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#286264 - 04/22/10 06:36 AM Open or Closed Keyboard
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5352
Loc: English Riviera, UK
I have posted something like this before, but most folks have now forgotten it, so I thought I would post again.

1. If you want a keyboard where everything is done for you, and you are happy to accept what the manufacture supplies for you, then a closed keyboard is the way to go.

2. If you want to do your own thing, use the sounds and software you want, are prepared to put the work in and never have to buy a new keyboard (Just update the Hardware/Software) then an open keyboard is for you

To sum up

OOTB experience, go for closed

Do your own thing, go for open
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#286265 - 04/22/10 06:56 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Based on what you've posted, I prefer a closed arranger keyboard, but I would like to add this...

My mid-range Yamaha PSR-S910 allows me to edit sounds, styles, effects, registrations...I can import new styles, and sounds (edited on-board voices) and customize the instrument to my needs and style of playing.

If one is prepared to put in the work, a "closed" keyboard can be very adaptable to a player's expressive style and needs.

Maybe not to the degree an open system can provide, but, still pretty flexible and personalizable nonetheless.


Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-22-2010).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#286266 - 04/22/10 07:06 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Ian agreed....ditto.

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#286267 - 04/22/10 08:23 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
I also agree with Ian. My PA500 allow you to change everything. Beside that it is also fun to buy a new keyboard so now and then. Also closed keyboards are much better supported.

Frans

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#286268 - 04/22/10 09:06 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Come to think of it, any arranger with MIDI ports is hardly a totally "closed" system.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#286269 - 04/22/10 09:30 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Yes or you use the USB and a laptop and you can do the same as an open keyboard if you want.

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#286270 - 04/22/10 09:53 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by abacus:
I have posted something like this before, but most folks have now forgotten it, so I thought I would post again.

1. If you want a keyboard where everything is done for you, and you are happy to accept what the manufacture supplies for you, then a closed keyboard is the way to go.

2. If you want to do your own thing, use the sounds and software you want, are prepared to put the work in and never have to buy a new keyboard (Just update the Hardware/Software) then an open keyboard is for you

To sum up

OOTB experience, go for closed

Do your own thing, go for open



it depends on what you understand under open or closed.

a product such as Wersi Lionstracs or MS / GROOVE, also comes with sounds and styles. if people are satisfied with the styles and sounds, they have nothing to do and the product is as good as closed arranger.

but if they later want to do more than they can also do it. because every day they learn more of the capabilities of the product.

if you have doubts about open system, just use one as your second keyboard. then you wil see that is an ultimate set to.

many people buy the same two closed products, and give no chance for new open products.

people have the wrong idea about open systems. they think it is just a PC or laprop, with some electronic parts linked to PC.

but they forget if a product is well made as LIONSTRACS MS / GROOVE it's like you're working on a closed system.

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#286271 - 04/22/10 11:58 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14203
Loc: NW Florida
It's already been shown that the styles and sounds that COME with the MS are very lackluster and amateurish. So, as is shown by the interest in Yamaha style players and Ketron style players, you HAVE to start out as if it were an empty keyboard.

But, to be honest, the answer to the question is 'NEITHER'...

I don't want to have to give up expandability for an arranger that sounds great OOTB, but I ALSO don't want to give up immediacy and ease of use for something that is expandable. And currently, NO-ONE is offering us that choice. The open arranger makers COULD, right now, but they are too cheap, lazy or ignorant to realize what 99% of the market actually WANT... Sure, we want what they got, but we want what WE got, too. Put the two together, make it affordable, and the world will beat a path to their door.

Take the path they have chosen... it's up to YOU to do ALL the work, if you want to at least sound the equal of a closed arranger, let alone better, it's going to take prodigious amounts of work and skill, and they will remain what they are now... niche products for a niche market (and a subset of what is already a niche market )

The arranger is already relegated to a fraction of sales of WS's. And open arrangers are a tiny fraction of that fraction. Simply because the manufacturers won't take the time and effort that the closed arranger manufacturers do. Look at the sales figures... it's is obvious to all but the deliberately blind and ignorant what the vast majority of arranger players wants. That doesn't mean we don't want the open expandability AS WELL. But only a tiny handful want to give up what's GOOD about a closed arranger to get what's good about an open one...

I want it ALL...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#286272 - 04/22/10 12:34 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5352
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I want it ALL...[/B]


Who doesnt?

Currently however the big boys wont make them open, so that they can tie you in to what only they provide. (Including a new keyboard every 3years)

The smaller companys on the other hand, can make everything open, but dont have the finances to create bespoke styles, so have to rely on using others.

My post was just to point out the differences, so as to make it easier for prospective customers to choose which type of keyboard would suit them. (The best keyboard on the planet today, is the one that suits YOU not somebody else)

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#286273 - 04/22/10 12:59 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14203
Loc: NW Florida
Don't have the finances? Haven't they heard of something called 'making an investment'?

I mean, who in their right mind WOULDN'T want an open arranger if it started out with as good a selection of styles and sounds that comes in a TOTL closed one?

What do they want? 1% of the market, or 90% of the market? You have to spend money to make money. Blowing it all on continual OS development, at the cost of zero quality included content has been the reason why they AREN'T the market leader. For all their limitations, at least no-one can accuse the closed arranger manufacturers of not knowing what the vast majority of arranger players WANT...

But it's far to easy to see that the open guys don't CARE what we want. And who wants a product from a company with THAT attitude?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#286274 - 04/22/10 01:34 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:

I mean, who in their right mind WOULDN'T want an open arranger if it started out with as good a selection of styles and sounds that comes in a TOTL closed one?



Obviously not you and most of the other folks here on the arranger forum. Wersi has been making open ended arrangers for 10 years and there are all but a handful of users on this group who own them. For those like me who do own open system keyboards I can attest that the factory sounds easily rival all but a few sounds your closed system keyboard has. In that event all I do is toss in a few Giga samples or AKAI samples and there isn't a closed end arranger or workstation that can compete with those sounds.

Contrary to what you and others believe, the factory sounds and styles are fine OOTB. The difference is if you don't like a factory sound you can load a Giga file, AKAI sound, or other third party VST program to make it even better. If you need more styles simply use the stlye editor to create your own or import Yamaha, Roland, Ketron, Technics, or Korg files.



[This message has been edited by Ensnareyou (edited 04-22-2010).]

