Ok James, you win. If it's an apology you want, you got it. Perhaps Spalding did need someone to explain to him the difference between an open and closed system and didn't consider it condescending. You certainly got it right about me being sometimes 'grumpy'. It's even ok for you to try to turn public sentiment against me for suggesting that the majority of forum members were probably not into experimental, trance, trip hop, etc., etc. and implying that most were in the 50-70 age group.

So again, I apologize for having the audacity to have an opinion different from your own. Heck, everybody knows that some guys are just flat out smarter than others, and those are the guys and ONLY the guys, that we should listen too. And if you still don't get it, they'll explain it to you in baby talk.

My only question is, What is YOUR interest in ARRANGERS and arranger-related things? From what I can gather, you mostly produce customized (tweaked) sounds and other-worldly musical landscapes and your primary tools are the Korg M3 and the Korg Oasys, both nice instruments, BTW, but hardly bread-and-butter arrangers.

Is it possible that an 'open system' may be a good (or even the best) approach for synths and workstations but not for an arranger (ie, plugging great sounds into a style or sequence doesn't always produce the best result). Just asking. Is it possible?

Sorry I ruffled your feathers, James. You certainly wouldn't be the first. But I do ask people to read what I write (hopefully twice) before (over)reacting to it.

Cheers,

chas

I think a lot of the disagreement regarding the MS being marketed on this forum and the usefulness of open keyboards stems from persons not able to articulate “what is an arranger”.
I have posted topics on what is an arranger (or words to that effect) but no one really answered the question.

More importantly is the “arranger” an evolving concept or does it stay as one way of making music.

Notice I am not asking what is a good arranger, but I am only asking the basic of questions that is what does a keyboard have to have in order to be able to be call an arranger.

Is an arranger an ends or a means.

Hi cgiles .

Give it time and you will get to know me better. You will never need to apologize to me because if something is said on either side it will ever only be a misunderstanding. Nobody is looking for a fight and we all have our opinions on every subject. We all just need to respect that so we can have a good old chat about any subject.



This is partly a misunderstanding because the sounds were emulations of 70's and 80's synths playing an 80's tune by Irish band U2. I grew up listening to all this type of music and Trance of today has not really changed that much from what is Electronic of the 80's. The sequencing is the same, the only thing that has really changed is the harshness of the sounds you can get away with now.



I own KORG Forums but my interest in arrangers is more in the real world than online. I'm the only guy in about a 80 mile radius that does all the programming for Arranger users regardless of make and model. I actually do all the programming for KORG users and at times I will help out selling keyboards regardless of the make or model.

I also teach people how to use everything on their keyboard as well as other stuff like style conversions to help people move from one make of keyboard to another. So in the real world ( not online ) I actually spend quite a bit of time with arrangers, more so than I do with Workstations.

Tonight I even have to go to a pub about 9pm to connect Mini Disk recorder to a guys KORG Pa1X / Mixing desk so the band can record themselves playing live.

Where I live there are more arranger users that Workstation users, so I am probably more involved with them overall than the individuals playing them.



It's a yes and no answer, sorry.

Out of the box a closed arranger will sound better hands down because there is no such thing as an arranger computer program (VSTi) that has it's own sound engine. So the styles the arranger software will come with will not sound 100% right when simply connected to a really good VSTi synth application.

But for VSTi sounds you can far exceed the Arranger keyboard sounds instantly with no effort whatsoever because the VSTi Synths come complete just like a closed keyboard does.

So the only way to greatly surpass the closed arranger with an open keybaord doing arranger functions is to pair the arranger software with a VSTi full of bread and butter sounds and then start adjusting the volumes of the tracks and maybe even changing to different sounds.

Without that the open arranger will sound inferior, but with that it will greatly surpass the closed arranger.



Not at all, don't worry about it. When it doubt about what I'm saying just ask me to elaborate and explain myself. Sometimes my fingers don't type things the way my brain is seeing them.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 10-24-2009).]

What everyone tends to forget about closed keyboards is that they are an amazingly INTEGRATED system. People of at least James' skill level have worked for months, years even, to provide you with a soundset that is ALREADY balanced, loops, arps and styles that are ALREADY balanced, and an OS that is ALREADY mature and (relatively) bug free.

