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#287992 - 05/26/10 12:16 PM OS 4.3...
LIONSTRACS Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy

Almost ready now...
Soon the TON list of the all new features ( not only video..)

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#287993 - 05/26/10 12:27 PM Re: OS 4.3...
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Ahhhh so Frans BIG wish to get his scrolling lyrics with his MP3 files is finally going to happen

Dennis

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#287994 - 05/26/10 12:35 PM Re: OS 4.3...
leezone Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 3131
when i first saw title of this post, OS 4.3
i was thinking it was the Ketron OS

ROFL ....

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#287995 - 05/26/10 12:40 PM Re: OS 4.3...
LIONSTRACS Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
yes..
we are slow here to develope..BUT at the end I give always what I had promised.
More Groove I sell, more new OS and features you get..simple...and the hardware remain the same

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#287996 - 05/26/10 12:42 PM Re: OS 4.3...
LIONSTRACS Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
Quote:
Originally posted by leezone:
when i first saw title of this post, OS 4.3
i was thinking it was the Ketron OS

ROFL ....



For running one Mpeg there, you have to wait the OS 4300

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#287997 - 05/26/10 12:42 PM Re: OS 4.3...
leezone Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 3131
if you are slow to develop,
what can we say about the "others" ???

what i like is that you are honest and LISTEN to your customers,

i have to check out your products :-)

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#287998 - 05/26/10 12:48 PM Re: OS 4.3...
LIONSTRACS Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
MAYBE with the OS 4.3, we release also the new mainboards drivers for the Groove X-7 EXTREME3


USB 3.0!
SATA 3-6Gb!
Six core CPU.
16Gb RAM DDR3-1600!
Dual Sata3 HD 1Tb RAID.
This hardware and special OS wil be released ONLY for the Xtreme3 Groove models.

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#287999 - 05/26/10 12:49 PM Re: OS 4.3...
leezone Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 3131
LIONSTRACS


was on your site

do you not have demos (Audio/Video) for your products?

are you missing something or am i?

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#288000 - 05/26/10 12:51 PM Re: OS 4.3...
leezone Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 3131
USB 3.0!
SATA 3-6Gb!
Six core CPU.
16Gb RAM DDR3-1600!
Dual Sata3 HD 1Tb RAID.

WOW,
now THESE are some SERIOUS MODERN SPECS

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#288001 - 05/26/10 01:32 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Quote:
Originally posted by LIONSTRACS:
yes..
we are slow here to develope..BUT at the end I give always what I had promised.
More Groove I sell, more new OS and features you get..simple...and the hardware remain the same


Now here is a man who understand English, buy a KB off him and we will use some of the money to develop the software further, what a bloody brilliant idea. Ketron are your reading this, but you get the hardware right first. Miracles take a little longer.

[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 05-26-2010).]
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#288002 - 05/26/10 01:39 PM Re: OS 4.3...
leezone Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 3131
and can you feel the love tonight...

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#288003 - 05/26/10 01:39 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Quote:
Originally posted by leezone:
if you are slow to develop,
what can we say about the "others" ???

what i like is that you are honest and LISTEN to your customers,

i have to check out your products :-)


Leezone,

Don't take too long you have been doing that with Audya for the last year to my knowledge, there is a good chance one or two of use will have dropped off the end before you get your hand in your pocket, and that would entail making a decision, not something you have done for a while.
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#288004 - 05/26/10 01:44 PM Re: OS 4.3...
leezone Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 3131
Tony


once your problems are fixed with AUDYA
you will fall back in love

"Go on, go on, until you reach the end of the line
But I know you'll pass my way again
It's just a matter of time...."

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#288005 - 05/26/10 01:47 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Quote:
Originally posted by leezone:
Tony


once your problems are fixed with AUDYA
you will fall back in love

"Go on, go on, until you reach the end of the line
But I know you'll pass my way again
It's just a matter of time...."



Leezone I'm here again!

Youre a poet,
and you don't know it.
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#288006 - 05/26/10 01:48 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Leezone,

No messing about now, what do you think of the Groove X7?
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#288007 - 05/26/10 01:57 PM Re: OS 4.3...
leezone Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 3131
i never played one,
so i can't and won't say if it's good or bad

but from what i know, it's more of a DJ, loop like, vst player,
not a true arranger

i need an arranger FIRST and foremost...

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#288008 - 05/27/10 11:40 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by leezone:
i need an arranger FIRST and foremost...


You know, it's strange how that fact seems to be at the top of every ARRANGER player's list of needs, and somehow at the bottom of the open arranger fans' list.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#288009 - 05/27/10 12:09 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Quote:
Originally posted by leezone:
i never played one,
so i can't and won't say if it's good or bad

but from what i know, it's more of a DJ, loop like, vst player,
not a true arranger

i need an arranger FIRST and foremost...


With the live arranger and the Q-ranger you have 2 Arrangers in one instrument.

Can you name any arranger that tops that?


Actually the mediastation can be what you want it to be : DAW, arranger, Synth workstation, Deejay tool or what ever your needs are. But if you just use the standard sounds and styles of your Arranger and never edit them then a closed arranger will be a great choice for you.... And to be honest, there are no bad sounding (TOTL) arrangers anymore.

Its a matter of Taste but Tyros, G70, Audya, PA2X they all sound great. But Giga samples and VST's just even sound better. But not so good that they would make a bad player sound better.
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#288010 - 05/27/10 09:53 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
I believe a Giga and VST voiced arranger WOULD make an amateur sound better... but only if a PRO voices and styles it for them (like they do for closed arrangers).

If you don't, then the amateur has to voice and style it himself, and then all hell breaks loose. The day someone making open arrangers realizes this basic fact, open arrangers are going to dominate the market. Until then, they are NOT...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#288011 - 05/28/10 03:06 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I believe a Giga and VST voiced arranger WOULD make an amateur sound better... but only if a PRO voices and styles it for them (like they do for closed arrangers).

If you don't, then the amateur has to voice and style it himself, and then all hell breaks loose. The day someone making open arrangers realizes this basic fact, open arrangers are going to dominate the market. Until then, they are NOT...


Dom admitted that fact already, the basic soundset of the MS is allready high quallity and the standard GM giga samples are even much better.

HErman is creating a complete high quallity Q-ranger style data-base. Someone else is making a Ketron Giga soundset so all Ketron sounds/styles sound better out of the box on a MS then on an Audya.

Its happening Diki, and if you'd be only ready to wake up you could have seen it with your own eyes. In a few weeks you will be able to hear the results tough.

[This message has been edited by Bachus (edited 05-28-2010).]
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#288012 - 05/28/10 12:44 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Excellent can't wait.

Just finished an intense two days in the Studio here and I ended up only using two keyboards for the entire project. That's a first for me, normally I'd draw on everything I own. Lol... My trusty AKAI S5000 sat this one out for the first time every.

I guess it works out about at 60% OASYS - 40% Mediastation for this project. The Mediastation was doing all the mega Sample based stuff and the OASYS was doing drums and the evolving synth based stuff. Very enjoyable and what a totally mind blowing setup it is to own both fine instruments.

Best of the best.

Regards
James

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#288013 - 05/28/10 01:45 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43692
Loc: USA
Thats Great James it must sound awesome for sure. Would love to hear a few snippets if you would when its done.

Good Luck
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#288014 - 05/28/10 03:44 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
Excellent can't wait.

Just finished an intense two days in the Studio here and I ended up only using two keyboards for the entire project. That's a first for me, normally I'd draw on everything I own. Lol... My trusty AKAI S5000 sat this one out for the first time every.

I guess it works out about at 60% OASYS - 40% Mediastation for this project. The Mediastation was doing all the mega Sample based stuff and the OASYS was doing drums and the evolving synth based stuff. Very enjoyable and what a totally mind blowing setup it is to own both fine instruments.

Best of the best.

Regards
James


Seems you have the best of both worlds...Best sounding closed synth with Karma onboard combined with the most advanced open arranger.

While they don't realise but most keyboard players can only dream about this combination.

Still its sad there are only so few Oasys sold, and i don't think Korg will make an improved version of it anytime soon.
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Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.

http://keyszone.boards.net

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#288015 - 05/28/10 10:00 PM Re: OS 4.3...
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
i think its about time that the MS had styles specifically programmed for its internall sounds. Now we should be able to see the true potential of well balanced skillfully programmed styles on par with the likes of roland, yamaha and Korg instead of the passable to good styles it has had so far. This would at least get it into the starting blocks as an arranger.

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#288016 - 05/28/10 11:56 PM Re: OS 4.3...
LIONSTRACS Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
Quote:
Originally posted by LIONSTRACS:
MAYBE with the OS 4.3, we release also the new mainboards drivers for the Groove X-7 EXTREME3


USB 3.0!
SATA 3-6Gb!
Six core CPU.
16Gb RAM DDR3-1600!
Dual Sata3 HD 1Tb RAID.
This hardware and special OS wil be released ONLY for the Xtreme3 Groove models.


Just tested and full working!

here the Groove X7 Extreme3, with the new AM3-770Extreme3 mainboard, Six core CPU and Sata3/6Gb HD 1Tb.. of course..USB3 included.


I'm uploading on youtube the video hardware to prove it.

about the OS 4.3..we delay it some days untill is also ready the new Big features and new Interface, the Giga Sounbank loader!
Will allow to load in realtime Up to 12 LSCP sounbank by file browser( system like the Giga Solo edit mode)
In this way you can create your own LSCP name soundbank and load direct by the interface.
The tool wil also display in realtime the Sampler scanning information and will shown IF some sounds are missing, brocken and so on.
A NEW Yamaha GIGA soundbank is ready and also cloned the SD2 and audya sounds from another MS user.
Tastenpoit have about ready now 80 native audio styles...
Slow slow we arrival...

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#288017 - 05/29/10 01:07 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
i think its about time that the MS had styles specifically programmed for its internall sounds. Now we should be able to see the true potential of well balanced skillfully programmed styles on par with the likes of roland, yamaha and Korg instead of the passable to good styles it has had so far. This would at least get it into the starting blocks as an arranger.


Thats exactly what Helmut at Tastenpoint is doing right now.

(he allready has 80 of those styles finished and is aiming to create over 200 of those) all those styles will be onboard of the Tastenpoint Mediastations/Grooves.
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Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.

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#288018 - 05/29/10 01:17 AM Re: OS 4.3...
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by LIONSTRACS:
Just tested and full working!
I'm uploading on youtube the video hardware to prove it.

about the OS 4.3..we delay it some days untill is also ready the new Big features and new Interface, the Giga Sounbank loader!
Will allow to load in realtime Up to 12 LSCP sounbank by file browser( system like the Giga Solo edit mode)
In this way you can create your own LSCP name soundbank and load direct by the interface.
The tool wil also display in realtime the Sampler scanning information and will shown IF some sounds are missing, brocken and so on.
A NEW Yamaha GIGA soundbank is ready and also cloned the SD2 and audya sounds from another MS user.
Tastenpoit have about ready now 80 native audio styles...
Slow slow we arrival...


That is super news Domenico...great work..And that new machinery looks "sweeeet"

The multiple LSCP will be a HUGE improvement!!

Can't wait

As I said in an other thread, Lionstracs HAVE arrived, and the steady river flow is going to soon be a torrent...I would not mind buying some shares now

Dennis

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#288019 - 05/29/10 03:27 AM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by LIONSTRACS:

about the OS 4.3..we delay it some days untill is also ready the new Big features and new Interface, the Giga Sounbank loader!
Will allow to load in realtime Up to 12 LSCP sounbank by file browser( system like the Giga Solo edit mode)
In this way you can create your own LSCP name soundbank and load direct by the interface.
The tool wil also display in realtime the Sampler scanning information and will shown IF some sounds are missing, brocken and so on.



we see more and more user friendly things.

good work Domenico and Lionstracs team.

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#288020 - 05/29/10 05:23 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
also cloned the SD2


Is it someone we know that I could talk to?
I have a few questions I'd like to ask them.

Regards
James

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#288021 - 05/29/10 05:44 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Just looked up the prices of that hardware...

mainboard 80
CPU 2.8Ghz 190
CPU 3.2Ghz 285
4x4GB DDR3 memmory kit > 600

Now thats some expensive memmory.

Because of de size restrictions Groove can prolly only handle motherboards with 4 Dims, and so you need to buy the very expensive 4GB DDR3 modules.

I don't know tough if Lionstracs supports people that want to upgrade the hardware of their systems.

A question to Dom :
Those 2 PCI PCB's, are those the interfaces to the soundhardware?
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#288022 - 05/29/10 06:24 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
Just looked up the prices of that hardware..


Can you just imagine the speed of that monster. If money was no object, throw a 256GB SSD in there and it would be totally insane. Drooling here.

The second prices start to drop on SSD's I'll be putting one on my own Meidastation.

Regards
James

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#288023 - 05/31/10 02:39 PM Re: OS 4.3...
LIONSTRACS Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
A small OS update candy...

still some script text sampler feedback to optimize and then is ready..
For today enough.

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#288024 - 05/31/10 02:45 PM Re: OS 4.3...
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Its looking good Domenico!!

Looks like you have the multiple LSCP's sorted too...Sweet!!

Dennis

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 05-31-2010).]

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#288025 - 05/31/10 05:12 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Excellent.
This will come in extremely handy for me because I've got a virtual SD2 running on my Mediastation right now

Regards
James

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#288026 - 05/31/10 05:26 PM Re: OS 4.3...
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
Excellent.
This will come in extremely handy for me because I've got a virtual SD2 running on my Mediastation right now

Regards
James


Hi James,

Where did the virtual SD2 come from? Did you sample your hardware SD2?

Is is possible to buy it somewhere? Coz I cannot find an SD2 out here anywhere (s/h that is, I am not paying new prices )

Dennis

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#288027 - 05/31/10 06:15 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi Dennis.

Quote:
Where did the virtual SD2 come from? Did you sample your hardware SD2?


Yes I sampled my unit, not all of it though. There are 4 banks of sound, each with 128 sounds in them. Bank A is the core GM bank and that's what I've sampled. That and all the drum kits.

I haven't touched the other 3 banks yet.

Quote:
Is is possible to buy it somewhere? Coz I cannot find an SD2 out here anywhere (s/h that is, I am not paying new prices


Domenico said above that someone has already cloned the SD2 and the Audya so I assume he's going to release that for free.

I'd love to know who done the work and how much effort they put in. It's not easy to do this right and the amount of time it would have taken to sample all 512 sounds is insane. Can't imagine anyone wanting to do that amount of work for free. It's a massive job.

Regards
James

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#288028 - 05/31/10 06:22 PM Re: OS 4.3...
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Yeah, I agree. Thats why I was asking if you would be prepared to sell a licence to me to use your samples.

Although I am not sure of the copyright with Ketron, or if thats allowed??

In any case I should be able to assign the LA out to VST's I think..So its probably a moot point.

I have not gone that far into LA...Yet!!

Dennis

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#288029 - 05/31/10 09:19 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Quote:
Originally posted by LIONSTRACS:
A small OS update candy...

still some script text sampler feedback to optimize and then is ready..
For today enough.


If all of those soundsets will be high quallity, then we are getting close to walhalla...
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#288030 - 05/31/10 10:05 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Domenic claimed someone had cloned the T2 back in the day... I wonder what happened to that?

We certainly have never heard a T2 style played on the MS that sounded anything like a T2!

James is right in the herculean scale of adequately sampling an entire arranger's worth of sounds. Plus, as he well knows, it isn't just about sampling each sound once... you have to take envelopes, modulations and velocity x-splits into account, all across the usable range of the sound. It's just another of those ideas that SEEM like a good idea until you realize the workload involved to get an adequate result...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#288031 - 06/01/10 04:24 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
Domenic claimed someone had cloned the T2 back in the day... I wonder what happened to that?


There is a Tyros folder on the keyboard that contains lots of sounds. The problem is whoever did the work never finished what they started. Many sounds are not even looped, nor is there a LSCP file to use the sound in a GM Bank for style playback.

Quote:
James is right in the herculean scale of adequately sampling an entire arranger's worth of sounds. Plus, as he well knows, it isn't just about sampling each sound once... you have to take envelopes, modulations and velocity x-splits into account, all across the usable range of the sound. It's just another of those ideas that SEEM like a good idea until you realize the workload involved to get an adequate result...


Yes, sampling is an art. You have to be seriously committed to the task in order to do it right. I've been doing this 15 years and I will tell anyone straight out, it's a long and painful process to achieve top quality results.

Take my Virtual SD2 for example. I had to listen to each and every sound in detail one by one and adjust my key maps so that I capture the right notes in order to reproduce the sound as close to the original as possible. Then I have to take the time to loop each and every single sample that makes up each sound. In the end I then have to turn around and make the LSCP file so it will run on the keyboard for style playback. The entire process takes a very very long time even for someone like me and it's by no means easy.

Do it right though and the results are fantastic. I've already done some A vs B tests to compare the actual SD2 to my Virtual SD2 and it's extremely hard to tell the difference between them. It's also worth the effort in the end for me because now I don't have to touch a Ketron style and I get very good results out of the box with no tweaks.

Regards
James

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#288032 - 06/01/10 04:34 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Just to add to what I said..... Where I am right now is the closest the Mediastation has ever been to being an all singing and dancing open arranger out of the box. With my Virtual SD2 there is little to no tweaking required for Ketron styles at all which are just pulled of the net and loaded into the keyboard.

What would be ideal at this point is if the legal position on doing all this was made crystal clear and if people like me could then turn around and sell the work I've just done so nobody else has to.

I know it's perfectly legal for me to do this for myself since I own an SD2. But... where do I stand on selling the data is almost an impossible question to answer with any certainty. It's a debate as old as sampling itself.

Ketron sample Vintage gear for example to produce their synth sounds.

Regards
James

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#288033 - 06/01/10 04:56 AM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
Yes, sampling is an art. You have to be seriously committed to the task in order to do it right. I've been doing this 15 years and I will tell anyone straight out, it's a long and painful process to achieve top quality results.

Take my Virtual SD2 for example. I had to listen to each and every sound in detail one by one and adjust my key maps so that I capture the right notes in order to reproduce the sound as close to the original as possible. Then I have to take the time to loop each and every single sample that makes up each sound. In the end I then have to turn around and make the LSCP file so it will run on the keyboard for style playback. The entire process takes a very very long time even for someone like me and it's by no means easy.

Do it right though and the results are fantastic. I've already done some A vs B tests to compare the actual SD2 to my Virtual SD2 and it's extremely hard to tell the difference between them. It's also worth the effort in the end for me because now I don't have to touch a Ketron style and I get very good results out of the box with no tweaks.

Regards
James


agree with you, the one who sampled sounds even not used powerful extreme editor x-fade function to make good loops................

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#288034 - 06/01/10 05:32 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Yeah, x-fade is very powerful. You can be sure it was used on all my samples.

Regards
James.

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#288035 - 06/01/10 07:18 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Dom, I am biting at the bit....when will we see 4.3?
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#288036 - 06/02/10 12:50 AM Re: OS 4.3...
LIONSTRACS Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
Dom, I am biting at the bit....when will we see 4.3?


Friday we burn the ISO with 64studio, then I test and Uploading on server.
I think for saturday is ready to download and enjoy your 70.000 Mp3-CDG!

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#288037 - 06/03/10 12:23 PM Re: OS 4.3...
LIONSTRACS Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
So, the OS 4.3 I think is ready now.
Tomorrow we will see if 64studio have the time to building all and bur the new ISO OS 4.3.

Here the last updates:

Press SETUP key and will display the all setup features, the Patch C is changed for use the LSCP soundbank loader.

Here the LSCP Sounbank loader update with the Scrollbar Up/Down and left/right.
I have added the left/righ scrollbar because now IF one sounds is missing/bad/wrong...the sampler type one Error sounds and will display the whole file path.
In this way you can see where is the soundbug and fix yourself.
then just reload the LSCP file and the sampler check again, the OK mean that the sound is loaded correct.