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#286275 - 04/22/10 01:59 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14203
Loc: NW Florida
Contrary to what YOU believe.... Sorry, old chum, but you can't speak for me about what I consider 'acceptable' in factory sounds and styles. I've heard nearly everything there IS with the factory styles on the MS, and they aren't even CLOSE. Maybe close enough for you (but I doubt it, or you wouldn't be so adamant about making your own... mind you, curious I've never heard these, isn't it?), but certainly not close enough for me.

I'll put my G70 ROM styles untweaked up against most of THEM.

And, when you want to talk about the Wersi, for starters, let's pretend that the Abacus's aren't firstly, dead in the water, and secondly, about double the price of any other arranger, and thirdly, WAY too 'home organist' in approach with the factory styles and sounds. Which, BTW are the 'Factory' sounds, not third party VSTi ones. It's not like your Abacus came with NO decent styles or sounds, but at an exorbitant price. And there STILL isn't an extensive soundset and style set based around top quality VSTi's, which is kind of the whole POINT of an open arranger, isn't it? The BEST sounds, with the BEST styles...

Isn't that the Holy Grail...? Or is making your own second rate styles more satisfying than using someone else's first rate ones? I'm not being harsh, here. If I had heard anything consistently amazing out of ANY of the open arrangers, despite being out of my price range, I would be the FIRST to say what an amazing product they are. But when I hear demo after demo after demo of mediocrity at best, and sometimes outright cringeworthy excrement at worse, it's hard for me to accept the rhetoric.

As I said, when someone makes an open arranger that STARTS out as good sounding as a closed TOTL one, and MAKES IT AFFORDABLE (remember that part? ) and adds in all the good stuff from open arrangers, the world will start buying them. But in the meantime, you can talk all you want. Until I hear a clear, unequivocable improvement in the sound of open arrangers over closed ones, their disadvantages FAR outweigh their advantages.

Only HEARING lots of top notch musical examples is going to change my mind in the least. You can post till you are blue in the face, but I need to HEAR it, not read it. And I've heard pretty much everything already done. So you had better point me to something a LOT better...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#286276 - 04/22/10 02:04 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:


people have the wrong idea about open systems. they think it is just a PC or laprop, with some electronic parts linked to PC.

but they forget if a product is well made as LIONSTRACS MS / GROOVE it's like you're working on a closed system.


Maby I am stupid but I see the MS just as a Linux PC with keys.

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#286277 - 04/22/10 02:11 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by FransN:
Maby I am stupid but I see the MS just as a Linux PC with keys.


if so,

why has no one else, made it?

it is not a Linux PC with keys. but a linux music instrument with PC functionality.

This makes the concept easier to understand.

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-22-2010).]

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#286278 - 04/22/10 02:16 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
if so,

why has no one else, made it?

it is not a Linux PC with keys. but a linux music instrument with PC functionality.

This makes the concept easier to understand.

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-22-2010).]


Because it doesn't sell. If I buy a Dell PC or labtop with good master keyboard and load the best VST's and arranger sofwares in it I have the same and cheaper. Or I use my PA500 with the labtop so I have great styles combined with the VST's and so on.

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#286279 - 04/22/10 02:31 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
I'm happy with the sounds I have on my S910....and with most of the arranger KB's I've had in the past few years ...how much more realistic does anyone need and for what? its an KB not the real instrument....I want a unit as easy to play as possible, so open units are not my bag for sure....tweaking and adjusting, etc, etc, gives me a big headache I just want to push buttons and play. In the future all I want is better on-board & on stage navigation..give me more sliders, buttons, touch tilt screens, more inputs, separate playing modes all with easy access while playing and smaller size & lighter weight.....we'll see?

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#286280 - 04/22/10 02:37 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by FransN:
Because it doesn't sell. If I buy a Dell PC or labtop with good master keyboard and load the best VST's and arranger sofwares in it I have the same and cheaper. Or I use my PA500 with the labtop so I have great styles combined with the VST's and so on.


and how are you going to map all the keys or buttons to control the VST's?

and how are you going to connect all of them?

and how will you seamlessly transfer from one to the other, remembering Windows can have only 1 ONE VST host running at a time?

I know the answers to these, but do you?

And there are a few more operational hurdles to to overcome in running a system smoothly, and in a live situation, such as you describe.

It is certainly NOT just a Linux system with keys...Just as the Openlabs systems are NOT just Windows with keys.

Please do not make such judgments on systems you obviously have no knowledge about.

It is no where near as simplistic as your simplistic and facile comments suggest.

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#286281 - 04/22/10 02:43 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by FransN:
Because it doesn't sell. If I buy a Dell PC or labtop with good master keyboard and load the best VST's and arranger sofwares in it I have the same and cheaper. Or I use my PA500 with the labtop so I have great styles combined with the VST's and so on.


This is also what I many years ago have done with Roland VA-76 with AKAI S-6000 sampler and laptop. it works. but MS/GROOVE Can simply more.

If you work with linux you get something closer to MS / GROOVE but you will never reach the same.

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#286282 - 04/22/10 02:49 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Well I see this differently. For the same money or even cheaper you can buy the PA2x Pro or Tyros3. Maby simple but these are the 2 best arrangers at the moment. OK including the Audya What else do you need then? I only have 2 hands.

[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 04-22-2010).]

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#286283 - 04/22/10 02:58 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
and how are you going to map all the keys or buttons to control the VST's?

and how are you going to connect all of them?

and how will you seamlessly transfer from one to the other, remembering Windows can have only 1 ONE VST host running at a time?

I know the answers to these, but do you?

And there are a few more operational hurdles to to overcome in running a system smoothly, and in a live situation, such as you describe.

It is certainly NOT just a Linux system with keys...Just as the Openlabs systems are NOT just Windows with keys.

Please do not make such judgments on systems you obviously have no knowledge about.

It is no where near as simplistic as your simplistic and facile comments suggest.



Hey you don't know what I know. And I know more then that you think I know.

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#286284 - 04/22/10 03:09 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Well then if thats the case, dont say dumb things like "its only Linux with keys"

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#286285 - 04/22/10 03:15 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
Originally posted by FransN:
Maby I am stupid but I see the MS just as a Linux PC with keys.



What to you think is inside your closed arranger ?
All keyboards are powered by a computer with an OS.

The terms Closed Keyboards and Open Keyboards are defined by their ability to be expanded by the manufacture and the end users outside their original factory state.

You buy a Tyros 3 today and it does what it does. Never anything more than that. Hence why it's a closed system.

You buy a Mediastation and it's technically unlimited in what it can do. Henc why it's an open system.

