Hi Diki.



Not true, I replied to you directly and others took part in the conversation.



No, my reply was just straight to the point.



What's your point ?

Yamaha, Roland and KORG all do extremely well and have turnovers in the millions of dollars each year. Open labs, SM Pro Audio, Muse and Lionstracs are very young, but clearly there is a huge market out there for open devices. Seems everyone is buying them these days. So maybe in a few years they too will all have a turnover in the millions. Everyone has to start somewhere.

WERIS are clinging to what is left of the Organ market and if that's where they see their business, then good for them. Everyone is trying to take a piece of the big pie and it's only the smart ones who will get to have more of that in the future.

If you want to know what the future holds, just look at the past 10 years in the music industry. Closed hardware is by no means secure any more.

I think the OASYS is also one step away from KORG bringing their own fully open keyboard to the table.



You are seeing everything upside down.

If someone builds a closed system that cannot be expanded, then it must come with it's own synth engine and factory sounds.

Where an Open keyboard can run anything you install on it, so it does not have to come preloaded with premium content of factory sounds. All it must do is give proof of concept.



What your saying here is only your opinion based on no facts whatsoever. Do you honestly thing that Dom is only marketing these at arranger users only when the keyboard is an open platform that can serve the workstation and VSTi market too.

Seriously mate, the workstation and VSTi world is many times the size of the arranger market and this keyboard can be marketed and all of the above.

Remember it's an open keyboard. It can be whatever you want it to be.



Again... your talking about nothing but closed keyboards. I really feel that you are missing the entire point.

Dom needs to give Proof of Concept, nothing more. It's up to the end user to install their favourite VSTi's.

Regards
James.

Hi miden



Yes, and I'm shocked KORG didn't back a truck full of money up to Stephens house to keep the exclusive on that.

What I'd love to see is Stephen turning around with his own VSTi Synth powered by KARMA. Man that would be an instant success.



Yes, there's the history to the MS for sure which is why I said only thing that Lionstracs need to give people is proof of concept. You would know better than me, but I believe the main problems were focused around the arranger side of things.

So I guess the question is, did the new OS and hardware solve all that.

Regards
james

Look, I'm talking about keyboards of ANY kind... I don't care whether it's open or closed. I know for a FACT (having been in retail many times) that the included sounds SELL the product. Whether open or closed, that simple fact doesn't change.

You MIGHT have noticed that Muse sell pre-loaded, pre-voiced and setup versions of their products. Even THEY seem to have grasped the concept that a Receptor in a store with the sounds and setups already loaded is going to sell the unit better than an empty one

What seems to be more worrying is that, although what I say seems to be shot down as 'my opinion only', little attention is payed to the fact that what YOU say is only YOUR opinion, also. No more facts (in fact, less) than mine. How something SELLS is the final arbiter of whether the general buying public 'get' your concept. And closed, well voiced and contented keyboards of ANY kind (including 'open' keyboards) sell FAR better than empty shells you have to stock yourself. Of course, that's only the CUSTOMERS opinion... and what do THEY know, anyway?!

The day more Neko's, or Receptors, or V-Machines are sold than MoXS's or M3, come back and tell me my 'opinion' is just that...



There's the rub... they want the OPTION to wipe what they don't want. Bet your sweet ass they want to keep what is GOOD in there to start with, though.



The day I hear ANYONE post a style demo here done with anything 'open' that beats a T3 or PA2Xpro, etc., you will be able to make that point. Until then, they only have the 'potential' that no-one has yet realized, which beggars the question (one more time!)... just how GOOD do you have to be to be able to realize this potential? Doesn't appear to be ANYONE on this forum that can do it. Do we ALL suck, or is it harder than we dream?

I keep trying to make this point, and no-one EVER answers it... If you aren't ALREADY making great, better than 'closed' ROM arranger styles on the arranger you already have (and let's hear 'em if you think you DO ), what on EARTH makes you think that you can do it on an 'open' keyboard that is even HARDER to do it on? You would think, from all the posts promoting this and the MS that this forum is a hotbed of TOTL style creators and synth voicers. Mysteriously NO-ONE posts anything that proves it, mind you...

