here the devolpment of Groove X6 DJ and Groove X6 with 61 keys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQrl0u2kIhs

Domenic......
61 keys?...I'm getting excited.......please keep us posted on the progress & new details of this new model....good luck!

Great video clip.

Brings me back to my CNC Programming days. I used to program the machines used to punched out cases like that.

Regards
James

thanks guys
I recorded only 2 cases of the 10.. step by step..

James...
I saw that you have graphis skill for design the 4 U Rack case..
I'm in developement of one 4 U rack too ( secret of the features.. )
IF I send you the DXF front side under Coreldraw, are you able to design/editing over it the all new graphics?

i'm interesting to see what for a graphics ideas you can have.
Let me know if you like to make some.

Hi Dom



Ahh yes, my OASYS Rack. http://www.irishacts.com/misc/oasys-rack-concept-design.jpg




Sure, I should be able to use the drawing to make a 3D model. Send it on over and I'll take a look.

You might be interested in seeing this actually even though it's not a 4U module. Just to give you an idea of how I can spice up an exsisting design. I 3D modelled the entire KORG M3-M and redesigned the colour scheme and materials used in it's manufacturing. .

http://www.irishacts.com/misc/m3-custom1.jpg
http://www.irishacts.com/misc/m3-custom5.jpg

Regards
James

Hi Dom.
I didn't recieve that file ?.

irishacts at irishacts dot com

Regards
James

check your mail...

here first image of lionstracs Groove DJ version:
http://www.lionstracs.com/store/images/groove/grooveDJ.JPG

Great for a DJ, or some one that wil use it like a module arranger



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 10-19-2009).]

This is for Dnj...



and here the rear side:


we are ready to sell it.
Soon I post the Grooxe X6 full BLACK

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 10-20-2009).]

Dom Red or Black this looks VERY Interesting.......I appreciate your work.
I am interested and hope to find out more info about its features asap, via demos, videos, reviews, asap.

I need to know exactly what it can do to suit MY needs on steg or in studio......

Thank you

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-20-2009).]

great, now some close up images!

members go now to lionstracs.com for price and specification

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 10-20-2009).]

Just went to the site but no demo's on there. A bit odd.

I'm curious..., is this thing going to be arranger based with "modern grooves/Sytles".., or is it to compete with other open systems such as Open Labs?

i like the RED

looks like a Nord Lead on Steroids

how does this "arranger" sound OTB ?
or is it not an arranger at all?

it is worksation-arranger-video player-mp3 player-midi player- synth -VST -linux PC based studio- and...................

so then please list the styles that are included OTB with this "arranger".

and post some audio/video demos

leezone i think domenico is working on this demo's you ask for already, maybe you most wait some days for that

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 10-20-2009).]

can you post a list of the styles that come prloaded

by the style names, i will know if i show look into this further or keep my interest on AUDYA :-)

on my MS i have this groups style pre loaded OTB

Qranger:

KX A Group

5-4 Style
5 ballad
8 Beat 1
8 Beat 2
8 Beat 3
8 Beat 4
8 Beat 5
16 Beat 1
16 Beat 2
16 Beat 3
16 Beat 4
16 Beat 5
Acid jazz
Acid jazz 3
Aight pop
Arty Beat1
AZorgan
B6 Ballad 2
B B Rock
Ballad 6
Ballad 7
Ballad 8
Banjo Country
Brodway
C6 Ballad 4
Celtic
Country Beat
Country Fox
Country Fox 2
Country Rock
Country Rock 3
Country Rock 4
Country Slow
Country Waltz
Disco 2
Disco 3
Django
Funky 2
Funky 3
Funky 4
Gospel
Grunge Rock
Hip Hop 1
Hip Hop 2
Hip Hop 3
House 1
House 2
James Session
Jazz Organ 1
Light Pop 1
Motown
Movie song 1
Night Pop
Night Waltz
Party beat 1
Pop Funk 1
R&B Blues 1
R&B Blues 2
R&B Groove
Rock 1
Rock Ballad
Rock Shuffle
Rock Shuffle 2
Slow 1
Slow 2
Soul
Swing 1
Swing 2
Techno 1

KX B Group

At Dance
Bachata
Baroque
Beguine 2
Beguine 3
Bolero
Bossa Nova 2
Bossa Nova 3
Can Can
Caribe
Cha Cha 1
Cha Cha 3
Charleston 3
Cumbia
Fox Bllad 1
Fox Balla 2
Fox Trott 1
Fox Trott 2
Jazz Band 2
Jazz Waltz 2
Lambada B
Let Kiss
Lets Dance Latin
Limbo
Macarena
Mambo
Mazurka 1
Mazurka 2
Merengue
Merengue 2
Mussete
Ober Polka 2
Ober Polka 3
Ober Waltz
Party Polka
Paso Doble
Paso Doble 2
Polka 1
Polka 2
Polka 3
Pop 60
Quick Step
Ranchera Polka
Reels
Rockn Roll
Rockn Roll 3
Rockn Roll 4
Salsa 1
Salsa 2
Salsa Funky
Samba 2
Slow Fox
Slow Rock
Slow Rock 4
Slow Waltz
Tango 1
Tango 2
Tango 3
Tarantella
Twist 1
Twist 2
Waltz 1
Waltz 3
Winer Waltz

and you have 13 Live Stylers yamaha style folders with a lot of yamaha western styles

and you can also convert you styles With EMC Style works Or make your audio+midi or midi styles only on qranger style editor

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 10-20-2009).]

no KIZOMBA?

i need my Kizomba

and Nedim is very much into those nice Kizombas...

Dom,
Link doesn't work anymore.
Lee S.

Here the BLACK

They look great!..........are these just the same as the 76 Mediastaion versions feature wise or is there some other features included only the 61 model has?

Looking froward to some demos soon...

What's the cost conversion on one of these to US currency..??? I'm very curious as to what types of softsynths will be included for presets.., and other features as the word GROOVE is so clearly printed on the casing.

Will this compete with the lower end models of the Open Labs NeKo.., the EX-5 for example. I've been saying for a while now that considering what the MS is.., Dom should have a model focused at another group of buyers. Perhaps this model is his version of that.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 10-21-2009).]

