoming a great product... give people an opportunity to test and try it. Thats my opinion, which i told several times, but you dont respond to it as if you deem it not important..



Edited by Bachus (12/13/13 03:33 AM)
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#378026 - 12/13/13 03:52 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: DAN.2000]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Originally Posted By: DAN.2000
I will not create 1100 sounds and 77 kits.

I will start with ... drums, bass, piano, epiano, sax, brass, flute...
Not tons, but very good quality.

If all drumkits in roland can be swaped, it's a good thing.
That mean that I only have to do one mapping to be Roland style compatible smile

Most of drumkits use the same sounds, but only changes some snare drums, etc...


Thing is Dan, first things first. You make a software arranger, but no styles. Therefore, you are playing Yamaha, Ketron and whatever else styles that it is compatible with. I don't know if you have spent much time on any of the latest arrangers (although they have been WAY past the GM soundset for over ten years), but these styles don't just use ONE piano, or one bass, or one Rhodes, etc. They have dozens of them, as different as chalk and cheese. What works with one style doesn't work for another.

If you think about it, this is like expecting a 50's Latin band to use the exact same instruments as a 90's rock band! Not just a piano, drums, percussion and bass and guitar, but the SAME piano, bass, drums and guitar. But in reality, they wouldn't have one thing in common. Musical instruments in the real world have evolved over the years. In fact even the lowly Rhodes came in several different varieties, all quite different from each other. Guitarists play Strats, Tele's, Gibson's (Les Paul's and 335's) PRS's and a myriad others, none sounding alike.

I kind of shudder at the thought of an arranger with such a limited palette, even if those few sounds are quite excellent. The idea sounds OK, until you think that, that's ALL you are going to have. To cover everything from 20's jazz to 90's smooth rock, to 21st century electronica... It just can't be done. If it could, don't you think the majors would have only 128 sounds, but they all be GREAT?

The styles are going to call up thousands of different sounds, but you are going to try to play them ALL with the same few?

This is what sank the MS. Be careful navigating the same waters...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#378027 - 12/13/13 03:56 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
Bachus, I did not create a test version, because of piracy problems.
I am not an expert on how to prevent piracy, and I am sorry that many person abort the idea of vArranger because of that.

There is a money back possibility, I can explain the conditions in a private email
_________________________
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Dan
https://www.varranger.com

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#378029 - 12/13/13 04:40 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: DAN.2000]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: DAN.2000
Bachus, I did not create a test version, because of piracy problems.
I am not an expert on how to prevent piracy, and I am sorry that many person abort the idea of vArranger because of that.

There is a money back possibility, I can explain the conditions in a private email


You can solve most of the piracy issue, by creating a sepperate version of Varranger that only has room for 32 instruments, and 8 styles, and allows to connect a single VST.. it would be totally useless for anyone to pirate on, but it would be enough to let people test your software...

I need to think about your money back offer, not a fan of that either, but it is atleast something..



Edited by Bachus (12/13/13 04:41 AM)
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#378030 - 12/13/13 05:42 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Diki]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By: Diki
Originally Posted By: DAN.2000
I will not create 1100 sounds and 77 kits.

I will start with ... drums, bass, piano, epiano, sax, brass, flute...
Not tons, but very good quality.

If all drumkits in roland can be swaped, it's a good thing.
That mean that I only have to do one mapping to be Roland style compatible smile

Most of drumkits use the same sounds, but only changes some snare drums, etc...


Thing is Dan, first things first. You make a software arranger, but no styles. Therefore, you are playing Yamaha, Ketron and whatever else styles that it is compatible with. I don't know if you have spent much time on any of the latest arrangers (although they have been WAY past the GM soundset for over ten years), but these styles don't just use ONE piano, or one bass, or one Rhodes, etc. They have dozens of them, as different as chalk and cheese. What works with one style doesn't work for another.

If you think about it, this is like expecting a 50's Latin band to use the exact same instruments as a 90's rock band! Not just a piano, drums, percussion and bass and guitar, but the SAME piano, bass, drums and guitar. But in reality, they wouldn't have one thing in common. Musical instruments in the real world have evolved over the years. In fact even the lowly Rhodes came in several different varieties, all quite different from each other. Guitarists play Strats, Tele's, Gibson's (Les Paul's and 335's) PRS's and a myriad others, none sounding alike.

I kind of shudder at the thought of an arranger with such a limited palette, even if those few sounds are quite excellent. The idea sounds OK, until you think that, that's ALL you are going to have. To cover everything from 20's jazz to 90's smooth rock, to 21st century electronica... It just can't be done. If it could, don't you think the majors would have only 128 sounds, but they all be GREAT?

The styles are going to call up thousands of different sounds, but you are going to try to play them ALL with the same few?

This is what sank the MS. Be careful navigating the same waters...


I think the appropriate point here is that Dan says he will start with a good quality basic set before moving on to increase the number available.

This is the most sensible way to do things as most voices are variations on others, (A piano is still a piano in all variations) and while it will take time to increase the numbers available they will be guaranteed to be of good quality. (Yes it would be nice to have all 1100 sounds and 77 kits done at the same time but no manufacture has ever done this (Hardware or Software) so best to follow the proven track)

BTW although you may have 1100 sounds and 77 kits available, 99% of users will only use about 10% of them, just like they only use about 10% of the styles available.

