http://planetkeys.blogspot.com/

with possibly a piano and an organ version to follow.

Bill

Seems like all and everyone have noticed that current generation arrangers is not innovating anymore, they all try and take their chances...

First professional arranger with open system feautures and top quallity sounds and styles takes a big piece of the cake.

Hi,
may need to get some of the bugs ironed out in the software first.
Personally I don't think the style functions in a software arranger are a patch my PA3X.
To me, you could have the most amazing sounds in the world available, but, if the style player isn't up to scratch, what's the point.

At the moment software arrangers can play Ketron & Yamaha style formats. Neither format is as good as the korg.
I'm not talking about ketron or yamaha styles themselves, I like both. I'm talking about the style format.

I've got 3 software arrangers. It's a great inexpensive way to be able to play Yamaha, Ketron & soon on VArranger Roland styles.

If I was paying thousands of dollars for a keyboard, I'd want something a bit more sophisticated than OMB or Livestyler as my onboard style player.

Wersi has had open instruments out for more than ten years that can do anything you need them to do. If you can't afford an Abacus, Scala, or Louvre, a Pegasus Wing will get you most of the OAS features for less than the cost of a Tyros 4 or PA3X. Those who doubt the capabilities of these instruments should check them out before making uninformed conclusions about them. Music Store is making the product more accessible and more affordable than ever.

rikkisbears,

When you mention the 'format' not being that good on both Ketron and Yamaha, please expand on what about the format you are refering to. Just curious .... maybe an example or two will help.

Thanks,

AJ

I have been following the flight of the Wing for sometime, wasn't certain if it had crashed and lost at sea somewhere, but now it's in full production, where is it, who's bought one, who's playing one, Robert playing the demo above is about 2 years old and as yet not seen one played anywhere. I don't think it will catch on, not one SZer interested in a Wing, I was once over but I am now taking the right medication.

I take it you have one, if so can we have a rundown and perhaps some demos, it will be a first.


Regards

Tony

Hi AJ,
I was referring to the Ketron & Yamaha format the software arrangers play.
VArranger can play my old SD1+ styles reasonably well midied to an sd2. The style format certainly doesn't have the same possibilitie as the Korg PA3X or even PA800 format with it's guitar mode , the 6 cv's for variations based on a variety of chord types (my understanding has always been my sd1 styles that the cv's had to be recorded as maj, min & 7th chords, unless I got that wrong). The ability to have different time signatures in the various style parts. Being able to have 32 bars for a style part including fills etc . It's a very versatile style format.
Personally I think the software arrangers are good value for money for one's pc, but , if I was going to spend thousands of dollars on a keyboard that used the current available software arrangers, I'd sooner buy an Arranger keyboard be it a Yamaha, ketron , roland or korg.

Understood now. You're absolutely correct.

I don't know the Korg style format yet, but I think that Yamaha style format is on some aspects, the most advanced.

Ketron and Roland style format are very similar. They are OK for most of tasks.

I am not sure that, there is some utility to record some styles in Em7#11, etc... like Yamaha do on some styles.

Maybe to make it harder to convert to other keyboards

Hi Dan,
be interesting to see how you go with the korg format.
Pre or Post Guitar Mode?
Guitar Mode 1 (PA2X)
Guitar Mode 2 (PA3X)
Guitar Mode 1.These aren't normal midi tracks. Single Notes actually create strums. Chord Changes for Intro's & Endings are created via note velocity.
Guitar Mode 2 as above, but with the addition of midi notes in Guitar Mode tracks.

The earlier pre guitar mode styles were more simple.
When viewed in a pc sequencer they are quite similar to psr styles.

I am still at trying to understand the Korg style compression algorythm. A little far from decoding the guitar modes

Note that Yamaha since Tyros 3 also own a special guitar mode.

Ketron on the audya also use some special mapping for the audio guitars

The best would be a mix of all those ideas to make guitar tracks more live

Hi Dan,
yeh, but they're still just mid tracks, korg guitar mode tracks aren't.
ie, if you change the yamaha style's to .mid, it turns it into a midifile of the style.
You'd know better than me, but I'm guessing guitar mode in yamaha is actually an additional note transposition setting allowing more realistic voicing of guitar tracks???
Not the case in the korg pa2x, if i export a style as a midifile , the single guitar mode notes that produce strums, stay as they are, only time they get expanded into a full chord is if used when recording a song & saving song as a midifle.
Reminds me a bit of the guitar macro notes used in some of the Band in a Box midi styles.
Only point i was trying to make is, to me (someone who knows absolutely nothing about computer programming) the style structure appears to be a bit more complex than on the Ketron or Yamaha.