For the debug test, i have splitted ( copy/paste) the MS-02-instruments.lscp file and created many others with a parts groups sounds.
on restart, the system have loaded all, midiplayer have played the all tracks correct.

so..in this new system, you can create new small LSCP soundbank with the only sounds that you need on system.
I made for example a LSCP bank of the only drumkits, one for the Pianos and so on.
On restart the system will load all and merge all in realtime.
LACP sounbank files are now UNLIMITED, same way as the sounpatch..
James..enough for you?

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#288038 - 06/03/10 12:27 PM Re: OS 4.3...
LIONSTRACS Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
The news here are not finish...)
First the building and release soon the new OS 4.3 promised...BUT..
From monday we start also building the new Linux Kubuntu 10.04 distribution on the new LIONSTRACS OS 4.5!


Understand what I mean?
Ah..forget...this is the AFG music Mediastation with the new Kubuntu 10.04...


[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 06-03-2010).]

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#288039 - 06/03/10 12:51 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Quote:
Originally posted by LIONSTRACS:

Ah..forget...this is the AFG music Mediastation with the new Kubuntu 10.04...
]


That looks lika an old one, must have been a pre production model
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#288040 - 06/03/10 01:17 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Dom... any chance of learning to scale your pictures so they don't overflow the page width here?

James... I think the answer to your cloning dilemma is easy. Just apply the Golden Rule. If YOU had made an
entire soundset for an arranger (or any keyboard) and had poured vast sums of money into making it sound great
would you be happy if someone came along, cloned it as accurately as possible, and then either sold it or gave it
away for free? Would you be likely to ever make another one? Would you want to sue the pants off the infringer?

I think, in all likelihood, that the same standards that apply to using samples of commercial music would apply.
If you use tiny snippets, and make the end result VERY different from the original, you are likely OK
(but even there, permission and a fee is usual if the snippet is even remotely recognizable)
but if you 'sample' an entire CD, put it out under your name and either distribute it for free or even worse, sell it
you are going to be in hot water.

'Cloning' an entire keyboard, except for one's own private use (even commercially on a record, you may be in trouble if you didn't buy the original keyboard)
is pretty much the same thing. It is outright intellectual property theft, and any company would be well
within their rights to litigate. As no doubt, you would be tempted to do if it were done to YOU.

Protecting the revenue stream from endeavor is the only way to ensure that further endeavor WILL be made.
Look at what has happened to the music industry. Look what is happening to the movie industry.
If anyone can steal anything, and give it away (or sell it) with impunity, who in their right minds is going to MAKE anything any more?

But, bottom line of all this is, doesn't this simply show how bankrupt the idea of an 'open' arranger is?
That it has to 'steal' the sounds of a closed one before it is any good... Wasn't the promise of something BETTER? That anyone would go to these lengths simply
demonstrates how hard it is to simply get a collection of high quality VSTi's, and make something that blows away
the poor arrangers you are trying so hard to clone.

Anyway, simply follow the Golden Rule, and you KNOW it's wrong to distribute an arranger clone soundset.
I certainly wouldn't expect to make any money from it. After all, if you can steal it from Ketron
then it's OK for them to steal your work from YOU, isn't it?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#288041 - 06/03/10 01:41 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi Domencio.
I'm truly impressed. This is excellent work and HUGE news.

Well done.!!!!!

James

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#288042 - 06/03/10 01:45 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Dom... any chance of learning to scale your pictures so they don't overflow the page width here?

James... I think the answer to your cloning dilemma is easy. Just apply the Golden Rule. If YOU had made an
entire soundset for an arranger (or any keyboard) and had poured vast sums of money into making it sound great
would you be happy if someone came along, cloned it as accurately as possible, and then either sold it or gave it
away for free? Would you be likely to ever make another one? Would you want to sue the pants off the infringer?

I think, in all likelihood, that the same standards that apply to using samples of commercial music would apply.
If you use tiny snippets, and make the end result VERY different from the original, you are likely OK
(but even there, permission and a fee is usual if the snippet is even remotely recognizable)
but if you 'sample' an entire CD, put it out under your name and either distribute it for free or even worse, sell it
you are going to be in hot water.

'Cloning' an entire keyboard, except for one's own private use (even commercially on a record, you may be in trouble if you didn't buy the original keyboard)
is pretty much the same thing. It is outright intellectual property theft, and any company would be well
within their rights to litigate. As no doubt, you would be tempted to do if it were done to YOU.

Protecting the revenue stream from endeavor is the only way to ensure that further endeavor WILL be made.
Look at what has happened to the music industry. Look what is happening to the movie industry.
If anyone can steal anything, and give it away (or sell it) with impunity, who in their right minds is going to MAKE anything any more?

But, bottom line of all this is, doesn't this simply show how bankrupt the idea of an 'open' arranger is?
That it has to 'steal' the sounds of a closed one before it is any good... Wasn't the promise of something BETTER? That anyone would go to these lengths simply
demonstrates how hard it is to simply get a collection of high quality VSTi's, and make something that blows away
the poor arrangers you are trying so hard to clone.

Anyway, simply follow the Golden Rule, and you KNOW it's wrong to distribute an arranger clone soundset.
I certainly wouldn't expect to make any money from it. After all, if you can steal it from Ketron
then it's OK for them to steal your work from YOU, isn't it?


Diki...

Does Steinway make any money when someone sells a CD with a steinway piano on it? Does Steinway make any money when someone samples a Steinway piano?

No they don't... So why should Yamaha or Korg make any money when someone samples the sample they took from a Steinway?
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#288043 - 06/03/10 01:55 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Diki.
Where do you think all the waveforms for all keyboards come from ?
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just pointing out that every keyboard manufacture going samples sounds from other keyboards and instruments.

James.

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#288044 - 06/03/10 01:59 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Actually yes, if you sample a piano an SELL it as 'Steinway samples', you have to pay Steinway a license fee.

The issue isn't that someone sampled a Steinway. It is that someone spent a FORTUNE sampling that Steinway,
and you did nothing but copy their data. You didn't call in a string section at great expense, and spend a week getting all the notes
and articulations. You let them do all the work, then stole it. You didn't hire a bunch of first call horn player, you let someone else do all the work, and then STOLE it.

MAKE YOUR OWN SAMPLES, THIEF... (then remain silent while someone steals them for profit).

If I break into your warehouse and steal an MS, how is it any different? You spent a fortune making it.
I want it for free. Why can't I take it? You think YOU have a right to make a profit, but the sample makers DON'T?

Hey, James... send me ALL your commercial samples. No, I won't pay for them. I just want them. If you don't,
I will just take them. Sound OK with you?

How about that Corvette, Dom? I know you paid for it, but what right do you have to keep it..? I want it.
And I don't want to have to pay for it. By your own rules, I can come
and get it any time I want.

See you soon...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#288045 - 06/03/10 02:05 PM Re: OS 4.3...
cgiles Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6662
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
How about that Corvette, Dom? I know you paid for it, but what right do you have to keep it..? I want it.
And I don't want to have to pay for it. By your own rules, I can come
and get it any time I want.

See you soon...


Be careful. Dom has a gun.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#288046 - 06/03/10 02:19 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
So does Yamaha, Korg, Ketron and Roland... or at least their lawyers do BIG GUNS... against a tiny
company. More like taking a knife to a gunfight, I'd say. Tread lightly, Dom. Posting on this forum counts
as evidence of intent

Anyway, I'm not going to steal it while he's LOOKING...! I'll stab him in the back while he's
sleeping, like a good Italian... (Tony Hughes made me say that! I would NEVER harm someone from a
country that gave us Ferrari, Pagani and Lamborghini..! Mind you, Fiat makes me
reach for the stiletto )


[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 06-03-2010).]
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#288047 - 06/03/10 02:39 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43692
Loc: USA
get the lock ready !
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#288048 - 06/03/10 02:45 PM Re: OS 4.3...
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Problem is the Dik, does not get it...James is NOT selling Ketron samples.

He would be selling IrishActs samples created by him...

No different of he samples a Yamaha Grand, then creates his own sample base from HIS recorded sample.

No copyright on a sound wave coming from a piano.

No different if he goes outside records some birds tweeting.

No copyright on soundwaves....

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#288049 - 06/03/10 02:51 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Diki is just taking nonsense.

I ask him only one question and he avoids answer it.

James

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#288050 - 06/03/10 04:11 PM Re: OS 4.3...
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
Diki is just taking nonsense.

I ask him only one question and he avoids answer it.

James


Yes James, he does seem to have a habit of doing that. Avoiding questions that cast some doubt on his "statements of fact".

He does not seem to have the humility to admit error (that may not be true but it certainly SEEMS that way).

So he then replies using selected words form the original poster, totally disregards the syntax, and posts a convoluted reply to cover up his initial error. (Again perhaps not intentional, but that is how it comes across, well to me anyway)

Dennis

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#288051 - 06/04/10 01:33 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6482
Loc: Ventura CA USA
From what I have seen over the years is that no-one including Yamaha and Roland name their patches from the original instruments they sampled them from. For example I very much doubt whether anyone has been paying Rhodes for sampling the Rhodes electric piano for all these years. In fact Yamaha and Roland have been very particular about naming their Rhodes patches names like "Suitcase Electric" or something that has no copyright association. The same goes for Oberheim samples even though we all know what "Jump Brass" is really referring to. Let's get real here.

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#288052 - 06/05/10 06:35 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Exactly.

It also extends out to styles and song books on keyboards. Keyboard manufactures product styles based on very popular songs and pay no royalties. They then even arrange them into Song Books on the keyboards and give them a name extremely close to the song they are intended to sound like so there are no royalties to pay or any legal issues.

This even extends to actual product lines and the names the keyboards are called. They give them very generic names or model numbers because in the past there have been lawsuits over the names given to keyboards. Not just keyboards either, Apple for example have even sued supermarkets for using an Apple in their logo.

It's all about trademarks and using existing named products to help promote your own. So long as you stay away form that, then there's quite a lot you can do that's legally sound.

As I said above, every keyboard manufacture on the face of the planet samples other keyboards and real world instruments. None of them have to pay any royalties either because they don't use the names of the products they are sampling, or there's a generic name. Silver Flute, Golden Trumpet, 80's Synth, Take Me On, and so on...

A musical instrument, as in a keyboard is a physical object. The sound it produces is it's function and cannot be copyrighted. If it could then Ketron and everyone else would not be allowed to sample the instruments they did to create the sounds their products produce. This is also not something a keyboard manufacture can just change their mind on when it suites them either. They sample their sounds from other instruments to product their products, then they have no right to protect the sound their instrument produces, just as the manufacture they took their sounds from had no rights to protect their sound.

James.

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#288053 - 06/05/10 03:16 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
I don't see where the moral confusion comes from...

If you go out and sample a Fender Rhodes, and do a good job, it will take you WEEKS. You have to
meticulously record every note, at multiple velocities, carefully loop them (unless you are doing a GIGA thing
where you have enough memory to not need loops (that is NOT the case with arranger soundsets!)
and then carefully lay them out on the keyboard. A LOT of work. You expect to get PAID for that work...
Now someone comes along and samples YOUR samples. No weeks of work. No meticulous editing.
No hiring or buying the source instrument. No needing expensive mikes or pre's. Just copy the data.

If you can't make the connection between that and simple theft, you are lost, my friends... I simply hope no-one does what I posted in jest.
But if they were, what is the difference? You worked long and hard for what you own.
I hope that no-one does to you what you are saying it is alright to do to someone else. Ketron didn't sample
a T3 for their samples. They'd be in court right now if they did. And so will you, if you take this nonsense seriously.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 06-05-2010).]
_________________________
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#288054 - 06/05/10 04:06 PM Re: OS 4.3...
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
In the example above, how do you think the maker of the Fender Rhodes feels about all the hard work and money they put in to making the instrument in developing that instrument and now some one goes and samples the sound?
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#288055 - 06/05/10 04:19 PM Re: OS 4.3...
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
In the example above, how do you think the maker of the Fender Rhodes feels about all the hard work and money they put in to making the instrument in developing that instrument and now some one goes and samples the sound?


This is getting ridiculous!!

Following that, how about how Stradivarius would feel, or whoever it was that created the first piano, or Adolph Sax...I could go on and on...

Soundwaves can be freely sampled. Where DO you think Yamaha, Roland Korg et al, got THEIR rhodes samples??

And you can bet your bottom dollar they paid not one cent to Leo Fender, either before he died or to his descendants. Nor to messrs Sax and Stradivarius.

I repeat, a ridiculous argument.

What I DO agree with is that if I sold or gave away say, a full sample set CREATED by East West, then THAT is a breach of the licence of use. The samples THEY created. But their source sounds for sampling in the first place are not covered by any copyright.

A good analogy I think, could be sidewalk artists...They would own a copyright of whatever they paint on the sidewalk, BUT they have no copyright over either the paints they used, nor the sidewalk itself.

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#288056 - 06/06/10 12:30 AM Re: OS 4.3...
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Of course!
Everyone knows that there is no legal copyright of the source sound.
But what we are discussing is the financial effect it has on the source instrument.

If I have the Fender Rhodes sound on my Korg, Yamaha or Roland keyboard I get the benefit of having and using that sound with out Fender Rhodes getting any money.

They (Fender Rhodes) had put in all the RD and money in developing that instrument and being able to get that sound. Now someone comes and samples the sound of that instrument and includes it on their instruments. As a result, people do not buy the Fender Rhodes but buy the instrument that sampled the Fender Rhodes sounds. So the user gets the benefit of having a Fender Rhodes sound with out paying Fender Rhodes.


If I have the T3sounds on my MS keyboard I get the benefit of having and using the T3 sound with out Yamaha getting any money.

They (Yamaha) had put in all the RD and money in developing that instrument and being able to get that sound. Now someone comes and samples the sound of that instrument and includes it on their instruments. As a result, people do not buy the T3 but buy the instrument that sampled the T3 sounds. So the user gets the benefit of having a T3 sound with out paying Yamaha.

The concept of someone taking others work with out paying for it has been going on for many many years in the music business.
Its just that the law protects some and not others.
But it happens all in the name of development and progress.
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TTG

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#288057 - 06/06/10 07:12 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:

If I have the T3sounds on my MS keyboard I get the benefit of having and using the T3 sound with out Yamaha getting any money.



The point is, there are no T3 sounds, there are just sounds..

Because Tough Yamaha spend a lot of time creating those sounds, All they did in the end was copy those sounds from another source.

Same goes for the open systems but instead of a company copying and improving sounds... now there is the community copying and improving sounds..


And the same goes for Styles...

Did Yamaha ever pay a penny to the Strauss fammilly for adding those Waltz styles. Or even pay a penny for that "hardrockstyle7" that just happens to be exactly the same as a big hit from KISS, but beleive me, KISS or the record company have never seen a penny from that style.


I agree that Midi files and MP3's are of a different measure... but thats about it.


Overhere in the world of Open systems and community, its the community(ideally) creating the content, best excample is : James new string gigasamples created by James and shared with the community. If the Community grows and people start to share everyone becomes a happier person, tough noboddy will get rich from it, but everyone will be a happier person in the end.
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.

http://keyszone.boards.net

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#288058 - 06/06/10 12:06 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Is this the 'open' community that believes that ALL software should be free, or that ALL music, movies,
e-books etc., should be free? You know, the ones that are STEALING it and ruining the industries that produce that content?

This is unbelievable... that none of you can make the differentiation between sampling an ACOUSTIC instrument,
one of the most difficult processes in music, and sampling a sample... obviously, one of the easiest.
You are getting outraged at the wrong thing. No-one is saying it's any crime to go out and sample a violin, or a piano
or even a Rhodes. It's possibly a crime to market those as 'Fender Rhodes' or 'Steinway' without permission from the maker
(if he's still in business), but it's a long held accepted practice that sampling acoustic instruments (and out of
production synths, too) is legal. But it is NOT clear that you can sample for commercial use the samples contained
in a production, current keyboard. The operative word is 'commercial' use, and free distribution. In other words, yes
it's perfectly OK for you to sample a T3 for your own use ONLY, but it is illegal to distribute it. Just like a CD,
for instance. You can copy it legally for your own use, but you can't sell or share it.

But that some of you can't make the difference between sampling a Stradivarius and sampling an Audya
is baffling. It's the difference between writing a song, and someone copying that song... What's even more
disturbing is the complete lack of empathy (or guilt!) about your espoused theft of intellectual property. Can't
ANYONE put themselves in the position of someone who just spent a fortune making a TOTL soundset for
an arranger (you can't buy them at 'Samples-are-Us'!)
and someone says it's OK to copy your samples for free and distribute them to EVERYONE..?

Would you be happy if they did that? And if you wouldn't, you've answered your own question...

What amazes me is that James, who makes COMMERCIAL sample sets, isn't jumping in here and trying
to clear the issue up. Honestly, what you are saying is, it's OK to STEAL James' work... Just copy his data,
don't pay him a penny. Now, what do you think are the chances of him making another high quality set
for you to steal? Slim to none...

I am not saying it's wrong to sample a T3. All I am saying is it is illegal to distribute it. As is obvious from
your comments, the T2 set for the MS is so bad, it isn't a factor, but can you imagine Yamaha staying silent
should anyone do a GOOD job and clone their very expensively produced product to the point of indistinguishability..?
The samples that they MADE are theirs. Not yours, unless you buy their product, and then they are for your use only.

It's simple, when you think about it...

BTW, James CHOSE to make his string samples 'open'. But has he made his entire sample library 'open'?
The creator of a sample set MUST have the right to say whether they are 'open' or NOT. Or those that create
those great commercial sample sets will STOP making them. Does anyone REALLY want that?

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 06-06-2010).]
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#288059 - 06/06/10 01:03 PM Re: OS 4.3...
LIONSTRACS Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
mmmmm...again with this old story now...
Now IF I listen Diki start to be really a big problem..
I just dowloaded the new Giga Yammy soundbank, 1003 new, edited and mapped sounds: http://lionstracs.com/download/soundbank1.lscp
This all sounds I will include on the all new Groove that we shipping now from here..,
But for the all others old MS/Groove custumers what we make??
Do I have to DELETE this all sounds from my server OR someone there will have it for FREE??
IF someone there is interested on this new GIGA Yammy soundbank, have to write here: I WANT IT then I allow for the FREE download.
( I have only to see where to move this folder because is aroung 8.7Gb data..)
Now is really a morality, but I really want to see who is interested to have it and do not care about RESAMPLING cloning legallity.

Note also that I have started to download the new GIGA-AUDY soundbank and then the new GIGA-FantoG
IF you there are NOT interested of this new FREE giga sounds...no problems...

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#288060 - 06/06/10 01:28 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Quote:
Originally posted by LIONSTRACS:
mmmmm...again with this old story now...
Now IF I listen Diki start to be really a big problem..
I just dowloaded the new Giga Yammy soundbank, 1003 new, edited and mapped sounds: http://lionstracs.com/download/soundbank1.lscp
This all sounds I will include on the all new Groove that we shipping now from here..,
But for the all others old MS/Groove custumers what we make??
Do I have to DELETE this all sounds from my server OR someone there will have it for FREE??
IF someone there is interested on this new GIGA Yammy soundbank, have to write here: I WANT IT then I allow for the FREE download.
( I have only to see where to move this folder because is aroung 8.7Gb data..)
Now is really a morality, but I really want to see who is interested to have it and do not care about RESAMPLING cloning legallity.

Note also that I have started to download the new GIGA-AUDY soundbank and then the new GIGA-FantoG
IF you there are NOT interested of this new FREE giga sounds...no problems...


I just love it, free high quallity giga sounds, i'd say Yummy


And to Diki.... there is no difference between Yammaha sampling a fender rhodes and the open source community sampling the yamaha sample of a Fender Rhodes.

And the open source community is not about copying software for free, its all about creating software and sharing it for free.. But then you seem to have no clue at all that some people in this world still love to help others for free and share their experiences with them for free.
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.

http://keyszone.boards.net

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#288061 - 06/06/10 07:17 PM Re: OS 4.3...
vagro Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 321
Loc: Argentina
Quote:
Originally posted by LIONSTRACS:
mmmmm...again with this old story now...
Now IF I listen Diki start to be really a big problem..
I just dowloaded the new Giga Yammy soundbank, 1003 new, edited and mapped sounds: http://lionstracs.com/download/soundbank1.lscp
This all sounds I will include on the all new Groove that we shipping now from here..,
But for the all others old MS/Groove custumers what we make??
Do I have to DELETE this all sounds from my server OR someone there will have it for FREE??
IF someone there is interested on this new GIGA Yammy soundbank, have to write here: I WANT IT then I allow for the FREE download.
( I have only to see where to move this folder because is aroung 8.7Gb data..)
Now is really a morality, but I really want to see who is interested to have it and do not care about RESAMPLING cloning legallity.