I know it's great to dream. But sooner or later, you have to wake up to what your capabilities actually ARE... Prove them to yourself on the gear you already have, THEN go and buy something even more complex. If what you make on your closed gear is at least as good as the factory stuff, that is...

i too would like to hear some Demos,
to see how this "Open-Empty-Expandable" Workstation compares sonically to let's say a "closed" AUDYA

Yes James, I agree. Why Korg did not do that is a total mystery, but now the Genie is out of the bottle, so to speak, more power to Stephen Kay.

I would not even be surprised to see in the future it even being linked to Yamaha. Wow an XS synth with Karma......Wooohooo!!!!!

And Stephen Kay releasing his own VST would also be awesome

As for the old MS , unfortunately it was not just the arranger that had issues James. As I have said I use an arranger for a small percentage of what I do.

As a VST device connected to a keyboard it was great, really!

But the issues were myriad : how the controllers were mapped, how the panel button functions were changed with no documentation as to new functions. Or were jsut "disconnected" from the OS again with no documentation.

How users are now forced to pay for features that were advertised to be an intrinsic part of the OS.

The complete lack of ANY serious documentation. The glitchy nature of the Linux system with Audio. The random operational failure of the JACK audio routing system. The noise artefacts from digital controls. The fact that even though there are 8 sliders the real-time "real world" live use was quite awkward and clunky.Output gain staging op amps requiring serious output limiting.

Look, there is probably other stuff, but I just cannot remember (and I really cannot be bothered, to tell the truth).

And all of that is BEFORE we even look at styles or the arranger side. Or even the sequencer side which was NOTHING even remotely solid like Cubase, Logic or Sonar. When I dumped my MS, it still could not even properly save CC0/32 or patch data properly in a basic MIDI file.

But of course, that is not Lionstracs fault, as they are very quick to point out.

That's the fault of the Q-Tractor developer.

Not trying to be rude here, but following your line of argument, all Dom had to do was provide a concept of a sequencer onboard, whether it worked properly or not was not his problem but the problem of third party devlopers and end users.

Sorry but thats not a concept I can agree with.

Plus the MS had the most convoluted and arcane system of saving files from the sequencer I have ever come across. I figured it out in the end, but its NOTHING intuitive or like any other file system.

So yes this new device would have a lot, no a MOUNTAIN of fixes to do..Again all this is just my opinion but based around actual ownership.

There are other owners out there who would know this stuff too, but for whatever reason, they are deciding to "piss in the pocket" as our saying goes...or "sucking up to the boss" and either glosssing over the deficiencies, or are in denial about their existence.

Or of course they are so proficient in its use that they can use it as it is. But apart from Zmago , I have seen no compelling evidence of that anywhere, even from the owner of the company.

Dennis

Hi Diki.




But “““““IT DOES”””””” come with sounds. You know this too so I'm not sure what your point is anymore.



I'm just quoting the facts. If you don't believe what I'm saying then go read the content of the thread, read what Lionstracs have posted as well as what is posted on their official website.

It's not an empty box, and it does come preloaded with sounds and content.

If you disagree with what's been posted, then tough luck mate. There is nothing you can do about it. I don't agree with our views that it should contain a premium VSTi, and more importantly neither does Lionstracs.

When I bought my V-Machine the only thing that was on it was a collection of free VSTi's. Again, all it needed to do was to demonstrate it worked and the unit sold very well even though the VFX application was buggy.

I don't want to be arguing with you or taking sides in any of this. The fact are as they stand, it does come with content preinstalled, but does not contain a commercial VSTi. Lionstracs don't believe they need one, and I agree for the reasons I've mentioned in my other posts.

I don't want to have to pay for something I don't want.

Regards
James.

As is posted on the official website and here in this thread, it is not empty and it does come preloaded with GB of samples.

Regards
James

Hi miden.