Lets face it Diki, you have been asking for the chord sequencer to be returned for over 10 years and only recently have Korg & Roland bought it back, however Dan gave it you in a few weeks, so instead of keep putting obstacles in the way (Just like you did with Dom) work with Dan to make the software the best out there eventually incorporating everything you require. (As I can assure you the Big Boys wont)

Bill
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Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#378031 - 12/13/13 05:48 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43692
Loc: USA
Are there any explicit demos of how the vArranger works in real time all set up with a keyboard....specifically making changes to style, registrations setups, sounds etc... on the fly just as you would do on a gig with an all in one arranger?

thanx
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#378032 - 12/13/13 05:51 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
adimatis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1159
Loc: Oradea, RO
^^^ that.

And I think one good set of drums, sounding very live-acoustic (if it makes sense) will be a great start.
Then, one live-acoustic bass, one live-acoustic piano etc. will soon provide the orchestra you need for playing various styles.

In the end, how many bass guitars a player changes during a concert? One? Two? Definitely, not many set drums got changed.

Does it make sense?
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#378033 - 12/13/13 05:58 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: adimatis]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
I am listening to all of you, even of course Diki:)


I sent my new beta version to one user. Some VST are not working...

However, 30 minutes later, he sent me a sound he did with vArranger and Independance VST

The sound is recorded with the new direct WAV-MP3 recorder included in vArranger

http://ubuntuone.com/3oMY7P2swHOlsB1TsUfk1t
_________________________
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Dan
https://www.varranger.com

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#378034 - 12/13/13 06:03 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
adimatis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1159
Loc: Oradea, RO
Independence is among my favourite VSTs...
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#378035 - 12/13/13 06:07 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
The HiHats sounds a little bit too much

That's why I will start with the drums sampling smile

Not sure it it's a Ketron, Roland or Yamaha style

Still working on Korg, (almost OK for PA80) but started VST

Too much dreams are coming together...
_________________________
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Dan
https://www.varranger.com

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#378036 - 12/13/13 06:24 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Price comparisons for Diki

Tyros 5 (76) 4,190.00
Tyros 5 (61) 3,990.00
Audya (76) 3,599.00
PA3x (76) 3,399.00
Audya (61) 3,298.00
Tyros 4 (61) 3,275.00 Last Known Price
Pa3x (61) 3,199.00
Pegasus Wing (76) 2,790.00
Roland BK9 (76) 1,999.00
Yamaha S950 (61) 1,899.00
Korg PA900 (61) 1,799.00

As you can see Diki, the Wersi is not hugely expensive at all. (Plus it can be upgraded via software, thus you do not have to buy a new keyboard to get the upgrade)

Bill
_________________________
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Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#378041 - 12/13/13 06:51 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi Dan.

Two last questions from me.

1: Can vArranger edit styles?
2: What's the situation with updates, are they free or do you charge for them.

Regards
James

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#378043 - 12/13/13 07:32 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
1- Not yet, but there is some software to convert midifiles with markers to Yamaha/Ketron/Roland/Korg styles

2- Updates are free since 5 years now
_________________________
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Dan
https://www.varranger.com

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#378045 - 12/13/13 07:46 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: DAN.2000]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: DAN.2000
1- Not yet, but there is some software to convert midifiles with markers to Yamaha/Ketron/Roland/Korg styles

2- Updates are free since 5 years now


The free updates is a splendid thing, your only competitor has everyone upgrade for a lot of money to a new version almost 2 times a year ( live styler ) ...
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#378078 - 12/13/13 11:42 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
The Wing is not a full open system, is it? How much is the Abacus Pro, upgraded to run the latest motherboards, and OS?

Let's not pretend that Wersi haven't got hugely expensive arrangers on their books... Sure, include the price of its least capable arranger in with the prices of the majors' MOST expensive, but be honest and put the Abacus in there for some perspective!

My Roland can be upgraded with software too... in fact, it has already had two upgrades, for FREE, that added significant new features that weren't on the original at all, plus it has an expansion capability to virtually double the sample ROM (although they have yet to release anything for it, probably due to those reorganization blues). In many ways, modern 'closed' arrangers aren't nearly as 'closed' as they used to be.

Sure, get a Yamaha and your odds of them adding anything at all to the OS are pretty slim, but everyone else is pretty good at adding stuff at no cost.

I'm afraid the open or closed thing, for me, isn't really a cost issue. It's a functionality issue. Until an open arranger BETTERS a closed arranger on ALL fronts (not just a better piano or drums, but everything better, including choice) it is going to face a hard uphill battle. I don't believe that ONE really great piano is enough. There's a REASON there are at least a half dozen different ones in most TOTL arrangers (most MOTL arrangers, if the truth be told, too!). If one was enough, don't you think the majors would have simply used the entire ROM memory for all the different ones, and made one that was significantly better?

I think you are going to see how, once this comes to fruition, that the sound of one drum kit, one piano, one guitar, bass, whatever, after a short time is going to become boring and make everything sound the same. While the exact opposite is what seems to be the (very well researched) direction the majors are going in.

Once again, you are banging into what Dom had problems with. When the styles you play are written for a Yamaha, with 1,500 sounds and more, with 50 kits or more, playing them all into the same generic soundset is going to result in less than favorable comparison. Then add the Ketron styles, the Roland styles, the Korg styles it may be able to play, and you compound the problem. It isn't just a matter of mapping. It is a question of EQ, of velocity curves and filter curves matching, or how each sound interacts with the others to prevent one from overpowering the other.