The CPU and OS do not define Closed and Open keyboards.

My OASYS is a Linux PC and I can't install anything I want on it. I can only do whatever KORG intended it to do.

Regards
James

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#286286 - 04/22/10 03:30 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:

What to you think is inside your closed arranger ?
All keyboards are powered by a computer with an OS.

The terms Closed Keyboards and Open Keyboards are defined by their ability to be expanded by the manufacture and the end users outside their original factory state.

You buy a Tyros 3 today and it does what it does. Never anything more than that. Hence why it's a closed system.

You buy a Mediastation and it's technically unlimited in what it can do. Henc why it's an open system.

The CPU and OS do not define Closed and Open keyboards.

My OASYS is a Linux PC and I can't install anything I want on it. I can only do whatever KORG intended it to do.

Regards
James


Yes I know all that. I just need a good arranger and if I want extra sounds I buy a second one or a module or use a VST on my computer. A oasys and you want more? Where is the end. Do we really need all these sounds etc.



[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 04-22-2010).]

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#286287 - 04/22/10 03:35 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
Well then if thats the case, dont say dumb things like "its only Linux with keys"


Well it is.

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#286288 - 04/22/10 03:57 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5352
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Quote:
Originally posted by FransN:
Well it is.


So if I connected a controller keyboard to a computer running Linux, then it would automatically become a Workstation/Arranger that I could play, edit and perform all the functions of a Workstation/Arranger straight away with no work involved, and also be a perfectly acceptable piece of furniture in the lounge.

As you obviously already have experience of this, what controller and Computer do you recommend that would achieve this in a similar time as unpacking an MS and switching it on. I would also be interested in the best way you have found to integrate it into the lounge as a piece of furniture.

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#286289 - 04/22/10 04:03 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by abacus:
So if I connected a controller keyboard to a computer running Linux, then it would automatically become a Workstation/Arranger that I could play, edit and perform all the functions of a Workstation/Arranger straight away with no work involved, and also be a perfectly acceptable piece of furniture in the lounge.

As you obviously already have experience of this, what controller and Computer do you recommend that would achieve this in a similar time as unpacking an MS and switching it on. I would also be interested in the best way you have found to integrate it into the lounge as a piece of furniture.

Bill


Come on you know what I mean. Maby you should explain me a simple person the pros of an MS to a real arranger like the Tyros or PA2xPro.

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#286290 - 04/22/10 04:08 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5352
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Diki
Why do you have problems comprehending the fact that not everybody wants or likes the same as you?

Youre an intelligent person, have great experience, and enjoy entertaining people, so why is the above so difficult to understand.

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#286291 - 04/22/10 04:11 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5352
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Quote:
Originally posted by FransN:
Come on you know what I mean. Maby you should explain me a simple person the pros of an MS to a real arranger like the Tyros or PA2xPro.


Do a search of SZ and you will find plenty of posts about it, however if I get time over the weekend I will put something together for you.

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#286292 - 04/22/10 04:33 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
Originally posted by FransN:
Yes I know all that. I just need a good arranger and if I want extra sounds I buy a second one or a module or use a VST on my computer. A oasys and you want more? Where is the end. Do we really need all these sounds etc.

[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 04-22-2010).]


Sure we do, and it will never end. Technology waits for no man. You either keep up or give up. Progress will all happen regardless.

The Open Keyboard will likely be the savour of the Arranger in the distant future. It's the only thing to come a long since the invention of the Arranger that puts the youth, fun and real world we live in back into the keyboards on a big way.

Your fear of it is the same as Diki and others. If it simply had 200+ styles straight out of the box ready to go you would likely be either the proud owner of one already, or a potential buyer.

Sadly it doesn't come that way so if your not able to tweak styles yourself then there's not a lot you can do other than to sit on the sidelines and wait until KORG or someone else brings an Open Arranger to the market with optimised styles. You can bet they will too but you will have to wait because there is plenty life left in closed arrangers still.

Regards
James

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#286293 - 04/22/10 04:41 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
Sure we do, and it will never end. Technology waits for no man. You either keep up or give up. Progress will all happen regardless.

The Open Keyboard will likely be the savour of the Arranger in the distant future. It's the only thing to come a long since the invention of the Arranger that puts the youth, fun and real world we live in back into the keyboards on a big way.

Your fear of it is the same as Diki and others. If it simply had 200+ styles straight out of the box ready to go you would likely be either the proud owner of one already, or a potential buyer.

Sadly it doesn't come that way so if your not able to tweak styles yourself then there's not a lot you can do other than to sit on the sidelines and wait until KORG or someone else brings an Open Arranger to the market with optimised styles. You can bet they will too but you will have to wait because there is plenty life left in closed arrangers still.

Regards
James


I am not afraid James.
Even if I tweak the styles the MS still haven't the great Korg or Yamaha sounds in it. And I like tweaking. I do it all the time on my Korg PA500 and he sounds much better then I have heard on the MS. I also don't think it is the future. People like simplicity.

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#286294 - 04/22/10 04:54 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by FransN:
I am not afraid James.
Even if I tweak the styles the MS still haven't the great Korg or Yamaha sounds in it. And I like tweaking. I do it all the time on my Korg PA500 and he sounds much better then I have heard on the MS. I also don't think it is the future. People like simplicity.


compare your sounds from Korg with this free software you can install on MS.
http://www.yellowtools.us/cp21/cms/index.php?id=842

or this:
http://www.yellowtools.us/cp21/cms/index.php?id=834

or listen to this free GIGA format piano CD from sonart audio for free download:
http://sonart.cc/shop/product_info.php?cPath=62&products_id=210



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-22-2010).]

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#286295 - 04/22/10 05:15 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
That's not the point. I know that there are better piano sounds. My point is that the MS can't beat the sound of the Korg styles or Yamaha styles. I also have download live styler on my computer and no VST come even close to the real sound of Yamaha. In fact people on VST forums are looking for Tyros sounds. Most of the VST's that carries GM sounds sucks big time. The only one that sounded ok was the old Yamaha VST S-YXG50 but also don't come close to the Yamaha sound of today.

So my question is how could you make the styles on the MS sound as good as on a REAL arranger.

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#286296 - 04/22/10 05:26 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
So my question is how could you make the styles on the MS sound as good as on a REAL arranger.


How good the styles sound is defined by how good the actual sounds are on the keyboard. Be it the content included, or additional sounds you buy afterwards like the ones AFG Music just pointed to.

Quote:
I also have download live styler on my computer and no VST come even close to the real sound of Yamaha.


