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#286274 - 04/22/10 01:34 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:

I mean, who in their right mind WOULDN'T want an open arranger if it started out with as good a selection of styles and sounds that comes in a TOTL closed one?



Obviously not you and most of the other folks here on the arranger forum. Wersi has been making open ended arrangers for 10 years and there are all but a handful of users on this group who own them. For those like me who do own open system keyboards I can attest that the factory sounds easily rival all but a few sounds your closed system keyboard has. In that event all I do is toss in a few Giga samples or AKAI samples and there isn't a closed end arranger or workstation that can compete with those sounds.

Contrary to what you and others believe, the factory sounds and styles are fine OOTB. The difference is if you don't like a factory sound you can load a Giga file, AKAI sound, or other third party VST program to make it even better. If you need more styles simply use the stlye editor to create your own or import Yamaha, Roland, Ketron, Technics, or Korg files.



[This message has been edited by Ensnareyou (edited 04-22-2010).]

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#286275 - 04/22/10 01:59 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Diki Online   content


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14207
Loc: NW Florida
Contrary to what YOU believe.... Sorry, old chum, but you can't speak for me about what I consider 'acceptable' in factory sounds and styles. I've heard nearly everything there IS with the factory styles on the MS, and they aren't even CLOSE. Maybe close enough for you (but I doubt it, or you wouldn't be so adamant about making your own... mind you, curious I've never heard these, isn't it?), but certainly not close enough for me.

I'll put my G70 ROM styles untweaked up against most of THEM.

And, when you want to talk about the Wersi, for starters, let's pretend that the Abacus's aren't firstly, dead in the water, and secondly, about double the price of any other arranger, and thirdly, WAY too 'home organist' in approach with the factory styles and sounds. Which, BTW are the 'Factory' sounds, not third party VSTi ones. It's not like your Abacus came with NO decent styles or sounds, but at an exorbitant price. And there STILL isn't an extensive soundset and style set based around top quality VSTi's, which is kind of the whole POINT of an open arranger, isn't it? The BEST sounds, with the BEST styles...

Isn't that the Holy Grail...? Or is making your own second rate styles more satisfying than using someone else's first rate ones? I'm not being harsh, here. If I had heard anything consistently amazing out of ANY of the open arrangers, despite being out of my price range, I would be the FIRST to say what an amazing product they are. But when I hear demo after demo after demo of mediocrity at best, and sometimes outright cringeworthy excrement at worse, it's hard for me to accept the rhetoric.

As I said, when someone makes an open arranger that STARTS out as good sounding as a closed TOTL one, and MAKES IT AFFORDABLE (remember that part? ) and adds in all the good stuff from open arrangers, the world will start buying them. But in the meantime, you can talk all you want. Until I hear a clear, unequivocable improvement in the sound of open arrangers over closed ones, their disadvantages FAR outweigh their advantages.

Only HEARING lots of top notch musical examples is going to change my mind in the least. You can post till you are blue in the face, but I need to HEAR it, not read it. And I've heard pretty much everything already done. So you had better point me to something a LOT better...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#286276 - 04/22/10 02:04 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:


people have the wrong idea about open systems. they think it is just a PC or laprop, with some electronic parts linked to PC.

but they forget if a product is well made as LIONSTRACS MS / GROOVE it's like you're working on a closed system.


Maby I am stupid but I see the MS just as a Linux PC with keys.

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#286277 - 04/22/10 02:11 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by FransN:
Maby I am stupid but I see the MS just as a Linux PC with keys.


if so,

why has no one else, made it?

it is not a Linux PC with keys. but a linux music instrument with PC functionality.

This makes the concept easier to understand.

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-22-2010).]

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#286278 - 04/22/10 02:16 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
if so,

why has no one else, made it?

it is not a Linux PC with keys. but a linux music instrument with PC functionality.

This makes the concept easier to understand.

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-22-2010).]


Because it doesn't sell. If I buy a Dell PC or labtop with good master keyboard and load the best VST's and arranger sofwares in it I have the same and cheaper. Or I use my PA500 with the labtop so I have great styles combined with the VST's and so on.

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#286279 - 04/22/10 02:31 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
I'm happy with the sounds I have on my S910....and with most of the arranger KB's I've had in the past few years ...how much more realistic does anyone need and for what? its an KB not the real instrument....I want a unit as easy to play as possible, so open units are not my bag for sure....tweaking and adjusting, etc, etc, gives me a big headache I just want to push buttons and play. In the future all I want is better on-board & on stage navigation..give me more sliders, buttons, touch tilt screens, more inputs, separate playing modes all with easy access while playing and smaller size & lighter weight.....we'll see?

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#286280 - 04/22/10 02:37 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by FransN:
Because it doesn't sell. If I buy a Dell PC or labtop with good master keyboard and load the best VST's and arranger sofwares in it I have the same and cheaper. Or I use my PA500 with the labtop so I have great styles combined with the VST's and so on.


and how are you going to map all the keys or buttons to control the VST's?

and how are you going to connect all of them?

and how will you seamlessly transfer from one to the other, remembering Windows can have only 1 ONE VST host running at a time?

I know the answers to these, but do you?

And there are a few more operational hurdles to to overcome in running a system smoothly, and in a live situation, such as you describe.

It is certainly NOT just a Linux system with keys...Just as the Openlabs systems are NOT just Windows with keys.

Please do not make such judgments on systems you obviously have no knowledge about.

It is no where near as simplistic as your simplistic and facile comments suggest.

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#286281 - 04/22/10 02:43 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by FransN:
Because it doesn't sell. If I buy a Dell PC or labtop with good master keyboard and load the best VST's and arranger sofwares in it I have the same and cheaper. Or I use my PA500 with the labtop so I have great styles combined with the VST's and so on.


This is also what I many years ago have done with Roland VA-76 with AKAI S-6000 sampler and laptop. it works. but MS/GROOVE Can simply more.

If you work with linux you get something closer to MS / GROOVE but you will never reach the same.

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#286282 - 04/22/10 02:49 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Well I see this differently. For the same money or even cheaper you can buy the PA2x Pro or Tyros3. Maby simple but these are the 2 best arrangers at the moment. OK including the Audya What else do you need then? I only have 2 hands.

[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 04-22-2010).]

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#286283 - 04/22/10 02:58 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
and how are you going to map all the keys or buttons to control the VST's?

and how are you going to connect all of them?

and how will you seamlessly transfer from one to the other, remembering Windows can have only 1 ONE VST host running at a time?

I know the answers to these, but do you?

And there are a few more operational hurdles to to overcome in running a system smoothly, and in a live situation, such as you describe.

It is certainly NOT just a Linux system with keys...Just as the Openlabs systems are NOT just Windows with keys.

Please do not make such judgments on systems you obviously have no knowledge about.

It is no where near as simplistic as your simplistic and facile comments suggest.



Hey you don't know what I know. And I know more then that you think I know.

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