I really hope you can work it out. Be fanastic if VArranger can eventually play all 4 main style formats. Currently Ketron/Yamaha,
Roland on it's way, and if you manage to add Korg, even if only for Pre Guitar mode styles ( the early version of PA800 styles didn't have guitar mode . Guitar mode was an upgrade of function & some upgraded styles, a few months after I bought my PA800.)

[quote=DAN.2000]Note that Yamaha since Tyros 3 also own a special guitar mode.

Dan, how close are you with the V Arranger being able to play Yamaha styles?

Will you be providing Wavetables with V Arranger, e.g., GM, XG, etc.?

Can you program the V Arranger to respond to fills, endings, etc. by using the lowest octave on a midi keyboard?

If you can let me in on your future or strategic plans I could be persuaded to part with my cash and invest in V Arranger. You can email me directly at flr@mts.net.

You probably already know that I have been using a software based arranger for many, many, many years. Along with this I have been using VSTs and samples.

Rikki, I still think you should give up on hardware based arrangers and go with an elegant, reliable and powerful software based arranger system!!! Just sayin'. It feels lonely in here .... it would be nice if there were at least one more person who only uses software (ignoring Wersi, Mediastation, etc.)....oh well!!!


Frank

Hi Frank,
how are you, haven't seen you pop up in ages. So good to hear from you again.

I'm just enjoying my PA3X too much to give up on my keyboards. I do have Dan's Varranger though.

How's your your 2012 setup going?


btw VArranger does play Yamaha styles already. Dan's working on adding Roland in the future.
Better to let Dan fill you in on the rest of your questions.

Hi Frank,

vArranger can play Yamaha styles.

vArranger is always improving its universal sound module support with its GM GM2 GS and XG modes + instrument definition from INS files too. It is still not 100% perfect, but always improving through new free updates.

For each style, you can save the routing, so you decide that the BASS sound will go to one midi module, and the DRUMS will sound with another sound module or VST

I am also working on a 100% software package to go with vArranger. With SF2 support too

But from what I tested with Hypersonic2, the sound is very good.

http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/topic/47403/gonew/1

I will receive the latest Steinberg Halion Sonic VST this week, and will test it very well too.

You can of course decide that the lowest octave of a midi keyboard will control fills, ending, and all other features of vArranger....

You can also decide that a Key will trigger ENDING 2 for a song, and ENDING 3 for another song...

Let me know if you need more information.

Dan, I think you got a sale....you are an excellent sales person!!!

I use Halion Sonic v1.5. What is the difference with version 2 of Halion (regular) vs sonic?

I have been using other wavetables as well SGM2.01, Kontakt Bandstand, etc. In addition I use forte to tie it all together. For the right hand voices I use high quality samples, e.g., kontakt, eastwest, Bardstown, and many, many, many more.

Thank you

Frank

Rikki, I am doing fine after some very dark years. I have been keeping my software based system updated and am completely at home with it. The biggest changes in recent times has been the switch to a very powerful PC (memory, processor and hard drives, etc.).....there is just no latency, noise, distortion, or other artifacts on my systerm.

Thank you

Frank

Good to hear from you again Frank. Just wondering what styleplayer you're currently using?



The big advantage of Hypersonic is that it produces the typical Yamaha sound and therefor is a very good soundsource for .sty files. (steinberg is owned by Yamaha)




--------------------------------------



I have got another question, has anyone been playing around with KORG styles? and how would it be to use a Kronos as the soundsource for those Korg styles?

As Ricky recently explained, it seems Korg styles style format is a bit more complicated then the others, and therefor requires a lot of work to implement.. Is it possible to get the guitar mode working?

Bachus, I am currently using Live-Styler v14 with all the wavetables and samples you can buy from Norbert. In addition, I have OMB.

Long ago (possibly in the 1990s) I started with style players such as Music Companion (Roland styles), RMCA, Evolution Studio Pro (I am not sure I got the name right) Jammer Live and a few others (can't remember). From here I moved into Live - Styler for live playing and sometimes used OMB.

I will acquire VArranger today.

Thank you

Frank

I hope we'll get an update of your first experiences with V-arranger. Afterall you are the most experience soft-arranger user. Just wondering how V-arranger compares to live-styler. As we all can see Dan is very proactive overhere, and continously improving his products.

Looks like vArranger will be shipped via mail or some other means. I was hoping I would be able to download it after payment. I sent Dan an email concerning this subject.