Live Styler is obviously going to sound like crap when played on your PC because of the smelly GM sounds that come with windows.

However.... connect a quality sound library and it's an entirely different story.

Quote:
So my question is how could you make the styles on the MS sound as good as on a REAL arranger.


Simply do what I did in Video 7 I uplaoded.
When your ready and you want to go beyond a real arranger, simply buy a premium sound library.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 04-22-2010).]

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#286297 - 04/22/10 05:34 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
Simply do what I did in Video 7 I uplaoded.
When your ready and you want to go beyond a real arranger, simply buy a premium sound library.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 04-22-2010).]


I didn't use windows sounds. I use several VST's for Live Styler. Nothing came even close to my Korg.

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#286298 - 04/22/10 05:43 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by FransN:
That's not the point. I know that there are better piano sounds. My point is that the MS can't beat the sound of the Korg styles or Yamaha styles. I also have download live styler on my computer and no VST come even close to the real sound of Yamaha. In fact people on VST forums are looking for Tyros sounds. Most of the VST's that carries GM sounds sucks big time. The only one that sounded ok was the old Yamaha VST S-YXG50 but also don't come close to the Yamaha sound of today.

So my question is how could you make the styles on the MS sound as good as on a REAL arranger.


to start you can on MS create your own MS GM/GS set of sounds that you like from big MS library or free orginal giga sounds like free piano sound provided by sonart audio.

here after you can use this standard GM/GS for editing style or creation of styles.

This is one of the many ways.

but you can also on qranger editor select the track sound you like from giga folder that you like and load it.

but if you learn to make GM / GS set to, MS can using this for playing your midi songs with set also.

There are many possibilities. but just as it always tastes are different. that's a minus point for closed arranger, because you stuck to the sound of the manufacturer.


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-22-2010).]

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#286299 - 04/22/10 05:47 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Not really. The Korg PA800 and Korg PA2x Pro can load samples Import of Korg, Wav, Aiff and Akai files

[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 04-22-2010).]

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#286300 - 04/22/10 05:50 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
Originally posted by FransN:
I didn't use windows sounds. I use several VST's for Live Styler. Nothing came even close to my Korg.


What did you use ?

Regards
James

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#286301 - 04/22/10 05:55 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by FransN:
Not really. The Korg PA800 and Korg PA2x Pro can load samples.


i know but not every sound.

and you nee much time for loading the sounds from ram, and the ram is limited.

but on MS you turn MS on after 45-60 seconds the O.S and your sounds are there(giga sound-dreamchipsounds-10 VSThosts- MS synth-user sounds-combisounds-styles-songs...................)

when on MS / GROOVE you create your user sound set or your own GM / GS sound set is like they are rom chip sounds, they are always there.



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-22-2010).]

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#286302 - 04/22/10 05:55 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
Originally posted by FransN:
Not really. The Korg PA800 and Korg PA2x Pro can load samples Import of Korg, Wav, Aiff and Akai files

[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 04-22-2010).]


True, but everything must be loaded to RAM and you only have 128MB on the PA800 and 256MB on the PA2X.

Loading times are upwards of 9 minutes on the Pa2X for 256MB of data where the Medaistation would take less than 1 second to load the same amount of data.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 04-22-2010).]

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#286303 - 04/22/10 06:04 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
What did you use ?

Regards
James


I used the Yamaha S-YXG50, Edirol Hyper Canvas, Prodipe VE and Coyote ForteDXi I used with OMB. All GM and GM2 compatible and the old Yamaha sounded the best. But you know I am a big Korg fan and I bought my PA500 for only 900 Euro. The MS cost 2900 Euro excl tax. You can't beat the Korg there. Just as the Ketron Audya I find the MS way overpriced.

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#286304 - 04/22/10 06:06 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
True, but everything must be loaded to RAM and you only have 128MB on the PA800 and 256MB on the PA2X.

Loading times are upwards of 9 minutes on the Pa2X for 256MB of data where the Medaistation would take less than 1 second to load the same amount of data.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 04-22-2010).]


Yes but the next generation will be there soon of Korg and who know what they will come with. I prefer waiting for Korg.

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#286305 - 04/22/10 06:28 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
The folks that are tooting the mid range priced closed keyboards are a mute point...You Korg PA500, Yamaha PSR s910 users...don't even feel the need to use their respective top of the line models....for what ever reason..though they are considerably better than the lower line...

How can we expect you guys to be aware of superior capabilities or expect you to apply any effort that a open system keyboard requires...

Stay with your easy way out boards....and those that know better will continue to enjoy the superior open keyboards..
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#286306 - 04/22/10 06:33 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi FransN

Quote:
I used the Yamaha S-YXG50, Edirol Hyper Canvas, Prodipe VE and Coyote ForteDXi I used with OMB.


Ouch... those two plug-ins are rather old. I'll say no more....!!!

Quote:
But you know I am a big Korg fan and I bought my PA500 for only 900 Euro. The MS cost 2900 Euro excl tax. You can't beat the Korg there.


Won't disagree with you there.
In my opinion as far as closed arrangers go KORG are in a league of their own.

Quote:
Yes but the next generation will be there soon of Korg and who know what they will come with. I prefer waiting for Korg.


Sure, nobody is telling you that you should go buy a Mediastation. There is no such thing as a universally better keyboard for everyone regardless of how good it is. If you like KORG's, well then that's all that matters.

Just make sure you never stick your head in the sand and always been up on the latest gear and what it has to offer. It's important everyone understands the differences between Open and Closed keyboards.

The Closed keyboard is by no means obsolete so don't worry. All I hope to accomplish here is to give people the information to understand what an open keyboard is and what it has to offer. IF that's then something that interests them.....good. If not.... good. But at least they will understand either way.

Both Open and Closed options are good for us all.

Kind Regards
James


[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 04-22-2010).]

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#286307 - 04/22/10 06:38 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
The folks that are tooting the mid range priced closed keyboards are a mute point...You Korg PA500, Yamaha PSR s910 users...don't even feel the need to use their respective top of the line models....for what ever reason..though they are considerably better than the lower line...

How can we expect you guys to be aware of superior capabilities or expect you to apply any effort that a open system keyboard requires...

Stay with your easy way out boards....and those that know better will continue to enjoy the superior open keyboards..


Yeh rich people. Not everybody can afford these keyboards. And I don't think the MS is superior to the Yamaha PSR S910 and Korg PA500. Have you ever listened to these 2 REAL arrangers.