Note also that I have started to download the new GIGA-AUDY soundbank and then the new GIGA-FantoG
IF you there are NOT interested of this new FREE giga sounds...no problems...


Dom I want them. I already have most of those T2 samples in my Psr s900 but I want them in my MsS too. And I'm also very interested in the Audya and FanoG Giga.
_________________________
Victor

Korg Pa3x 61 - Mediastation X76 - Yamaha Psr s900 - Korg Tr61 - Roland PK5A - NanoKontrol - Ensoniq SQ1 - Yamaha D85 organ

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#288062 - 06/06/10 07:21 PM Re: OS 4.3...
vagro Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 321
Loc: Argentina
Oh! I forgot.... I WANT IT
_________________________
Victor

Korg Pa3x 61 - Mediastation X76 - Yamaha Psr s900 - Korg Tr61 - Roland PK5A - NanoKontrol - Ensoniq SQ1 - Yamaha D85 organ

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#288063 - 06/06/10 07:33 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
Originally posted by vagro:
Oh! I forgot.... I WANT IT


+1

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#288064 - 06/06/10 07:46 PM Re: OS 4.3...
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
+1


+2

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#288065 - 06/06/10 09:56 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Quote:
Originally posted by vagro:
Dom I want them. I already have most of those T2 samples in my Psr s900 but I want them in my MsS too. And I'm also very interested in the Audya and FanoG Giga.


Quote:
Originally posted by vagro:
Oh! I forgot.... I WANT IT


+1

Even tough i don't have a lionstracs (yet) i am interested in those giga samples to use with my live-styler setup.

(Tough i can understand if you restrict this offer to Lionstracs owners only)
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.

http://keyszone.boards.net

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#288066 - 06/06/10 09:59 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Bachus, if the 'open' community wants a sampled Rhodes, go out and sample a Rhodes...

If you can't see the difference between that and sampling someone who already did all the WORK for you,
you aren't even trying.

There are people that thought that ALL music should be free, that no-one should EVER have to buy a CD again.
They traded mp3's around like bubblegum cards. Now the music industry is in collapse. If you can't get PAID
for your work, who is going to do it? Those people are now
being sued for copyright infringement. And if wholesale sampling of an entire arrangers' soundset
ever becomes more than a pipedream, and it becomes more than just a joke to the big boys,
you are going to see the lawyers come calling like they do to
big MP3 distributors and movie servers.

It's simple... do the sampling YOURSELF, no problem. Sample something that someone has ALREADY sampled
(or simply copy the data) and you are stealing their work. It can't be any more obvious than that...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#288067 - 06/06/10 11:30 PM Re: OS 4.3...
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Whether you sample the original instrument or sample someones samples, the effect is the same.
In both situations, you are causing some one to lose money.

You can not say one is OK an not the other.

If you want the Rhodes sound, buy a Rhodes

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 06-06-2010).]

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 06-06-2010).]
_________________________
TTG

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#288068 - 06/06/10 11:48 PM Re: OS 4.3...
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Whether you sample the original instrument or sample someones samples, the effect is the same.
In both situations, you are causing some one to lose money.

You can not say one is OK an not the other.

If you want the Rhodes sound, buy a Rhodes

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 06-06-2010).]

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 06-06-2010).]


And not a Motif ES, XS or a Kurzweil PC1SE, or any of the Rolands or , or , or

Yet another ridiculous statement on this ridiculous debate.

So you would agree that every sax sampler should pay a royalty to Adolph Saxs' descendants? And every one should also pay a royalty to Leo Fender and Harry Rhodes descendants too?
And the same for those Stradivarius samples?

It would be like trying to copyright air...We certainly did not create it, but we all use it for free...

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#288069 - 06/07/10 12:04 AM Re: OS 4.3...
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
It would be like trying to copyright air...We certainly did not create it, but we all use it for free...


And that statement demonstrates what the argument is not.

Yes we can not copyright air because we did not do any thing to create it.


However, a lot of work and time and money were put in to creating a Rhodes, sax and so on.
That is the point Diki is making.
The effect of having these sounds on a keyboard is that less people would buy the actual
instrument.

There is a counter point to my point but I am surprised no one has mentioned it as yet.


[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 06-07-2010).]
_________________________
TTG

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#288070 - 06/07/10 12:25 AM Re: OS 4.3...
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
With respect TTG, that is NOT the point Diki is trying to flog here.

In essence, he is saying that if James makes his OWN samples he is not able to sell them or give them away, because he sampled a soundwave.

Where the soundwave came from, is beside the point.

I DO agree that if, say, I bought James' samples, and then gave THEM away, THAT is where the copyright would be breached.

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#288071 - 06/07/10 12:26 AM Re: OS 4.3...
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
And I will add, that is not something I would EVER do to anyone. Be it sampled libraries, or songs.

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#288072 - 06/07/10 12:27 AM Re: OS 4.3...
LIONSTRACS Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
It would be like trying to copyright air...We certainly did not create it, but we all use it for free...

However, a lot of work and time and money were put in to creating a Rhodes, sax and so on.
That is the point Diki is making.



Correct..do you think that this sounds developer made the all BIG work just for fun?
No...they made this work because I have payed with some money and I gave a FREE Mediastation hardware.
This is the only way for have every time NEW sounds, but this NOT mean that cost nothing.

Developing 1000 giga sounds is not a game, need months of work and then when I ask 5 or 10 euro for the Server cost Fee ( we have a own server from Theplanet USA) I have to fight with people, because they do NOT want to pay also the miresable 5 euro or made a simple Donation...

Anyway I dont care to resell sounds, why IF one pay the 5 euro Fee, another 1000 then will copy..
I leave all Open GPL and then make all what you like.



[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 06-13-2010).]

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#288073 - 06/07/10 12:51 AM Re: OS 4.3...
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
With respect TTG, that is NOT the point Diki is trying to flog here.

In essence, he is saying that if James makes his OWN samples he is not able to sell them or give them away, because he sampled a soundwave.

Where the soundwave came from, is beside the point.

I DO agree that if, say, I bought James' samples, and then gave THEM away, THAT is where the copyright would be breached.



Yes Diki gave examples.
But the underlying concept of Dikis point is that some one put in hard work and lots of mony to create an instrument.
Some one now samples just the sound of that instrument. sampling the original instrument would stop the original instrument maker from producing that instrument.
Whether they (the new sample maker) gives it away or sell the new samples is irelivant. The original instrument maker, if they continue with their business model, could lose sales and revenue.
The effect would be the same whether the original instrument maker is the T3 or Rhodes IMO.

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 06-07-2010).]

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 06-07-2010).]
_________________________
TTG

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#288074 - 06/07/10 01:26 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
I don't believe I could have been any clearer, but possibly non-English readers are missing the details. I'll spell it out.

No... it is a well established right to be able to make sample sets from acoustic instruments. Sax, strings, pianos, Rhodes (but if you use brand names, you have to sometimes pay the manufacturer a fee - after all, you are leveraging their brand name to sell your samples)

No... I said at no point whatsoever that James does not have the right to sell or distribute for free any sample sets he has created himself (where on earth could anyone have got THAT point from?). BUT... he does NOT have the right to sample exhaustively a commercial keyboard that itself sampled the sounds in it, at considerable expense and then distribute it, either for free or for commercial gain. He can make his own string library, but if he copies another commercial sample set (which those in ROMplers are, as the cost of the instrument includes the cost of the samples) he is stealing others' work.

I believe that you are either deliberately or unconsciously avoiding the TRUE point I have been trying to get over... Every keyboard manufacturer EXCEPT open keyboards spend a FORTUNE developing their soundsets for them. They DO NOT sample each others' sounds, the piano in a T3 is totally different to the piano in a PA2Xpro, etc.. The saxes, the strings, every last sound (with the possible exception of legacy drum sounds from Roland, which are no longer in production and have passed into the realm of public domain) is developed by each manufacturer themselves. At a VERY high cost.

And now, you think it OK to copy them and give them away for free... (or even worse, sell them).

THAT, and that alone is the point I am trying to get over. Yes, you can do this yourself, for your own uses ONLY (even commercial use on a work for hire MIGHT be a breach of copyright), but you can't distribute it, you can't sell it. You aren't distributing your own work. You are distributing the work that others have done, and NOT given you permission to do.

Try this... write to Yamaha, tell them you intend to clone every sound in a T3, and then you intend to sell it for an open keyboard to use. Or even give it away widely. See if they think that you can do this!

I'm sorry, but you are grasping at straws. Just like the issue with Ketron styles... sure, you WANT them to be copyright free, so you can steal them. But the FACT is, they ARE copyrighted, and you have to have a Ketron product to be able to use them legally. Same deal with samples. They ARE copyrighted. Find out from the manufacturer themselves before you ASSUME that it is OK to steal their stuff...

Where does all this stealing end? Do you think it is OK to use cracked versions of all the VSTi's you intend to use? Or a pirated version of the Ketron or Yamaha style players? I mean, is there ANY line you are not willing to cross?

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 06-07-2010).]
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#288075 - 06/07/10 02:13 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Diki.
You would put Harry Houdini to shame for avoiding what's in front of him. I ask you one question and you STILL do not answer me. So for the third time here goes.

Where do you think all keyboard manufactures get their sounds from?

Forget what you think about everything else and just answer that question. When you do, then apply the answer to your logic and you will see how it does not fit in at all with your concept of what copyright law on this issue is. I've had this debate countless times in all my years and nobody can prove it in writing what is right or wrong regarding this subject. All anyone can do is point out the obviously which is that everyone, Yamaha, KORG, Roland and everyone else are all at it.

So.... if everyone is at it and this is something you cannot disagree with,.... well what does that say to you?

James

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#288076 - 06/07/10 02:34 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Where do all the manufacturers get their sounds from? Well, one thing is certain. They don't get them from sampling another manufacturer's keyboards! They have teams that create the samples themselves. Honestly, James, I didn't answer the question because I thought it was a joke!

The string samples in a Motif were NOT sampled off a Roland. The piano sound in a Ketron was NOT copied from a Korg... The SA2 sax samples in a T3 were NOT copied from a Casio...

In the synth world, there's a fair bit of sampling out of production keyboards for their basic waveforms, but once again, the operative word is 'out of production'. Roland do not sample the factory presets of an M3 for the FantomG.

Or are you claiming they DO...?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

Top
#288077 - 06/07/10 02:50 PM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Diki I'm not saying you are wrong.

but when you are sampling a harware music instrument, you still use the sound of a music instrument !!!!!


I give an example:

We have a painting and is copyrighted.
We have good scanner and we scan the painting. So here we infringe copyright if we do that without permission.

why for musical sound on analog synth and real instruments sounds, no copyright, but once they are digitaly sampled they are copyrighted?

In short, if you use real Intrument free sound source to make samples for your hardware instrument, and sell you're honest?????????

that's theft. why:

You make nothing new from the beginning. you do not make any new music instrument.

you scan something and make a copy (just like the painting)

I think you know that any real instrument or analog synth sound has a certain character which makes that instruments unique or not????

So if the law says this is better or not:

You can copyright what you played with a music instrument, but not the sound the instrument produces.

if a source has not a copyright then the copy can not be copyrighted too.

if the source has copyright you You must have permission from source holder to copy and copyright your works.

as a supporter of copyright,
I want that real Intrument and anlog synth makers are protected by copyright for their unique sound. because they are the source and not other companies who make samples for there hardware.

becouse:

sampling=scan somthing=digital copy of something.

copyrighted source=permission from source holder to copy and copyright your works

no copyrighted source=you can use or copy without permission, but you have no right to copyright your work.

digital hardware music instrument sound= the source real instument and analog synth sound

are you here agree?!?!



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-07-2010).]

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#288078 - 06/07/10 03:21 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
They don't get them from sampling another manufacturer's keyboards


If you truly believe that then there is utterly no hope for you at all.

Ever single sound on your keyboard comes from sampling different sources. The keyboard is PCM based an totally unable to produce any sound on its own. Everything from a sampling a B3 to a 30 year old Analogue Synth goes into making your keyboard. This $hit doesn't magically appear on your keyboard just because some designer twiddles a knob. Where else do you honestly think the sounds come from ? lol... Don't know if I should laugh or cry for you.

It even doesn't matter what the end result sounds like, the source data is always taken from another product and this is the ONLY way any PCM based keybaord can work. It's the same for PCM based VSTi's too. This is the way everything works Diki regardless of what you think.

Here.. choke on this list and then click the link I put in at the end and read.

Access Virus Indigo
Access Virus A
Access Virus B
Access Virus C
Akai AX-80
Akai-S-612 sampler
Akai S-900 sampler
Akai S-1000 sampler
Akai S-6000 sampler
ARP String Ensemble
Casio VL-Tone
Chamberlin Tape sampler
Commodore 64
Doepfer modular
EDP Wasp Deluxe
Elka String Machine
Emu Modular (Custom)
Ensoniq Mirage
Fairlight CMI
Farfisa Organ
Fender Rhodes
Hammond B-3/C-3 Organs
Kawai K-5000 additive synth
Korg EX-8000
Korg M1-REX
Korg Monopoly
Korg Z1 EVL
Korg Prophecy
Kurzweil K-2000
Kurzeil K-2500
Logan Strings
Mattel Optigan
Mellotron
Hans Zimmer Custom Moog Modular
Moog 55 Modular
Moog Minimoog (Studio Electronics modified)
Nord Lead
Oberheim 4-voice SEM style analog synth
Oberheim OBXA
Oberheim OB8
Oberheim S.E.Ms
Oberheim Xpander
Polyfusion Modular Synth
PPG Wave 2.2
Roland Jupiter 8
Roland Jupiter 4
Roland Juno 60
Roland MKS-80 Super Jupiter
Roland MKS-70 Super JX
Roland MKS-50 Alpha Juno
Roland Modular System 700
Roland Modular System 100m
Custom Modular Synths
Roland TB-303
Roland S-760 samplers
Roland S-770 sampler
Roland JX-3P
Roland JX-10
Roland JD-800
Roland JD-990
Roland D-50
Roland JP-8000
Roland JV-90
Roland JV-1080
Roland JV-2080
Roland JP-8080
Roland JP-8000
Roland Paraphonic 505
Roland RS-09
Roland SH-2000
Roland VP-330 Vocoder
Roland XV-5080
Sequential Circuits Prophet 5
Sequential Circuits Prophet VS
Sequential Circuits Pro One
Studio Electronics Omega 8
Suzuki Omnichord
Vako Orchestron
Vox Continental
Waldorf Q
Waldorf Wave
Waldorf Microwave
Waldorf Microwave XT
Yamaha CS-01
Yamaha CS-80
Yamaha DX-7
Yamaha TX-816
Metasynth
Rhizomatic Absynth
Logic Sculpture
Logic EXS24
Logic ES-2
Propellerheads Maelstrom
Audioease thOnk
Audionerdz Delay Lama
Cycling '74 PGS-1
Cycling '74 Shape Synth
Kantos
Kyma
Native Instruments Absynth
Native Instruments B-4
Native Instruments Pro-52
Native Instruments Reaktor
reFX JunoX2
reFX Vangaurd
reFX QudraSID
reFX PlasiCZ
Rumpelrausch Taips ZR1
Steinberg Model E
Waldorf Attack
Waldorf PPG 2.V
Bitheadz Unity DS-1

NOW CLICK HERE

I ain't say it's right or wrong that people do this. I'm just pointing out the facts that YOUR WRONG.

Not that you will ever accept that. It's sort of the Diki condition. Always right even when totally wrong.

James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 06-07-2010).]

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#288079 - 06/07/10 03:22 PM Re: OS 4.3...
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I Just like the issue with Ketron styles... sure, you WANT them to be copyright free, so you can steal them. But the FACT is, they ARE copyrighted, and you have to have a Ketron product to be able to use them legally. Sa

Where does all this stealing end? D.]


And you can guarantee you have NO 3rd party styles (including converted styles) on your keyboards, or on your PC?

You can guarantee you have NO samples on your PC, perhaps "lent" to you by your colleagues in the recording industry? NONE whatsoever?

I really do not expect a straight answer on this, but I thought I would ask....

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#288080 - 06/07/10 03:25 PM Re: OS 4.3...
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Oh and EVERY MP3 (or AAC file) on your PC has been paid for, or is a direct copy of a CD you actually bought?

And EVERY bit of software on your PC is all bought, none "borrowed"?

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#288081 - 06/07/10 03:29 PM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
guys:
did you read my post too????????


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#288082 - 06/07/10 03:54 PM Re: OS 4.3...
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
Diki I'm not saying you are wrong.

but when you are sampling a harware music instrument, you still use the sound of a music instrument !!!!!


I give an example:

We have a painting and is copyrighted.
We have good scanner and we scan the painting. So here we infringe copyright if we do that without permission.

why for musical sound on analog synth and real instruments sounds, no copyright, but once they are digitaly sampled they are copyrighted?

In short, if you use real Intrument free sound source to make samples for your hardware instrument, and sell you're honest?????????

that's theft. why:

You make nothing new from the beginning. you do not make any new music instrument.

you scan something and make a copy (just like the painting)

I think you know that any real instrument or analog synth sound has a certain character which makes that instruments unique or not????

So if the law says this is better or not:

if a source has not a copyright then the copy can not be copyrighted too.

if the source has copyright you You must have permission from source holder to copy and copyright your works.

as a supporter of copyright,
I want that real Intrument and anlog synth makers are protected by copyright for their unique sound. because they are the source and not other companies who make samples for there hardware.

becouse:

sampling=scan somthing=digital copy of something.

copyrighted source=permission from source holder to copy and copyright your works

no copyrighted source=you can use or copy without permission, but you have no right to copyright your work.

digital hardware music instrument sound= the source real instument and analog synth sound

are you here agree?!?!


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-07-2010).]


Finally some one sees that sampling affects Acoustic instruments. People dont seem to realize that a lot of hard work and money went in to creating an acoustic instrument that has a particular sound.
Most people think that an acoustic instrument maker should not have any protection.


But the company that samples an acoustic instrument should get protection and not have to pay the acoustic instrument maker.

And the company that clones the samples should not have protection but should pay the instrument maker.

Where is the fairness and consistency in this?
_________________________
TTG

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#288083 - 06/07/10 04:13 PM Re: OS 4.3...
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Finally some one sees that sampling affects Acoustic instruments. People dont seem to realize that a lot of hard work and money went in to creating an acoustic instrument that has a particular sound.
Most people think that an acoustic instrument maker should not have any protection.


But the company that samples an acoustic instrument should get protection and not have to pay the acoustic instrument maker.

And the company that clones the samples should not have protection but should pay the instrument maker.

Where is the fairness and consistency in this?


I disagree. I think we ALL know that it takes years (still does) to make a decent acoustic instrument. And that people DO benefit from re-creating that sound via sampling.

And I knew what you were alluding to in your post re no-one raising the "counter-point".

And who knows MAYBE all the companies that have sampled these keyboards HAVE paid some sort of fee, maybe they bought the instrument. (Although in the case of Yamaha, they actually make the acoustic pianos in the first place )

So does buying the actual instrument give one a licence to then freely sample the sound of that instrument, to distribute or do with as they will?

And if you agree with that, you MUST ergo agree that it is acceptable should one buy a Motif keyboard, for example. Sample the sound it produces and then sell or give away that sampling.

Because I know industry people out here that DO sample acoustic instruments and then use the samples in projects, that they then sell.

Look, there is no clear answer here on this issue. You get the self-righteous, and then you get the pragmatists. Idealists and realists are at opposite ends and usually never meet.

And I would hazard a guess that NO-ONE on this forum has not received some benefit from, or been given, shared software, music, styles, samples, whatever.

So in principle, no-one here is truly qualified to take any high ground moral superiority over anyone else.