Oh, Oh I spoke to soon, Dan will send me the download instruction....so things will happen as it should.

Thanks Dan


Frank

can I ask why it is so expensive? 349 Euro for a software arranger?

I am sure it is great, but can't you just buy a Korg Micro or similar and trigger all the VST's in the computer using any VST Host?

what am I missing here? what are advantages of this Varranger? I did bought Live Styler and One Man band a while ago never really liked the interface so not using them...

Hi

A Software arranger can be updated over time with new features, a hardware arranger has limited update potential due to the inbuilt hardware, and thus you have to buy a complete new keyboard to keep up to date with the current state of play in the market. (This means that while initially cheap, the fact that you have to buy a new board every 3 years or so, makes it a very expensive option in the long run)

BTW: All arrangers these days are software arrangers (Tyros 4, PA3x etc.) however they will only run on their own hardware thus updates are limited.

Price wise the T4 is approx. 3599 whereas Varranger is 349, so it’s not expensive at all (Remember VArranger can do most of what the T4, PA3x can do, as well as much more)

Bill

Developing software costs loads of times, combined with the very small market for software arrangers this should be enough to explain the price

Why do people allways think that software should be cheep? Sure iphone apps are cheep, but then you can sell millions of copies.

Tough you have a point, V-arranger is more then twice the price of live-styler, and i still haven't figured out what V-arranger can offer me that Live-styler cant. (except importing midi styles with markers)

I agree with Bill concerning his comments on the benefits of a software based arranger system. In addition you have the flexibility to use any wavetable or instrument samples you wish all the way up to the highest quality available today. Again these can be updated as improvements are implemented. Same holds true for other supporting software, e.g., vocal harmonizers, effects, etc. In other words any VST can be tied together with virtual midi cables and VST Hosts, e.g., forte, etc.

Plus you can use the Midi Controller of your choice (88 note, 76 note, 61 note, weighted or not and the features for controlling your software).

Plus I just simply like the overall elegant philosophy of a totally software based solution.

To make all this sound and operate well you need to pay attention to the computer and sound card your going to use. Plus it takes time to set it all up and make it work reliably.

I think I was not clear in my message I never said that software should be cheap, I own more software than I actually use,

including, NI Komplete, Reason, Sonar, Live, Nexus, Omnisphere etc..my question is what is the benefit of having such expensive software when you can do this with any reasonable arranger and any VST host?

I just bought Korg Micro Arranger and I am triggering my VST in real time in Sonar I can use a cheaper VST host if needed,

I hope my question makes sense what is the benefit of a software arranger? if it just playback other companies arranger styles any conversion program can do that I just loaded Yamaha styles in my Micro?



now that is what I am saying?

As I said before a manufacture comes out with a new arranger that plays instruments more realistically than a previous arranger, (Not a new voice but a new way of playing it) no matter what VST you have it will not be able to replicate it because they are not arrangers, so you have to buy a new board that can transmit this new feature to the VST.

With a software arranger, this feature can be added easily without having to buy a new arranger.

LIvestyler and Varranger

Microsoft office costs money, open office is free; both do the same job so why pay for Microsoft? The answer is that you can put things together in Microsoft Office 3 times faster than in Open Office, which in a busy environment will save a lot of time and money, thus easily paying for itself.

If you just use office software occasionally than Open Office will be fine so no need to pay more.

Varranger is newer and has a really slick OS (Microsoft Office) whereas Livestyler has a messy and more convoluted OS (Open Office) which is fine if you have the time, if you don’t than Varranger will be better suited to you as there is less work involved.

Style conversion software is OK but there is still a lot of work involved to get the style right. The software arranger can be programed to replicate any hardware arranger, thus adjustments are reduced.

As to why you would use other manufactures styles, answer this question, why is conversion software so popular? The answer is that not one manufacture provides all the styles that a consumer wants.

Bill

I have Varranger and although I like it it doesn´t come close to my PA3X. I use it mainly as a practice tool. I still prefer the hardware arranger.

Sorry m8, I have to disagree!! Live Styler is every bit as slick as vArranger...maybe you should check ver 14?? Plus vArranger has NO software instrument support,coming, yes, but who knows when exactly and how it will really work, so the argument that it is easy to change sounds (at this stage anyway) does not really hold for vArranger as it is 100% dependent on a hardware device!!

vArranger has NO inbuilt effects systems. It relies on the hardware module still,

vArranger has NO VST or VSTi support, rather you have to have load up an external VST host and then port to that and then back...

