I have been noticeing a lot more people buying and useing vintage gear. Okay I know the recent trend towards going back to vintage gear (synthesizers, electric pianos & organs) starting in the early 90's. But what is it about the older gear the people ar scrambleing to buy and sometimes paying top dollar for? Is it the sound? I know I have heard some rather good sounding digital recreations of vintage synths, yet I own two old ARP synths, and just bought a Minimoog (still waiting for it to arrive). Or are some people just trying to reclaim there past? Either way most people in general would proably rather own a Minimoog, instead of a Korg Triton. What do you think?

Hello.............I too notice that trend. Maybe it's just the voices? I have a RolandED SC8850 that has loads of sounds. There must be over 100 vintage "electric piano" sounds that take me back to specific songs of the 70s or 80s. The same with the synth type saw and square wave patches. Some older songs really do these older sounds justice. Just my opinion.............charley

For me it's the hatred of program windows , and lack of real time controls .

There is no doubt that the trend does exist.

My theory is that it's nothing but musical snobbery. People will talk about rich analogue sounds and such like, but in truth I'm very sceptical about the whole thing.

In the guitar world we have a similar thing with everyone wanting Les Pauls or Fender Strats- oh, and (sure enough) the older the better.

I actually fell prey to the trend and a few years ago I spent my entire student loan on the most expensive Les Paul in the entire city!

Sure, it looked nice and it sounded great, but then one day I visited an old friend of mine who owned another guitar that was *less than* one twelth of the price. And guess what? His cheapo guitar sounded better! (by a mile). It was fuller. It was warmer sounding. The sound was more rich and it had more sustain.

Sure enough, I eventually sold my Les Paul for a synth and I haven't looked back since.

My theory about the whole thing is that basically everyone wants to be like their favourite musical legends. They see guys like Jimi Hendrix on TV playing a Strat, or Jimmy Page playing a Les Paul and they think, "If I get a hold of that instrument then I can be like him".

Same with synths.

In the case of the Minimoog for example we have people like Kraftwerk, Jan Hammer, Vince Clarke, Gary Numan, Depeche Mode, Blondie, Rush, Keith Emerson and Herbie Hancock ALL as previous users.

I know it sounds totally childish, but I believe it boils down to people saying to themselves "I want to be like that" and THAT is why they buy them.

I suppose there is one other equally shallow factor that I've not mentioned yet and that is looks. If you see someone on stage with an old synth with wooden blocks on the side, it gives viewers a false impression of authenticity.


When someone buys an old synth, they probably expect a typical listener or audience member to have the following kind of thought process:

"Wow! What an amazingly unconforming guy! He uses an old synth! He is above commercialisation! He's too smart to fall for all the adverts for *new* gear. What a rebel! And WOW!!! If that's what he's playing now, he must've been playing the synth since he was knee height to a grasshopper! Woooooooooow! He must really know his stuff! Ooooooooh! He must really be a music expert! Oooooooooooh! ...etc"

And, of course, people who pay a fortune for old musical gear will often try to justify it by saying "Aaaaaah, but it SOUNDS better".

This is ridiculous- ESPECIALLY when we're dealing with the world of synths!

Within the last two years, technology has marched on at such a breakneck pace that we can now use sample packs or virtual instruments (and indeed modern hard synths!) to replicate pretty much any vintage synth sound that we want. We're talking perfect digital recreation here!

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth, and as usual I've blabbered on for too long.

Equalizer

Well, there's one "synth" that still has a strong following after 60 years and that's the Hammond organ. There are some pretty good facsimiles like the Korg XB3 (which I lust after) but there's something about a B3 which you just can't capture with modern technology. And people are still lugging their Hammonds and Leslies about in spit of the size and weight.

Bryan

well as long as there are people to spend the money and willing to buy old synthesizers. I have a felling the vintage gear will be around for a long time. The analog synths that I own, I never spent over $400.00. Even the Minimoog that I bought recently only cost $350.00 which included shipping. They way I see it is this. If you keep searching for what you want at a price you want chances are you will not find it. But if you stop looking, then usually will find what you want at the price you want. I didn't buy my vintage gear becuse somone famous owned on. I bought them becuse this was something I wanted to have personally. Although I have fallen prey to techno lust. It's not the equipment that makes the music sound good, it's the person who plays it. Uh! Bryan that's BX3 not XB3.

I'm wondering how many buy them for user Ctrl. boards, because they believe the keys feel better? I know a couple who have done just this. One said he also wanted a 76 key board!
Nobby

[This message has been edited by Nobby (edited 02-21-2003).]