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#288084 - 06/07/10 04:18 PM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Dennis,

but who first made the piano is the one that should be protected by copyright and not yamaha that make a copy from first piano.
but you can copyright the songs you made with yamaha piano.

I have explained in my post,

Other examples:

You can copyright what you write or draw with a pencil, but you Can not copyright the pencil itself.

so hardware music instruments sounds are just like a pencil.

hardware music instruments sound=real music instruments sound, analog synths sound, digital music instumrnts sound(digital is simple a copy from real instruments and analog synth but not a new music intrument).




[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-07-2010).]

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#288085 - 06/07/10 04:47 PM Re: OS 4.3...
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Yes I agree AFG, up to a point, but I tend to be in the pragmatic, or realists camp when it comes to this issue.

Going on that principle, whoever first came up with the recipe for scones, should also get a fee from anyone in the world who follows that recipe for making them.

And a personal recipe is a creation of one person, much the same as software, or a sample is.

I could go on with many more examples, silly? ABSOLUTELY!!! yes I know, but that is the underlying principle of the argument.

Further, again following the principle espoused by a few here, anything, anywhere, created by a human should be protected, and the creator and their descendants receive ongoing royalty payments.

That is why I call this a ridiculous argument. But people only want to see their own self-righteous views.

I can TOTALLY understand, again up to a point, where TTG, and Diki and others are coming from with their arguments on this.
And they do argue their views with passion, but its a totally impractical position to take in my view, for reasons I have already mentioned in other posts.

But hey, if it makes them feel better about themselves to think they believe (and PRACTICE!! this philosophy) in this, who am I to say different

Dennis

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#288086 - 06/07/10 05:02 PM Re: OS 4.3...
vagro Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 321
Loc: Argentina
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:

Access Virus Indigo
Access Virus A
Access Virus B
Access Virus C
Akai AX-80
Akai-S-612 sampler
Akai S-900 sampler
Akai S-1000 sampler
Akai S-6000 sampler
ARP String Ensemble
Casio VL-Tone
Chamberlin Tape sampler
Commodore 64
Doepfer modular
EDP Wasp Deluxe
Elka String Machine
Emu Modular (Custom)
Ensoniq Mirage
Fairlight CMI
Farfisa Organ
Fender Rhodes
Hammond B-3/C-3 Organs
Kawai K-5000 additive synth
Korg EX-8000
Korg M1-REX
Korg Monopoly
Korg Z1 EVL
Korg Prophecy
Kurzweil K-2000
Kurzeil K-2500
Logan Strings
Mattel Optigan
Mellotron
Hans Zimmer Custom Moog Modular
Moog 55 Modular
Moog Minimoog (Studio Electronics modified)
Nord Lead
Oberheim 4-voice SEM style analog synth
Oberheim OBXA
Oberheim OB8
Oberheim S.E.Ms
Oberheim Xpander
Polyfusion Modular Synth
PPG Wave 2.2
Roland Jupiter 8
Roland Jupiter 4
Roland Juno 60
Roland MKS-80 Super Jupiter
Roland MKS-70 Super JX
Roland MKS-50 Alpha Juno
Roland Modular System 700
Roland Modular System 100m
Custom Modular Synths
Roland TB-303
Roland S-760 samplers
Roland S-770 sampler
Roland JX-3P
Roland JX-10
Roland JD-800
Roland JD-990
Roland D-50
Roland JP-8000
Roland JV-90
Roland JV-1080
Roland JV-2080
Roland JP-8080
Roland JP-8000
Roland Paraphonic 505
Roland RS-09
Roland SH-2000
Roland VP-330 Vocoder
Roland XV-5080
Sequential Circuits Prophet 5
Sequential Circuits Prophet VS
Sequential Circuits Pro One
Studio Electronics Omega 8
Suzuki Omnichord
Vako Orchestron
Vox Continental
Waldorf Q
Waldorf Wave
Waldorf Microwave
Waldorf Microwave XT
Yamaha CS-01
Yamaha CS-80
Yamaha DX-7
Yamaha TX-816
Metasynth
Rhizomatic Absynth
Logic Sculpture
Logic EXS24
Logic ES-2
Propellerheads Maelstrom
Audioease thOnk
Audionerdz Delay Lama
Cycling '74 PGS-1
Cycling '74 Shape Synth
Kantos
Kyma
Native Instruments Absynth
Native Instruments B-4
Native Instruments Pro-52
Native Instruments Reaktor
reFX JunoX2
reFX Vangaurd
reFX QudraSID
reFX PlasiCZ
Rumpelrausch Taips ZR1
Steinberg Model E
Waldorf Attack
Waldorf PPG 2.V
Bitheadz Unity DS-1

NOW CLICK HERE


[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 06-07-2010).]


I WANT IT!
_________________________
Victor

Korg Pa3x 61 - Mediastation X76 - Yamaha Psr s900 - Korg Tr61 - Roland PK5A - NanoKontrol - Ensoniq SQ1 - Yamaha D85 organ

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#288087 - 06/08/10 12:59 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Spalding 4 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/07/07
Posts: 96
Loc: UK
on the spectronic site it says :

"The company innovated right from the beginning: In 1994, Spectrasonics was the first sample developer to guarantee its products as 100% "Copyright Clean."

Perhaps thats why they were abe to use the instruments in the above list. just an idea
http://www.spectrasonics.net/companyinfo/about-spectra.php

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#288088 - 06/08/10 02:47 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Taike Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 2807
Loc: Xingyi, Guizhou (China)
_________________________
最猖獗的人权侵犯 者讨论其他国 家的人权局势而忽略本国严重的人权 问题是何等伪善。

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#288089 - 06/08/10 04:07 AM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
All articles are about song sampling, but not about instruments sounds sampling.

Sampling of a song you break copyright if you do not have permession from source, because you scan someone else's creation.

but with sound sampling from sample based hardware music instument, the sound is not creation of sample company, but a scan from real instruments or analog synth sound,

so the source is not sample company but real instruments and analog synth makers.

These are the sounds and not songs.

I give an example,

I'm going to record English alphabet letters and characters on a tape, or better i make a sample based instrument with English alphabet letters and characters as a sound,

then you have no right to using the letters and characters any more becouse as you begin to speak you are using my sound!?!?!?!?

is better or not to see instruments sounds like alphabet which you can use to make words and sentences(songs).

harware music instrument sounds= scan of a realinstruments sounds,analog synth sounds,other hardware music instument sounds

so sample based hardware music instumrnt sounds is not a new music instrument but a digital copy of other sounds.

why on source(realinstruments sounds,analog synth sounds) not copyright but on digital instruments sound copyright????????????

music instrumnts sounds are, like a pencil that you used to draw or write.

so then you most have copyright on a pincel too??????????

if we have copyright on a pincel, then every sample company has broken copyright too by using a scan(sampler) to make digital copy from real instuments and analog synth sounds.......(they make a scan without permession from source holder)

so if you say that real instruments and analog synth sounds are open source, then every sample company has broken GPL license when they copyright the sampled sounds.

GPL license says you can change and modify or copy the source but share the source you have made from first source.

a digital music instruments sound sample is a change and modify or copy from source(real instrument and analog synth)

GPL license says also you can sell or distribute the source you have made, but others have right to see copy or change and modify your source and sell or distribute too.............

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-08-2010).]

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#288090 - 06/08/10 05:18 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Spalding 4 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/07/07
Posts: 96
Loc: UK
The discussion needs to be clear what copywrite is. It is legal protection to prevent anyone from using or altering or claiming authorship your work without your permission to do it whether that be commercially or for no monetary gain. It has nothing to do with what effort or money or creativity was put in to creat the work.

The simple question is :

Has the work been registered under copywrite ?

If it has thenthe copywrite laws apply. If it hasnt then anyone can use it at will without any fear of the law.

So if yamaha's or korgs or whoever have not copywrited the sounds from their instruments ( i dont even know if this is practically possible) then its all fair game.

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#288091 - 06/09/10 12:12 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Just so I don't get accused of ignoring yet another absurd point...

No, I can't say I don't have any translated styles, or even some mp3's...

But I am NOT trying to excuse it or say that it is legal...

It may indeed be a common practice. Doesn't make it legal or ethical, though.

The point I think you are missing, James, is the degree of scale. Spectrasonics didn't set out to clone each and every factory preset in a current commercial product. In fact, the reason their products are so popular is that they made BETTER sounds than the originals, by combining stacks of synths, and the amazing sound design of Eric Persing. But what you are proposing is the outright cloning of an entire instrument, for the sole purpose of not having to buy it in the first place (but you SURE want to use their sounds) to be able to play its' styles...

If you can't see that as a paradigm shift from what synth samplers were doing, I honestly believe you are not trying.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#288092 - 06/09/10 08:43 AM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
D-i-k-i

why Yamaha does not do anything against this.....................?

Why Yamaha will not warning Lionstracs???
are they crazy to remain calm and do nothing if is illegal what Lionstracs sound Developers are doing??????????

do you think that Domenico risk the existence of his company to start with this without knowing anything about Law about this?????????

he's much smarter than you think.

sure he thought about everything.

So why are you glowing more then Light Bulb(Yamaha) itself???????????

declaration against copyright infringement is not expensive for Yamaha or else?????


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-09-2010).]

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#288093 - 06/09/10 01:03 PM Re: OS 4.3...
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:


1.Just so I don't get accused of ignoring yet another absurd point...

2.No, I can't say I don't have any translated styles, or even some mp3's...

3.But I am NOT trying to excuse it or say that it is legal...

4.It may indeed be a common practice. Doesn't make it legal or ethical, though.

T


Couple of things...

1.these were from me, and not James.
They were questions, NOT points!! (and not absurd at all, quite simple and straightforward I thought.)

2. So on principle you are railing strongly against the sharing of stuff, but your reply (honest too ) shows that in real life you are just the same as everyone else.

3. Neither am I, neither is James or anyone else for that matter, what YOU are missing are subtle distinctions. You keep painting with broad stokes.

4.Agree!

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#288094 - 06/09/10 11:28 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6482
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I don't believe I could have been any clearer, but possibly non-English readers are missing the details. I'll spell it out.

No... it is a well established right to be able to make sample sets from acoustic instruments. Sax, strings, pianos, Rhodes (but if you use brand names, you have to sometimes pay the manufacturer a fee - after all, you are leveraging their brand name to sell your samples)


Ummmm are you saying Rhodes isn't a brand name? I think it most definately is ... there is no question about that. It was owned by CBS and now is owned again by Rhodes Piano who are making the current generation of Rhodes electric pianos.

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#288095 - 06/09/10 11:36 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6482
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Though I must admit companies like Yamaha have been careful not to mention the "Rhodes" brand name though I don't think for a second their suitcase electric pianos didn't use Rhodes samples.

Maybe they should be confronted regarding this .... I dunno about the rest of you but this argument is getting very tiring not to mention quite hypocritical. How bout we leave this to the corporate lawyers cos whatever we decide doesn't matter a damn
Let's just get back to playing music with whatever samples we have at our disposal.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 06-09-2010).]

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#288096 - 06/10/10 02:09 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Well, certain words, after long enough popular usage, become part of the language. In the UK we write with a biro... children playing with plastic blocks are playing Lego, whether they made them or not. And so on. Once upon a time, the saxophone was patented... now it's what we use for all instruments like that...

Look, here's the point I think I have been trying to make all along. So far, any attempt to clone an entire instrument has been a pathetic joke at best. But let's just say, for argument's sake, that sooner or later someone is going to get it RIGHT... Now let's posit that eventually, ALL new keyboards will be cloned. Now let's think about the consequences of that...

If open keyboards become more popular, as is inevitable, and most other keyboard's soundsets are cloned, what does that do to the bottom line of the cloned keyboard? Yep, that's right. They go out of business. Now, where do you get any new sounds from? Who is left to steal from? Each other?

I believe that so far we haven't seen litigation from the majors about this issue because, at this point, it IS a joke... but, if it ever becomes a reality... If there's one thing the whole Napster thing should have taught any intellectual property industry, it's that you can't afford to wait until it IS a major problem. Because by then, it's too late.

You know, there's one thing I haven't heard James chime in on... And I'd REALLY like an answer to this. You make COMMERCIAL sample libraries, don't you James? You have samples that you have painstakingly created, lovingly edited, carefully assembled, and think that they might be of commercial value... (I hope I am not misremembering this). So let's say you offer up a carefully crafted set of samples for sale.

Can ANYONE copy them for free? Is it OK with you that they don't pay you..? Oh, and give copies away to everyone on the planet that wants them? Please answer this one...

Seriously, James, have you ever considered what this means? Let us just assume that everyone BUT me is right on this issue. There is NO SUCH THING as copyright. Styles, sounds, software, music, none of it has any protection at all... I mean, if everyone's OK with copying every sound out of an Audya, why not every sound off a Madonna CD? (it's all just waveforms, ain't it? )

Is it just me, or doesn't anyone see any serious consequences to rampant piracy? Honestly, are you ALL amateurs, or is there someone on this thread that makes a living recording music? Producing samples? Creating music software..?

Because, if you DO, this thread should scare the sh*t out of you.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#288097 - 06/10/10 03:36 AM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
nobody has said that copyright does not exist. but some things are not copyrighted, that is what is being said Diki.

remember I was first one who have all noted that Yamaha has won a copyright lawsuit in 2008:
http://www.global.yamaha.com/news/2008/20080508.html

so if Yamaha has claimed that Yamaha is first company which proposed copyright to rom styles,

what they mean?
that it is first time, and Yamaha is first company?
and why in 2008?
and why The Courts judgment was the first in the world ?
and why only in China?

and read this part of Article:

The Courts judgment was the first in the world to recognize that Style Data is intellectual property that is subject to protection under copyright laws and that unauthorized copying of such Style Data is an infringement of copyrights. Yamaha believes this judgment is an epoch-making legal development and holds the content of the settlement arbitrated by the Court in high regard since it recognizes virtually all of Yamahas assertions. Looking ahead, Yamaha will continue to work to respect and protect intellectual property and to take a resolute stand against the infringement of intellectual property rights.

----What does this mean?--------

-----------------------------
--------------------------------
-------------------------
and if Yamaha do not do anything, it means that something more is going on, with law on sampling sample based hardware music instrument sound.


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-10-2010).]

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#288098 - 06/10/10 04:36 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Spalding 4 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/07/07
Posts: 96
Loc: UK
this means quite clearly that the copying of styles is illegal and yamaha have successfully used the copywrite laws to protect them from piracy.

It doesnt say anything about the sounds...

I wonder if Yamaha are aware of Liontracs business model ?

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#288099 - 06/10/10 05:56 AM Re: OS 4.3...
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5304
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Diki
If you look in the terms and conditions of the large sample sets, you will find they are protected by law, and you can neither copy nor clone them, so I cannot see the point in your post, when the answer to your question has been in black and white for years.

Hi Spalding
Yamaha are well aware of what other companies are doing

Comparison suggestions
Compare the same name styles of the big 3 and you will find they all sound very similar in makeup, so who copied who, and why there is no litigation between them.
Regards

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#288100 - 06/10/10 06:17 AM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by Spalding 4:
this means quite clearly that the copying of styles is illegal and yamaha have successfully used the copywrite laws to protect them from piracy.

It doesnt say anything about the sounds...

I wonder if Yamaha are aware of Liontracs business model ?


read the article better:

The court was first one world wide who recognize copyright on rom styles and only in China and Yamaha is first companhy claim this.

such as the article claims


-----------------------------
for sure they know Lionstracs, and also what Lionstracs doing.

There was even one of Big 3 ready to take over Lionstracs.................but Domenico did not sell Lionstracs Italy.



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-10-2010).]

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#288101 - 06/10/10 07:06 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi Diki.

Quote:
You know, there's one thing I haven't heard James chime in on... And I'd REALLY like an answer to this.


I haven't really bothered because I've had this discussion on KORG Forums for 10 years. I've also seen this discussed on every other forum and the end result is always the same.

Look... I'll roll all this into one and answer every question at the same time.

I cannot copyright my sounds. I can only copyright my work. When you buy a copy of one of my sample libraries you are buying the right to download a copy of my work for your personal use and to use it royalty free in your work. This means you get all my hard work in a state that requires no effort on your behalf to use, and you can use that material to write music with without any fear of having to pay me royalties.

However.... If you create a copy of my sample library and sell it, then yes you have just broken the law because you have just created a copy of my finished product, and my work. To create this copy you did not have to sample it or use any special tools. You copied my data in whole and therefore you are now in possession of two identical copies.

Now lets apply some of this to a keyboard so you can see the difference between the ability to copyright, steal and create copies of it and so on....

1: Lets say you buy a KORG Pa2X. You cannot create a copy of a keyboard because it's a physical object and therefore cannot be stolen and resold as a copy.

2: You cannot copyright the sound it produces for all the same reason KORG would have been allowed to sample the instruments they did to create the PCM data in the first place.

3:However, KORG can copyright their work and this is the only thing you guys should be trying to break down and discuss. This is where the argument comes in and the questions of what you can and cannot do.

Here are some ways I could break the law by creating a copy of KORG's work.

It would be illegal for me to create a computer program that converts a KORG PCG file from one format to another as this file gives me direct access to KORG's work in such a way that I can steal it.

It would be illegal for me to take a factory sound and to strip back the sound engine in order to sample the raw PCM data unprocessed by the engine. This is illegal because now I'm sampling KORG's work. Again, the sound is not copyrighted, it's their work that being copied only in this case.

So now lets flip that last one around and make good of it. If I take a KORG and use the data within the keyboard and the sound engine to modify that data (someone elses recordings), then it's new work and my property to sample and sell. That's why I posted the link to Spectrasonic above. You can see all the keyboards they sampled. Many of which are even PCM based so spectrasonic have taken someone else's recordings and used the keyboard to shape them into recording they claimed as their own.

This is done the world over and exactly how all PCM based libraries and keyboards are made.

I'll leave it at that. There's much to discuss on all this but you must focus on the only issue that matters which is the ability for one to copyright their work.

Regards
James

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#288102 - 06/10/10 07:07 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
read the article better:

The court was first one world wide who recognize copyright on rom styles and only in China and Yamaha is first companhy claim this.

such as the article claims



Most of the Yamaha styles available are not ROM styles either, i can allways buy Yamaha styles and use them on Lionstracs.. or live-styler.

And user developed and shared (Yamaha formet) styles are most of the time free.
_________________________
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#288103 - 06/10/10 11:14 AM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by Bachus:
Most of the Yamaha styles available are not ROM styles either, i can allways buy Yamaha styles and use them on Lionstracs.. or live-styler.

And user developed and shared (Yamaha formet) styles are most of the time free.



i know that,i mean something else.........

something that has copyright somewhere in the world, has in a different place no copyright,
that is the point that you can see from that article.

the court was the only worldwide, and only in China and first court, which recognizes Copyright on Yamaha Rom Styles............

what you are saying to me about purchase Yamaha-Ketron-Roland.......... styles or third party styles , I have long before said on another topic to others.

Search the topic


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-10-2010).]

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#288104 - 06/10/10 02:58 PM Re: OS 4.3...
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
AFG. Dom Liontrac is walking on very thin ice. The copywrite laws in China are substantially the same in the US and the rest of the western Nations. China has signed up to the Berne Convention and the decade-old Agreement on Trade Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights .

If you are hinting that yamaha could not win a copywrite case like this outside of china you could not be more wrong.....

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#288105 - 06/10/10 02:59 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
James, what is the difference between the samples that YOU made, and the samples that Yamaha made?

Why should YOURS not be copied, but Yamaha's can...?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#288106 - 06/10/10 03:36 PM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
AFG. Dom Liontrac is walking on very thin ice. The copywrite laws in China are substantially the same in the US and the rest of the western Nations. China has signed up to the Berne Convention and the decade-old Agreement on Trade Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights .

If you are hinting that yamaha could not win a copywrite case like this outside of china you could not be more wrong.....


where have you seen I have said what you say???

I even said to Diki here:

D-i-k-i

why Yamaha does not do anything against this.....................?

