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#286314 - 04/22/10 07:43 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
http://nocache.homestead.com/FranCarango/discography.html

Ian , seriously here is a quick recording of the MS..."Bequine" on my website..


Thanks Fran...I'll download it and listen to it a few times before I make any comments.

What do you think of it yourself?

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#286315 - 04/22/10 08:12 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Wasn't that a Yamaha beguine style?

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#286316 - 04/22/10 09:37 PM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14207
Loc: NW Florida
Sorry, but if that is the 'future', I'll stick to the past

Unconvincing drums, unconvincing organ, stiff style, c'mon... you aren't expecting anyone to take this seriously, are you? No wonder you gig with your Prelude..!

Look, I'm not going to keep repeating this... I was using VSTi's and computers while most of you bounced on your momma's knees (at least musically!). I am not the LEAST bit 'afraid' of VSTi's and computers. Use them every single week. Probably, truth be told, a LOT more than some of you so-called 'open' enthusiasts. Thing is, this experience is what makes my opinion that open ARRANGERS (there's a huge difference between a few good sounds, and a completely integrated instrument, with styles and sounds working together as one gestalt) aren't yet worth the bother is kind of frightening to YO)U, isn't it? I mean, c'mon guys! How much more of this terrible stuff we got to listen to from people that have somehow convinced themselves that THIS is acceptable...?

It isn't, not in my book. When as James points out "The Open Keyboard will likely be the savior of the Arranger in the distant future" that's all well and good. But we are talking about NOW. As in 'TODAY'... When it finally IS the savior of the arranger industry, let's revisit it. But this isn't where it stands now. Trust me, were an open arranger possible to put together without a gargantuan amount of work, I'd already have one. I've certainly got well over ten years of experience with VSTi's and computer systems to ease the job. But making a WHOLE soundset out of piecemeal components, and tweaking styles from a myriad of different sources (programmed for a myriad of different soundsets) is simply a task beyond most of us.

Look at conversions... they RARELY ever sound as good as the original style. Despite often being played on better arrangers than the original. Want to know WHY? Because, as any decent player will tell you, the sound IS the performance. You play each different sound differently. No two Rhodes' sound and respond identically. A good player adjusts his playing to the sound. A MIDI file that sounds great on one piano sample set often sounds just plain WRONG on another. Drums that make the most of the dynamics and sample switch points of one drumkit don't work on another where the dynamic curve and sample crossover points are different. The sound IS the performance...

This is why translations rarely sound even as good, let alone better than the original. And that's with a fully integrated, closed arranger soundset to work with. Now complicate things even further by having a VSTi soundset that is pieced together from a myriad sources AS WELL... You start to see what I'm getting at? There's a reason most of the MS style translations sound like poo... Because ALL translations sound like poo. Problem is, on the MS, that's all you've GOT. The ROM styles and sounds are amateurish at best, so translations is your only game.

Until Lionstracs simply do what is necessary, and actually hire some SERIOUSLY skilled style programmers and provide them, with a preset set of sounds to work on that are at the top of their game, not freeware and shareware amateur efforts, they are going to compare poorly to closed arrangers, period. As has been pointed out, Yamaha, Ketron, Korg etc. spend a FORTUNE getting these made. And THAT is why they sound so good. But sorry guys. I haven't heard ONE single home made style from anyone on this forum EVER that blew me away. NOT ONE. And those were made for already well integrated soundsets.

As I have always said, were this forum a hotbed of great style creators, talented soundset creators, I honestly think the open arranger would have a future. But when the few that actually DO have the balls to post any music they've done on the MS miss the mark so widely and the rest just talk, talk, talk (basically proving that they HAVEN'T made anything that honestly makes a closed arranger look silly), what is one to expect..?

I'm sorry, but my 'fear' of the open arranger (if you want to call my skepticism that) doesn't come from LESS knowledge than you protagonists. It comes from MORE knowledge, I regret...