Then you are going to have to deal with the issue of a style asking for a sound you haven't got around to, yet... What does it do? Do you create custom templates to call up a different sound that you do have, and how well is that going to work?

For the old legacy styles, from back in the good old GS/GM days, yes, you can probably get away with a smaller basic sound selection, because those styles were WRITTEN for an arranger with a small sound selection..! But throw anything from the last ten years at it, styles written for the thousands of sounds in a modern arranger, it is going to be quite a different story.

I still think your best bet is to collaborate with one of the really big sample houses, license a version of something like Colossus, and then spend forever tweaking it so all the sounds are balanced OOTB. Then MAYBE you've got something that a home user can plug his modern BK style, or T5 style, or PA3X style into and it maybe sound almost as good as the original. Without him having to do hours of tweaking to make it work...

Because, if that's what it is going to take to make it sound better than a closed arranger OOTB, he's never going to adopt it.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#378088 - 12/13/13 12:28 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Youre missing the point Diki, if you help Dan (Instead of placing obstacles in the way) you will get the arranger that you want, it may take a few years (The big boys started out small) but it will be what everybody wants, which is something the big boys will never provide until they get their backside (Butt) kicked.

The Abacus cannot be included as it has not been made for 4 years or more, (It is not a current model) it is also an organ/arranger (Hand built out of Wood and Steel, not on a production line like arrangers) and the price matches its direct competition, (Organs) it was never designed to go head to head with dedicated hardware arrangers, however it does offer the flexibility that users of hardware arrangers can only dream of. (Its not for everybody (Particularly if youre a one button press does everything for kind of person) but for those that want more it is there, or at least it was until it was discontinued)

If you have a 2000 Abacus the upgrade price to the latest hardware and software, including a 10 Touch Screen and a genuine 4 port USB 2 system plus DVD Burner, is less than it is costing users to upgrade from a T4 to a T5. (If the prices on the Yamaha forums are correct)

The latest OAS 7 software is also continuing to be developed, even though the OAS organ system is over 14 Years old. (How many manufactures provide that without forcing you to buy a new keyboard every 3 years or so to stay up to date?)

Dont get me wrong, if a hardware board came out that allowed me to have what I want, at the right price, and was better than what I have, then I would have no qualms in changing, however currently there is nothing on the market that comes close.

Enjoy whatever you play

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#378096 - 12/13/13 03:38 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
I'm not sure you are getting my point, Bill. The IDEA of an open arranger is just fine. But the execution of the parts takes far more skill and patience than most manufacturers AND their customers are willing to find.

It's all well and good to have a software style player, but that is almost the easiest part. The really hard part is the sounds, and the styles that optimize the use of the sounds.

I am sure that simply articulating these issues isn't putting roadblocks in Dan's way unless his business model relies on uninformed customers buying into it unaware of the potential pitfalls!

And, while it may be nice that bringing a ten year old Abacus up to modern specs may only be a thousand or so (presumably what T4 to T5 guys are losing) it still doesn't acknowledge the ten grand or so it cost in the first place! That will pay for a LOT of model upgrades if you trade in one closed arranger for the next one out... Way I figure it, if you went from every Tyros to the next and lost a grand in the process, you'd still have another five more model changes to go through (Tyros10, anyone?!) before you broke even with the TCO of the Abacus. Not to mention the extra thousands you will have needed to get some of the best VSTi's made (not much point buying the world's most expensive arranger, and then putting cheap freeware VSTi's in it, is there? LOL).

NI Complete, $500. ILIO Ocean Way Drums, $1800. BFD2 $300. Spectrasonics Omnisphere $499, Trilian, $279. It's all too easy to blow a huge wad of cash putting the best in these things... and what's the point of them if you DON'T load them with the best?!

I remember when Dom was here, touting the MS, and you were enthusiastic about the idea. I put up the same arguments, and they panned out exactly as I predicted. Maybe I was the 'roadblock' to his success, but TBH, reality vs. optimism was.

Dan will make it or fail despite anything I say here. But reality vs. optimism waits, lurks in the wings for him too.

I hope he succeeds where others have failed, but I'm not betting the farm on it!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#378121 - 12/13/13 06:33 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
trident Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 1457
Loc: Athens, Greece
A little late jumping on the train...

Dan2000,

As I understand it, you need to have a robust and ready sound set to provide your customers with, one that has all the qualities explained here before: Good sound quality, consistency, lots of instruments, editable etc.

One thought, forgive me if I am being naive here, or if you've already done it: Ever questioned Steinberg for Hypersonic 2 engine and sounds? It sounded very very good to my ears some years ago, it had lots of different instruments, was loading very fast and it could operate on 16 channels simultaneusly. It is now for a long time a discontinued product. Maybe you could grab some kind of license for a bargain and build from there, instead of trying to recreate a whole new palette of sounds from scratch?

I remember your very first post here, and I have to congratulate you for coming this far.

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#378129 - 12/13/13 10:04 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: trident]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: trident
A little late jumping on the train...

Dan2000,

As I understand it, you need to have a robust and ready sound set to provide your customers with, one that has all the qualities explained here before: Good sound quality, consistency, lots of instruments, editable etc.