Why Yamaha will not warning Lionstracs???
are they crazy to remain calm and do nothing if is illegal what Lionstracs sound Developers are doing??????????

do you think that Domenico risk the existence of his company to start with this without knowing anything about Law about this?????????

he's much smarter than you think.

sure he thought about everything.

So why are you glowing more then Light Bulb(Yamaha) itself???????????

declaration against copyright infringement is not expensive for Yamaha or else?????

and I have clearly written to you:

read the article better:

The court was first one world wide who recognize copyright on rom styles and only in China and Yamaha is first companhy claim this.

such as the article claims

again:


such as the article claims


again:


such as the article claims


it was not my article but from Yamaha........


and spalding1968 you talking about something that you do not know how to write:

Copyright and not and not the way you write copywrite.

My English is bad, but I know what you wrote means something different...........

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-10-2010).]

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#288107 - 06/10/10 04:42 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi Diki.

The only difference is in how it's packaged. I give you the raw files (my complete work) to access, Yamaha does not. Their data is encoded onto a chip and all you ever have access to is the recording they took from someone else product.

So Yamaha have as much right to the sound as the guys that build the instrument they took the sound from. If they were to bring a lawsuit against you for sampling a sound, they would have to explain their own activities.

Regards
James

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#288108 - 06/10/10 04:46 PM Re: OS 4.3...
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
AFG this is what you said

'something that has copyright somewhere in the world, has in a different place no copyright,
that is the point that you can see from that article.

the court was the only worldwide, and only in China and first court, which recognizes Copyright on Yamaha Rom Styles...'

If i have misunderstood you it is because of what you wrote. The fact that China was the first place to recognise copyright of styles means what to you ? That only china will recognise this international right ? Or its the first time yamaha pursued a company for piracy of its styles ?

Dont worry about my spelling. Thats just pettiness. Concentrate on the substance of the argument. If the styles are intellectual property and anyone has used them contrary to the authors permission without purchasing them then it is an infringment of the international copyright agreements. No doubt the 4 companies in China felt that yamaha would not or could not pursue them just like Liontracs.They had traded for several years using yamaha styles .....but they got CAUGHT EVENTUALLY . And that is the real point of the article.

The fact that It happened in china fisrt is irrelevant.

Perhaps you had better read the article again yourself.

Here are the salient points.

'The Courts judgment recognized virtually all of Yamahas assertions and contained the following major points:
(1) The Court recognized that Style Data is intellectual property that is to be protected under copyright laws.
(2) The Court recognized that Yamaha holds the copyright to the 26 Style Data that were examined and deliberated.
(3) In addition to recognizing that the actions of the defendants were violations of copyrights, the Court issued orders forbidding the use of Yamahas 26 Style Data in the defendants products and forbidding the sale of products incorporating Yamahas 26 Style Data. The Court also ordered the defendants to pay compensation for damages to Yamaha and to publish an apology in the newspapers.'

I dont know why yamaha have not pursued dom yet but it certainly is not because they cant. An international precedent has already been set. My guess is when Liontracs becomes big enough to be worthwhile sueing Dom will hear from some lawyers.

And please dont tell me how smart dom is. He is arrogant not smart.

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-10-2010).]

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#288109 - 06/10/10 05:15 PM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513

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#288110 - 06/10/10 06:41 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi AFG, hi spalding.

If you guys are talking Styles only then this is an non issue.

Neither the developer of Live Arranger or Lionstracs sell a product that contains copyrighted styles.

Regards
James

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#288111 - 06/10/10 07:06 PM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
[b]Hi AFG, hi spalding.

If you guys are talking Styles only then this is an non issue.



hi James,

Diki wrote:

Seriously, James, have you ever considered what this means? Let us just assume that everyone BUT me is right on this issue. There is NO SUCH THING as copyright. Styles, sounds, software, music, none of it has any protection at all... I mean, if everyone's OK with copying every sound out of an Audya, why not every sound off a Madonna CD? (it's all just waveforms, ain't it? )

Is it just me, or doesn't anyone see any serious consequences to rampant piracy? Honestly, are you ALL amateurs, or is there someone on this thread that makes a living recording music? Producing samples? Creating music software..?


Then I have given my response on that.

then there were others who responded to me.

Before that I only talked about sampling as you can see.

I also tried to clarify if Yamaha won a lawsuit about styles,why are they silent against hardware music instrument sound sampling?

that is the point.

You've certainly read this post about sampling too,

D-i-k-i

why Yamaha does not do anything against this.....................?

Why Yamaha will not warning Lionstracs???
are they crazy to remain calm and do nothing if is illegal what Lionstracs sound Developers are doing??????????

do you think that Domenico risk the existence of his company to start with this without knowing anything about Law about this?????????

he's much smarter than you think.

sure he thought about everything.

So why are you glowing more then Light Bulb(Yamaha) itself???????????

declaration against copyright infringement is not expensive for Yamaha or else?????

Quote:

Neither the developer of Live Arranger or Lionstracs sell a product that contains copyrighted styles.

Regards
James


yes, i know read please my answer to Bachus on this page


thanks


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-10-2010).]

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#288112 - 06/10/10 09:44 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
I think I already addressed this, AFG... For starters, Dom isn't actually doing this. Some third party is doing the cloning, and made a proper balls-up of it, from what you all say. So, not exactly making mighty Yamaha quake in their boots, yet. James already explained what a herculean task it is to do this well.

But, at some point or another, it will become a reality. Whereupon, things may change. You all THOUGHT Ketron's styles were easy pickings, until Ketron got around to telling you that they WERE copyrighted. I imagine the same thing will happen for the internal ROM sounds. Just because you can't FIND a copyright notice (anybody even LOOK?) doesn't mean that copyright doesn't exist.

James, I am SURE that there never has been a situation before where a ROMpler was totally cloned. You are moving into new territory with this. Yes, I can still see that doing this for one's own use is possibly legal, but I still don't see how you get round the distribution problem. Anyway, would you all change your opinions one jot if Yamaha SAID their samples were copyrighted? Somehow, I doubt it. Not good news for your commercial library, James. Doesn't seem like anyone cares... not even you!

But, as far as I can see, if James thinks he can copyright HIS samples, do you honestly think that Yamaha or any other major manufacturer has forgotten about the issue? The thing you may not realize is, they may not be required to post it front and center, even though James has... Ketron's styles were, are and always will be. Didn't MATTER that you couldn't find the notice... You write a song, copyright it by posting a sealed copy to yourself, and if someone just HEARS you sing it, copies it and has a hit, you can sue for plagiarism. As long as you can PROVE the work was originally yours, it doesn't matter if they didn't SEE the copyright notice. It is assumed.

Proving a sample is an original work is easy. Waveform analysis will easily show a copy to be a clone.

There's always a lag between capability and legislation. But the West is waking up to just how much value is lost to piracy, and are making strides to curtail it. Whether the lawyers wake up and make public their copyright on these sounds (no offense, James, but if you can copyright yours, Yamaha can copyright theirs) quickly is up to them, and how they perceive the threat. At the moment, it's no big deal. But if the technology ever matures to the point where it actually WORKS well (without prodigious effort and skill), don't be surprised at how things change...

I never really DID come out and say "I told you so' about the Ketron style issue, that you were CONVINCED were not copyrighted. I hate to say it, but I have a feeling you are all going to discover that things are not quite the way you think they are about this issue, too.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#288113 - 06/11/10 04:30 AM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Diki,

why you change James answer with your own words?

and then you think that the answer of James was what you think?

is this your habit?

you are doing this with response from others too?

have you read those links about copyright?

James said I can not copyright my sound library sounds, but I can copyright my works.

for example:

someone buys James sounds for MS.he load the sound with linuxsampler on MS, then he goes through the audio output of MS to sample the sound produced by MS Hardware, but with James source sound.

James can not do anything here,

but if buy the sound and make a copy, you are copying James work, so you broken copyright here. The same happens when you're entering inside the Yamaha rom sound chip for example to copy raw PCM data too, here you are copying Yamaha works, so you broken copyright.

James is this what you say? let know if I'm wrong..........

is here the difference on copyright between songs sampling and sampling sampple based hardware music instrument sounds?


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-11-2010).]

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#288114 - 06/11/10 05:02 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
Diki,
why you change James answer with your own words?


EXACTLY...!!!!
I say one thing and Diki repeats it the way he wants to hear it.

Diki.... I'm done talking with you from this point onwards on all subjects. If there was an ignore button on this forum I'd be after hammering it to death by now.

YOU DO NOT LISTEN TO ANYONE so I'm not going to communicate with you ever again.

It's for the best.

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 06-11-2010).]

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#288115 - 06/11/10 06:13 AM Re: OS 4.3...
cgiles Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6662
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
YOU DO NOT LISTEN TO ANYONE so I'm not going to communicate with you ever again.

It's for the best.


No James, it's not for the best. You're both very intelligent, tech-savvy guys with strong opinions that are sometimes (MOST times ) on opposite sides of an issue, BUT.......as a result, many facts and side issues come into play and the rest of us are usually educated by it. Can Diki be a little 'pushy' at times? Yes. Dwell on a point too long? Yes. Be a 'smart-ass' sometimes? Yes, but with the emphasis on 'smart'. I just feel that we all learn more when the two of you ARE communicating....on whatever level.

I feel like I can say these things about Diki because he knows that I consider him a friend, in fact, a valued friend; one I like to bounce things off of, because I know that whatever response I get from him is going to be honest and not sugar-coated. If you read his posts carefully, you will see that he is usually in pursuit of a POINT, not a person. Well, there may a couple of exceptions.........maybe he just doesn't like guys whose name starts with "D" .

You really need to interact with him the way Ian does; with humor, locker room taunting, and friendly cat-fights. You may have noticed; they never go away mad. Diki is smart, talented, and a good guy. Mind you, I wouldn't want to be married to him (assuming I was a woman) but if I'm looking for a friend that's not going to bore me to death, he da man.



chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#288116 - 06/11/10 06:36 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
EXACTLY...!!!!
I say one thing and Diki repeats it the way he wants to hear it.

Diki.... I'm done talking with you from this point onwards on all subjects. If there was an ignore button on this forum I'd be after hammering it to death by now.

YOU DO NOT LISTEN TO ANYONE so I'm not going to communicate with you ever again.

It's for the best.

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 06-11-2010).]


Bloody hell James are you sure you won't just want to take a peek and jump in. It's not an ignore button , it's a self destruct button we need. Hold it down. Just go over to SZ MS and we'll all join hands and close ranks, type in code and talk of Giga samples and things.

Pour me another pochin James and play me some soft music and sing me "Danny Boy" on the MS.
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#288117 - 06/11/10 07:12 AM Re: OS 4.3...
LIONSTRACS Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
So...seem that this old copyright discussion is about resolved...
Candy available...
Login on gFTP and start to download for FREE the new Yammy YXG-GIGAT2 folder.
8.4Gb data, 1003 new Gigasounds.
Tastenpoint audio styles are based also with this new library, you need it for play this styles.
Enjoy

Now you can continue the discussion....started uploading the next big gigasounbank..

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#288118 - 06/11/10 11:08 AM Re: OS 4.3...
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
Hi AFG, hi spalding.

If you guys are talking Styles only then this is an non issue.

Neither the developer of Live Arranger or Lionstracs sell a product that contains copyrighted styles.

Regards
James


so are you saying that Liontracs is not selling yamaha styles or are you saying yamaha styles are not copyrighted ? Lets be clear. Because Dom has boasted many times that he uses yamaha styles and is still bragging that now and yamaha have successfully exerted their copyright over their styles already at least in China so what am i missing James ?

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#288119 - 06/11/10 11:30 AM Re: OS 4.3...
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom


AFG i have read the links you have copied. Now please explain exactly what point you are trying to make.

State clearly what you think the position is in relation to yamaha or korg or ketron styles in terms of whether or not they have protection under copyright laws and if you dont believe they do then please state clearly why you think that is.

1. firstly state whether or not you believe arranger styles created by any of the arranger manufacturers is intellectual property capable of being protected by copyright laws or not. If not state clearly why and how the laws outside china differ in relation to what can be regarded as intellectual property compared to say europe .
2. Secondly if styles can be treated as intellectual property (as already demonstrated in china) then who holds the copyright if not the manufacturers?


If you direct me to links then point out specifically what you think is the RELEVANT difference in relation to the copyright of styles.

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#288120 - 06/11/10 11:47 AM Re: OS 4.3...
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
Quote:
Originally posted by LIONSTRACS:
So...seem that this old copyright discussion is about resolved...
Candy available...
Login on gFTP and start to download for FREE the new Yammy YXG-GIGAT2 folder.
8.4Gb data, 1003 new Gigasounds.
Tastenpoint audio styles are based also with this new library, you need it for play this styles.
Enjoy

Now you can continue the discussion....started uploading the next big gigasounbank..


Dom you sound really confident . Lets have some fun. Your really confidemnt of your position arnt you ? I mean yamaha cant touch you can they ? How about you write to yamaha and tell them what you are doing and post up their response ???? You can then have bragging rights for years to come and Diki nor i can say a word about it becuase you told us so didnt you ? Dont wimp out now ! Whatr have you got to lose ????? I mean you are so confident of your position right? Ok that might be a bit too risky for you i know :-) How about you post up whatever legal advice you have sought to confirm that you are not breaking any copyright laws by using other manufacturers styles and packaging them when you sell your instruments....oh and by the way post up the name of the Law firm that gave you this advice....if they are brave enough to give it. Go on Dom. Either write to Yamaha or chicken out and post up tyhe legal advice you have recieved.

I double dare ya :-)

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#288121 - 06/11/10 11:55 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi spalding.

Quote:
so are you saying that Liontracs is not selling yamaha styles or are you saying yamaha styles are not copyrighted ?


I'm saying that Lionstracs are nether selling or giving away for free any Yamaha styles in any shape or form.

If you want to use a Lionstracs keyboard as an arranger you have to do two things.

1: Buy the computer program Live Arranger off the guy that developed it.
2: Get your own styles to run on it. Be it freely downloaded of the net, or you buy them.

Either way you will get none off Lionstracs as they don't sell them or give them away for free with their keyboards.

Quote:
Because Dom has boasted many times that he uses yamaha styles and is still bragging that now and yamaha have successfully exerted their copyright over their styles already at least in China so what am i missing James ?


If that's what he said then he very likely means that he is personally using Yamaha styles. It does not mean he is selling his keyboards with styles preloaded onto them.

As for the copyright and Yamaha winning a case in China. None of it effects Lionstracs as they do not sell or give away styles. So regardless of what anyone thinks Yamaha have accomplished here, None of it applies to Lionstracs at all.

Kind Regards
James

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#288122 - 06/11/10 12:15 PM Re: OS 4.3...
LIONSTRACS Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
Correct James.
when you download my OS ISO and install it, you can NOT find ONE yamaha styles, what you find is only some basic Qranger styles/songs.
IF you want to use yamaha styles, BUY the live-Arranger or import on qranger and edit again.
I dont sell this type of data/styles and I dont care at all to sell it, just dwonload from where you like. With your PC/Groove/MS...you are allowed to download the all what you want, at your risk.

One more again example about the copyright...
Some years ago, I had posted on my site the text:
"we design the future"
This is copyright from Roland corporation..
The next day I get the FAX from Roland Italy, to REMOVE ASAP this text because is copyright and IF I dont remove untill one day, they will proceed legally.

So..I have edited the text to: "We create the future"
Till today, no one have ring at my door..
Same for yamaha, they read here in SZ, don't worry..they know all but they can do nothing.
I'm here waiting a ring from 5 years...

For your know, I still have here saved the email from yamaha Japan, that they will buy one MS, but I dont gave.
I can forward the email to James to prove it, but I can not post here online or I really get legally issue..

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#288123 - 06/11/10 01:14 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
Hi spalding.

If that's what he said then he very likely means that he is personally using Yamaha styles. It does not mean he is selling his keyboards with styles preloaded onto them.

As for the copyright and Yamaha winning a case in China. None of it effects Lionstracs as they do not sell or give away styles. So regardless of what anyone thinks Yamaha have accomplished here, None of it applies to Lionstracs at all.

Kind Regards
James


Look can we cut through all the tosh and can someone tell me, what are the chances of someone come knocking on your door with a writ for infringment of copywrite on a MS. How may of you out there are running paid for software on your PCs and in fact own many are now looking at a PC that has a proper paid up operating system on it, as no one every copied software. Go on tell me different so what's all hype most just keep quiet about it.
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#288124 - 06/11/10 01:17 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
OH OH !!!!!

I must be in trouble..

I have converted "my" G70 styles to Yamaha format....so I can use them in "my" MediaStation....

BTW: I also have the freely available Tyros3 styles...I did not get them from my short lived Tyros3, but from the net....I have but 3 or 4 total Tyros3 styles that I have kept...most do not work for me...

Now I do have maybe a dozen Korg styles that do work for me....and none have come from a Korg keyboard that I have owned.....
They are readily found on the net....and I don't believe that any of the "big" 3 ..care a bit...
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#288125 - 06/11/10 02:18 PM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
AFG i have read the links you have copied. Now please explain exactly what point you are trying to make.

State clearly what you think the position is in relation to yamaha or korg or ketron styles in terms of whether or not they have protection under copyright laws and if you dont believe they do then please state clearly why you think that is.

1. firstly state whether or not you believe arranger styles created by any of the arranger manufacturers is intellectual property capable of being protected by copyright laws or not. If not state clearly why and how the laws outside china differ in relation to what can be regarded as intellectual property compared to say europe .
2. Secondly if styles can be treated as intellectual property (as already demonstrated in china) then who holds the copyright if not the manufacturers?


If you direct me to links then point out specifically what you think is the RELEVANT difference in relation to the copyright of styles.


Yamaha styles are copyrighted, but Yamaha style extensions(formats) are not copyrighted.

Roland-Korg-Ketron.....................Styles are copyrighted but not their extensions(formats).

so if you buy a software like Live-Arranger you can buy those styles or third party styles and use with Live-Arranger. or create your own style with those extensions(format).

why i posted the link here, do you think?

therfore i posted link to article about Yamaha styles here.

even is second time that I post about Yamaha article on synthzone.

search on for the topic about Live-Arranger,

on that topic Diki actively changed the answer from others with his own words, and then he said to others this is, what that person said.

he is doing that also here, and you are doing a little the same thing.

as James says this topic is now running about sampling,
so...............

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-11-2010).]

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#288126 - 06/11/10 02:32 PM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
one thing is certain. MS/Groove user have great respect for copyright. that is why they use an MS/Groove. MS/Groove based on open source software based on donations( for example Domenico made big Donation for Qranger development and also he donate for other softwares on MS/Groove too).
Some of those open source software even ask no donation.

MS/Groove is a studio with all legal hardware and software for music production..................




[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-11-2010).]

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#288127 - 06/12/10 12:43 AM Re: OS 4.3...
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
so why couldnt either you AFG or Dom or any MS owner simply and honestly state that dom does not package yamaha styles with the MS when it is shipped (i am certain he did in the past) just as James had ?????? So it is clear that the user takes responsibility for any potential copyright infringement . Whether or not a manufacturer would ever come down on an individual user is another matter entirely.

A simple honest answer like James just gave would have settled this years ago .

The simple truth is that Yamaha , korg, ketron styles are copyrighted whereever you are in the world. But there are ways of transfering the liability for any potential infringement to the individual user where they are much less likely to be prosecuted as with any copyright issue.

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#288128 - 06/12/10 01:38 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Sokratis 1974 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 789
Loc: Hellas, Creta, Iraklion
Hi my friends...
I absolutely respect the company Lionstracs and I have thought enough times him of buying…
However….All we the users, we have learned with any instrument that we buy to have in specifically manufactured styles for the instrument….
Therefore I believe , after exists so much big discussion for copyright, could the company make her somebodies Factory styles and simply all these be a possibility where the user of deciding what, and who way will it shapes the Instrument And of course they could exist also spesial styles for the GIGA expansions packs, or with any VST….
However this styles will made from professionals, and of course it will be spesial for this instrument...
This is my opinion…
Sorry for bad English.....
Bets Regards
Sokratis
_________________________
Style Producer, Sound Engineer, Sound Design.
Ketron Event, Ketron Audya 76, Audya 5, SD9, SD1,Yamaha Genos, Korg Pa3x, microarranger, Roland Fantom G6, V-Synth XT, XV-5080, SH201, D-50, Novation KS4, Dave Smith Evolver

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#288129 - 06/12/10 03:02 AM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
so why couldnt either you AFG or Dom or any MS owner simply and honestly state that dom does not package yamaha styles with the MS when it is shipped (i am certain he did in the past) just as James had ?????? So it is clear that the user takes responsibility for any potential copyright infringement . Whether or not a manufacturer would ever come down on an individual user is another matter entirely.