In my opinion, there's a little bit of truth to all of the above. But, when the vintage synth market really took off in the late 80's and early 90's, the current synths at the time were pretty lame. Most of the synths in the studio at the college I go to are from this period, and I hate them all. For my projects, I usually used the samplers and softsynths. In another thread recently, the issue of synths from this dark age in electronic music not having resonant filters came up, and Nigel told us how at the time you simply couldn't make a digital resonant filter, and an analog one would be too expensive. Given the alternatives during this time, I could see why the popularity of vintage synths exploded.

In another studio on campus, we have an all analog room with all kinds of stuff, like a Korg MS20 and that quirky thing with the joystick and battleship-style pegs. I didn't really get into those, but the one synth with the sound that I absolutely adored was an old Arp 2500, a big as box full of various moduals. That is the only analog synth I'd actually splurge for if I had the money.

I have a question for Paul.

It's a very simple question and please note that I'm not putting any words into your mouth or twisting your arm into saying anything. The question is this...

Why did you buy your Minimoog?

Actually that is a very valid question and one I am happy to answer. Actually there are several reasons why. Frist was the price i paid for it $350.00 well below what most are being sold for today. Espically on Ebay. Second was I had played with one before, it belonged to a teacher of mine, when I was takeing a course in electronic music in High School. Also I have always been fascinated with synthesziers simmlar to the Moog espically the old modular moogs, like the one Wendy Carlos used for recording Switched on Bach. Plus I have wanted to own a modular moog synth, but figured this would be cheaper to own. Thrid, the simplicity of the Minimoog intriquied me quite a bit. Just a few knobs and switches some basic waveforms, no presets, no memories no cursed menues to weed through. Plus the number of digital synths that I have gone through that never seem to satisfy my needs. Of course a lot of digital synthesizers are complicated. I mean 10,000 sounds in a Korg Triton I mean really how many people use even half of them? (okay I may be exagerateing about 10,000 sounds, just trying to make a point).

As I stated eralier it is the simplicity of the Minimoog that really got me hooked to wanting too own one. That's the same reason I own an ARP AXXE and OMNI simple synths. How many of today's newere and more current gear are as simple and basic to use as the Minimoog. You show me one good digital synthesziers that is simple and easy to use like the Minimoog and I will buy it.

By the way you can get a lot of different sounds out of a Moog synth even if it had only one osscialtor. Look what Wendy Carlos and Tomita did with Moog Modular synths.

Hope this answers your question Equlaizer?

For me , it's not about snobbery . It's about experimentation and having all the controls in front of me . The new VA synths provide me with this as well . So I don't necessarily have to have the old gear . The Roland SH-32 , KORG MS-2000 , MicroKorg , Nord , Virus . I ignore the new MiniMoog Voyager because it's overpriced and I could care less about Bob Moogs signature on it . The Roland EF-303 has a 16 step analog sequencer on it that can drive other synthesizers . To me the sample playback stuff is boring and I don't like samples of acoustic instruments .

Oh I am not discounting the newer digital VA synths, far from it. The only reason I have older gear right now is that I can afford it. Well some of it there is still alot of vintage gear that costs the same as the new more current gear. I just don't have a tremendous amount of money to spend on current gear. I try to keep my spending limit at around $400.00. I would buy a Micro Korg however I have already spent the money on a Minimoog. Granted I don't care for the acousitc instruments on some of todays keyboards. When manufactures started adding other insturment sounds the synthesizers, they stoped being synthesizers and became electronic keybords. With the Advent of keybords like the JP8000, Nord Lead and Korg MS2000, with knobs and no acousitc sounding instruments synthesizers have comeback. Besides I am glad to see knobs are being put back on synthesizers. It's the fact that synthesizers have knobs and switches and that you have to twiddle them and tweak the sound that makes a syntheszier a unique instrumnet. When Yamaha introduced the DX7 in 1983, syntheszier stop being what they were and became more glorifed home keyboards (pun intended). So now that manufactuers like Roland, Korg and Clava (manufactures the Nord Lead, just in case someone does not know who makes the Nord Lead). Someday I will buy a VA synthesizer, once I have saved up enough money again. I try to limit my spending on keyboards, manily becuse I have bill's to pay and a Mortgage. So yes 800dv I am considering getting an MS2000, probably when Korg as most likely stoped produceing them, and the price has dropped considerably. $2,000.00 for the Minimoog Voayger, I'm not that desprate.