Hi Squeak



GROOVE X6 2.590 EUR = 3.887 USD
GROOVE X6-RED 2.790 EUR = 4.187 USD
www.xe.com



I think when you look at the full line-up it's clear that he's targeting the right people now.

Regards
James

I would still think it's an uphill battle if the product is shipped (like the MS) with virtually no usable content, and everything is left up to the owner, again.

MotifXS's and FantomG's and M3EX's all come with a TON of usable loops and arps (figure what the sales would be without them), and sell well because of it. I just hope that Dom has learned from the MS, and decided that high quality CONTENT is part of the package...

This thing should ship with Omnisphere, SylusRMX and Ableton Live all preinstalled and configured to go, with a ton of usable multi's and templates, and a few of the premium VSTi's loaded. Sure, that's going to jack the price up, but you're going to have to put them in anyway, at some point, and having them in the basic package would be what you need to create factory demos and starter templates that is going to impress the jaded buying public...

If you can hold one finger down on a MoXS and it sound radio ready, but do the same thing on the Groove and it sound as lame as the OOTB MS is, guess which one they are going to buy (in numbers)..?

Hi Diki.
Shipping it with premium content like that will drive up the price and cause other problems like.....

I don't like those programs,
I already have those programs.
I only want the programs I already own installed which are none of the above.

Regards
James

Quote: Irishacts



i agree with you james
there are already good Giga sound in MS,
Only thing is you most be a good style programmer. there are good free VST to for linux.

with linux open source you have differents music programming world, then windows.


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 10-21-2009).]

Well, that's exactly what I'm talking about...

Leave those off, and you will be in a store on the same shelf as all the Majors. Only a small percentage of potential customers have the capability of determining what's better based on specs alone. Most want a fair bit of 'proof of the pudding' before they walk out the store with one.

An even smaller percentage is going to already have licenses for the on-board VSTi's (and are still going to need multiple licenses to use on both the computer and the Groove). All I'm doing is looking at this from a marketing POV. If your product is on a shelf next to something that sounds great, and yours doesn't, despite POTENTIALLY (after as much work as it takes to get the MS to beat an OOTB arranger ) being better, guess what 90% of the customers are going to buy?

Now, I'm not saying the customers are always RIGHT, I'm just saying 'The customer is always right!'

If preloading it with premium VSTi's gets you the sale, and leaving it totally up to the user doesn't (as Dom has found out with the MS), wouldn't it make sense to sell it in its' most sellable condition...?

Why not negotiate a 'dealer's license' deal with the VSTi people, that expires after six months (renewable) or when the dealer reports the unit as 'sold'. That way, on the shelf it sounds its' best, but the user still has to buy the VSTi's (but the factory presets will ROCK! ), and the buyer is almost SURE to purchase them just to get the factory presets again...

Only an idiot thinks that he can buy an 'open' product and he WON'T have to load it up with a fair chunk of premium VSTi's on board before it sounds its' best. Load it up at the factory... If the idiot decides he'd rather trade sound and convenience for cost, then deauthorize it, and sell it to him 'bare bones'...

But at least SHOW the thing at its' best, not the same way Dom has for the MS... If Dom had taken this course with the MS, and provided a TOTL VSTi set and TOTL styles developed for it, well, there doesn't seem to be a great shortage of people buying Audya's and T3's at $4500+... That bunch would take the MS FAR more seriously if it sounded as good or better than these, at about the same price. But to save money, I believe he sank the ship.

For the want of a nail...

If he thinks that the WS crowd are any more willing to do ALL the work themselves, he has only to ask himself why the M3, MoXS and FantomG come with such extensive content already provided... Let's face it, if Yamaha et al thought the products would sell anywhere NEAR as well 'bare bones', you bet their LIFE they would save themselves the cost of providing the onboard content..!

Here we go again....this unit isn't even out yet and dicki is bashing it.....
seems like Deja Vu all over again.

Agree totally with you James!
For that on groove is installed a new and different OS as the MS.
the GROOVE is a groove box powered by Qranger and multiple sounds engines, like the all others workstation.

No ONE styles is installed ( but of course WHO want can download from the GFTP server for free)
Same for the Live Styles, the module is REMOVED from the system installer, BUT is always possible to download from the Store and put inside the Presets system.

On Groove are installed another 10Gb FREE Loops library.
The coming soon OS 3.4 with a LOT of new features, 4 multiple VGA outs, can NOT be installed on the MS, untill the MS user upgrade the PCIexpress LVDS-VGA card, for the Open GL 3.0 and Fusion/Compiz features.

Just a question...what is arranger??

the way i and many see it is like this

what can it do for me OOTB? NOW ...

i don't want to know what it is CAPABLE of if i do this or download this, or buy this extra, or take a computer programming course to do this...

i wanna buy it and have it sound amazing, right then and there...

and i'm sure 90% of people would agree,
including Diki, right Diki?

domenico,

do not delete the styles,if users do not like the syles they can removed from preset folder.

with the styles onboard they can see what they can do with qranger.(they most be a example for creating styles)

and for live styler the new version 11 can load soundfonts from FluidSynth

read this:
http://www.live-styler.de/home/?News

and if we convert the giga sound in MS to SFZ and make a GM2 set for livestyler 11 in MS we wil have better yamaha styles sounding

I think that in some history book of the future, we will find both the MS and the Audya listed right alongside Franz Schubert's Symphony No. 8.



chas

Hi leezone.



You can't ask a question like that and then apply a condition saying you don't want to know what it's capable of. That makes your question totally pointless because your ignoring the entire concept behind the keyboard.

Out of the box it's going to allow you to run any content pre-installed and access to the sample library. If you want more or if your not happy with somthing... then that's the entire point of the keyboard. You can add more and anything you want to it.

The only thing the keyboard needs to do in the shop is give you prof of concept. If it can do what it says it can, then technically there is no argument. You simply load and keep only what your heart desires most.

Regards
James

James,

then how can LIONTRACS say this is an arranger when it comes with "0" styles ???

oh, ye, YOU "can" put your own in there...
until it comes with some REAL styles, some real kick ass content, i , and many will not consider...


i guess 1+1=3 in this case

I think these are tight out uggly.. The orriginal metalic ones look better (personal opinion)

@Diki: Do you know how many free vst's sound better then any of current Total arrangers ?