One thought, forgive me if I am being naive here, or if you've already done it: Ever questioned Steinberg for Hypersonic 2 engine and sounds? It sounded very very good to my ears some years ago, it had lots of different instruments, was loading very fast and it could operate on 16 channels simultaneusly. It is now for a long time a discontinued product. Maybe you could grab some kind of license for a bargain and build from there, instead of trying to recreate a whole new palette of sounds from scratch?

I remember your very first post here, and I have to congratulate you for coming this far.


Its what Wersi uses in OAS7 hypersonic 2 engine... For their own sounds. And it was a great product for sure and would still be quite usably... But there are more good products available in the vst world, that would fit Varranger quite well.
_________________________
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#378152 - 12/14/13 04:04 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Diki]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By: Diki
I'm not sure you are getting my point, Bill. The IDEA of an open arranger is just fine. But the execution of the parts takes far more skill and patience than most manufacturers AND their customers are willing to find.

It's all well and good to have a software style player, but that is almost the easiest part. The really hard part is the sounds, and the styles that optimize the use of the sounds.

I am sure that simply articulating these issues isn't putting roadblocks in Dan's way unless his business model relies on uninformed customers buying into it unaware of the potential pitfalls!

And, while it may be nice that bringing a ten year old Abacus up to modern specs may only be a thousand or so (presumably what T4 to T5 guys are losing) it still doesn't acknowledge the ten grand or so it cost in the first place! That will pay for a LOT of model upgrades if you trade in one closed arranger for the next one out... Way I figure it, if you went from every Tyros to the next and lost a grand in the process, you'd still have another five more model changes to go through (Tyros10, anyone?!) before you broke even with the TCO of the Abacus. Not to mention the extra thousands you will have needed to get some of the best VSTi's made (not much point buying the world's most expensive arranger, and then putting cheap freeware VSTi's in it, is there? LOL).

NI Complete, $500. ILIO Ocean Way Drums, $1800. BFD2 $300. Spectrasonics Omnisphere $499, Trilian, $279. It's all too easy to blow a huge wad of cash putting the best in these things... and what's the point of them if you DON'T load them with the best?!

I remember when Dom was here, touting the MS, and you were enthusiastic about the idea. I put up the same arguments, and they panned out exactly as I predicted. Maybe I was the 'roadblock' to his success, but TBH, reality vs. optimism was.

Dan will make it or fail despite anything I say here. But reality vs. optimism waits, lurks in the wings for him too.

I hope he succeeds where others have failed, but I'm not betting the farm on it!


Diki, picking prices out of the sky to try and emphasize a point is always doomed to failure.

Looking back the average price of the TOTL keyboards Tyros, PA1x, G70 and SD1 the Abacus was approximately 1100 more than the average 2500 of the others, so not a great big price gap as you try and make out. (Wersi upgrades have also not been as expensive as you make out)

VSTs do not enter into the equation as they are 3rd party options which anybody can purchase and use. (The Wersi just allows you to use them on-board)

If you just want to moan when the big boys dont give you what you want, thats fine, others however take a more pro-active approach which is also fine, however with your experience it could move Dans project forward at a faster rate and after all, helping each other is what the forum is about.

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#378267 - 12/15/13 01:07 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Sorry, but in fairness, maybe Hypersonic2 impressed back in 2006, when it came out, but it is a LONG way behind most modern arrangers (MOTL, let alone TOTL)...

http://www.wersimusic.com/wersinews_jan2012.pdf

Give me a break! See the $12,400 price for the new Abacus price? Heck, they want $4,900 for a demo/pre-owned one!

Then look at the price list for those VSTi's. It is you that is making stuff up, Bill.

Wasn't the Hypersonic engine and sounds used in the MS? That failed to impress most. Bottom line about these things is, unless you pony up a fortune for the best VSTi's, for starters you are under-utilizing it massively, and the off-the-shelf all-in-one's fail to measure up against even quite modest hardware gear.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#378298 - 12/15/13 02:51 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Diki]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By: Diki
Sorry, but in fairness, maybe Hypersonic2 impressed back in 2006, when it came out, but it is a LONG way behind most modern arrangers (MOTL, let alone TOTL)...

http://www.wersimusic.com/wersinews_jan2012.pdf

Give me a break! See the $12,400 price for the new Abacus price? Heck, they want $4,900 for a demo/pre-owned one!

Then look at the price list for those VSTi's. It is you that is making stuff up, Bill.

Wasn't the Hypersonic engine and sounds used in the MS? That failed to impress most. Bottom line about these things is, unless you pony up a fortune for the best VSTi's, for starters you are under-utilizing it massively, and the off-the-shelf all-in-one's fail to measure up against even quite modest hardware gear.



Diki, the Abacus as I said has not been made since 2009, any you see are just stock that was left and is being sold on. (Before it was discontinued it was around the 8000 mark, which you will find with its features is price competitive with other Single keyboard Organs on the market)

The prices I gave are 100% correct

As far as I am aware Hypersonic was never used on the Mediastation, as it used Giga Samples

The current OAS 7 came out in 2005, so yes it is close on 9 years old, however if you bothered to check what was built in, you would not make such silly statements as you have.

NOTE: I always check facts before posting, or say if I am not sure.