Well all the modeling algorithms that drive all the current soft synths are based on algorithms developed by software design companies. While they may approach the real thing they are NOT the real thing. Analog circuitry in synths reached its peak in the mid 80s and synths from this period got as good as analog synthesis got. If you want the sound of 80s synths then you should get a synth from this era. The biggest downside is maintaining these old synths as many parts to repair them will either be unavailable or expensive to obtain as they will often have to be pulled from other non working keyboards. The new MOOG Voyager is a good option as it features all the abilities of the original Mini MOOG and is again in production so maintenance is not really a problem.

Thank you Nigel! Well I own an ARP AXXE & OMNI and both are still in good working order. However the only problem I had with the Omni when I first bought it was dead. This is what happens when you buy a synths from a Pawn Shop that tells you it works fine. But soon got it fixed and working right. But soon after 2 keys went dead, turns out a contact wire under each key snapped off. Hard Luck! Well I am sure I will get them fixed at some point. As for my Axxe the only problem with it besides a few yellowed keys, and one that sitcks up a bit. Is the two sliders the knobs snaped off before I purcahsed it. Other then that I have had no problems. Though I did find out they don't like the cold. Live in my cousins basement for 2 years and both synths stopped working. That was until I moved into my 3rd floor condo, where the got warmed up and sure enough they work again. I always manage to keep them clean and turn them on and use them once in a while. As for the Minimoog I don't know just yet still waiting for it too be deliverd. But since I already own two vintage analog synths that I do take care of, plus they are not moved around. BTW I think $2,000 is a bit steap for an analog synth even if it is new like the Minimoog Voyager. ARP must have done something right at least with these two instruments. As for finding an 80's synth, well I can't seem to find the one I want, with knobs and no accousitc sounding instruments, just palin synth sounds like Sine, Triangel, Saw Tooth , Square and Pluse wave forms. As long as I take care of my old analog synths they should be fine.

You should perhaps look at something like a Roland Juno 106 which goes second hand for around $300. It is a good polysynth and has all the knobs and sliders built in, plus it has MIDI which is convenient for sequencing. I have a Roland JX8P with the PG800 controller ( needed for programming ) which was very cheap when I picked it up and can make some awesome sounds. I do like Roland's analog synths.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 02-23-2003).]

Juno-106 huh? Intereseting, I had an online tech friend tell me to get a Roland Juno-60, instead of the 106.

They Juno-60 sounds a little more buzzier and warm . There are slight differences inside , the JUNO-106 has more current microprocessors to deal with midi and it's programmable memory . The JUNO-106 is still a great synth though . The MiniMoog Voyager sells for $3500.00 for the signature series . That is way out of line and it is not worth it . His signature isn't going to make you're music any better , or make the instrument do any better . Most of the synthesizers in the past from Moog are absolute junk . The POLYMOOG , The Source , The MemoryMoog and the Constellation . I remember back in 1983 the music stores could not give away that cheap little Rogue synthesizer , and the MemoryMoog with it's unstable tuning , no midi , only six voices , and problems with it's microprocessor stopped selling completely . It had stiff compitition against reliable synthesizers like the JUNO-60 , JX-3P , DX-7 , and the Prophet 600 . The great thing about the new VA gear is that you get all the control and none of the problems . For me it's not about " sounding " analog . Quite frankly I could care less about the classic sound . I just want to creat electronic sounds , and NO acoustic samples . I have 77 analog synthesizers , but , I use my VA stuff now far more often . The VA gear have far more versatile arpeggiators , step sequencers , stable tuning , more waveforms , and more versatile filtering .

The only reason why I have a analog synths is not so much for palying with though that is part of it. Actually I like them for the asthetic value. Mor like nice dispaly pieces that can still be played with, which actually I do just to keep them maintianed. Also becuse to me theses are nice exzpmles of early electronic instuments. The real reason why a lot of theses early synths like the Memorymoog, the source and poly moog was do to the fact that ARP and Moog did not spend enough time on research and Devlopement, as well as testing. Plus they used a lot of cutting edege technology that was being produced and most of it was not tested before being put in to the synthesizers. However Moog did rectify the porblem of unstable oscillators in the Mini, with a new more stable oscillator board. Only Mini's with serial numbers greater than 10175 have this new board instaled. So finding a mini with a seiral numbers greater then 10175 will be alright too own. Any before that would be the ones with the problems of oscillator drift. Some of the ARP sytns tend to be better built espically the AXXE and OMNI and I own two early modles but latter serial numbers. Synhts with later serial numbers and latter models tend to far better then earlier ones. Same with the Sequential Prophet 5 the revision there is the best one to own becuse it has the least amount of problems. (Prophet 5 parts and ead prophet 5 are worth gold, amnily becasue finding parts for these is hard) Alhough Wine Country Productions carries parts but I don't know how much of there supply is left by now. As for the Japanese synths by KORG, Roland and Yamaha most are pretty good to own. Like the Poly-61, 800, and DW-8000 from Korg. The Polysix tends to have a problem with the internal battery leaking. The DW-6000 just stay away from. I have heard the Juno-60 is a good one to own as well as the 106 manily because of the DCO's inside. As for Yamaha I don't know too much they produce a few good ones like the CS-40M and the SK-20, & 30 though these are symphonic keyboards. Actually it was the Launch of the DX-7 in 1983 that put Yamaha on the fore front of Synth manufactureing. It's all digital has MIDI. So there is no problem with oscillator drift. I would however stay away from the CS-80. I read that many techs refuse to work on these becsue they are so un-reliable. So as far as early analog it all depends on which model and serial number synth you have, that will give you the least head aches. My Omni and AXXE still work with no internal problems. Still turn them on and work with them. As for my Minimoog I will have to wait and see. And a VA one well I am still trying to figure out which would be the best one to own. Personally I just have an obsession with synthesziers, I guess that is why I call myself a synthfreak.