I think you would be surprised.

Next to that from a marketing point of view, they are not trying to sell this instrument to Diki, but to people allready heavy intoo VST's that want an all in one solution for the on stage.

... Next to that you forget that they can allways make package deals if neccessary, selling this and NI KOMPLETE installed on it for $6000 or so, i bet everyone will buy the cheeper version... and install their own copy of NI Komplete on it.

I actually love that it's 61 keys, and the RED color & all the buttons really looks contemporary and more high tech then the Nord Units.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-21-2009).]

I think the red one is as ugly as the inside of a monkey...the black one is distinctive, with emphasis on the "stinct".

Seriously, I hope it sounds good.

Well beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.....at least it's not blue ;D

the red one is a good design i had asked for this colors when i
purchased the the MS, but it was only possible when a new case was designed,


why red? becouse it is a synth and not only a workstation-anrranger.........

why black? becouse black is natural color it can be use easy with other colors, designers know this


0 styles? no you have styles becouse you can download it for free if you like it.

but i think is better to not remove the styles from preset folder(they most be a example for style creating on qranger editor).

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 10-22-2009).]

Hi leezone.


They didn't say it was and to call it one is to imply that it is a very specific type of keyboard. So try see it as a universal device given the fact that it can do whatever functions you need.

I think your expectations will hold you back from seeing the concept for all it is. You just want it to sound just like the other complete and closed arranger keyboard out of the box. That's fair enough but since it does not come shipped like that, don't just close your mind to the concept because the concept far exceeds the abilities of every arranger and workstation combined.

Remember it can be whatever you want. Lionstracs only focus should be making sure that concept works flawlessly and gives you the tools and flexibility to turn this into your dream machine.

Regards
James

James is right.., the concept behind this Groove box is what's really the key here. I can't even count the number of times I've heard people say they want a keyboard where they have the option of wiping everything out and adding all the things they want.

As James stated the success of this new instrument for Dom will be in the stability of the OS and how well she plays with all the programs out there.

Here's my question though.., given the conversion to US currency (as is out of the box).., which one currently offers more for the price to the buyer.., The NeKo EX-5 or LT Groove..??? The Neko ships with already known and well trusted applications out of the box.

Based on the price conversion provided by James the Neko EX-5 is almost $500 cheaper.

Sqk

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 10-22-2009).]

Hi squeak
The thing to watch out for there though is that Open Labs have stripped the EX-5 of it's real-time controllers. There's only 1 unit left on the front panel and it's by no means a main unit.

As for the included software, other than RIFF and Reaper I still can't help thinking it's a really bad idea to be charging people for software you force upon them http://openlabs.com/nekoex5-software.html

Most people buying into a Neko are already VSTi users and will already have their own library.

Just my 2 cents though.

Regards
James

for O.S stability:

with this new hardware in groove you have a verry stable O.S

the the O.S is
developed special for a dualcore CPU and soon for Quadcore to.

it now a stable O.S and
development is fast.

i think sooen we have a new update for qranger, the 4.3.1 version. and soon you can load SFZ 2 with linuxsampler. and...........more.............



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 10-22-2009).]

Once again, the argument divides into those that see all the 'potential' in the product, and those that want that potential realized as 'proof of concept', at least to a certain degree...

Everyone ignored my comments about marketing the thing (funny how everyone likes to take bits and pieces of what I write and ignore the more inconvenient parts!). Let's face it, Neko and Lionstracs are tiny niche products in a MUCH larger market. But that much larger market is still a TINY industry. To be successful, to grow and compete, to assure your customers that you'll be around for years, making improvements to existing models, coming out with new groundbreaking stuff, first you have to SUCCEED. Or you end up like Wersi, who have been in and out of bankruptcy more times than their customers ought to feel comfortable with...

And, as those companies that ARE successful have proved, you don't succeed by putting a model on the store shelf that sounds like ass, and telling your customers 'Oh no... in YOUR hands it'll be the most amazing thing you ever heard!'

Can you IMAGINE the sales of the MoXS without well developed sounds (just give them the raw waveforms, let them make all the patches from scratch) and professionally created arps and loops (everybody that buys it is going to be a star programmer, anyway ).

Look, I 'GET' what Lionstracs are all about... Trouble is, the largest part of their target demographic DOESN'T. And even fewer of those that seem to understand what the Groove is about actually have the skills (no shortage of those that THINK they do, until they actually get one - eh, MS owners? ) to realize its' potential.

The SUCCESSFUL keyboard manufacturers have already figured this one out... if you DON'T provide a lot of high quality content, you are going to sell very few units. Just exactly how many different things is Dom going to make before he wakes up and realizes that PERHAPS they are successful BECAUSE they have this figured out...?

And also do not forget Stephen Kay has also ported the great Karma software for the Open Labs products as well.

Thats a huge advantage, and its cheaper too!! and running Windows 7 (which is brilliant by the way), awesome.

Not mention the ease with which one can integrate thousands of existing programs and software arrangers. If one were to go down the path of a 61 note open keyboard, the Open Labs have anything Lionstracs can throw at it well covered.

Karma is something Lionstracs can only "dream about and droll over".

So far as fas as I am concerned, all that happened is a change of skin. Still a sheep in wolfs clothing. JMO

Hi Diki.



Not true, I replied to you directly and others took part in the conversation.



No, my reply was just straight to the point.



What's your point ?

Yamaha, Roland and KORG all do extremely well and have turnovers in the millions of dollars each year. Open labs, SM Pro Audio, Muse and Lionstracs are very young, but clearly there is a huge market out there for open devices. Seems everyone is buying them these days. So maybe in a few years they too will all have a turnover in the millions. Everyone has to start somewhere.

WERIS are clinging to what is left of the Organ market and if that's where they see their business, then good for them. Everyone is trying to take a piece of the big pie and it's only the smart ones who will get to have more of that in the future.

If you want to know what the future holds, just look at the past 10 years in the music industry. Closed hardware is by no means secure any more.