We can only dream and drool. Well, I can also enjoy my M3 and OASYS as well



No, proof of concept to me means that it does work and does everything as advertised. No compromises and no passing the blame onto anyone else. You cannot build something and say it does A,B and C but knowing in the back of your mind that none of those things work because of some other developer that has nothing to do with the product. To do so is dishonest.

Again correct me if I'm wrong, but all the problems with the Mediastation were directly related to a specific OS version that came out later, and that everything has been resolved since then.



The behaviour of some people on the forum doesn't help matters either in that regard, but it is shameful that people are not telling it as it is, if indeed that is how things are right now.

If things have been fixed, maybe they are happy ?.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 10-23-2009).]

Just my 2 euro cents about the OS...

So..there seem that you prefer the system under Windows OS as the Linux?

maybe you still don't have understand how much is complex the MS OS, for running in realtime so many application and give you on pannel the all ready features.
Of course, more new features we include, more new bugs come out, this is normally for any type of application.

Here is NOT to RUN just one application, like a DAW SEQ, look how MANY years of developement work have Locig, Cubase, Nuendo..I think are more than 10-15 years...and still they can have bugs.

Same is for windows OS...now you have the new windows 7...but how you can be sure that is full BUGS FREE? For sure they wil fix too..

How I told many time before, I have also the windows driver for the MS front pannel and Audio card Envy24 too.

I can install the windows OS and running ANY windows application, same as the Open Labs.

Why I will not release it??
For this SIMPLE issue: http://forum.openlabs.com/index.php?showtopic=1569

( When I open Reaper each and every time the following message pops up:

"The following MIDI inputs could not be opened:
Presonus firebox Midi In"

The consecuense of it that I cannot record because reaper tells me:
"cant record: no tracks armed for recording"
Please help me guys, Its my 2nd day with the neko and this is frustrating...)
the reply there:
That appears when you have two MIDI programs open at once. Maybe Riff was already open when you launched REAPER. Close all programs then open REAPER.

So... do you like have a OPEN system that allow you to RUN ONLY one application at time?
Do not forget also the same issue with the ASIO, only 1 ASIO host at time.
it mean: run and play Reaper, BUT you can NOT use then some sound manager like RIFF, Forte...
You have always to Open-Quit application for use the all Host applications...
Just look the recorder Open Labs video demos, 90% of the time, they have to touch the display, PC keyb, trackball..they play one sounds for some seconds and then spends minute for the navigation/setups..

It is this the system that you are looking for?

About Karma: really one AMAZING application!
The problem is that is only a MIDI Seq with logical arpeggiator. For make really working right, need the all correct and preloaded soundfonts/vst.
Karma have nothing to do with the Arranger system and is not a DAW recorder that you can record audio tracks.
Really amazing application, but how many of you are ready to use it for develope new pattern system?
To many there are NOT able to record some chords on one standard SEQ...Karma is NOT a toys, is a really Complex system, for professional user.

Anyway, said that....I really like to know if you prefer one windows keyboard system or some like the Linux embedded system..
Who want, I can release also the windows driver for the all new products too, then you can choose what to install and remap.

here one example for understand what I mean about multiple Asio/Midi hosts:



[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 10-23-2009).]

Hi Dom.

I think regardless of what you say some people will still never be happy. I'm also going to say it as it is here, there are some people who are use to being spoon fed from the likes of KORG, Roland and Yamha and the thought of buying a keyboard that is not all singing and dancing straight out of the box simply is beyond their understanding.

Which is very sad in a way because it's not beyond their abilites. They are just not getting the concept yet.

So long as Lionstracs provides a rock solid open platform then there is no reason on earth why the X6 or any other Lionstracs product can't be the ultimate dream machine for any user.

Diki of all people makes me mad the most because I know he has the ability do to more on the X6 than any of his arrangers but he still wants to be spoon fed and have an all singing and dancing open keyboard to act like a closed keyboard. It's like he has the expectation of programmers more advanced than he is to continue holding his hand by doing all the work for him when he's more than able to help himself.

Regards
James


[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 10-23-2009).]