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#286308 - 04/22/10 06:41 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:


The folks that are tooting the mid range priced closed keyboards are a mute point...You Korg PA500, Yamaha PSR s910 users...don't even feel the need to use their respective top of the line models....
Stay with your easy way out boards....and those that know better will continue to enjoy the superior open keyboards..


Hey Fran...why not toot....er...play (record) something on the Mediastation using style mode (no SMF, please) and enlighten us poor souls stuck with an MOTL closed arranger.

Just something basic and simple, but a tune that can showcase the superiorness of the open system Mediastation...send it to me privately, if you don't want to risk posting it here.

I haven't heard you play using style mode in some time...maybe even some of that two-handed technique using full keyboard style mode that you say you have down so well.

I'm curious to see how great the MS handles styles...and you've had it long enough to know it quite sufficiently....you should be even more proficient on it than James.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#286309 - 04/22/10 06:42 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by FransN:
Yeh rich people. Not everybody can afford these keyboards. And I don't think the MS is superior to the Yamaha PSR S910 and Korg PA500. Have you ever listened to these 2 REAL arrangers.


Yes..most recently at a "yard sale"


Just kidding you a bit..
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#286310 - 04/22/10 06:44 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Hey Fran...why not toot....er...play (record) something on the Mediastation using style mode (no SMF, please) and enlighten us poor souls stuck with an MOTL closed arranger.

Just something basic and simple, but a tune that can showcase the superiorness of the open system Mediastation...send it to me privately, if you don't want to risk posting it here.

I haven't heard you play using style mode in some time...maybe even some of that two-handed technique using full keyboard style mode that you say you have down so well.

I'm curious to see how great the MS handles styles...and you've had it long enough to know it quite sufficiently....you should be even more proficient on it than James.

Ian



Ian, why would I want to do that...when I have my easy to use Prelude to play...
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#286311 - 04/22/10 06:54 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
http://nocache.homestead.com/FranCarango/discography.html

Ian , seriously here is a quick recording of the MS..."Bequine" on my website..
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#286312 - 04/22/10 06:56 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
Ian, why would I want to do that...when I have my easy to use Prelude to play...


I don't know, my friend...I just thought you'd like to show off the TOTL Mediastation's superiority to the mid-range S910 or PA-500.

I'll never get a chance to hear how much better it is, other than for you to demonstrate it for me (and the others anxious to hear it)...I certainly won't ever see one in my neck of the woods.

Just a nice simple tune in arranger style mode...simple but effective, and showing clearly just how great the Mediastation is at playing styles....you don't even have to play complex chords.

It would sure give the instrument some much needed credibility, and certainly back up your claims.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#286313 - 04/22/10 06:58 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
http://nocache.homestead.com/FranCarango/discography.html

Ian , seriously here is a quick recording of the MS..."Bequine" on my website..


Awful especially the trumpet sound.

Just kidding you a bit..

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#286314 - 04/22/10 07:43 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
http://nocache.homestead.com/FranCarango/discography.html

Ian , seriously here is a quick recording of the MS..."Bequine" on my website..


Thanks Fran...I'll download it and listen to it a few times before I make any comments.

What do you think of it yourself?

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#286315 - 04/22/10 08:12 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Wasn't that a Yamaha beguine style?

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#286316 - 04/22/10 09:37 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14203
Loc: NW Florida
Sorry, but if that is the 'future', I'll stick to the past

Unconvincing drums, unconvincing organ, stiff style, c'mon... you aren't expecting anyone to take this seriously, are you? No wonder you gig with your Prelude..!

Look, I'm not going to keep repeating this... I was using VSTi's and computers while most of you bounced on your momma's knees (at least musically!). I am not the LEAST bit 'afraid' of VSTi's and computers. Use them every single week. Probably, truth be told, a LOT more than some of you so-called 'open' enthusiasts. Thing is, this experience is what makes my opinion that open ARRANGERS (there's a huge difference between a few good sounds, and a completely integrated instrument, with styles and sounds working together as one gestalt) aren't yet worth the bother is kind of frightening to YO)U, isn't it? I mean, c'mon guys! How much more of this terrible stuff we got to listen to from people that have somehow convinced themselves that THIS is acceptable...?

It isn't, not in my book. When as James points out "The Open Keyboard will likely be the savior of the Arranger in the distant future" that's all well and good. But we are talking about NOW. As in 'TODAY'... When it finally IS the savior of the arranger industry, let's revisit it. But this isn't where it stands now. Trust me, were an open arranger possible to put together without a gargantuan amount of work, I'd already have one. I've certainly got well over ten years of experience with VSTi's and computer systems to ease the job. But making a WHOLE soundset out of piecemeal components, and tweaking styles from a myriad of different sources (programmed for a myriad of different soundsets) is simply a task beyond most of us.

Look at conversions... they RARELY ever sound as good as the original style. Despite often being played on better arrangers than the original. Want to know WHY? Because, as any decent player will tell you, the sound IS the performance. You play each different sound differently. No two Rhodes' sound and respond identically. A good player adjusts his playing to the sound. A MIDI file that sounds great on one piano sample set often sounds just plain WRONG on another. Drums that make the most of the dynamics and sample switch points of one drumkit don't work on another where the dynamic curve and sample crossover points are different. The sound IS the performance...

This is why translations rarely sound even as good, let alone better than the original. And that's with a fully integrated, closed arranger soundset to work with. Now complicate things even further by having a VSTi soundset that is pieced together from a myriad sources AS WELL... You start to see what I'm getting at? There's a reason most of the MS style translations sound like poo... Because ALL translations sound like poo. Problem is, on the MS, that's all you've GOT. The ROM styles and sounds are amateurish at best, so translations is your only game.

Until Lionstracs simply do what is necessary, and actually hire some SERIOUSLY skilled style programmers and provide them, with a preset set of sounds to work on that are at the top of their game, not freeware and shareware amateur efforts, they are going to compare poorly to closed arrangers, period. As has been pointed out, Yamaha, Ketron, Korg etc. spend a FORTUNE getting these made. And THAT is why they sound so good. But sorry guys. I haven't heard ONE single home made style from anyone on this forum EVER that blew me away. NOT ONE. And those were made for already well integrated soundsets.

As I have always said, were this forum a hotbed of great style creators, talented soundset creators, I honestly think the open arranger would have a future. But when the few that actually DO have the balls to post any music they've done on the MS miss the mark so widely and the rest just talk, talk, talk (basically proving that they HAVEN'T made anything that honestly makes a closed arranger look silly), what is one to expect..?