I think the OASYS is also one step away from KORG bringing their own fully open keyboard to the table.



You are seeing everything upside down.

If someone builds a closed system that cannot be expanded, then it must come with it's own synth engine and factory sounds.

Where an Open keyboard can run anything you install on it, so it does not have to come preloaded with premium content of factory sounds. All it must do is give proof of concept.



What your saying here is only your opinion based on no facts whatsoever. Do you honestly thing that Dom is only marketing these at arranger users only when the keyboard is an open platform that can serve the workstation and VSTi market too.

Seriously mate, the workstation and VSTi world is many times the size of the arranger market and this keyboard can be marketed and all of the above.

Remember it's an open keyboard. It can be whatever you want it to be.



Again... your talking about nothing but closed keyboards. I really feel that you are missing the entire point.

Dom needs to give Proof of Concept, nothing more. It's up to the end user to install their favourite VSTi's.

Regards
James.

Hi miden



Yes, and I'm shocked KORG didn't back a truck full of money up to Stephens house to keep the exclusive on that.

What I'd love to see is Stephen turning around with his own VSTi Synth powered by KARMA. Man that would be an instant success.



Yes, there's the history to the MS for sure which is why I said only thing that Lionstracs need to give people is proof of concept. You would know better than me, but I believe the main problems were focused around the arranger side of things.

So I guess the question is, did the new OS and hardware solve all that.

Regards
james

Look, I'm talking about keyboards of ANY kind... I don't care whether it's open or closed. I know for a FACT (having been in retail many times) that the included sounds SELL the product. Whether open or closed, that simple fact doesn't change.

You MIGHT have noticed that Muse sell pre-loaded, pre-voiced and setup versions of their products. Even THEY seem to have grasped the concept that a Receptor in a store with the sounds and setups already loaded is going to sell the unit better than an empty one

What seems to be more worrying is that, although what I say seems to be shot down as 'my opinion only', little attention is payed to the fact that what YOU say is only YOUR opinion, also. No more facts (in fact, less) than mine. How something SELLS is the final arbiter of whether the general buying public 'get' your concept. And closed, well voiced and contented keyboards of ANY kind (including 'open' keyboards) sell FAR better than empty shells you have to stock yourself. Of course, that's only the CUSTOMERS opinion... and what do THEY know, anyway?!

The day more Neko's, or Receptors, or V-Machines are sold than MoXS's or M3, come back and tell me my 'opinion' is just that...



There's the rub... they want the OPTION to wipe what they don't want. Bet your sweet ass they want to keep what is GOOD in there to start with, though.



The day I hear ANYONE post a style demo here done with anything 'open' that beats a T3 or PA2Xpro, etc., you will be able to make that point. Until then, they only have the 'potential' that no-one has yet realized, which beggars the question (one more time!)... just how GOOD do you have to be to be able to realize this potential? Doesn't appear to be ANYONE on this forum that can do it. Do we ALL suck, or is it harder than we dream?

I keep trying to make this point, and no-one EVER answers it... If you aren't ALREADY making great, better than 'closed' ROM arranger styles on the arranger you already have (and let's hear 'em if you think you DO ), what on EARTH makes you think that you can do it on an 'open' keyboard that is even HARDER to do it on? You would think, from all the posts promoting this and the MS that this forum is a hotbed of TOTL style creators and synth voicers. Mysteriously NO-ONE posts anything that proves it, mind you...

I know it's great to dream. But sooner or later, you have to wake up to what your capabilities actually ARE... Prove them to yourself on the gear you already have, THEN go and buy something even more complex. If what you make on your closed gear is at least as good as the factory stuff, that is...

i too would like to hear some Demos,
to see how this "Open-Empty-Expandable" Workstation compares sonically to let's say a "closed" AUDYA

Yes James, I agree. Why Korg did not do that is a total mystery, but now the Genie is out of the bottle, so to speak, more power to Stephen Kay.

I would not even be surprised to see in the future it even being linked to Yamaha. Wow an XS synth with Karma......Wooohooo!!!!!

And Stephen Kay releasing his own VST would also be awesome

As for the old MS , unfortunately it was not just the arranger that had issues James. As I have said I use an arranger for a small percentage of what I do.

As a VST device connected to a keyboard it was great, really!

But the issues were myriad : how the controllers were mapped, how the panel button functions were changed with no documentation as to new functions. Or were jsut "disconnected" from the OS again with no documentation.

How users are now forced to pay for features that were advertised to be an intrinsic part of the OS.

The complete lack of ANY serious documentation. The glitchy nature of the Linux system with Audio. The random operational failure of the JACK audio routing system. The noise artefacts from digital controls. The fact that even though there are 8 sliders the real-time "real world" live use was quite awkward and clunky.Output gain staging op amps requiring serious output limiting.

Look, there is probably other stuff, but I just cannot remember (and I really cannot be bothered, to tell the truth).

And all of that is BEFORE we even look at styles or the arranger side. Or even the sequencer side which was NOTHING even remotely solid like Cubase, Logic or Sonar. When I dumped my MS, it still could not even properly save CC0/32 or patch data properly in a basic MIDI file.

But of course, that is not Lionstracs fault, as they are very quick to point out.

That's the fault of the Q-Tractor developer.

Not trying to be rude here, but following your line of argument, all Dom had to do was provide a concept of a sequencer onboard, whether it worked properly or not was not his problem but the problem of third party devlopers and end users.

Sorry but thats not a concept I can agree with.

Plus the MS had the most convoluted and arcane system of saving files from the sequencer I have ever come across. I figured it out in the end, but its NOTHING intuitive or like any other file system.

So yes this new device would have a lot, no a MOUNTAIN of fixes to do..Again all this is just my opinion but based around actual ownership.

There are other owners out there who would know this stuff too, but for whatever reason, they are deciding to "piss in the pocket" as our saying goes...or "sucking up to the boss" and either glosssing over the deficiencies, or are in denial about their existence.

Or of course they are so proficient in its use that they can use it as it is. But apart from Zmago , I have seen no compelling evidence of that anywhere, even from the owner of the company.

Dennis

Hi Diki.




But �����IT DOES������ come with sounds. You know this too so I'm not sure what your point is anymore.