All I have been trying to say is that, unless YOU have the same skills that these dedicated TOTL professional programmers and technicians (and unbelievably great musicians) do, what on EARTH makes you think that YOU can do something that takes a team of top pros years to get right?

Yes, blah blah blah... You can SAY how 'open' keyboards have the 'potential' to sound FAR better than a closed system. But every last proponent of them plays down, dismisses or outright ignores the FACT that to achieve this 'potential', you need to already BE one of those TOTL programmers. Every MS demo has only made this fact painfully obvious. Jeez, doesn't anyone even LISTEN to the music we make here at SZ? What on earth gives anyone the impression that we have ANYONE here with those skills, let alone a whole forum of them?

This is simply like someone going onto a forum of Corvette owners, and telling them that, IF they could build a car from scratch, they MIGHT be able to drive faster and better... And there MIGHT be one or two people there that possibly COULD build that car (most of them just drive!), but both of them would realize that it would be an enormous effort to build that car from scratch, and there would be NO guarantee that it even WOULD go better than their Corvette once they put all that time in...

This is what the 'open' fanboys always ignore. We are ALREADY driving Corvettes (figuratively ). You can make some pretty amazing music on a PA2X, T3, Audya and G70 (yes, even that - ask my clients!). Why would you put yourself in a position that you had to work for months, years even, to achieve something you can already do straight OOTB with a T3? The whole POINT of an arranger is convenience. If you are doing full on TOTL pro music production, you aren't doing it on an arranger, anyway. And, if you are doing TOTL computer production, you aren't going to risk your client base on an unproven product from a flakey company that failed to make an open arranger that impressed anybody...

Want to go out live, and maybe perform your trance masterpiece at a rave? Well, the Groove MIGHT be just the product for you

I just think that, for the majority of open fanboys, the idea of an 'open' system is simply a comvenient excuse to forgive their inability to make great music on a closed arranger. 'My music sucks, so it MUST be the gear I'm using... Look! Here's a product that promises me I will sound as good as the pros... so it MUST be good, right?

If you aren't ALREADY making music as good as the pros, buying an open arranger is simply going to make you sound WORSE than you would with a T3/PA2 etc.. And, if you ARE... what are you doing here?

Here we go again. Workstation players putting down and belittling arranger players.
When will it stop. When will workstation players stop making it seem as if arranger players do not have musical talent and skill and cannot operate modern musical equipment?
They are basically calling arranger players musically dumb.
It is getting really old with this assault on arranger players.
And, they are attacking arranger players and do not know and can’t even define what is an arranger.



[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 10-24-2009).]

Where did you read anything like that in this thread ?.

Regards
James

Hi Diki.
Go back and read the my second last post, the one to cgiles.

Your only repeating yourself and trying to make an argument out of thin air. We already covered all this and I've even explained what level of manual work is required due to the fact that no software arranger comes with it's own sound engine.

Regards
James


[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 10-25-2009).]

I think we have lost track here

1. The post was just an SZ member informing others of new products from Lionstracs, and yes it was not directly about arrangers, so posting on the general forum would probably have been better, unfortunately very few SZ members visit that forum, and for that reason most SZ members tend to use the arranger forum, (In an ideal world this wouldn’t occur, but we don’t live in an ideal world) however if the post doesn’t particularly interest you, then just ignore it. (PERSONAL opinions are always welcome just so long as you remember that they are YOUR personal opinion, and others may have different ones, there is no right or wrong about it)

2. Each individual requires different things from a keyboard, and consequently they buy what suits them, and sometimes post details for others to have a look at, (Whether the viewers like it or not is irrelevant, as its their choice) unfortunately some SZ members think that because a board doesn’t do what THEY want, then it must be rubbish and not worth considering, and well the only thing I can say to that is “GET OVER IT” as not everyone wants the same keyboard features as “YOU”. (It’s called freedom of choice, and is something that should be protected with vigour, as there are a lot of people that would like to remove it)

Bill

+1

You would have to read Diki's post before my own to see the reasoning for that statement