A simple honest answer like James just gave would have settled this years ago .

The simple truth is that Yamaha , korg, ketron styles are copyrighted whereever you are in the world. But there are ways of transfering the liability for any potential infringement to the individual user where they are much less likely to be prosecuted as with any copyright issue.


search first the Topic about Live-Arranger,
and then say MS/Groove users did not give honest answer about this before.
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/021126.html


http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/020831.html

you are doing the same as Diki..............



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-12-2010).]

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#288130 - 06/12/10 07:07 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi Sokratis 1974.

Quote:
However.All we the users, we have learned with any instrument that we buy to have in specifically manufactured styles for the instrument.


No, your expectations in this regard are simply down to the fact that YOU are trying to label an OPEN keyboard as an arranger.

It's your own expectations that create this situation. But that's ok... just keep reading the rest of this post and I will explain a few things that will interest you.

Quote:
Therefore I believe , after exists so much big discussion for copyright,


No, there are no copyright issues. Please see my previous post as that clears up this misunderstanding with perfect clarity that is not open to misinterpretation by anyone.

Quote:
could the company make her somebodies Factory styles and simply all these be a possibility where the user of deciding what, and who way will it shapes the Instrument And of course they could exist also spesial styles for the GIGA expansions packs, or with any VST.
However this styles will made from professionals, and of course it will be spesial for this instrument...



I have two things to say on that and it's important that things remain to function like this.

1: Lionstracs responsibility is to provide an OPEN platform that allows the end user to do anything they can imagine in a seamless and totally integrated way. This is the core idea behind an OPEN keyboard and the function it must provide. The work Lionstracs have done in this regard is simply mind blowing and the keyboard does offer that seamless OPEN integration as promised. Lionstracs must stay focused on continuing to do that while providing future advancements and expanding on the keyboards openness to accept anything you throw at it. So it is NOT their responsibility to ever develop styles for a computer program (Live Arranger) they don't even own.

2: Simply because Lionstracs are focused on providing the OPEN platform in the best way possible, this has created interest from a third party and so Tastenpoint are now currently developing styles written specifically for the keyboard.

So I hope you can see how this works here. Lionstracs focuses on providing the best open platform they can and the knock-on effect of this is that it creates an opportunity to third party developers to develop content for people who are not so advanced and need content developed for them.

In the near future I will also have completed a premium content sound library for the keyboard. I'm in the process of using my KORG OASYS and my OASYS ASSAULT library to develop new sounds for Lionstracs keyboards.

And I'm sure others are busy developing things too. Everything people are doing you will not find on any other keyboard. OPEN keyboards are the future because of the endless possibilities.

When you jump onto the bandwagon simply boils down to your own abilities or how you approach the concept.

Kind Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 06-12-2010).]

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#288131 - 06/12/10 08:12 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
A simple honest answer like James just gave would have settled this years ago


With Tastenpoint also developing styles specifically for Lionstracs keyboards, everything is moving in the right direction too which will open these keyboards up to arranger users who have no programming abilities whatsoever, and to allow them to take complete advantage of OPEN technology in a way they cannot imagine right now. As well as take advantage of all the work advanced users are doing.

There's a subject that has received little discussion here too which is very important. The level of integration and how Lionstracs make the PC totally seamless and transparent. It is quite amazing and anyone who thinks a Laptop or a DAW can compare on that level is sadly mistaken.

This is certainly the future of keyboards. When I think that an Audya can cost a lot more and only come with 64MB of sample RAM, it's hard not to start hating on closed keyboards. With Lionstracs there's always that "can do, will do" attitude which is a refreshing change from how keyboards have always worked.

Regards
James

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#288132 - 06/12/10 09:00 AM Re: OS 4.3...
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
search first the Topic about Live-Arranger,
and then say MS/Groove users did not give honest answer about this before.
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/021126.html


http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/020831.html

you are doing the same as Diki..............

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-12-2010).]


No AFG i am not doing the same as Diki ! I have not read every single thing that has ever been posted on the forum nor will i as most of it is not relevant to me ! You never said as far as i can tell that Liontracs dont sell the Mediastaion with styles on it anymore. Instead you posted links to web sites on copyright and the differences between countries which actually had NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE TRUTH OF WHAT DOM WAS NOW DOING. The answer to my questions in relation to Dom and the Liontracs product had nothing to do with how copyright laws worked from different countries so what the hell were you doing posting those links ? You were the one that posted the judgement that yamaha obtained on the copying of yamaha styles ! You asked what it meant and i explained to you what it meant and you then tried to hint that it meant that copyright for styles may not be protected outside of china just because it was the first time that styles had been considered under copyright law ! That was certainly the implication of your remark and if it wasnt please explain what the hell you actually meant when you said '

Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
read the article better:

The court was first one world wide who recognize copyright on rom styles and only in China and Yamaha is first companhy claim this.

such as the article claims




Clearly none of it had any relevance to the fact that Dom nolonger sold the MS with ANY STYLES !

Even in the links you have just included above you have not specifically mentioned what the hell it is you want me to understand from the links !

But what i did read from those links according to Dom himself was

'in this last 5 years that our sound designer have cloned with the Extreme sample converter, ton of Yamaha, Roland, Korg.... sounds and aslo styles.
NO one of this brand till today sent me ONE email, Fax or any call...it mean that anybody there are totally FREE to clone what they want, including Ketron sounds...
More you pressing on this argument and more I have fun to pay new developers to clone the all is possible.
Are years that I'm waiting for a nice call from this big brands....someone there is interested to buy my whole project and stopping all??
Just call...I'm always here waiting How can you '

Then he said as a side note

'Just anotgher note:
when someone download and install my new OS 4.0, do NOT include ANY GIGA/VST sounds and styles!
we include also one basic Debian sounds installer of our Giga soundbank GM and some Free VST/Asio Demo version host, thats all.
what then the custumers will install on the 250/1T Gb Hard disk is NOT our problem.'

So as of OS version 4 Dom stopped packaging cloned styles despite him boasting in the same thread that anyone can copy whatever they want ! Yeah right ! So what he was doing prior OS 4 of the MS WAS HIGHLY LIKELY TO BE ILLEGAL regardless as to whether yamaha took any notice or not !

Just so that everyone knows what kind of businessman you are Dom.

Can you publically state in thiS thread whether you sold MS units with yamaha copyrighted styles on the unit previously . James doesnt know your history and seems to think you only did it for private use.....

People need to know the kind of folk they are creating associations with.....

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#288133 - 06/12/10 10:00 AM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:

You asked what it meant and i explained to you what it meant and you then tried to hint that it meant that copyright for styles may not be protected outside of china just because it was the first time that styles had been considered under copyright law ! That was certainly the implication of your remark and if it wasnt please explain what the hell you actually meant when you said


1- i did not ask you anything, becouse i know what the Yamaha article means.

see the first topic link i give you on Page 3 on that topic, my post to Diki:

and diki please read this about flie extensions: http://trademarklawbriefs.com/?p=48

but yamaha Copyrighted his styles: http://www.global.yamaha.com/news/2008/20080508.html

so, yamaha styles are copyrighted but not the yamaha file extensions, so user can use if they pay orginal yamaha or ketron style with ketron or yamaha hardware or third party software. if they create own styles in yamaha or ketron format they are free to use it with yamaha or ketron hardware or thirdparty software that can work with this 2 brands style extensions.

maybe i read it again wrong!!!!!!!


--------------------------------------
2-this is my answer on page 3 here to Bachus:

something that has copyright somewhere in the world, has in a different place no copyright,
that is the point that you can see from that article.

the court was the only worldwide, and only in China and first court, which recognizes Copyright on Yamaha Rom Styles............

what you are saying to me about purchase Yamaha-Ketron-Roland.......... styles or third party styles , I have long before said on another topic to others.

Search the topic


-------
and this are your words spalding1968:

that it meant that copyright for styles may not be protected outside of china just because it was the first time that styles had been considered under copyright law ! That was certainly the implication of your remark and if it wasnt please explain what the hell you actually meant when you said 'that it meant that copyright for styles may not be protected outside of china just because it was the first time that styles had been considered under copyright law ! That was certainly the implication of your remark and if it wasnt please explain what the hell you actually meant when you said '

------------
so spalding1968 where did you read that i said yamaha styels are not copyrighted outside China????????????


--------------------------------------
3-see the first topic link i give you on Page 2 on that topic, my post to Diki:

but on roland Va-76 orginal zip you have about 500 midi songs if i remember! what about that? what i read as you write here is again it can play the format. you're as user responsible for how you use that product.buy original styles or midi for example, but also copy. for copy roland says we are not responsible.

the same is with livestyler or varranger you get a software without styles. you can buy always orginal styles. livestyler and varranger are just a player. and diki do not get me wrong, I have nothing against you or others here trust me. I respect copyright thats why i create my own styles.

-------------------
spalding1968 i said that Live-Arranger on MS does not include any style on that topic, Live Arranger is not Lionstracs software, it is a third party software and i said this also on that topic,

-------------------
So spalding1968 first read well. if you do not understand what a person means ask again for better explanation.better to do this before you starting prejudices someone.


Again:
I first posted one more time about Yamaha article here, because Diki in his post to James claimed that open source users claim that no copyright exists on Style.......... so he ignored my post to himself on the topic that i send the link here.
.
I again tried to put a link between Yamaha style lawsuit article and sample-based music instruments sound sampling, so

I tried to alert this:

if Yamaha start a Lawsuit for styles, in China, why are they doing not anything against sample-based instrument sound sampling? The answer is because Yamaha itself sample also real instruments and analog synth sounds.


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-12-2010).]

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#288134 - 06/12/10 11:03 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Talk about the 'ignore' button...

I feel that not ONE of you have adequately addressed the points that I have brought up, other than to basically cross your fingers and HOPE for the best...

And come on! That tired styles issue was put to rest a while ago. Ketron stated loud and clear that their styles WERE copyrighted. That anyone thinks the SOUNDS aren't also is just basically HOPING.

I have an email in to Yamaha, that hopefully will get answered definitively. It is disappointing that no-one here thought to try this, but then again, who WANTS to have their hopes dashed..?!

But here's the deeper question... Do none of you see the ultimate bankruptcy of the whole 'open' concept, that here we are, talking about cloning a closed arranger to be able to adequately play back its' styles...? If the promise of the open arranger had any legitimacy whatsoever, none of you would even be considering this boondoggle, already having MUCH better sounds and styles at your fingertips.

But you DON'T.

So, this is the best that the open keyboard can promise us... the ability to sound JUST like a closed arranger... (not that anyone takes that seriously, at the end of the day). Wow! What a giant leap forward!

If this isn't a warning to anyone looking to get one of these as an arranger, I don't know what is. Yep, an arranger SO good, its' owners are desperate to be able to clone a REAL arranger, just so it starts to sound good (or at least as good as a closed arranger). And, apparently, not all that concerned whether cloning is legal in the first place...

I mean, as long as you never ask anyone that KNOWS, you should be OK, shouldn't you?

James, I simply don't get it. What can you POSSIBLY have done, that garners you legal protection for your sampling work, that doesn't afford any arranger manufacturer the same protection?
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#288135 - 06/12/10 12:13 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Nedim Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 1144
Loc: Staten Island, NYC
Once upon the time Da Vinci painted Mona Lisa (Leo created the Rhodes) and then some guy
came along and made a copy of it (Korg sampled the Rhodes in their Keyboard) and out of
nowhere people started recopying the Mona Lisa and selling smaller versions (Korg did it in few
of their instruments) and then kids at home started printing copies of Mona Lisa ( kids started
sampling the Rhodes from Korg)...and so on...anyone on this Copyrights?

I did a Oxygene VIII Combination for M3, JMJ wrote the actual Instrumental. Now, mine is used
for people to play THAT song or Improvise on their own over that beat (which is not the same).
Who cares if JMJ wrote the Instrumental? Why do i have to pay him fees? Did i create actually
the song and sell it as is? NO! And yes i named it exactly as he did. Did he invent the name Oxygene?
And on the other hand, i will sample an instrument from a synth and i will challenge EVERYONE
in here (even DIKI) to analyze it and tell me what it is or if its THAT instrument...and not even
resample it, i will just copy it and rename it. It Sounds exactly the same? Why not??? Maybe i am
that good and i did exactly like that. Those stupid Balkan players that people go crazy over now
use some stupid Sounds on their Korg's. I recreated them up to 100% identical as theirs from ROM
on the Korg's keyboards, I've tried to compare 2 same sounds from 2 different sets, most of the
setting were IDENTICAL (by coincidence), some of them Sound IDENTICAL and all of the settings
are different, even the ROM PCM is different, i just used different methods to achieve the same
Sound. Now...do i owe them anything? That is a simple way of comparison and explanation.
In your own language:
I heard Jump from VanHalen, i created the EXACT sound on one of my synths and now what???
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#288136 - 06/12/10 12:45 PM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Diki some questions:

if you record a song with your midi sequencer software. it's a midi file and your sounds are from your G-70. Then you record a audio track from midi, and you make CD with that song.

can you sell this CD?

if you sell your G-70,Do You have still the right to use and sell that CD?

answer this please, because i like to say something, after i know your answer on this.



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-12-2010).]

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#288137 - 06/12/10 12:47 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Nedim Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 1144
Loc: Staten Island, NYC
I have a better one: i dont have a G70, i borrowed Diki's for few days and created a song...
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2 850 PRO 256GB SSDs. 1 850 EVO 1TB SSD. Acustica: Nebula Server 3 Ultimate, Murano, Magenta 3, Navy, Titanium.

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#288138 - 06/12/10 01:42 PM Re: OS 4.3...
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
What is REALLY annoying me about this thread, is those who are trying to paint themselves as "whiter than white" on this issue.

I GUARANTEE they have copyrighted styles on THEIR keyboards, and/or copyrighted samples on THEIR PC's, not too mention a myriad of other lent or "borrowed" software.

Some have even openly admitted it.

And no, buying ONE Yamaha model of arranger does NOT allow you to freely swap styles from any other Yamaha arranger out there. You buy the licence to use styles for that SINGLE keyboard. Same principle applies to Korg et al.

So please stop this puritanical assault when all of you are just as guilty as all the rest of us on this issue!!!!

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#288139 - 06/12/10 01:57 PM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
now Diki does not answer, those simple questions.....

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#288140 - 06/12/10 06:21 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
Hi Sokratis 1974.


When you jump onto the bandwagon simply boils down to your own abilities or how you approach the concept.

Kind Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 06-12-2010).]


Perhaps the most poignant statement you have made yet James about the whole thing
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#288141 - 06/12/10 06:34 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Sokratis 1974 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 789
Loc: Hellas, Creta, Iraklion
Dear Irishacts ......
I absolutely comprehend all your arguments ......
I dont have more questions....

Thank you...

[This message has been edited by Sokratis 1974 (edited 06-12-2010).]
_________________________
Style Producer, Sound Engineer, Sound Design.
Ketron Event, Ketron Audya 76, Audya 5, SD9, SD1,Yamaha Genos, Korg Pa3x, microarranger, Roland Fantom G6, V-Synth XT, XV-5080, SH201, D-50, Novation KS4, Dave Smith Evolver

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#288142 - 06/12/10 06:50 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
now Diki does not answer, those simple questions.....


Give him time and he will, this ain't going away just yet.
_________________________
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#288143 - 06/12/10 06:58 PM Re: OS 4.3...
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Hughes:
Give him time and he will, this ain't going away just yet.


Damn it!!

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#288144 - 06/13/10 02:42 AM Re: OS 4.3...
LIONSTRACS Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
Just for your know..
OS 4.3rev1977 is ready to download!
Enjoy!

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#288145 - 06/13/10 03:01 AM Re: OS 4.3...
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
listen AFG you are talking in circles. Liontracs when they sold the MS keyboard up until version 04 i estimate were not selling styles that had been created in yamaha format by users and then packaged with the keyboard. They were selling actual yamaha styles that had been programmed by yamaha for their own arranger keyboards and then converted for use on the MS. Your attempt to fool anyone that it was just yamaha format styles being used on the MS is rediculous ! They were in yamaha format because they were yamaha styles !! Not user styles or original styles programmed by Dom or his employees for the MS!

this is what you said in relation to the court judgement about copyright concerning yamaha styles and remember the judgement was about the style data.

You said :

'so if Yamaha has claimed that Yamaha is first company which proposed copyright to rom styles,

what they mean?
that it is first time, and Yamaha is first company?
and why in 2008?
and why The Courts judgment was the first in the world ?
and why only in China?

and read this part of Article:

The Courts judgment was the first in the world to recognize that Style Data is intellectual property that is subject to protection under copyright laws and that unauthorized copying of such Style Data is an infringement of copyrights. Yamaha believes this judgment is an epoch-making legal development and holds the content of the settlement arbitrated by the Court in high regard since it recognizes virtually all of Yamahas assertions. Looking ahead, Yamaha will continue to work to respect and protect intellectual property and to take a resolute stand against the infringement of intellectual property rights.

----What does this mean?- '

If thats not a question about the court judgement and its meaning then what is it ???????????????

Lets cut to the chase AND ANSWER ME THIS, HAS DOM EVER IN THE PAST SOLD OR GIVEN AWAY YAMAHA ARRANGER STYLES (style data the format is irrelevant) FROM EXISTING YAMAHA ARRANGER PRODUCTS PACKAGED AS A BUNdLE ON THE MS AS PART OF THE SALE OF THE MS ? Just a simple yes or no will do. I cant be doing with 'searches' to try and understand circular points you are making. Yamaha style format is not copy righted but their data is. This is clear and agreed already


[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-13-2010).]

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#288146 - 06/13/10 03:51 AM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
listen AFG you are talking in circles. Liontracs when they sold the MS keyboard up until version 04 i estimate were not selling styles that had been created in yamaha format by users and then packaged with the keyboard. They were selling actual yamaha styles that had been programmed by yamaha for their own arranger keyboards and then converted for use on the MS. Your attempt to fool anyone that it was just yamaha format styles being used on the MS is rediculous ! They were in yamaha format because they were yamaha styles !! Not user styles or original styles programmed by Dom or his employees for the MS!

Lets cut to the chase AND ANSWER ME THIS, HAS DOM EVER IN THE PAST SOLD OR GIVEN AWAY YAMAHA ARRANGER STYLES FROM EXISTING YAMAHA ARRANGER PRODUCTS PACKAGED AS A BUNLE ON THE MS AS PART OF THE SALE OF THE MS ? Just a yes or no will do. I cant be doing with 'searches' to try and understand the points you making.


no , no ,no

i am not reponsible for what Lionstracs did in the past. now i am also not reponsible for Lionstracs(i do not know what they did in the past,but we had to Qranger syles folders that are also not any more included on O.S now, i do not know the source of the Qranger syles were used, but what is importend that there is no styles included on O.S, the topic link i give and where i said there is no styles included prove my honest (simple becouse i do not use any style created by others, i respect copyright). but i most tell you the true, and the true is:

-there is no style included O.S (except some Qranger example Midi style i think 5, but i remove them also)
-I told the truth about styles on that topic and also here( styles are copyrighted but styles extensions(format) not).
-Lionstracs include styles Players ON O.S and no styles(two arrangers Qranger-Live Arranger, but Live-Arranger is not included on O.S you most Buy From http://www.livearranger.com/)
-Why do you think MS/Groove users must provide you all information?
-MS/Groove users are not reponsible for Lionstracs Italy.

so


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-13-2010).]