I'm sorry, but my 'fear' of the open arranger (if you want to call my skepticism that) doesn't come from LESS knowledge than you protagonists. It comes from MORE knowledge, I regret...

After watching five YEARS of MS fanboys fail to come up with a serious challenge to a good closed arranger, I am seriously worried about THEIR mental health. Surely denying all the facts for such a long time can't be any good for anyone's psyche... The Emperor STILL hasn't got any clothes, has never HAD any clothes, and no-one in their right minds is going to walk around naked (musically, at least!) while the future takes its' own sweet time getting here.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#286317 - 04/23/10 04:12 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
This thread, combined with DNJ's 'Is this a good time to buy an Audya' thread, would make a fascinating play. You couldn't dream up a better cast of characters. But since few of us are actors, who would play us? Of course, I would be played by Denzel Washington (that's a no-brainer ), but who would play Diki, who would play Fran, Donny, Ian, Nedim, Tony, Gary, Bebop, Nigel, DonM, Semi-live, Leezone, Rikki, Russ, Rory, TonyMads, SqueakD, ScottYee, Eddie, Randy, James, et al? TWD, of course, would play himself, as no one could match the 'original' .

Want to try your hand as a casting director? Pick a SZ member and nominate a well-known actor to play them in the new blockbuster remake of War and (rarely) Peace. And no, ol' Yellow can not be nominated to play an MS owner afraid to post (music). Also, Andy Rooney is not an actor and is also disqualified as a nominee.

chas

[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 04-23-2010).]
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#286318 - 04/23/10 07:09 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
Wasn't that a Yamaha beguine style?


Yes it was. Do you see what I mean. Doesn't come even close to how the style really must sound.

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#286319 - 04/23/10 07:41 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi Diki.

Quote:
When as James points out "The Open Keyboard will likely be the savior of the Arranger in the distant future" that's all well and good. But we are talking about NOW. As in 'TODAY'...


What I meant by that is that right now the arranger market is all but a shadow of it's former self. It only exists now as a fraction of what it used to be and nothing in comparison compared to the ever growing Workstation market because it's got old.

It's gotten old and the uptake from kids is nowhere near what it was as the sound and styles arrangers have don't reflect any of the mainstream modern music. For it to be restored to all it's glory the lines that define a workstation and an arranger need to be greatly blurred in addition to the merger of existing technology.

So that's the present and future I was talking about. Your more than welcome to stay in your bubble, but just make sure you stick your head above the sand from time to time in order not to fall behind. The OPEN keyboard is the sudden change in events that can turn an old idea into a new idea that's a million times more flexible and appealing to everyone. It can be whatever you want it to be even if your 18 years old or 60 years old.

All your seeing now is just the start of what's to come and it will roll out very quickly n the next few years.

Look at the iPad. It's only out a wet day and iPad DJ's are popping up all over the place now with programs like iElectribe and so on.

Quote:
Until Lionstracs simply do what is necessary, .......


It's getting boring now Diki with you repeating yourself so much.






[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 04-23-2010).]

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#286320 - 04/23/10 08:05 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Sorry, but if that is the 'future', I'll stick to the past

Unconvincing drums, unconvincing organ, stiff style, c'mon... you aren't expecting anyone to take this seriously, are you? No wonder you gig with your Prelude..!



I have to agree...the Mediastation's interpretation of an otherwise excellent style on a T3/S910 is bland, lifeless and, unfortunately, indicative of the instrument's role as an arranger.




No, I'm afraid we are not.


Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-23-2010).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#286321 - 04/23/10 08:20 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi Ian

Quote:
I have to agree...the Mediastation's interpretation of an otherwise excellent style on a T3/S910 is bland, lifeless and, unfortunately, indicative of the instrument's role as an arranger.


Your thinking very one dimensional here and typical of a user still thinking in terms of closed keyboard. How his style sounded entirely depended on what sound engine he used.

Regards
James

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#286322 - 04/23/10 08:28 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
Hi Ian

Your thinking very one dimensional here and typical of a user still thinking in terms of closed keyboard. How his style sounded entirely depended on what sound engine he used.

Regards
James


Not really...I'm only commenting on the Mediastation's use as an arranger in style play...which is what I asked Fran to show/demonstrate.

I got my answer.

Having that type of demo on a web site isn't doing the Mediastation any favors.

Perhaps it's time we heard some demos that showcased the instrument's alleged greatness in style play?

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#286323 - 04/23/10 08:33 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Let's face it Ian ...Yamaha Tyros/S910 have arranger styles in the bag...until I hear anything better... that's MY opinion and I'm sticking to it " for now ". But I welcome the competition always.

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#286324 - 04/23/10 08:43 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
I think that the MS must use his own styles not that from other brands because they will never sound as good as on the original brand arranger.

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#286325 - 04/23/10 09:06 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Not really...I'm only commenting on the Mediastation's use as an arranger in style play...which is what I asked Fran to show/demonstrate.

I got my answer.

Having that type of demo on a web site isn't doing the Mediastation any favors.

Perhaps it's time we heard some demos that showcased the instrument's alleged greatness in style play?

Ian



Some history....

This was recorded with the "old" live styler, using the default Yamaha Vst (under 2 meg)....and all was default levels with no tweaks...

As for having it on the web...It was posted using my website as a convenient way of hosting the file...

You guys need to get a life...
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#286326 - 04/23/10 09:20 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:

Some history....

This was recorded with the "old" live styler, using the default Yamaha Vst (under 2 meg)....and all was default levels with no tweaks...

As for having it on the web...It was posted using my website as a convenient way of hosting the file...

You guys need to get a life...



Perhaps you need to update your site.

Actually, the demo you put up was the equal of anything else we have heard on the Mediastation...seems like they need to get the people who are endorsing this product to get a move on and start showcasing/authenticating this top range arranger's alleged "instrument of the future" claim.

Are we there yet?

No kids, 'fraid not.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#286327 - 04/23/10 10:14 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
I understand now where the saying "Ignorance is bliss" comes from.

Sad, very sad.

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 04-23-2010).]

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#286328 - 04/23/10 10:31 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
thats not fair James. The argument would be settled if there was just one Mediastation demo that sounded equal to a closed system arranger. Just one ...... Everyone wants to hear it including diki (especially Diki) and me and others. The absence of just one MS arranger style demo that even simply equalled a similar style on a closed arranger instrument would end the argument. The MS is capabable of it. We ALL know this but why is there no evidence that it HAS been done ? And i have no axe to grind against the MS. The real sad truth is that 6 maybe 7 years on we are still talking about the MS's alledged superiority and debating it until someone posts up a style done on the MS and then we are all left scratching our heads wondering

' is that it ??? you gotta be kidding me right ?'