All of these things Live Styler has, in addition, with the Plus version, you can automatically play Yamaha, Ketron Roland styles, just load and play... I know this is coming to vArranger but we do not know when..

There are just so many MORE features(just as there are on vArranger-but imho don't justify a 200% price difference) available on Live Styler it would take too long to post here, so the question remains, why what many consider an INFERIOR (but still good) program is DOUBLE the price of the superior one...... which is the suggestion this poster (navidsyad) is making.

Hi Frank,
it's just so good to hear from you again. Sounds like your setup is still keeping you busy. haahaa
Couldn't beleive it. AJ ( Bluezplayer) popped up out of the blue a few weeks ago, hadn't seen him on the forum in years. He got himself a PA3X. Haven't heard from him since.

Ditto. Bear in mind though, a Pa3X costs Thousands of dollars, VArranger costs Hundreds.

I am happy to see you have become to like live-styler that much. Version 14 is really performing well. Tough i have some issues on my laptop, but they seem driver related.

Norbert is also continuosly adding features to live-styler and its far from a death project. I am sure if the fanbase is loud enough, those feautures in Varranger will be eventually added to live-styler.


Leaves me still with the fact that both programs deliver about equall performance but Varranger being 2 times as pricey.


Biggest problems with software arrangers has allways been the soundsource, and OSL seems on the verge of solving that for everyone thanks to you and James.

Hi Bachus,
one problem I've had with LiveStyler for years, is it's ability to play back piano arpeggio's correctly. A lot of the styles I use have piano arpeggio's.
I don't mean a simple synth type arpeggio, I mean a proper piano arpeggio that could literally be used on it's own.

Ok , it might play back correctly using a C maj chord, when I play just say an F min chord, it jumbled up the notes, instead of holding to the correct pattern and just transposing the notes to suit. What one would call a Parallel setting in Korg.

Wondering if version. 14 has fixed that.
[quote=Bachus]

Thanks Bachus..James will appreciate that too...

Yes I have come to the conclusion that Live Styler in many ways is quite superior to vArranger. In fact I cannot think of one area (apart from the new chord sequencer type function) where vArranger comes close tbh...

And just wait until you see what is coming in version 15 (I have been lucky enough to get a pre-release beta - even more functions!!)

As there is no demo version of vArranger (a big mistake in my view) I managed to get a copy of the manual for vArranger from the vArranger forum, so it is a publicly available document (but NOT directly available from the vArranger web page interestingly enough!!), and it was after reading that that I realised that apart form a nice looking GUI, and nicely mapped controls, it had little real substance...It essentially is a "PC Front-End" for a Ketron SD2 hardware module...

Now I fully expect owners to come out and start decrying all of this, and understandable it is too, especially when they have paid double the price...and THEN having to add the cost of an SD2 Hardware module as well!!!
And for what is imo, as I said, a glorified PC editing and playing front end only..

Now also to be fair, as I said, I believe these things ARE coming to vArranger, tools like VST support, a software sound set instead of relying on the hardware, MAYBE some software effects, ability to run other style formats -and some other stuff I think, but at the double the price for less function???

I don't think so!

It was an outside chance of making it to the OSL, but this lack of function, especially VST and NO software sound base, or even an option to use one, killed it even before considering price.

It is a GREAT program for SD2 owners, and Dan should be proud of what he has actually done, and I am not "bagging" it per se, just from the p.o.v. of the OSL and TRUE fully integrated software arranging and backing. I think it will, however, remain in the realm of boutique software due to obstinate pricing policies where it will be mainly for those folk who can afford to buy many keyboards and bits and pieces and software essentially on a whim..NOT a criticism of those who can, good luck to em I say , merely an observation.

Dennis

Rikki,

Send me one of your piano arp styles, and I will happily test it for you...

Dennis

You’re missing the point, Varranger is like a T4 in operation, so is easy for anybody to use and get used to, Livestyler on the other hand is more like a Workstation, which while more flexible is more difficult for less experienced users to set up. (Arrangers are more expensive than Workstations because they are designed to be easy play by anybody, thus more money has to be spent on making the OS more intuitive)

Bill

As is LiveStyler Bill, it is very intuitive and from the front screen VERYeasy to use, as is vArranger....but just like any GOOD hardware arranger, it has real depth as well for those who want to explore it.

Not compulsory as Norbert has it set up pretty well o.o.t.b, but the depth is there if you want to take it further....just ask ANY Korg owner about just how good having this depth is!!!