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#378315 - 12/15/13 08:32 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: abacus]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Calling it a single manual organ doesn't make it one. It's a single manual arranger, with some organ features built in. EXACTLY the same as my BK-9. In fact, I'll put my BK-9's Hammond sim head to head with your Wersi any day of the week and twice on Sundays!

8000 pounds sterling is about $13,000. That is an utterly ridiculous amount of money for anything! Especially a single manual arranger with some drawbars stuck on it.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#378340 - 12/16/13 03:49 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Diki]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: Diki
Calling it a single manual organ doesn't make it one. It's a single manual arranger, with some organ features built in. EXACTLY the same as my BK-9. In fact, I'll put my BK-9's Hammond sim head to head with your Wersi any day of the week and twice on Sundays!

8000 pounds sterling is about $13,000. That is an utterly ridiculous amount of money for anything! Especially a single manual arranger with some drawbars stuck on it.


Not true...

the whole Wersi software structure is build for 2 manuals and pedals, and since the Abacus runs the exact same software as the more expensive organs, i would agree with technically calling it a mini organ..

When the Tyros 2 was like 3500 the Abacus in most basic configuration cost about 5000... thats about equall to 1 tyros upgrade..

However, the point is that upgrading both hardware and adding super new cool software features and sounds also costs a lot of money with Wersi..

In the end i think that both ways are just as expensive..



But the abacus is cetainly a lot more then just an arranger keyboard.
_________________________
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#378344 - 12/16/13 05:06 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Diki]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By: Diki
Calling it a single manual organ doesn't make it one. It's a single manual arranger, with some organ features built in. EXACTLY the same as my BK-9. In fact, I'll put my BK-9's Hammond sim head to head with your Wersi any day of the week and twice on Sundays!

8000 pounds sterling is about $13,000. That is an utterly ridiculous amount of money for anything! Especially a single manual arranger with some drawbars stuck on it.


Here is the User Manual for the Abacus. User Manual

As you can see it also covers the Vegas & Verona, all of which are organs with arranger features, not the other way round, therefore the Abacus has to be compared with an organ price not an arranger price (Which will always be significantly cheaper).

OAS 7 Program and OAA manuals can also be downloaded from here which you will see covers all the models in the organ range, including the Abacus.

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#378380 - 12/16/13 01:58 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Easy enough to put a second manual and a set of pedals on any TOTL, or MOTL arranger, and still have a full functioning organ for a fraction of the price of a Wersi, Bill.

But then compare that with an Abacus Duo with pedals, and ask yourself why it is at least $6000 more than that..?

To me, at least, the only reason for a soft arranger is to be able to play non-native styles to whatever you already have. In fact, I think Dan really ought to concentrate on that end of things, make templates that allow the arranger codes from each main arranger manufacturer to control it, and have it as an ADD-ON to someone who already has a decent arranger, but wants to up some up the basic sounds to VSTi's, and play non-native styles without having to jump through hoops.

But you are still up against it unless all you want to do is play old legacy styles. Yamaha's Mega voice system, and SA voices in styles, Korg's Guitar Mode and NTT's, these are what make modern Yamaha's and Korg's so great. If the latest stuff from the latest arrangers doesn't have either the software player to play them, or the soundset that responds the same way, newer styles are just going to fare really poorly.

I really don't know why this hoary old arguments keep getting trotted out every year or two. Nothing has changed. Soft arrangers and VSTi's trail the latest arranger technology (as soon as something is made 'soft', the arranger makers put something newer on their keyboards, usually sooner!) and probably always will.

Until someone posts demos of a product that you can buy, open the box, and start playing IMMEDIATELY and sound as good as a TOTL arranger, it's always going to be an also ran. If it involves buying something three or four times as expensive, you might as well forget it!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#378397 - 12/16/13 04:09 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
I have always said an OAS 7 instrument is not an OOTB solution; it is designed for those that want more. (Plus most organ players hate the limitations arrangers put on your playing, but are happy to add them as an addition too)

As to price then Wersi is the same price as all the other organs out there, so is certainly not overpriced. (Unless you consider every manufactures organ to be overpriced)

Your suggestion of a way for Dan to move forward is excellent, and must admit I hadnt thought of using it as an addition too, rather a standalone. (See how positive things can be when you dont put obstacles in the way)

Roland do not use any fancy voices or tricks in their styles, yet they make mincemeat of the other manufactures styles, which just goes to show you dont need fancy voices to make it sound great.

Regards

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#378415 - 12/17/13 01:23 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
adimatis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1159
Loc: Oradea, RO
A side aspect, for what it matters: for me, a true open-arranger will only make sense in the software environment - a computer, a controller and the virtual arranger and instruments.
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#378418 - 12/17/13 03:18 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: adimatis]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: adimatis
A side aspect, for what it matters: for me, a true open-arranger will only make sense in the software environment - a computer, a controller and the virtual arranger and instruments.


Not really... if you build your totl arranger inside the keyboard, and have a websop like the appstore, it allows people to add the module they want to the arranger..

On top of this, an appstore approach is good for having controll over the stabbility of the system..

The windows based systems we have known for decades will soon belong to the past, as allowing people to ruin their software is a non wanted feature these days..
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.

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#378426 - 12/17/13 04:20 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Actually, yes, I DO consider ALL organs to be horribly overpriced. But that's only to be expected when the overall size of the market is a tiny, tiny, TINY fraction of what it was in the sixties and seventies. Economy of scale, and all that.