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#288147 - 06/13/10 04:25 AM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
You said :

'so if Yamaha has claimed that Yamaha is first company which proposed copyright to rom styles,

what they mean?
that it is first time, and Yamaha is first company?
and why in 2008?
and why The Courts judgment was the first in the world ?
and why only in China?


now my answer:

'so if Yamaha has claimed that Yamaha is first company which proposed copyright to rom styles,

what they mean?

--
answer:
all styles from Yamaha and other Companies are copyrighted, but Yamaha say nothing about others.
----------------------

that it is first time, and Yamaha is first company?

--
answer:

no, all companies copyright there styles, but Yamaha article claim fist time.
----------------------

and why in 2008?

--
Answer:
they had to be faster, So from the beginning.
----------------------

and why The Courts judgment was the first in the world ?
--
answer but also question:

they have not been successful in other places?
------------------------
and why only in China?

--
answer:

they pretend that this happened only in China
, and not somewhere else, Internet is full of Yamaha styles.
------------------------

again, those questions had to let you know about. if Yamaha would succeed against sample based hardware instrument sound sampling they had started a Laqsuit already.

they satrted lawsuit, beouse some small companies used there PSR styles in China.........but they do nothing about yamaha top models tyros2-tyros3 styles on some yamaha users sites or other sites worlwide..........

if they started a lawsuit only for cheap PSR styles in China, why they do nothing against sampling sample based music instrument sound in west?

West is still more concerned about copyright.
if yamaha saw they were successful about this, they had already done all that.

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-13-2010).]

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#288148 - 06/13/10 04:59 AM Re: OS 4.3...
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
You dont know if Dom sold the MS with styles from yamaha in the past ?????? where have you been for the last 4-5 years ? Ok you say you dont know and i will accept that.

But your reasoning is seriously flawed.

For example , your reasoning about yamaha and lawsuits in relation to instrument sound samples is flawed. Up until yamaha pursued the 4 companies in china concerning style stealing, to my knowledge ,no one else had successfully sued a company for stealing arranger styles , does that mean for the period before the cited court judgement that stealing styles was legal ???? Why didnt korg do it or roland ? Do we have to wait for them to sue somebody too before we can conclude that stealing their style data is illegal ?

Listen AFG i dont know if i have understood the points you have raised correctly and if i have misunderstood you then i apologise.I wish i could speak in your language as well as you speak english and maybe we could converse further but for now its not really that importnat anymore.

As far as cloning an entire keyboards sounds is concerned i suspect it will be resolved by the law eventually but for now i think it would be a high risk business decision to do so.

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-13-2010).]

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#288149 - 06/13/10 05:47 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
Originally posted by LIONSTRACS:
Just for your know..
OS 4.3rev1977 is ready to download!
Enjoy!


Hi Domenico.
Did you take the file down again ?

I cannot see it on the gFTP. I can only see OS4.2V3

Regards
James

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#288150 - 06/13/10 12:02 PM Re: OS 4.3...
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
Hi Domenico.
Did you take the file down again ?

I cannot see it on the gFTP. I can only see OS4.2V3

Regards
James


On the main website James

Dennis

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#288151 - 06/14/10 05:44 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Thanks Dennis.
Should have known that. Down know why I automatically expected to find them in gFTP.

D'oh..!!!

Anyway... all downloaded now and I'm looking forward to taking this baby for a test drive.

Thanks Dennis, and Thank you Lionstracs.

Regards
James

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#288152 - 06/15/10 06:06 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
Diki some questions:

if you record a song with your midi sequencer software. it's a midi file and your sounds are from your G-70. Then you record a audio track from midi, and you make CD with that song.

can you sell this CD?

if you sell your G-70,Do You have still the right to use and sell that CD?

answer this please, because i like to say something, after i know your answer on this.


Sorry.... been busy a few days.

AFG, you cannot POSSIBLY be serious with your question... can you?

Actually, given the appalling state of knowledge about different copyright issues that this thread (and earlier spats, that you lost definitively) has shown, then yes, possibly you ARE serious.

For starters, AFG, you are opening a can of worms on a totally different area of copyright. Nothing to do with sampling at all. But let me indulge you...

For starters, is the song original, or is it a cover of a commercial song? There's a difference. If it is original, you are the sole holder of copyright on the work. And no-one can copy your song, whether by cloning the SMF, cloning the CD, or distributing the mp3 made from the CD... You can make a CD of the work, and if the original keyboard you made it on is sold, you are still the copyright holder (as you produced the work while you owned it), and anyway, you don't need to own the keyboard... the song is nothing to do with the tool used to make it.

Remember, making a song from a keyboard is NOT, in any sense of the word, sampling it... (unless your song consists of long notes at multiple velocity levels of every sound it contains! ).

Now, let's assume that the song you want to record is copyrighted. At least here in the US, you have to obtain permission from the Harry Fox Agency to cover the work (they handle most copyright issues) and pay a small fee. Once payed (and it is cued to the number of copies printed), you may then record the tune and make a CD of it in any format you want. All of which, at this point, is copyrighted to you.

I simply don't understand how you can confuse the recording of songs to cloning an arranger's entire soundset... Two utterly different things. And, while James has the 'Ignore' button mashed, don't do the same yourself. There are OBVIOUS differences between sampling an original creation on a synth and the total cloning of the sounds. Even if you discount arrangers like the Audya, where the basic ROM data IS 'copyable', and only limit yourself to keyboards where the ROM data is on a protected chip, the task of 'cloning' a keyboard's sounds involves trying to get as close to the basic sound as is possible. This isn't what Spectrasonics attempted with Atmosphere, etc..

When you sample acoustic instruments in a keyboard's ROM, you aren't merely trying to recreate basic synth patches, or trying to get the raw shape of a Minimoog triangle wave down, so your own voice programming can be added to it. You are attempting, as closely as is possible, to recreate the raw data of the instrument and its' programming AS CLOSELY AS POSSIBLE. And here, I feel, is where any decent lawyer will be able to get a judgment in the favor of the manufacturer. It's all about INTENT...

And trying to clone the entire soundset of a current, competing manufacturer's product will doubtless be easily provable to cause economic damage to the plaintiff. Once there is a provable damage (and if this idea ever becomes a reality - which it isn't at this point - that will be easy to show), those lawyers will be all over this...

It's all too easy to look at the history of sampling, and see that, here and there, certain sounds were sampled off of one keyboard and used on another. But it's a whole different thing to scale that up to the wholesale cloning of an entire product. There's SURELY got to be at least one of you out there that can see the difference, here..?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#288153 - 06/15/10 06:56 PM Re: OS 4.3...
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
The wholesale cloning of an entire product has been going on for years.
When you sample a piano, it is the same effect as cloning a keyboard. They both will cause economic damage to the original product.
_________________________
TTG

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#288154 - 06/15/10 07:07 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
An absurd comparison. And probably the root of much of the confusion on this site.

There is a complete difference between painstakingly recording a concert piano to make a sample set (which has LONG been allowed as legal) and the wholesale THEFT of those recordings to make your OWN sample set. Simply put, it's OK to sample a piano. It is NOT OK to copy someone ELSE'S samples. Not without permission.

It boils down to the WORK (as James likes to call it). Making the samples directly from the piano is a long, hard, complicated and expensive process. Copying the data is NOT. It's as easy as breaking into someone's house and stealing their stuff! Make your OWN sample set of a piano, all is good. Steal MINE, and I'll sick the dogs on ya!

Do the work yourself, or PAY for it. Do neither, and you are stealing. Period.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#288155 - 06/15/10 09:43 PM Re: OS 4.3...
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
An absurd comparison. And probably the root of much of the confusion on this site.

There is a complete difference between painstakingly recording a concert piano to make a sample set (which has LONG been allowed as legal) and the wholesale THEFT of those recordings to make your OWN sample set. Simply put, it's OK to sample a piano. It is NOT OK to copy someone ELSE'S samples. Not without permission.

It boils down to the WORK (as James likes to call it). Making the samples directly from the piano is a long, hard, complicated and expensive process. Copying the data is NOT. It's as easy as breaking into someone's house and stealing their stuff! Make your OWN sample set of a piano, all is good. Steal MINE, and I'll sick the dogs on ya!

Do the work yourself, or PAY for it. Do neither, and you are stealing. Period.


And there is the hypocrisy and injustice in the reasoning.
It is OK to cause economic damage to one product but not OK to cause damage to another.
Do you really expect any fair-minded person to adopt that view?

You can not say it is OK for the samplers of an acoustic instrument to rob the makers of an acoustic instrument of their hard work, but then turn around and say that those same samplers should be protected from the clones who will rob the samplers of their hard work.
The point is completely inconsistent and does not make any sense.
The persons who sample should do the work them selves and make their own original sounding instrument and stop robbing other people of their hard work.


[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 06-15-2010).]
_________________________
TTG

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#288156 - 06/15/10 09:55 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
And there is the hypocrisy and injustice in the reasoning.
It is OK to cause economic damage to one product but not OK to cause damage to another.
Do you really expect any fair-minded person to adopt that view?

You can not say it is OK for the samplers of an acoustic instrument to rob the makers of an acoustic instrument of their hard work, but then turn around and say that those same samplers should be protected from the clones who will rob the samplers of their hard work.
The point is completely inconsistent and does not make any sense.
The persons who sample should do the work them selves and make their own original sounding instrument and stop robbing other people of their hard work.


[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 06-15-2010).]


James,

You stay out of this one, head down on MS, no rest for the wicked. This battle cannot be won, or the War, there are somethings in life that just cannot be fixed and this is one, the MS can.

Cheers James another Potcheen for me! Is that how you spell it???

[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 06-15-2010).]
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#288157 - 06/16/10 03:34 AM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Diki now My answers:

1 - a forum is not a battlefield, or a game where one wins and another loses.
stop using that language. because you reduce your self even more(especially imotaions you're using).

2-You do not know even the difference between the new recording and sampling,
becouse:

any song that you have made on your sample-based hardware music Intrument(Roland G-70) is nothing more than sampling(even when you used a Daw or Midi Sequencers but you use sounds from your Roland G-70), when you play on your keybed you triger the samples from rom( all recording from a sample-based hardware music instrument is sampling, becouse of the samples on rom chip).

3-a software like Extreme Sampler Editor works like a MIDI Sequencer(send first trigger midi message to midi Midi Device and record from audio output the sound), only difference, if you record 61 keys for example, you get a Chromatic and sliced Sequence.

4-You do not even know the difference between sampling and cloning,

becouse:

cloning sound=100% identical lossless copy of the sound.
sampling sound=try to get a sound as identical possible,to the source sound but it will be never 100% identical or lossless copy of the sound source.

again:

-the first recording from a realmusic instrument or analog synth to make a digital sample based harware music instrument is sampling.

-all recordings from a digital sample based hardware music instrument sound is sampling too(becouse you trigger the rom chip samples with your keybed).

Go now while talking to your self about winning and losing, becouse when you sell your CD with your Sequenced new song you are selling samples from a sample based hardware music instrument sound too, becouse your new Sequenced song is then sample based Sequence becouse of the rom chip samples(you have not hired guitarists or other musicians who plays real instruments or analog synths for you)..

morover i said in my post record a song, which means a new song.

I did not say record a existing song.


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-16-2010).]

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#288158 - 06/16/10 02:45 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
I am sorry, AFG, but you opened this door. You are an idiot, know NOTHING whatsoever about copyright, and are naive in the extreme if you think that, just because you HOPE there's no copyright to anything (other than, apparently, James's samples, which apparently, all I have to do to steal is take off the programming and use the digital outs of my keyboard to copy it, after all, it still won't be QUITE bit accurate), that makes it so.

I recall you being utterly CONVINCED that copying Ketron's styles was legal, too. Doesn't being wrong make even a tiny bit of difference to your future stances on copyright? You learned NOTHING during the last debate, and are demonstrating that proudly again...

I suggest you take your head out of that dark place, and go and ask Yamaha if cloning their keyboards is legal. Or keep pretending that you know anything at all...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#288159 - 06/16/10 03:51 PM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I am sorry, AFG, but you opened this door. You are an idiot, know NOTHING whatsoever about copyright, and are naive in the extreme if you think that, just because you HOPE there's no copyright to anything (other than, apparently, James's samples, which apparently, all I have to do to steal is take off the programming and use the digital outs of my keyboard to copy it, after all, it still won't be QUITE bit accurate), that makes it so.

I recall you being utterly CONVINCED that copying Ketron's styles was legal, too. Doesn't being [b]wrong
make even a tiny bit of difference to your future stances on copyright? You learned NOTHING during the last debate, and are demonstrating that proudly again...

I suggest you take your head out of that dark place, and go and ask Yamaha if cloning their keyboards is legal. Or keep pretending that you know anything at all... [/B]


1-that the word idiot you used on a public forum, proves what kind of person you are.

2-where did you read that I said there is totally no copyright on Ketron Styles?
and where did you read that i said nothing is copyrighted or copyright do not exists?

proves what you claim or............

3-I was the person who has post evidence about copyright on yamaha styles and evidence that you can not copyright extensions(formats) here on this forum twise, but where is your evidence?

4-you have certainly not learned how to talk to other people.

5-the worst behavior and personality disorder is when someone without reason accused others of something,
and this is exactly what you are always doing.

6-do you still remember the saying from my culture? certainly not, because you never learn, and you can not even change your behavior.

7-I know what made you so angry, certainly this:
all recordings from a digital sample based hardware music instrument sound is sampling too(becouse you trigger the rom chip samples with
your keybed).

Go now while talking to your self about winning and losing, becouse when you sell your CD with your Sequenced new song you are selling samples from a sample based hardware music instrument sound too, becouse your new Sequenced song is then sample based Sequence becouse of the rom chip samples(you have not hired guitarists or other musicians who plays real instruments or analog synths for you).

8-my last post was not about copyright. but the evidence that you and Lionstracs Sound developer are using the same way (you are both doing sampling with small differences).

-----------------
do not pretend you did not know this,or surely you did not knew this.




[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-16-2010).]

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#288160 - 06/16/10 05:11 PM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
and Diki on Year 2008 when Yamaha won copyright lawsuit in China about PSR styles, you started here on 04-08-2008 08:30 PM a topic here on synthzone forum with this title:

Style conversion site needed

and this topic was about top line arranger rom style conversion.
topic link:
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/017369.html


So in future do not accuse others with something you're doing your self and you are guilty and not others.




[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-16-2010).]

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#288161 - 06/16/10 10:10 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
I think its time to take this discussion to court, only an unbiased judge can .....

But then where do we find a judge that has the knowledge about the topic, where do we find a judge that can even comprehend half of this discussion....

So this is and will allways be an openended discussion.

The only question we need to be answered is : What is the difference between sampling a rhodes and sampling a rhodes sample.
_________________________
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#288162 - 06/17/10 12:57 AM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Bachus:

did you read topic started by Diki on year 2008..................see the link in my last post..................

it is not about sampling but it is good to know......................



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-17-2010).]

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#288163 - 06/17/10 03:30 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6482
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Bachus:
The only question we need to be answered is : What is the difference between sampling a rhodes and sampling a rhodes sample.



Now that is very easy to answer. It is the difference between taking a photo of a particular scene versus taking a scan ( or photo ) of that same photo.

If you take a photo of that same scene it is still your own work even if it looks very similar, but if you take a scan of someone elses photo then that is still their property and you don't have the legal rights to it.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 06-17-2010).]

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#288164 - 06/17/10 04:01 PM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by Nigel:
Now that is very easy to answer. It is the difference between taking a photo of a particular scene versus taking a scan ( or photo ) of that same photo.

If you take a photo of that same scene it is still your own work even if it looks very similar, but if you take a scan of someone elses photo then that is still their property and you don't have the legal rights to it.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 06-17-2010).]


Nigel, good example,

but can someone take from someone's house without permission a picture and then copyright that image as his property???????

in my example:

the real music instrument and analog synth= someone's house

photographer= sample company

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-17-2010).]

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#288165 - 06/17/10 11:09 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6482
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
Nigel, good example,

but can someone take from someone's house without permission a picture and then copyright that image as his property???????

in my example:

the real music instrument and analog synth= someone's house

photographer= sample company



No you have it wrong. In this analogy the synth is NOT a photo ... it is the actual scene which is being photographed. Every sample that is taken from it will be different and can not legally be definitavely identified as coming from that keyboard.

If the copyrighted brand name was used with the samples then some sort of compensation would most probably be required. However if the brand name is not used then there is no way to identify the sample is from a particular instrument. While it probably a grey area legally there is no possible way to identify where that sample was taken from. That is why all the major manufacturers use patch names that only hint at where the samples may be taken from.

However if samples are copied from sample ROMS then they certainly CAN be indentified and will be carbon copies of the original. So there is a legal case that can be made. That is what it comes down to, if a legal case can be established then it will be enforced if necessary.



[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 06-17-2010).]

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#288166 - 06/18/10 03:00 AM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by Nigel:
No you have it wrong. In this analogy the synth is NOT a photo ... it is the actual scene which is being photographed. Every sample that is taken from it will be different and can not legally be definitavely identified as coming from that keyboard.

If the copyrighted brand name was used with the samples then some sort of compensation would most probably be required. However if the brand name is not used then there is no way to identify the sample is from a particular instrument. While it probably a grey area legally there is no possible way to identify where that sample was taken from. That is why all the major manufacturers use patch names that only hint at where the samples may be taken from.

However if samples are copied from sample ROMS then they certainly CAN be indentified and will be carbon copies of the original. So there is a legal case that can be made. That is what it comes down to, if a legal case can be established then it will be enforced if necessary.

[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 06-17-2010).]


I know what you mean. but that Actual scene sound is in this case some one's property.

any real acoustic instruments and analog synths has certain type of sound and character and i think you know this.

For example, if you have 10 acoustic guitar from 10 different companies, each guitar sound different.

one of the reasons why fewer people are learning to play acoustic instruments and analog synth is sample-based electric music instruments.

it's injustices against acoustic instrument builders and analog synth makers to say you work hard to build an instrument with specific sounds and sound character, but sample-based music harddware Intrument companies see your instrument specific sounds and sound character like a real scene so they can digitally copy your work(sampling) and sell as a basis on their hardware.


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-18-2010).]

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#288167 - 06/18/10 04:12 AM Re: OS 4.3...
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
I know what you mean. but that Actual scene sound is in this case some one's property.

any real acoustic instruments and analog synths has certain type of sound and character and i think you know this.

For example, if you have 10 acoustic guitar from 10 different companies, each guitar sound different.

one of the reasons why fewer people are learning to play acoustic instruments and analog synth is sample-based electric music instruments.

it's injustices against acoustic instrument builders and analog synth makers to say you work hard to build an instrument with specific sounds and sound character, but sample-based music harddware Intrument companies see your instrument specific sounds and sound character like a real scene so they can digitally copy your work(sampling) and sell as a basis on their hardware.


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-18-2010).]


Well said. I think that is the point a lot of persons are missing.
They do not see the original acoustic instrument as an instrument the same way they see an electronic instrument.


Here is another analogy: If someone creates a blueprints for a house, then some one takes a picture of that blueprint, then someone interns scans an image of the picture of the blueprint, with this discussion, it seems as if most persons would think that only the person who took the picture should have any protection.
But what about the person who created and worked on the original blue print.

The person who created the blueprint is equivalent to the acoustic instrument maker. The person who took the picture is equivalent to the person who samples. And the person who scans the picture is equivalent to the person who clones.
_________________________
TTG

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#288168 - 06/18/10 10:26 AM Re: OS 4.3...
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
you are so confused in your reasoning Genesys and AFG its just not even funny.

Copyright is about protecting an authors right to intellectual property. Bear that in mind in your examples.