I want to be a believer and i am easily converted just show me a style better than the original. Is that too much to ask ?

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#286329 - 04/23/10 11:33 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi spalding.

Quote:
thats not fair James. The argument would be settled if there was just one Mediastation demo that sounded equal to a closed system arranger.


You mean Live Styler just running as an Arranger?

Quote:
Just one ...... Everyone wants to hear it including diki (especially Diki) and me and others. The absence of just one MS arranger style demo that even simply equalled a similar style on a closed arranger instrument would end the argument. The MS is capabable of it. We ALL know this but why is there no evidence that it HAS been done ? And i have no axe to grind against the MS. The real sad truth is that 6 maybe 7 years on we are still talking about the MS's alledged superiority and debating it until someone posts up a style done on the MS and then we are all left scratching our heads wondering


OK but you have to understand this, I don't work for Lionstracs but yet with my video's alone I have shown you more than anyone else has done before in a manner that's suitable to present to you. Meaning proper audio that you can hear and comment on.

I have my own agenda which is to get the keyboard ready for gigging. If you want to hear it playing back sequences I've done, I can upload plenty of that. I've already put two up.

If you want to hear it running though all different styles, then your pulling me in an direction that what I won't be using the keyboard for, and again I don't work for Lionstracs so it's not my job to do it either and constantly try convince people this is the future of keyboard. If I did we wouldn't even be having this discussion because I'd just do all the work for everyone at the factory. Weather it should be done or doesn't have to come with styles pre-setup is not that important to me, it's a simple matter of it just helps if it did so for the amount of effort it takes and arguments it would end.

If I could even do the works as a third party developer I would, but I'm not sure how I can charge for my time when working on styles from other keyboards. There maybe some legal issues there I'm unaware of that only matter when an exchange of money takes place.

Regards
James

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#286330 - 04/23/10 12:07 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
I understand now where the saying "Ignorance is bliss" comes from.

Sad, very sad.

]


Yes, and now, so do I...hopefully those associated with the Mediastation rise above it and post a decent demo using the instrument's arranger in style mode.

What's been heard so far is hardly inspiring.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#286331 - 04/23/10 12:24 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
no james thats not playing fair. Noone said that the liontracks cant play back a sequence. Every keyboard can do that. I dont care if after a few hours you can route the various sounds from any provider into your sequenced tracks. I want to know what happens when you change those sounds using different providers live in arranger play because thats what we would be using the instrument for and i cant take hours to do that in a live performance or minutes.

It is of limited benefit to demo the strengths of the mediastion as a workstation to a community of arranger players and i dont mean that disrespectfully. Noone as far as i know has challenged the mediastation on its credibility as a workstation although i know from your posts that you have experienced frustrations with the instruments re3liability even for your own intended use as a workstation/VST playback system.

You have come this far with your demos for Dom without renumeration. wouldnt shutting Diki up with a kick ass arranger demo proving the superiority of the MS as an arranger be payment enough ?

The thing is if you wont do it then the MS as an arranger is doomed because over the last 6-7 years the challenge has gone out and the answer from Dom the developer and manufacturer and the other MS owners has been honestly disappointing to say the least. its clear he niether has the technical ability notwithsatnding all his constant techno babble boasts nor the resources to hire someone to do it. You are the best opportunity to settle this 7 year debate and if you genuinley believe the MS can do all that it boasts it can in the arranger department then my personal opinion is that you should . You have the PA1X and its at least 6 years old now. How hard can it be to best this ancient keybaord ?

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#286332 - 04/23/10 12:57 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
no james thats not playing fair. Noone said that the liontracks cant play back a sequence. Every keyboard can do that. I dont care if after a few hours you can route the various sounds from any provider into your sequenced tracks. I want to know what happens when you change those sounds using different providers live in arranger play because thats what we would be using the instrument for and i cant take hours to do that in a live performance or minutes.

You are the best opportunity to settle this 7 year debate and if you genuinley believe the MS can do all that it boasts it can in the arranger department then my personal opinion is that you should .



Wow! Has it been seven years already?

I would also like to add, that it would be great to see (hear) what happens when you switch from one style to another while playing.

Also, can the tempo be held, or does it switch to the default tempo of the newly chosen style?

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#286333 - 04/23/10 01:11 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Won't you people get it through that dense matter you call your brains, that the MS is NOT an arranger.

It was never an arranger, so ergo it does not NEED many of the little tricks that the designed arrangers have.

There are plenty of Yamaha "Wally-Boxes" out there for anyone who just needs "two fingers and an organ to have a ball"

One thing I will say is that an arranger forum is NOT the place for Media Station operational and technical discussions to be.

It is why I suggested in another post that these be posted and kept to the Media Station forum.

At least that would weed out these sort of discussions, by people who like to see their opinions in front of everyone. God forbid they post an opinion in another forum that NO-ONE will read!!! Poor diddums...

But people KEEP posting in the General Arranger forum. MS users amongst them.

I repeat it is NOT an arranger. Its main role is as a VST/Giga workstation and media organiser/player. A role at which, NOTHING else comes even close....

And trying to find esoteric things like can it hold a tempo when changing a style???

Please, how ridiculous is that...And yes the Yamaha can obviously do it hence the post by nitpicking Ian, but who cares!!!

D

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#286334 - 04/23/10 01:27 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by miden:

And trying to find esoteric things like can it hold a tempo when changing a style???

Please, how ridiculous is that...


Nothing "esoteric" about wanting the tempo to remain as is when changing to a new style. Very common actually, except to those who haven't progressed that far with their instrument...and, I'm pretty sure Roland and Korg, and perhaps Casio can do it as well.

What would be ridiculous, is a person buying the Mediastation, expecting it to do at least the very basic functions of an arranger, and then finding out it does not.

Just because these features are of no use to you, doesn't mean they are unnecessary to others, and since the Mediastation is a bit of a Yeti, the only way to expose these things, is by asking questions...and don't worry, I won't ask you anything.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#286335 - 04/23/10 01:31 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Dennis it makes sense to have a dedicated MS forum to chat with other owners, as here is definitly not the place because hardly anyone has a MS to swap ideas with.
So instead all we can do is compare what we hear and listen to to what we already have which is arrangers, Yamaha, Korg, Roland, etc. I hope this time around it works out for you and your music. As time goes on I think with more improvements in technology the MS will be a force to be reckoned with for sure.

good luck

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#286336 - 04/23/10 01:53 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi spalding

Quote:
no james thats not playing fair. Noone said that the liontracks cant play back a sequence.