It's why I'm concerned that arrangers aren't really being made to resonate with the needs of the younger (under 30) players nowadays. As the arranger players dwindle and pass on, all that will be left is hugely expensive boutique arrangers, just like that's all that's left of the home organ market, which used to be strong in ALL price ranges back in the day.

The truth is, you could put something together (you can't really call the OAS as a non-OOTB solution if you want to charge that much for it!) that easily equals a TOTL Wersi with a combination of master controller, arranger, WS and software and STILL save about $10,000! If the $20,000+ Wersi still takes a boatload of effort to sound that great, the cheaper alternative doesn't need much more effort, and who exactly is well heeled enough to think that ponying up an extra $10,000 is worth the LITTLE extra it takes to cobble modern kit together to achieve the same thing?

BTW, I don't think my suggestion to Dan is any more likely to help him than my opinion about the completely soft arranger is likely to hurt him! He seems bent on his own path, just as Dom was. If the idea of controlling a software arranger by using a hardware arranger (and its sounds) so that you can play non-native styles OOTB hasn't occurred to him yet, I'm pretty sure he hasn't thought things through..! It would sure be a HECK of a lot less work than a soft standalone version, if he wants to sound as good as a hardware one.

Personally, I think the hybrid method would be optimal. The soft arranger PLAYER gets controlled by the hardware arranger, uses its sounds for the most, but also allows you to substitute SOME of them with a few well chosen VSTi's for particular needs. But doing the entire thing in software is a HUGE undertaking, that even Dom (with his vaster resources) couldn't achieve.

I would like to see Dan go down this road, I think it's the more practical solution, but he has to find his own path. And my opinion, for good or bad, isn't really going to change anything. It certainly didn't with Dom! He found his OWN roadblocks, I didn't create them!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#378468 - 12/17/13 11:02 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
Diki, some vArranger users are using vArranger to play all kind of styles with their existing arranger or workstation.

I have a mapping automatically done for many configurations.

It's not compatible with 100% of the styles, some will not sound good, but it is a workable solution, and can sound good for many styles, including new styles.

I am playing some yamaha styles on my Roland BK5, and it sounds great.

I usually improve the mapping every time a user report me a style who does not sound good, and this profit to many styles and to many people.

People can change the sounds of each track of the style, to use their synth instrument list (INS)

You can also decide for each track, witch midi synth will play it. up to 3 synth. can be hardware or software or VST or SoundFonts...

But.... this is a little bit for people who knows what they are doing.

I have today more demands for a 100% software arranger.

Most of people want something 100% software, plug & play.

And this is why I bend smile to this direction

I was like you not so happy with the software route, and started with the Ketron SD2, but after I see that it can be enough stable, fast and can sound very good, this changed my mind, and trust that I have something to do in this way.

So ... yes you can use vArranger with your BK9, and also software synth...

ps : I don't say that you have to buy vArranger. Probably not, as I am reading you smile

From my experience, some people are really enjoying the experience, and some are definitely not for software arrangers.

I never convince anyone to buy vArranger.

People are coming to me with their need, and I say, Yes, it's for you, or No it's not for you
_________________________
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Dan
https://www.varranger.com

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#378479 - 12/17/13 12:42 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
I've got nothing against the vArranger system, but personally, I'm looking for a pretty mature OOTB solution, something that basically, I connect to my BK-9, and the BK-9 controls the vArranger with no work on my behalf, and the vArranger plays my BK-9, and utilizes the BEST sounds, best kits, and does all the tweaking in the background.

Add to that, I'd really prefer it to be on a tactile surface, to make running it a snap, live (I honestly hate working with a laptop in a live environment) and would obviously prefer it be the iPad, as that is what Roland have decided on for their OWN apps for the BK-9. But any tactile surface device would be OK. Obviously, this limits the VSTi aspect quite a bit, but read on...

I heard some of the Ketron SD-2 vArranger demos, and thought they worked very well, but to be fair, you were playing Ketron styles into a Ketron! Not really what most of us are looking for. I imagine that the largest market would be someone with a PSR S950 wanting to play Roland and Korg styles, or someone with a BK-5 or -9, wanting to play Yamaha styles and Korg styles, with none of the conversion hassles and oddities that plague converted styles.

Add to that, obviously, I'm looking for something that allows me to play MODERN Korg and Yamaha styles, not just the legacy ones without the Mega Voices, and other modern features.

TBH, rather than a half baked 'do-it-all' scenario, if you want to develop any VSTi sounds to help it out, probably the FIRST place you need to start is VSTi equivalents of the Mega Voice, SA voice and things like Korg and Yamaha's guitar specific NTT's, so that vArranger can play the Parts that other manufacturer's sounds CAN'T. Then move on from there.

But, although the majority of your requests for your software is a 'do-it-all' solution, you do have to perhaps start to realize that few if any of them have any IDEA just how complicated and difficult what they want is. I'm sure, if more of them realized just what they are asking for, and how unlikely it is that you can pull it off and end up with something that that even equals a modern hardware arranger, let alone better it, and more of them might see the practicality of what I'm suggesting, for the time being.