I'm just quoting the facts. If you don't believe what I'm saying then go read the content of the thread, read what Lionstracs have posted as well as what is posted on their official website.

It's not an empty box, and it does come preloaded with sounds and content.

If you disagree with what's been posted, then tough luck mate. There is nothing you can do about it. I don't agree with our views that it should contain a premium VSTi, and more importantly neither does Lionstracs.

When I bought my V-Machine the only thing that was on it was a collection of free VSTi's. Again, all it needed to do was to demonstrate it worked and the unit sold very well even though the VFX application was buggy.

I don't want to be arguing with you or taking sides in any of this. The fact are as they stand, it does come with content preinstalled, but does not contain a commercial VSTi. Lionstracs don't believe they need one, and I agree for the reasons I've mentioned in my other posts.

I don't want to have to pay for something I don't want.

Regards
James.

As is posted on the official website and here in this thread, it is not empty and it does come preloaded with GB of samples.

Regards
James

Hi miden.



We can only dream and drool. Well, I can also enjoy my M3 and OASYS as well



No, proof of concept to me means that it does work and does everything as advertised. No compromises and no passing the blame onto anyone else. You cannot build something and say it does A,B and C but knowing in the back of your mind that none of those things work because of some other developer that has nothing to do with the product. To do so is dishonest.

Again correct me if I'm wrong, but all the problems with the Mediastation were directly related to a specific OS version that came out later, and that everything has been resolved since then.



The behaviour of some people on the forum doesn't help matters either in that regard, but it is shameful that people are not telling it as it is, if indeed that is how things are right now.

If things have been fixed, maybe they are happy ?.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 10-23-2009).]

Just my 2 euro cents about the OS...

So..there seem that you prefer the system under Windows OS as the Linux?

maybe you still don't have understand how much is complex the MS OS, for running in realtime so many application and give you on pannel the all ready features.
Of course, more new features we include, more new bugs come out, this is normally for any type of application.

Here is NOT to RUN just one application, like a DAW SEQ, look how MANY years of developement work have Locig, Cubase, Nuendo..I think are more than 10-15 years...and still they can have bugs.

Same is for windows OS...now you have the new windows 7...but how you can be sure that is full BUGS FREE? For sure they wil fix too..

How I told many time before, I have also the windows driver for the MS front pannel and Audio card Envy24 too.

I can install the windows OS and running ANY windows application, same as the Open Labs.

Why I will not release it??
For this SIMPLE issue: http://forum.openlabs.com/index.php?showtopic=1569

( When I open Reaper each and every time the following message pops up:

"The following MIDI inputs could not be opened:
Presonus firebox Midi In"

The consecuense of it that I cannot record because reaper tells me:
"cant record: no tracks armed for recording"
Please help me guys, Its my 2nd day with the neko and this is frustrating...)
the reply there:
That appears when you have two MIDI programs open at once. Maybe Riff was already open when you launched REAPER. Close all programs then open REAPER.

So... do you like have a OPEN system that allow you to RUN ONLY one application at time?
Do not forget also the same issue with the ASIO, only 1 ASIO host at time.
it mean: run and play Reaper, BUT you can NOT use then some sound manager like RIFF, Forte...
You have always to Open-Quit application for use the all Host applications...
Just look the recorder Open Labs video demos, 90% of the time, they have to touch the display, PC keyb, trackball..they play one sounds for some seconds and then spends minute for the navigation/setups..

It is this the system that you are looking for?

About Karma: really one AMAZING application!
The problem is that is only a MIDI Seq with logical arpeggiator. For make really working right, need the all correct and preloaded soundfonts/vst.
Karma have nothing to do with the Arranger system and is not a DAW recorder that you can record audio tracks.
Really amazing application, but how many of you are ready to use it for develope new pattern system?
To many there are NOT able to record some chords on one standard SEQ...Karma is NOT a toys, is a really Complex system, for professional user.

Anyway, said that....I really like to know if you prefer one windows keyboard system or some like the Linux embedded system..
Who want, I can release also the windows driver for the all new products too, then you can choose what to install and remap.

here one example for understand what I mean about multiple Asio/Midi hosts:



[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 10-23-2009).]

Hi Dom.

I think regardless of what you say some people will still never be happy. I'm also going to say it as it is here, there are some people who are use to being spoon fed from the likes of KORG, Roland and Yamha and the thought of buying a keyboard that is not all singing and dancing straight out of the box simply is beyond their understanding.

Which is very sad in a way because it's not beyond their abilites. They are just not getting the concept yet.

So long as Lionstracs provides a rock solid open platform then there is no reason on earth why the X6 or any other Lionstracs product can't be the ultimate dream machine for any user.

Diki of all people makes me mad the most because I know he has the ability do to more on the X6 than any of his arrangers but he still wants to be spoon fed and have an all singing and dancing open keyboard to act like a closed keyboard. It's like he has the expectation of programmers more advanced than he is to continue holding his hand by doing all the work for him when he's more than able to help himself.

Regards
James


[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 10-23-2009).]

i am for linux why?

1-low latency
2-stability
3-fast bugs fixing
4-every programmer or user can help with development to make the software better.
5-you can easy contact the developers if you like new options.
6-you have with linux wine both from windows and linux world.

the most here do not knew that the MS O.S is now in beta 3 stage. soon we have the most advanced workstation system with the release candidate O.S

Irishcts. WElcome to the discussion. You dont really know the history of this forums relationship with the MS and Dom over the last 5 years or so. Proof of concept as a theoretical argument is fine but not in relation to this product or any product from the Liontracs stable. There is deep mistrust of the manufacturer because of the over hyped promises that were made in the past about the products and what they could do (not specifically this one but people dont forget when they bought a lemon that was promoted as and i qoute "the mother of all arrangers").

I know this is a completely different product but before you endorse it understand the history of the manufacturer. I am not going to do this but i would bet you the cost of downloading the 59 page (thats right 59 page) manual that it will be very poorly translated into english and fairly incomprehensible. I have calculator manuals with more pages in it . This is a complex machine with incredible flexibility . Where is the detailed guide ?