They did, and the comments even went as far as saying that why has nobody in X amount of year ever been able to upload any thing worth a damn.

I think with the work I've done on the keyboard many people have seen a lot of what they wanted to see and because of that it seems now that the focus has shifted from the questionably abilities of the entire keyboard down to one single function now.

The Arranger.!!!

You got to admit that's some achievement considering how wild these sort of conversations were

Quote:
I dont care if after a few hours you can route the various sounds from any provider into your sequenced tracks. I want to know what happens when you change those sounds using different providers live in arranger play because thats what we would be using the instrument for and i cant take hours to do that in a live performance or minutes.


I would have covered this though. The styles are recalled instantly. The only thing you can't do is go from one style to the next while Live Arranger is running. It will stop when you select the next style but you can instantly start playing again.

If your going to use something like Bandstand as your vsti, then obviously your going to have to wait for that to load it's sounds before you can start playing again.

This is why I have been saying that to get the most out of the keyboard and to keep everything seamless and super fast it's best that when you buy a premium library you want to use with the keyboard, dump it in exchange for the sound in the GM bank. All this data is preloaded to memory when the keyboard boots so there is zero load times when selecting sounds.

The GM bank is great, but adding your premium content to it is certainly the way to go and blow far pass closed arrangers. Right now as an arranger it's just going to sound like a Tyros 2 with a few enhancments.

Nothing wrong with that either though. The T2 is a good bread and butter machine.

Quote:
It is of limited benefit to demo the strengths of the mediastion as a workstation to a community of arranger players and i dont mean that disrespectfully. Noone as far as i know has challenged the mediastation on its credibility as a workstation although i know from your posts that you have experienced frustrations with the instruments re3liability even for your own intended use as a workstation/VST playback system.


I'm sorry that you don't feel like you are getting to see the key functions that are of direct interest to you, but please understand that I'm not just farting around with the keyboard here in my Studio. I am getting it ready to bring on the road with me as my only keyboard when gigging. Sequencing up my backing tracks takes up all my free time lately.

I should also point out that the video's are being posted on Workstation forums. So while you might not be seeing what you personally want, the vast majority of people are.

Don't forget either, an arranger is nothing without sounds so everything you have seen so far should be of great importance to you.

Quote:
You have come this far with your demos for Dom without renumeration. wouldnt shutting Diki up with a kick ass arranger demo proving the superiority of the MS as an arranger be payment enough ?


lol.... is that even possible. Diki is certainly whistling a different tune now and everyone's focus is on the one remaining feature that hasn't been demoed to a level that exceeds closed keyboards.

It's bloody tempting for sure but seriously though, I've only got the demo version of Live Arranger and to spend 170 euro on something I'm not likely to get much use out of is a bit much. Not to mention the time it takes.

Quote:
The thing is if you wont do it then the MS as an arranger is doomed because over the last 6-7 years the challenge has gone out and the answer from Dom the developer and manufacturer and the other MS owners has been honestly disappointing to say the least. its clear he niether has the technical ability notwithsatnding all his constant techno babble boasts nor the resources to hire someone to do it. You are the best opportunity to settle this 7 year debate and if you genuinley believe the MS can do all that it boasts it can in the arranger department then my personal opinion is that you should . You have the PA1X and its at least 6 years old now. How hard can it be to best this ancient keybaord ?


Man... talk about putting me under pressure.
I'm not pulling the plug on my efforts and I will see what I can do, but again I don't know how far I'm going to get with a demo version of Live Arranger. All my free time has been spent on sequencing songs for my own use too with a few video's squeezed in here and there. So that's why there's not more video's online right now too.

I'm all for doing what I can but ultimately I'm just an end user. It's not my responsibility to be doing all this.

Regards
James

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#286337 - 04/23/10 02:08 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
and don't worry, I won't ask you anything. Ian



I won't, as I would not have answered.
Simply because of the malicious intent inherent in most of your questions about anything.

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#286338 - 04/23/10 02:18 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
James, when I get my MS back, I will do some work on setting up a style using GIGA souns/VST's.

Also you should not really use the term GM bank , as that just makes unenlightened folk assume " dodgy GM sounds"

They do not realise on the MS the user can CREATE their own GM bank.
All it does is use the GM numbering system..0-127 not the dodgy GM sounds!!

The first ten patch slots can be 10 guitars if you want, followed by 20 basses, and all of these can be a VST OR giga patch.

Then you assign your patches to either the style or the sequence by editing and saving...

If a user wants they can follow the GM patch numbering and naming order in having pianos, EP's, chormatic percusion, organs, guitars, basses etc, which I guess then gives the advantage of ANY GM midi file working on the MS OOTB.
But with killer giga an vst sounds instead.

Anyhoo, I will attempt to get something in a style demo done. Hopefully taking some of the pressure off you

Dennis

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#286339 - 04/23/10 02:20 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
I won't, as I would not have answered.
Simply because of the malicious intent inherent in most of your questions about anything.


Certainly no maliciousness intended in my posts, just curiosity like the others who want to know what the Mediastation can or cannot do as an arranger...this is a "General Arranger Keyboard Forum" is it not?

One thing I have noticed, is an extreme amount of defensiveness and anger in your posts.

So, I'd say you're the one with the problems...

Ian

BTW, the Lointracs forum makes very interesting reading.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#286340 - 04/23/10 03:07 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
fair enough James. Good luck with your MS as a live gigging tool.Do you think you will ever feel that it has made your Oasys redundant ?

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#286341 - 04/23/10 03:37 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
Do you think you will ever feel that it has made your Oasys redundant ?


Having owned an Oasys, Mediastation, and Wersi I can say first hand the Mediastation does not make the Oasys redundant. The Oasys is a fantastic synthesizer but mediocre workstation. Korg never finished making a great sequencer/recorder for the Oasys so it never quite achieved TOTL workstation status for me. The Oasys sounds, keybed, and real time controls all add to making the synth features top notch though. Sadly Oasys sales were miniscule compared to other Korg products and Korg discontinued the Oasys. I doubt further software will be developed for the Oasys other than sound banks which means it will still never have a proper sequencer/recorder.

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