Despite what some others are saying here, I am in NO WAY trying to throw roadblocks in your way, merely articulating a description of the 'roadblocks' that already exist, and perhaps suggest alternatives that I think are more easily achievable.

Perhaps, once the basic stuff is perfected, and made as easy to use and instant as the OOTB solutions in a keyboard arranger, then you would be in a better position to tackle the Everest of arrangers, the TOTALLY soft arranger from head to toe?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#378494 - 12/17/13 01:56 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
Diki, do you have any recording of your music? smile
_________________________
Regards,

Dan
https://www.varranger.com

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#378515 - 12/17/13 08:39 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
I've got some arranger stuff up at Roland-Arranger.com's 'Renditions' forum, and have posted a few things here, now and again.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#378537 - 12/18/13 01:48 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Diki]
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6482
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Always keep an eye on http://Roland-Arranger.com cos Diki posts some informative stuff there.

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#378592 - 12/18/13 10:24 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Yes, and he's even NICE over there. smile
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#378603 - 12/18/13 01:20 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: DonM]
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
... maybe it's US !!! darthvader

... he even posts some nice music over there ... keys

grin grin grin
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#378823 - 12/20/13 01:24 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
cool smile


A little demo with SampleTank ...

https://app.box.com/s/tmisb76gvbkfnlauh3og
_________________________
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Dan
https://www.varranger.com

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#378918 - 12/21/13 01:40 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: DonM]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Originally Posted By: DonM
Yes, and he's even NICE over there. smile


Nice-ish! sofa
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#378927 - 12/21/13 02:37 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Gunnar Jonny Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 04/01/01
Posts: 4291
Loc: Norway
I've asked a local dealer about Pegasus Wing, also read what to find at the web, but as long as there (as far as I know) is no options to edit or create styles, it's "only" a playback machine?

Anyway, the option to keep a quality keyboard and do all future OS and software updates as well as maybe change some electronic cards to stay at top end is the way to go for more manufacturers as well.

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#378938 - 12/21/13 03:49 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Gunnar Jonny]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By: Gunnar Jonny
I've asked a local dealer about Pegasus Wing, also read what to find at the web, but as long as there (as far as I know) is no options to edit or create styles, it's "only" a playback machine?

Anyway, the option to keep a quality keyboard and do all future OS and software updates as well as maybe change some electronic cards to stay at top end is the way to go for more manufacturers as well.


Hi Gunnar

The ability to edit Drum styles and Midi files was added in the V1.00.04 update which came out in June 2012; however as far as I am aware you still cannot create your own styles on-board as yet.

NOTE: updates are always on-going, with the latest being V2.00.03 released in November 2013, so who knows what the future brings.

The Additional instructions (Which includes all the updates since V1) can be downloaded from the Pegasus Wing Download Centre here

Hope this helps

Bill
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English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#378940 - 12/21/13 04:28 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Gunnar Jonny]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: Gunnar Jonny
I've asked a local dealer about Pegasus Wing, also read what to find at the web, but as long as there (as far as I know) is no options to edit or create styles, it's "only" a playback machine?



That's an important feature to leave off a relatively "professional" level arranger.

It may be alright for some dedicated "home players" (although quite a few I know edit their styles), but it might quite likely be a deal breaker for the advanced or professional user.

Hopefully there will soon be an OS update to allow editing.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#378942 - 12/21/13 05:51 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
If you go with those that use Yamaha Arrangers the vast majority just keep asking for styles for certain songs, rather than using any on-board features to edit or create them. (Although with the amount of styles available its probably not surprising)

There is actually a workaround if you use external styles, (So you dont have to wait until the update arrives) in that the Wing plays Yamaha Styles natively (No conversion required) up to T2 level, so as there are 1000s of styles out there as well as editors for them, (Most free) you can create your own style externally, then load it into the Wing for final editing. (This since the June 2012 update is easily done)
NOTE: There is currently no software made that can read the latest Wersi Style Format, so exporting a factory style to swap parts is a no go.

Remember features are added by demand, therefore if there is something missing just get onto the manufacture to tell them that its wanted, and dont wait hoping someone else will tell them. (Too many people moan about things and expect somebody else to fix it for them, rather than spend a couple of minutes to send off an email to those who make the decisions)

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#378945 - 12/21/13 06:13 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
All in all, it's still a strange omission in an otherwise powerful instrument. Would the Wing be classed as a TOTL or MOTL arranger?

I have taught quite a few people to edit and assemble Yamaha styles, both on-line and in my clinics, and it's surprising how many realize just how simple it is once you see it done, or it's explained in a simpler way than most owner's manuals present it.

Of course, there still will be those who only buy or borrow styles, and ready made song-specific styles are very popular.

Yamaha's Premium styles are often a great starting point for making newly edited styles, and the styles on the more recent Tyros will even allow have organ parts in a style to have realistic speed up/slow down Leslie. That sounds really cool.

Even simple style re-voicing, changing effects, and even volume adjustments can make a dramatic difference in a style.

I'm betting the Wing will at least let you do those operations on board.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#378950 - 12/21/13 07:22 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Gunnar Jonny Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 04/01/01
Posts: 4291
Loc: Norway
It's true that many users play styles as is and hount for songspesific styles, and that's just fine.
I do a lot of that with minor adjustmens as well, but those of us who have been Technics users for some years got spoiled by the flexibility of the Composer features. (and not to forget about the Panelmemory usability)
If not create patterns from scratch, it was easy to copy and paste i.e. drumtracks, bass or whatever from one style/composerpart and crossover to another....