As I said m8, I am not bagging vArranger, just saying it is not suitable for our purposes....and as a personal view only, I think it is over-priced for what you get...

seen discussion here, I agree with NavidSyed and Miden.

vArranger should have all options that are now present on LiveStyler and extra options posted earlier on another thread for asked price:

vArranger software need a style Sequencer with its own format too (maybe MIDI format with Markers recognition for intro-fills-variation-ends):

8-intro
8-variations
8-fills
8-Ends

-and one special guitar track (when you change chords the guitar track, change the chord like a real Guitar Chord Scale)
-and also:

1 track for loops slices (played through a midi midi sequence):

8-intro sliced loops (8 midi sequences)
8-variations sliced loops (8 midi sequences)
8-fills (8 midi sequences)
8-Ends (8 midi sequences)

and if you can not make a style Sequencer, then support for

MIDI style with markers and one track for special Guitar track and one for midi sequences for sliced loops will also be good.

then style creators can use third party Sequencer for styles,

and for slices ReCycle:

http://www.propellerheads.se/products/recycle/



and of course those options are also an opportunity for Norbert(LiveStyler) to add on LiveStyler and keep the price low as it is(for version without soundsource).


currently LivesStyler need a better Gui and some bugs fixes (for example 7/8 or 7/16 styles does not play correctly) on demo version.

and a new gui should be easily achievable for Nobert, because the software is already written, and developer can easily customize the GUI code section.

it is also important to know which language both programs are written:


becouse a good C++ software is always faster end more stable then some other languages (but it depends on the writer too).

Yes I know but you need a controller, sound source, pc or labtop etc to get Varranger too work and sound properly. A hardware arranger has anything you need in one and is much user friendly.

And a Korg PA50 or Micro Arranger are cheaper then Varranger

The problem is that every arranger player has different needs and wants, those listed here are your needs and wants(mostly wants)

Personally i agree with every single one of them as being wants on my list.

-I'd also would love to see an option to add audio tracks, that adjust to the chords played and the speed set.
-I'd love to see your proposed guitar mode to be compatible with both Rolands as Korgs guitar mode.
-I'd love for a Matrix view that allows me to combine the beat of Var 1 with the guitar track of Var 2 and the Base of Var5 (touch screens allow for much more versatile UI's then hard buttoned arrangers)

Anyway, with enough innovation the possibilities and quallity of soft arrangers should surpass current hardware arrangers while still being rockstable.

My motto is Easy to opperate on the top layer, and infinite tunabillity in the sub menus. As soon as people realise that soft arrangers have more to offer then just playing the styles that where created for the hardware versions... that they have more possbillities and options while still having the same quallity and stabillity, at a fraction of the costs, then they will move to software arranger.

Both V-arranger and live-styler are continuously growing and addapting and have the prommise of surpassing the standard hardware arrangers. But that will take a lot of time and dedication. But some day in the not to distant future we might realise that they have moved past the hardware versions.

http://stygmorgan.berlios.de/features.html


can play yamaha styles and users can create Midi styles on third party sequencer with marker.

pity only under linux, and developer out of reach.

year 2003 this software has verry good options:

http://www.soundtrek.com/content/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=11

'm not sure yet developed

Jammer Live (your last link there) WAS an excellent app, as was its big brother Jammer Pro...it was a very good little software arranger, and very solid under XP. I actually STILL have my licenced full version somewhere on the data drive "gathering dust"

A pity Soundtrek did not take it further, it was an EXCELLENT start and so far ahead of the others available at the time

Thanks for the memory

Hi Dennis,
I'll find the styles I'm talking about.

Other question , does your version of Livestyler play Ketron styles, if so, I have a style that I'd luv a midifile of, plus an mp3,mainly interested in Intro's/Endings. Don't even care if you have correect drums, just mute, it's not the sound I'mm interested in, it's the data.

I've only got the older basic version which doesn't play Ketron. Haven't bothered to upgrade my version as yet.

Hi Rikki,
Yep sure do...BUT I am still finalising the OSL Sound library that will be used exclusively on the OSL System...should only be a few days, so if you can wait that long...no probs...

The piano arp one I can do straight away, as it is really only seeing if it actually runs okay, not ow it sounds correct?

Cheers
Dennis

Hi Dennis,
thank you, that would be great. May have to be later this afternoon, I'm waiting for my new washer/dryer to arrive.
Better do a Laundry tidy up first. haahaa

Hi
Jammer Live was great in it's day. They only did version 1 & stopped updating it ( as far as I'm aware) So dissapointing.