I wanted to qoute a portion of the Qranger manual that was a feature of the MS to prove my point about poor translations and incomprehensible technical babble but unfortunately all the previous links have been removed.

I think the Mediastation made a couple of missteps from day one. Now, it's becoming increasingly harder to un-ring that bell. The first was to call (or intimate) it an 'arranger keyboard'. Once you go down that road, you expose yourself to every past, present, and future, arranger owner, all of whom are going to tune out every other (in some cases "great") feature of the KB and key in on how it stacks up as a single-purpose, dedicated, gig-ready, ARRANGER. As far as I'm concerned, there isn't a Swiss Army Knife anywhere that will drive a screw as well as a good Craftsman screwdriver.

Next, WORKSTATION. Most of the above would still apply if marketed as a workstation. As Diki has pointed out many times, without application-specific content (in this case, loops, arps, and vast and modern sound libraries), it would be very difficult for it to compete against the the MOXS's and Fantom G's of this world, and the virtually unlimited resources (financial and R&D) of their parent companies. What's left? VSTi player? Practically any modern KB controller and a laptop can duplicate those functions, and at a much cheaper price. Sequencer? Nearly any BOTL sequencer on any BOTL laptop (the same one playing your VSTi's) can more than match anything you're likely to find built into any KB. The problem is, the person with the cash to spring for something like the MS (or OpenLabs) probably already has most or all of these functions. So who needs this 'Frankenstein'? Certainly not the arranger-playing OMB. Not the gigging 'keyboard player' in the local band. Not the Studio guy, who has access to all these functions at a much higher level. Old, retired, well-to-do, ex-Wersi/Lowrey/Bore-everybody-at-the-party types? Nope. That group can barely figure out how to get their email (those that have it). The 'Young 'uns'. Not really. The latest generation of WS's has a stranglehold on that crowd.

The sad truth is, at this point in time, there really may not BE a market for this type of innovative product. If we are to be honest, as much as we wish Dom well and as much as we would like to see him push the envelope to the limit, this piece remains more of a curiousity piece than an object of our desire. What we want is something that comes in and wipes out that thing that we've ALREADY identified as our 'weapon of choice', be it arranger, workstation, super-synth, or whatever. Until that time, any attempt at real innovation (I'm not sure that I consider cramming a bunch of applications together into one platform, real innovation) is going to be met with armies of both supporters and detractors, both with good points to be made. JMO.

chas

you can download the qranger v3.0 beta

here:

http://www.lionstracs.com/store/mediastationmanual-p-144.html

but remember the new version on O.S 3.3 is qranger V4.2

A post like this one really underscores the lack of understanding of an open keyboard.
Imagine if back in the day synth manufacturers were to say why have a sequencer on a keyboard when people already have 4 and 8 track recorders.
Or, why have drum sounds on a keyboard when people already have dedicated drum machines.

If you understand the thinking of manufacturers at that time then you should be able to understand the open keyboard concept.

If you read the quoted post then read my post, you should be able to think of the word that is the cornerstone of the evolution of synths to workstations and now workstations to open keyboards. I will give you a hint, it begins with I.

Man, I'm starting to think everything in your world begins with "I". But it does beg the question, why would someone who so clearly understands all the intracacies and nuances of all things musical, need the advice of a bunch of ignorant slackers such as, well, the rest of us, in picking out a cheapo keyboard for his friend. I think I may have a problem listening to or taking serious any of your future proclamations (aka BS - begins with "B", ends with "T").

chas

Maybe if I say what I've been saying all along this way it will help understand why I see the concept a certain way.........

If I buy a Lionstracs X6 and install just Komplete 6 on it, what advantage has a Motif ES or any closed workstation got over that.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 10-23-2009).]

Exactly james, and on this I agree totally. But, and this has been my main argument all along, its the operability and hardware that let this machine down.

Dom is always pushing the boundaries, yes, BUT he also has to know when to mature a product then leave it and move to the next.

Users get frustrated with the myriad changes and then the myriad updates and waiting for operating system tweaks to get the new changes to "play nicely" with what went before.

I did not buy the MS for its OOTB functions, I bought it for what I could do with it.
But a complete lack of comprehensible documentation, plus a flaky operating system, and I will concede this was in part due to the flaky nature of Linux running audio applications. (and I even ran Linux Studio on my PC for a while in conjunction with the MS, and it was just as flaky.), meant it was very tough to get this to work as it should playing live.

As a studio keyboard it would pass muster, JUST, and were I in a better frame of mind (as in not as frustrated with it and pissed off) I may have kept it for just that purpose.

Anyway if you decide to take the plunge into the world of Lionstracs,(or if you are being given one pro-bono in exchange for input) good luck, you will need it LOL.. And a strong internal "suspension system" for the many speedhumps you will come across.

Dennis




[This message has been edited by miden (edited 10-23-2009).]

Look, James, the MS comes with 'content' in it too... trouble is, it's basically BS content. Thinking seems to be 'load it up with cheap sh*t, let the owner put the good stuff in on HIS dime'.

Trouble with this is, as I pointed out. ON THE SHELF, all the prospective buyer gets to hear is the cheap sh*t, all he hears on the factory demos is the cheap sh*t, and so far, the number of actual OWNERS that can make it sound a LOT better (which it needs to, to get even close to a T3) seems to be about zero!

All I'm doing is extrapolating...

As with the MS, there is a chorus of people that cry 'you don't get it' but absolutely NONE of them have anything posted that proves in the slightest that they do, either..

SURE... 'theoretically', all Lionstracs products OUGHT to be the most amazing thing you ever heard. They've been out for YEARS now. I STILL haven't heard a damn thing that demonstrates any OWNER has fully realized this potential (and I've heard a plethora of posts that prove they haven't ).

Doesn't the time come in a product's life when 'potential' has to be actually demonstrated? And doesn't that product have to make it easy for mere mortals to realize this potential..? So here, modified, is my new axiom...

If you aren't ALREADY making jaw-droppingly good music on a computer, with VSTi's and loop players, you aren't going to be able to do it magically on the Groove. You have to ALREADY have the talent and skills to do this on a much cheaper computer setup before spending money for something hardware to do EXACTLY the same thing...