Would love to see some other brand "steal" and adapt such features. Did'nt Technics engineers move over to Korg or something?

St.Claus, did you read this? smile

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#378953 - 12/21/13 07:38 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: ianmcnll]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
All in all, it's still a strange omission in an otherwise powerful instrument. Would the Wing be classed as a TOTL or MOTL arranger?

I have taught quite a few people to edit and assemble Yamaha styles, both on-line and in my clinics, and it's surprising how many realize just how simple it is once you see it done, or it's explained in a simpler way than most owner's manuals present it.

Of course, there still will be those who only buy or borrow styles, and ready made song-specific styles are very popular.

Yamaha's Premium styles are often a great starting point for making newly edited styles, and the styles on the more recent Tyros will even allow have organ parts in a style to have realistic speed up/slow down Leslie. That sounds really cool.

Even simple style re-voicing, changing effects, and even volume adjustments can make a dramatic difference in a style.

I'm betting the Wing will at least let you do those operations on board.

Ian


Price wise it is in-between MOTL & TOTL models, so to be quite honest I am not quite sure what to call it, plus as its the only one they make can it have a designated position?

As for editing like you mentioned, then since the June 2012 update Yes, however when it was officially launched in March/April 2012 it couldnt. (It was soon fixed though)

Here are the updates so far:

V1 R 00:01 - 00:02 (May 2012)

New options for saving of Total pre-sets
Way to display karaoke lyrics
Additional settings Sequence Transpose and MIDI multimode
Correction of the foot switch control

V1 R 00:02 - 00:03 (May 2012)

Expansion of Footswitch settings and some corrections
New Drawbar tone module VB3 Wersi Edition
Full display of tone module settings, plus saving of tone module settings
New optional sound package "Best of Accordions" for the Pegasus Wing
Error messages eliminated after restoring the factory settings / loading a backup

V1 R 00:03 - 00:04 (June 2012)

Enhanced MIDI Editor
Advanced Style Editor
15 new Drawbar tones added (level 7-9)
New optional sound/style package "James Last Edition" for the Pegasus Wing
Eliminates error messages after restoring the factory settings / loading a backup

V 1 R 00.04 - V 2.0 R 00.01 (August 2012)

All Styles has been adjusted in volume
50 new Live pre-sets by Robert Bartha
New optional Sound/Style package "Franz Lambert Edition" for the Pegasus Wing
New optional sound package "Portamento sounds" for the Pegasus Wing

V 2 R 00:01 - 00:02 (October 2012)

50 new song pre-sets by Claudia Hirschfeld
New optional extension "Selector Plus" for the Pegasus Wing

V 2 R 00:02 - 00:03 (November 2013)

45 new pre-sets from music store employees
New optional Style Package "MS Professional Style Edition 1"
New optional Style Package "Modern Pop-Rock Style"
New optional Style Package "Schlager-style package 1"
Harmony Quantizing for the auto accompaniment
Foot switch assignment - Global Setting
Bug fix: foot switch assignment - corrected caption
bug fix: VB3 - tracking the expression pedal the sound now changes correctly
Bug fix: When importing pre-sets the name is applied correctly
Bug fix: After deleting a record, instrument no longer has to be re-started to show new slot

NOTE: the above has been translated from the German manual so may not be 100% correct.

Happy Playing

Bill


Edited by abacus (12/21/13 07:45 AM)
Edit Reason: Added Note
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#378955 - 12/21/13 07:48 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
You can get there a bit with Yamaha's Style assembly, in that you can take a bass line from one style, and insert it into a different one...this also applies to the other style parts like drums, phrases, pads, chords.

This is by far the easiest way to create another style, as the parts are already set up to work...no note limits to set, no NTR or NTT to figure out, etc.

The newer Yamaha Style Creator also allow for stroke or arpeggio for the guitar parts.

Style creator's Groove & Dynamics lets you easily set the amount of "swing" for a style, or sections of that style. it also has other uses that I won't go into here, but suffice to say, the average player can do quite a bit of editing without knowing a lot of technical info.

I'm sure Roland and Korg have very similar features and perhaps some that are more extensive and even easier to use.

As I said earlier, most people who see it being done, or have it explained properly (I often used Skype) rematrk at how easy it was.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#378967 - 12/21/13 09:14 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Gunnar Jonny Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 04/01/01
Posts: 4291
Loc: Norway
Quote myself from another tread:

I was very close to order a PA900 from Thomann.de to explore more of the Korg OS who is not in the MicroArranger and that way maybe ready for PA5xPro when it comes....
But when I found a Tyros 4 at same price level as PA900 at local eBay sort of site, I just tought it was on time for me to try out Yamaha.
Yes, I know I've not been any Yammie fan so far, but I guess it doese'nt hurt to try it out properly.
After all, it's X-Mas time ..... besides of that, Midispot have a lot of great styles for Yamaha T. smile

If transport goes out well, it will be here to explore at X-mas eve.
End quote........

Guess I was very sleepy when did this deal, but button pushed are button pushed and done is done.
In fact, I'm looking forward to try it out nice and quiet at home. grin

Btw. Ian, you'll never know, all that sudden you might have s Norwegian calling at Skype. sofa

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