After watching five YEARS of MS fanboys fail to come up with a serious challenge to a good closed arranger, I am seriously worried about THEIR mental health. Surely denying all the facts for such a long time can't be any good for anyone's psyche... The Emperor STILL hasn't got any clothes, has never HAD any clothes, and no-one in their right minds is going to walk around naked (musically, at least!) while the future takes its' own sweet time getting here.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#286317 - 04/23/10 04:12 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
This thread, combined with DNJ's 'Is this a good time to buy an Audya' thread, would make a fascinating play. You couldn't dream up a better cast of characters. But since few of us are actors, who would play us? Of course, I would be played by Denzel Washington (that's a no-brainer ), but who would play Diki, who would play Fran, Donny, Ian, Nedim, Tony, Gary, Bebop, Nigel, DonM, Semi-live, Leezone, Rikki, Russ, Rory, TonyMads, SqueakD, ScottYee, Eddie, Randy, James, et al? TWD, of course, would play himself, as no one could match the 'original' .

Want to try your hand as a casting director? Pick a SZ member and nominate a well-known actor to play them in the new blockbuster remake of War and (rarely) Peace. And no, ol' Yellow can not be nominated to play an MS owner afraid to post (music). Also, Andy Rooney is not an actor and is also disqualified as a nominee.

chas

[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 04-23-2010).]
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#286318 - 04/23/10 07:09 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
Wasn't that a Yamaha beguine style?


Yes it was. Do you see what I mean. Doesn't come even close to how the style really must sound.

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#286319 - 04/23/10 07:41 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi Diki.

Quote:
When as James points out "The Open Keyboard will likely be the savior of the Arranger in the distant future" that's all well and good. But we are talking about NOW. As in 'TODAY'...


What I meant by that is that right now the arranger market is all but a shadow of it's former self. It only exists now as a fraction of what it used to be and nothing in comparison compared to the ever growing Workstation market because it's got old.

It's gotten old and the uptake from kids is nowhere near what it was as the sound and styles arrangers have don't reflect any of the mainstream modern music. For it to be restored to all it's glory the lines that define a workstation and an arranger need to be greatly blurred in addition to the merger of existing technology.

So that's the present and future I was talking about. Your more than welcome to stay in your bubble, but just make sure you stick your head above the sand from time to time in order not to fall behind. The OPEN keyboard is the sudden change in events that can turn an old idea into a new idea that's a million times more flexible and appealing to everyone. It can be whatever you want it to be even if your 18 years old or 60 years old.

All your seeing now is just the start of what's to come and it will roll out very quickly n the next few years.

Look at the iPad. It's only out a wet day and iPad DJ's are popping up all over the place now with programs like iElectribe and so on.

Quote:
Until Lionstracs simply do what is necessary, .......


It's getting boring now Diki with you repeating yourself so much.






[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 04-23-2010).]

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#286320 - 04/23/10 08:05 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Sorry, but if that is the 'future', I'll stick to the past

Unconvincing drums, unconvincing organ, stiff style, c'mon... you aren't expecting anyone to take this seriously, are you? No wonder you gig with your Prelude..!



I have to agree...the Mediastation's interpretation of an otherwise excellent style on a T3/S910 is bland, lifeless and, unfortunately, indicative of the instrument's role as an arranger.




No, I'm afraid we are not.


Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-23-2010).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#286321 - 04/23/10 08:20 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi Ian

Quote:
I have to agree...the Mediastation's interpretation of an otherwise excellent style on a T3/S910 is bland, lifeless and, unfortunately, indicative of the instrument's role as an arranger.


Your thinking very one dimensional here and typical of a user still thinking in terms of closed keyboard. How his style sounded entirely depended on what sound engine he used.

Regards
James

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#286322 - 04/23/10 08:28 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
Hi Ian

Your thinking very one dimensional here and typical of a user still thinking in terms of closed keyboard. How his style sounded entirely depended on what sound engine he used.

Regards
James


Not really...I'm only commenting on the Mediastation's use as an arranger in style play...which is what I asked Fran to show/demonstrate.

I got my answer.

Having that type of demo on a web site isn't doing the Mediastation any favors.

Perhaps it's time we heard some demos that showcased the instrument's alleged greatness in style play?

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#286323 - 04/23/10 08:33 AM Re: Open or Closed Keyboard
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Let's face it Ian ...Yamaha Tyros/S910 have arranger styles in the bag...until I hear anything better... that's MY opinion and I'm sticking to it " for now ". But I welcome the competition always.

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