The guy that made the guitar (lets call him Les Paul) has no copyright on the guitar unless he made and designed the original guitar (like a few hundred years earlier) Les Paul can only claim copyright if the guitar he made is so distinctive and unique that it can be claimed to have features that are original, unique and its author is easily identifyable as Les Paul. So for example it may have a distinctive shape or design that is unique to Les Paul's guitar. Thats the intellectual property he could protect. Not the sound the guitar makes. If that guitar design is unique and has features that distinguishes it from other guitars , the image of the guitar cpild be copyrighted and if someone took an unauthorised picture of it they could be breaching copyright but read the judgement below.

example http://www.mi-pro.co.uk/news/1092/Gibson-lawsuit-ends-with-PRS-victory

the guy who samples the guitar (lets call him James )has the copyright of the sample he made of the Guitar Les Paul made. The intellectual property is the recording and all the chopping and looping and stretching that James did to make his property sound the way it does. Note he does not have the copyright of the sounds the guitar makes just the sound he sampled and worked with ie 'the work he wishes to have protected' That electronic sample or data is his work and he has copyright over it. This is the intellectual property he wishes to protect. Not the sound of the guitar but the electronic data he has made. Copyright will not prevent anyone else who wishes to sample a guitar because the sound is not copyrighted , just the electronic sound data of the individual sample which has an identifiable owner !

The guy that clones the electronic sample (lets call him Dom )owns nothing. He illegally copies the electronic data of James and then sells or distributes pretty much virtually unaltered to whomever he chooses illegally. His work consists of a copy of James intellectual property . Remember it is not the sound that is copyrighted. It is the electronic data.

I hope that clears it up a little bit.

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-18-2010).]

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#288169 - 06/18/10 10:44 AM Re: OS 4.3...
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
By that logic, then it would be OK to sample the sound of the sample?
I didnt think so.
You are saying that it is OK to deprive one creator of an instrument of money and not another?
The problem some people are not getting is that there is intellectual property involved with the original acoustic or electronic instrument.
_________________________
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#288170 - 06/18/10 10:58 AM Re: OS 4.3...
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
of course you can sample the sound generated from a sample. Its called resampling and it is done completely legally all over the world ! What you cant do is take the electronic data and copy that electronic data.

Thats why people can sample a rhodes piano ,They can sample a steinway piano if they have access to one but they cant take my sample of a steinway or my sample of a rhodes without my permission because it is the sample (that specific recording or elctronic data ) that is my intellectual property.

What you are not getting is who the author is and what is the intellectual property that author owns and wishes to protect unfder copyright. I can protect the name Rhodes and Steinway and Lespaul and Gibson but through trade marks , but i cant protect the sound of a Lespaul Gibson etc.

Thats why copyright law uses language as described in the post i recieved from Yamaha relating to 'Internal content' and ' sound waveform data and performance data ' with the intention that said internal content is to be used for musical expression.

is that clearer ?

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-18-2010).]

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#288171 - 06/18/10 11:24 AM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
you are so confused in your reasoning Genesys and AFG its just not even funny.

Copyright is about protecting an authors right to intellectual property. Bear that in mind in your examples.

The guy that made the guitar (lets call him Les Paul) has no copyright on the guitar unless he made and designed the original guitar (like a few hundred years earlier) Les Paul can only claim copyright if the guitar he made is so distinctive and unique that it can be claimed to have features that are original, unique and its author is easily identifyable as Les Paul. So for example it may have a distinctive shape or design that is unique to Les Paul's guitar. Thats the intellectual property he could protect. Not the sound the guitar makes. If that guitar design is unique and has features that distinguishes it from other guitars , the image of the guitar cpild be copyrighted and if someone took an unauthorised picture of it they could be breaching copyright but read the judgement below.

example http://www.mi-pro.co.uk/news/1092/Gibson-lawsuit-ends-with-PRS-victory

the guy who samples the guitar (lets call him James )has the copyright of the sample he made of the Guitar Les Paul made. The intellectual property is the recording and all the chopping and looping and stretching that James did to make his property sound the way it does. Note he does not have the copyright of the sounds the guitar makes just the sound he sampled and worked with ie 'the work he wishes to have protected' That electronic sample or data is his work and he has copyright over it. This is the intellectual property he wishes to protect. Not the sound of the guitar but the electronic data he has made. Copyright will not prevent anyone else who wishes to sample a guitar because the sound is not copyrighted , just the electronic sound data of the individual sample which has an identifiable owner !

The guy that clones the electronic sample (lets call him Dom )owns nothing. He illegally copies the electronic data of James and then sells or distributes pretty much virtually unaltered to whomever he chooses illegally. His work consists of a copy of James intellectual property . Remember it is not the sound that is copyrighted. It is the electronic data.

I hope that clears it up a little bit.

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-18-2010).]


now if they copyright sample waves on ROM chip against cloning, as their work there is no problem,it is also understandable and good to copyright their work.

but if they copyright the sound produced by an digital sample-based hardware music instrument that is wrong.

agian this question:

why on sound produced by a acoustic real instrument and analog synth sound no copyright but on digital copy (sampled version)produced by a Digital sample based hardware instrument copyright? (again the sound produced by sampler engine and processed to outputs, so not the raw wave samples on rom chip, but the sound).

so try not to compare the raw samples on rom chip with sounds that is produced, becouse the sound that is produced from output is a Digital copy from acoustic real instrument and analog synth sound.


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-18-2010).]

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#288172 - 06/18/10 12:29 PM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
spalding1968 I'm happy in your last post read something that makes everything more clear.

You've mentioned something good:

resampling.

answer this please:

can people resample a sample-based hardware music instrument sound from the instrument audio output?

if you say yes, it is exactly what what Lionstracs sound developer is doing with Extreme Sampler Editor.

Lionstracs does not cloning the wave data from the rom chip but they resample the sounds produced from a electric instruments output.

first you select some keys on extreme sampler Gui interface and you select the layers you like to have for the sound. extreme sampler editor send first midi message to instrument sound device and then record the produced sounds from instrument sound device audio output, the wave data you get is not the same as the Wave data on rom chip and also not edited. the wave data is not the same becouse you do not know which key is the main key used for wave data on romchip, You do not know how many layers the wave data on rom chip has,You do not know how many waves used for the sound on rom chip,you do not know the looppoints, you do not know the sample rate used for wave data on romchip, you do not know if the wave data on rom chip is stereo or mono..............many other things and Diki says this is not allowed to do.

read my last post please too, and answer.



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-18-2010).]

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#288173 - 06/18/10 01:58 PM Re: OS 4.3...
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
no that is not exactly what liontracs is doing ! Liontracs is not doing this for 'normal use' as defined by the copyrightstatement i posted earlier. They are precisely doing what is illegal under the copyright information i posted .

Here is the relevant bit and i have typed in Capital letters the specific bits for you.

' Such internal content is provided for musical performance and/or recording by the user of the instrument, and this type of NORMAL USE is to be supported and encouraged. No restrictions should apply to NORMAL USE of the internal content of a legitimately acquired electronic musical instrument.
However, the recent growth of digital technology and the Internet in combination with the inclusion of convenient features that add to the value of electronic musical instruments, has led to unprecedented problems in the form of ILLEGITIMATE COPYING AND DISTRIBUTION OF INTERNAL CONTENT that is OUTSIDE the scope of NORMAL USE.
Not only does such illegitimate use of internal electronic musical instrument content result in substantial losses to the producers of electronic musical instruments, but it is also an impediment to the progress of musical culture in general.
AMEI proposes the following to eliminate illegitimate use of internal content provided with electronic musical instruments and promote the proper use of such instruments.

The following uses of internal electronics musical instrument content are illegitimate:

THE EXTRACTION OF INTERNAL ELECTRONIC MUSICAL INSTRUMENT CONTENT FROM AN ELECTRONIC MUSICAL INSTRUMENT AND , WHETHER IN ORIGINAL OR MODIFIED FORM

RECORDING said content to a SEPARATE MEDIUM and OFFERING THAT MEDIUM ITSELF FOR SALE, or PRODUCING AN ELECTRONIC MUSICAL INSTRUMENT INTO WHICH THE EXTRACTED CONTENT HAS BEEN INCORPORATED AND OFFERING THAT INSTRUMENT FOR SALE.

Making said content available on, or TRANSMITTING SAID CONTENT OVER, A COMPUTER NETWORK.

A user may employ an electronic musical instrument for instrumental performance or the recording of such performances without restriction, but use that falls outside the scope of NORMAL USE, such as COPYING THE INSTRUMENTS'S BUILT IN CONTENT and/or DISTRIBUTING THE INSTRUMENTS BUILT IN CONTENT VIA A NETWORK (including making the INSTRUMENTS BUILT -IN CONTENT TRANSMISSABLE), may be in violation of copyright law. '

Can you see how copying the internal sounds wholesale AS DOM IS DOING and then selling or distributing that content in another keyboard is directly breaching the 'Normal use' exemption ?

It really cannot be any more clear than that.....or at least i cannot make it any more clear. As i have said i am sure some one will argue that its 'normal use' to copy a keyboards entire internal sounds and then sell them on but i would not bet on that case winning in court and i am really interested to see what will happen in the following months or years as this kind of theft becomes more widespread.

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#288174 - 06/18/10 02:14 PM Re: OS 4.3...
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
also AFG sampling from the outs of the keyboard may be permitted under ' the normal use ' clause but how can recording all the sounds from lets say the tyros 2 through the outputs of the keyboard, and packaging them for sale or to be given away be considered normal use under any stretch of the term 'normal use' ?????????

here is the relevant axtract from the copyright information i posted.

'Electronic musical instruments are provided with internal content such as sound waveform data and performance data with the intention that said internal content is to be used for MUSICAL EXPRESSION. Such internal content is provided for MUSICAL PERFORMANCE and/or RECORDING BY THE USER OF THE INSTRUMENT, and this type of normal use is to be supported and encouraged. No restrictions should apply to normal use of the internal content of a LEGITIMATELY ACQUIRED ELECTRONIC MUSICAL INSTRUMENT

Now look at what Liontracs is doing and tell me where the musical expression is in simply copying another keyboards sounds and then selling them in their own keyboard ???? This is precisiely the opposite of what is allowed under the copyright information i have gleaned !!!

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#288175 - 06/18/10 02:24 PM Re: OS 4.3...
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
The big question would be what is normal use.
And, remember that the prier post by Spalding is information given by Yamaha.

It is amazing to me how people can not see whether it is an acoustic instrument of electronic instrument the effect is the same.

Try this: replace the term electronic music instrument with Acoustic instrument in Yamahas double talk and see what happens.


I guess people are saying it is OK for some one to take a sound that is on a keyboard (Yamaha Roland Korg) , sample it by recording the audio outs, and giving away or selling or selling that new sample. You just can not say it is a sound from Yamaha Roland or Korg.
After all, that is the same thing Yamaha, Roland and Korg are doing with acoustic instruments and the same thing Lionstracks is doing with the T3.
They are not copying data they are just sampling and selling the samples.

What is so hard to understand with that.
_________________________
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#288176 - 06/18/10 02:52 PM Re: OS 4.3...
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
you just dont get it Genesys.
AMEI stands for

Association of Musical Electronics Industry. It is not yamahas view on copyright. It is the industry's view !!!

Next answer this question Genesys and then it will all fall into place.

1. Who is the author/owner of a piano sound ?
2. How can you tell ? Think back to what i said about the original creator ?
3. what is the content or intellectual property being protected ?
4. Now who is the author/owner of a sample created by yamaha/korg/roland of a piano sound ?
5. how can you tell ?
6. What is the intellectual property being protected ?

Some things can be copyrighted because you can identify the owner/author and you can clearly identify the intellectual property being protected. If you cant clearly identify the Author such as the creator of the piano (the original piano like 300 years ago) or the property being protected ( what is being protected with the piano, or what is the content) it is incapable of falling under the shadow of copyright law.

Sure i cant use trademark names like Rhodes or Steinway but i can certainly use the sampled sounds.



[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-18-2010).]

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#288177 - 06/18/10 03:38 PM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
you just dont get it Genesys.
AMEI stands for

Association of Musical Electronics Industry. It is not yamahas view on copyright. It is the industry's view !!!

Next answer this question Genesys and then it will all fall into place.

1. Who is the author/owner of a piano sound ?
2. How can you tell ? Think back to what i said about the original creator ?
3. what is the content or intellectual property being protected ?
4. Now who is the author/owner of a sample created by yamaha/korg/roland of a piano sound ?
5. how can you tell ?
6. What is the intellectual property being protected ?

Some things can be copyrighted because you can identify the owner/author and you can clearly identify the intellectual property being protected. If you cant clearly identify the Author such as the creator of the piano (the original piano like 300 years ago) or the property being protected ( what is being protected with the piano, or what is the content) it is incapable of falling under the shadow of copyright law.

Sure i cant use trademark names like Rhodes or Steinway but i can certainly use the sampled sounds.

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-18-2010).]


now i ask you who is the author/owner of fist sample based music instrument sound?


answer:

Chamberlin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamberlin

who is first original creator of of fist sample based music instrument.


answer:

Chamberlin


did Chamberlin protect his samples?

answer:

......................


did Chamberlin copyright the sound prodused by his sample based music instrument?

answer:

......................

did one from big 3 ever sampled or redampled sounds from Chamberlins sample based music instruments or Mellotron?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mellotron

answer:

.......................


So this discussion is not as easy as you think.

other example:

if you use one style from your arranger on stage and you have this instruments sounds inside your style Drumkit-Guitar-Bass

then this damage is caused by your sample-based hardware music instrument sounds

1- 3 less players
2- 3 fewer instruments sold by real instrument makers.


now if they are 1000 users round the world that use the same style like you did what impact will it have for the real instrument makers and analog synth makers and their players only for one day?

is that fair?

is not better if big 3 say we copyright our wave data on romchip, but the final sound from output is not copyrighted becouse we also sample sounds from other sources freely?



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-18-2010).]

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#288178 - 06/18/10 05:08 PM Re: OS 4.3...
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
i have absolutely no idea what points you are raising AFG and no idea what relevance the links you have posted mean.

Do you accept/understand any of the points i made about identifying the author /creator and the intellectual property that is being protected by copyright ?

your question about who is the author of sample based equipment is completely irrelevant.In 1949 did copyright law exist in the way it does today AFG ?????????????????. Is the mellodrome protected by copyright or Patent AFG. Do you even understand the difference between the two ???? ! Chamberlain may have patented his invention but he did not copyright it ! they are completly different concepts. Im am not going to explain the difference to you , i just dont have the patience.

And i honestly dont have any idea what points you are making towards the end about reducing numbers of musicians and fairness.

I cant see any point in your line of reasoning. Perhaps if you made your points first then refered to your links and explained the relevance of them i could make more sense of what you are saying.

Sorry if i am misunderstanding you.

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#288179 - 06/18/10 05:16 PM Re: OS 4.3...
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Like you said, you can not copyright a sound.
So under your version, it would be ok if some one samples Yamaha, Roland or Korg keyboard as long as they dont say the accurate name of the original sample.
Same thing when you sample a name brand piano that has a distinct sound.

And, for those who dont know, acoustic instruments have Intellectual property protection.
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#288180 - 06/18/10 06:12 PM Re: OS 4.3...
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
I give up. i dont have Dikkis tenacity ha ha :-)



[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-18-2010).]

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#288181 - 06/19/10 01:57 AM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
I give up. i dont have Dikkis tenacity ha ha :-)

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-18-2010).]


spalding1968 here's another example from itlay, maybe nothing to do with this topic. but you can see how a lawsuit may end in different places:
http://ipjustice.org/media/release20040112_en.shtml

and can you please explain what you mean by resampling.

Quote:
In 1949 did copyright law exist in the way it does today AFG ?????????????????. Is the mellodrome protected by copyright or Patent AFG. Do you even understand the difference between the two ???? ! Chamberlain may have patented his invention but he did not copyright it ! they are completly different concepts. Im am not going to explain the difference to you , i just dont have the patience.


How long does a copyright last?
Copyrights in works created since 1978 will last for 70 years after the death of the work's author. If the work is what the copyright law calls a "work made for hire," created by employees within the scope of their employment, the work will last for 95 years from the work's first publication or 120 years from its creation, whichever is shorter. The provisions on copyrights in works created and published before 1978 are complicated, but, as a general rule, the copyright in those works will last 95 years. Anything first published in 1923 or earlier, though, is in the public domain.

How do I get a copyright?
You probably already have one. Copyright protection is automatic. As soon as you create a work and fix it in tangible form, copyright law protects it. You don't need to register your copyright or apply to a government office for approval. At one time, U.S. law required authors to affix a copyright notice to their works, but Congress eliminated that requirement in 1989.

article:
http://www.csusa.org/info_faq.htm




[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-19-2010).]

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#288182 - 06/19/10 10:44 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6482
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
As soon as you create a work and fix it in tangible form, copyright law protects it.


And there is the issue. Sound is not legally considered to be tangible. ie. it can't be defined in a way that would satisfy a court. It is that simple. There is not a single case of a sound ever being able to be protected by copyright.

Certainly recorded music CAN be defined because the notes can be written down on paper but though the sounds define the notes it is still not the sound that is tangible it but the music itself.


When it comes to a mechanical instrument, particular mechanics ( and electronics ) of the instrument can be defined and can be protected under copyright. The details can be documented if needed. Likewise the brand name is certainly protected. Now a sample of a sound can also be protected because it has
a tangible bit pattern and waveform. Every sample is different no two are alike even if they sound similar and the way 2 photos of the same scene are no identical. A digital sample CAN be identified in a court of law.

Although the original analog sound and a digital sample ( that can be used to make a sound ) may seem the same to some of you, legally they NOT.

( By the way that photo of a blueprint is simply the same as a scan of a photo as the blue print can be defined in a court of law so is always protected ).

Bottom line is an analog sound is NOT tangible so can't be defined in a court of law.

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#288183 - 06/19/10 10:50 AM Re: OS 4.3...
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6482
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Unless someone can cite a SINGLE legal precadence where a court has defined an analog sound as being tangible and having copyright protection there is nothing more to argue about here as to the best of my knowledge that precadence doesn't exist.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 06-19-2010).]

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#288184 - 06/19/10 11:32 AM Re: OS 4.3...
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Nigel, but one question remains behind:

are raw samples on rom chip the same as the produced and synthesized final sound from a digital sample based music instrument outputs?

becouse when some one use for example Extreme Sampler Editor he has no information about how the raw samples are used and many many other things.

moreover copyright on ROM chip samples is good and well understood. You can read some posts back that i have said this already.

but produced and synthesized final sound from a digital sample based hardware music instrument outputs is tangible and having copyright protection?

or maybe they Watermarking the Raw wave data on rom chip?

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-19-2010).]

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#288185 - 06/19/10 04:12 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6482
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
are raw samples on rom chip the same as the produced and synthesized final sound from a digital sample based music instrument outputs?


No of course they aren't but the output of any of the factory patches would still have a fingerprint that would match significantly at the outputs as well.

If the patch was edited to significantly change the digital fingerprint of the waveform from that created by the original factory patch ... then that would not be subject to copyright because it would really become an original work at that point. And it would require work.

Note though it must be edited to significantly change the digital fingerprint so it really is a distinctly different waveform.

Now whether manufacturers would ever be that interested in comparing digital fingerprints of waveforms is doubtful. But if they thought their market was being threatened their sounds being carbon copied they would have legal grounds to do it.

None of this should really affect how musicians use sounds and styles in their own music anyway.

Besides, sampling any other synth doesn't come close to the original in terms of playing dynamics because it is just a snap shot. None of the realtime filter settings and after touch controls are active on the sample. That would require much more programming, and then it probably would be better to not print the original programming or effects. Personally I don't think the original manufacturers would feel that threatened by the result.

Creating a good sample based patch with layers and velocity switching is not something that is easily accomplished. Better off just using off the shelf solutions ... they will probably sound better.

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#288186 - 06/20/10 04:28 PM Re: OS 4.3...
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
I think we have discussed this topic adnauseam where there are differing views on this subject.

But just to leave you all with somethings to research regarding intellectual property protection for companies that develop instruments, research whether colors have intellectual property protection.


Also, think about this: if next month, fender releases an electric guitar that has certain physical and mechanical features that cause the instrument to produce a distinct and unique sound, and two weeks later someone samples the sound an makes it in to a keyboard patch, a VST, and includes it as a patch on a guitar pedal, would Fender have any rights?


No need to answer just think about it.
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#288187 - 06/20/10 07:41 PM Re: OS 4.3...
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6482
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
I think we have discussed this topic adnauseam where there are differing views on this subject.

No need to answer just think about it.


I think this is a good place to just close this thread.

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