How's that? It's kind of like my 'if you can't make styles as good as the ROM ones on your current arranger, buying an MS isn't magically going to be able to make you do it, either'...

Reality bites, my friends

Classic reaction to attack the messenger when one realizes that they have no valid point.

BTW Obviously I would ask questions about a low-end keyboard here on the forum. A lot of the experts on low-end to mid-end keyboards are on this forum so why would I not ask the experts? If I had questions about real life experiences about the Yamaha S900 I would ask them here since most of the members here are Yamaha fans.

First of all, I don't consider you a messenger....for anything. At least I have an opinion and don't go around asking people to 'decide for me', which, by the way, is quite different from 'help me decide'.

And by the way, who said I didn't have a valid point? You? I didn't hear anybody else say that. I shared my opinion about what I thought might be some missteps in Liontracks' approach to the marketing and development of the Mediastation (and it's progeny). I ended my statement with "JMO". That was followed by YOU basically saying I was an idiot for having such an opinion (although the same basic opinions had been expressed many times by other members of this forum. So who is it that 'just doesn't understand the concept.....', just ME, or all the other members who share that opinion.

No, you got me wrong, buddy. If I want to attack the messenger, I'll wait until a legitimate one shows up.

BTW, since you seem to want ANYbody else to decide FOR you, what your 'friend' should buy, I put it to my four year old grandson. He thinks you should buy a lollipop.

chas

Is it just me or is there just a hint of a putdown buried in there? Nahhhhh, probably just my usual paranoia.

chas

Of course not, friend Chas...we both know that there are experts on just about anything (and everything), here on SZ...there are even experts on experts.

EXPERTS
Experts have
their expert fun
ex cathedra
telling one
just how nothing
can be done

Ian Just Another Expert MacNeill

EXPERT = X is an unknown factor, and a spurt is a drip under pressure

Expert (noun)..one who knows more and more about less and less.

Yep...that could be me.

The more I know, the more I know how much I don't know.

Wow!
Good job at misrepresenting a post.
Since when is asking whether there is a keyboard out there that has certain subjective and objective features asking people to decide for me? I take it that you are against persons who have post like �which arranger should I buy?�

I probably should not be responding to you on this issue because this is a ridiculous OT issue but for those who may be wondering where did this discussion come from, here is the thread I posted.
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/020305.html
Back to the real topic, I never said you were and idiot. I just said you along with others do not seem to understand the concept of an open keyboard.
And, I made that statement by showing how certain statements you and others made shows a lack of understanding. It is contradictory to say that one understand the concept of an open keyboard and in the same breath say that because you have VSTs in the studio, a closed arranger and workstation, a laptop that can play MP3 files and a DAW that has a sequencer so there is no need for an open keyboard.

BTW, I see that you could not figure out the I word.

isnt any computer basically open ended if you have the skills to programme it ? Therefore if i had a lap top and the knowhow i could buy a midi keyboard controller and do all the functions that either the Neko or MS/Groovebox or what have you can do. But this is the problem with Open System type keyboards and its not about understanding the concept. Its about the ridiculous choice of target market for the product in terms of Doms marketing here on th arranger keyboard forum!!

You cant aim a product like this at this forum (read the title of the forum) and expect people not to ask what this product is for. If Neko and the MS can be used in such a way as to make music production easier , more fluid and natural (you know like how musicians generally like to make music) then show me that and i will run with it. But when someone like Miden who i have genuine respect for and who certainly gives the impression that he knows quite a bit about music production from a hardware and software perspective gives an actual review of a liontracs open system product , i sit up and listen. Do a search and read the review and then talk about 'proof of concept' again.

I am not having a go at you Sharp. I have plenty of respect for you both here and on the Korg forum.

There have been other people who have given opinions on the product both positive and negative who NEVER ACTUALLY OWNED OR USED THE PRODUCT and it not that their opinions are not valid. They are simply not truly qualified. There have been others who actually owned an MS open system product and achieved moderate success with it as a musical instrument but not actually used the instrument in anyway other than a VST host.

I am not knocking the Groovebox. Afterall what the hell do we know about what this instrument is for ? I mean we have had two pages of discussion based upon just two pictures of what looks like a new colour for the mediatstaion ...... How is it diferentiated from the very bad reputation mediastation ? whats it USP (Unique selling Proposition ? And if the MS is an open system cant the same ends be achieved by the MS ????

And we all know what a storming envelope pushing, seamless and inspirational instrument that was .........right ?????

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 10-24-2009).]

What is the Groove for? Well from its name and features I think we can pretty much assume it�s a Grove Box designed for DJ use.

Review: The Mediastation has been changed that much since the review that most of it is probably no longer relevant.

Who are the Neko and Lionstracs for: Those that want this type of instrument?

Definition:

Closed Keyboard: Designed for those that are happy to accept what the manufacture gives them.

Open Keyboard: Designed for those that want to use the software and sounds that they want.

Which is best: �Neither�, it�s all down to personal choice

i hear you abacus but the distinction between closed and open systems is not that clear anymore. The neko or MS is just a computer with keys essentially until YOU ADD content. the Korg M3 or Fantom G or yamaha xs is closed until you midi it to a computer and YOU ADD DIFFERENT CONTENT OR ADDITIONAL. What we are discusing in reality is if you want to work with one box of tricks THAT IS HOPEFULLY WELL INTERHGRATED AND FREE OF os GLITCHES ie Self contained keyboard or two box of tricks ie keyboard and laptoP AGAIN WITH A SMOOTH OS WITH LITTLE OR NO GLITCHES.

The same problems of software integration exists with BOTH SYSTEMS and it takes a certain customer to be arsed to work out thos e technical bumps themselves.

With the 'closed system keyboard' you are given lots of proprietory tools and sounds of very high quality to get you well on your way to making great music but it doeS not preclude you from 'opening the system' with a connected computer and some technical ability.

So who is the Neko or MS aimed at and why the hell is it being promoted as suitable for people on the arranger forum .......

That for me really is the crux of the matter

oh..... and every clip that i have seen on youtube of the Neko seems to show it being used as a glorified drum machine.....whats that about ??????

good point abacus, i had more 3000 sound in roland Va-76 and i have used only 80 sound for style creating, why becouse not all sounds are good in a closed system. with a open systen you can ad your sounds. it can be a good or bad sound. if you have better sounds you have a better sounding style in a open system. you can easy make the style sounding with your sounds from your library......

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 10-24-2009).]

However good a 'concept' may seem, it's probably doomed to failure if there is a cheaper, easier way to accomplish the same thing. JMO.

chas

BTW, now that the Korg Oasys is starting to show up on ebay in the 5k range, that would be an 'item of interest' for me (more 'settled' technology, IMO, even if some hardware components might be dated and continued support questionable). I always wanted one but considered it too expensive for (me to have as) a studio 'toy'. If I were more into experimental music, it would be a no-brainer for me. I've heard it demo'ed by sales hacks and still walked away with eyes glazed over in amazement. A really remarkable instrument. Probably the one I'd choose if I could only have one. Since I've got other more important stuff ordered already, I may settle for a used M3.

This topic is based about our new products and I leave you to discuss how much you like..

Here also a nice prewiev of the Vasio Rack 2 U version, with the 3D rendering help from James.
Is only a picture..BUT the real prototype EXIST! ( James get the all pictures and the PCB board leds that are working)
Give then also the Ebony Rack version, with only the Linuxsampler for Giga sounds streaming.

Here on full size: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/images/groove/rackvasio1.jpg

About 15 days and you can see the all TRUE pictures...
With 1800 Mb of Giga piano Stainway D Grand and 980Mb of Bosendorfer 290...I will really see who can compete with this sounds...
Enjoy

Wow thats an amazing looking box !!! And the angles are just so...so....box like and the bright lights really set it off !!!

Forgive my sarcasm. What is it ? What does it do, who is it aimed at why do you think the arranger forum would be in the least bit interested. Not being sarcastic.heard all the stuff about mega multi gig sounds blah blah blah ....it will sound better than anything ever created blah blah blah....I woonder what you are going to do with the Mediastation as surely those same words were used to sell that ........

Genuinely does liontracs know what they are selling and who they are supposed to be selling to, or are they just trying to unload a product to anyone who might feel generous enough to give them money for it ????

No really....i would like to know !

Yes... but it's important to point out that you get only 1 keyboard in your purchase of a Closed keyboard, and in the open one you get technically unlimited keyboards that come packed full of sounds just the same as a closed keyboard comes.

Go here for example and hit play to hear the demo of Tarkus. http://home.btconnect.com/christopherg/
It's worth listening to the entire tune as it changes in around 162.

Now look at the price...!!! 50 UK Pounds is only 82 USD. That's VSTi sound freaking awsome...!!!!I'm actually going to buy it for my V-Machine today. No wonder too, its from the same guys who made Superwave P8 which is a free VSTi that just blows my mind.

Or go here for a pack of 10 free VSTi's http://elektrostudio.ovh.org/
Click on the Audio Demo and listen to the first tune. It's like Jarre in a box for free.

This has just got to be the future of keyboards. The integration of hardware and software.

Hi spalding.

The hardware you are already using comes as is when you buy it. It has only one sound engine and specific functions.

Where lionstracs hardware loads up VSTi's which are software synths just like your hardware is, and allows you to use them as if that software existed as a hardware device just like what you are using already.

So rather than one closed system with one sound engine and specific features, you get a open system that can virtually run multiply synths all in one box.

Surly everyone can see the obvious advantages in that.

A software synth comes with factory sounds just like a hardware synth does so it's only a matter of loading the VSTi and you get tons of new sounds.

Regards
James

not bad graphic design james,very nice.

Thanks, I saw the mechanical drawings but as with any mechanical drawing, it's hard to visualise how the final product will look from a purely visual aspect so I decided to computer model the Rack unit in 3D and render it.

Personally I think it looks really well. I did however change some of the graphics on the front just so I could see what it would look like with a reduced amount of print on them from what Lionstracs normally uses.

Regards
James.

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 10-24-2009).]

Not trying to be sarcastic or looking for a fight, but I think it's a little bit insulting, not to mention a whole lot patronizing, to post such a response to Spalding. Judging from his posts, I think you'd have to conclude that he's intelligent, articulate, musically sophisticated, and technologically up to speed. So why talk down to him like he's a mentally challenged two year old?

Also, with all due respect, the examples you cited in the previous post either makes no sense on a forum such as this (ARRANGER, NOT EXOTIC SYNTH) OR it completely explains why there is such a disconnect between Liontracs and it's advocates and the 'Sweet Car-o-line' crowd that makes up the majority of this forum. None of the music in those examples is EVER played at the gigs these guys play. Most of the guys on this forum probably hate it. For sure, nobody's audience requests it. I would call it 'synth' music before I ever associated it with 'arranger' music. It sounds a lot like the patches I quickly skip over on my Fantom G (which someone like me probably shouldn't even own ). Like I said, if this is a shining example of what the MS or Groove can do, then that explains a LOT.

One last thing, although admittedly more expensive to implement, all 'closed' systems aren't limited to ONE sound engine. One example in my own arsenal is the Fantom G, which can host two (yeah, only two and they're expensive - but wait till you hear what's on them) ARX cards which are total, independent, full blown synthesizers with (IMO) even better integration with the host.

Look, I'm not saying that the 'open system' concept doesn't have it's appeal (and promise), but the proof is in the pudding and so far, for whatever reason, this concept has not caught on. There's probably even less chance of it catching on among arranger players. JMO.

chas

Huh ???
The questions he asked where genuine and I replied politely and with respect.

For that you accuse me talking to him like he's mentally challenged ? Seriously mate, you need to unplug and take a breather.



Considering what you are accusing me of above, your the only one I see here now putting down your fellow members. It's not a retirement home here, there are many people interested in all this sort of stuff and you actually have quite a cheek to insult your follow members in this way.

Every single time Diki and I have gotten very heavy with all the technical banter people join in to say how much the they enjoyed that and that we need more of that sort of thing here.

It beats the hell of of listening to grumpy people like you accusing people like me of something in the wrong. You need to wake up man, your not dead yet and it's good to learn something new everyday regardless of what type of keyboard you play.

James


[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 10-24-2009).]