When I was a kid, there was this rumour going around that someone had invented paragraphs. Crazy talk.

-tek

ha ha very funny tek. Are you trying to tell me something? Or just makeing a snide comment. he he

This has been a very interesting thread for me, cos unlike any other previous thread I can think of, this is one where I think I've actually made a complete U-turn as the thread has gone on.

I came into this thread thinking all vintage synth buyers were childish musical snobs, but I must admit, Pauls reasons for buying the Minimoog seem totally valid as far as I can make out.

Vintage synths can only increase in their value if looked after, which surely makes them a worthwhile buy in itself.

And, there's not doubt, the simplicity factor CANNOT be underplayed. I mean, with my own synth, I reckon I spend much more time reading my synth manual than I do actually playing the thing. Oh, and let me stress, I'm not some compugeek. The LAST thing I want to be doing with my time is sit reading a manual.

Thanks to this thread, I think I may just trade in my modern synth for a Juno 60!

How about that for a response?

By the way, does anyone know anything about Roland Juno 6 keyboards.

There's one on Ebay.co.uk going quite cheap and I was just wondering what the verdict was on them. So far I had only ever heard of 60's and 106's.

I will agree with you on mannuals being too complex to read equalizer. You almost need a masters degree in computer electronics to figure those things out (just kidding). I should know I owned a Roland JX-305 and a K5000s and both had rather thick manuals. My mannuals for my two ARP synths are not that thick either. And really you don't need a manual for either one.
As for the Juno 6 it's just like the Juno 60 just no program memories, and no MIDI as well. Only the 106 has MIDI. The Juno 6 sounds exactly like the 60, and is very easy to use and work with that you don't even need a manual for it. Manufactures make thick manuals becuse alot of todays electronic synthesizers and worksations are basically mini computers. Although I can figure my PC out better than I could my JX-305. Half the stuff in there is designed to make creating music easier. Yea Right! If you believe that I have some ocean front property in Nevada to sell you.
My problem with manufactures is makeing all these complex machines and hard to comprehend manuals to go with them. That's why the have manuals on Video Tape and/or DVD. Sounds to me like you would rather make music and try and read how your stinking synth works. Not that your synth stinks per'se. Any way, I try as much as I can to stay away from things like the Korg Triton, or the Yamaha Motiff or Rolands New V-Synth. I don't even want to see the manual for that one. What ever happened to the days when manuals were simple easy to follow steps. I have manual from a Poly-61 and 800 that are so easy to read and understand it's not funny.
Opps! I went off on a tangent again. Sorry! Here wait I have to say but you don't have to take my word for it. First get rid of all of your synths with big thick complicated manuals (obviously they are not doing you any good) Second buy the Juno 6 if it is priced reasonabely. Lokk you want a synth that you can work with, without looking at a manual then get the Juno-6. Leave those big expensive toys to the profesinoals to play with. They hire people to know the In's and Out's of there keyboards.
So just buy the Juno-6 and start maeking music.

Yes the Juno-6 is the same as the Juno-60 except the Juno-6 has no program memory . There are alot of analog snobbs out there , I admit back in the 80s and 90s , I was one of them .
Thanks to the VA stuff though , I ignore most of the analog gear . All of the synthesizers I bought from 1983 till around 2000 were analog . It took a while for the VA gear to make it here in Georgia , but now I'm in heaven again . Even the Clavia Electro gives me all the electric piano sounds I can want . No more tuning and working on a Rhodes or Wurlitzer . Anyone here ever spent time doing that ? What a pain in the ass !

The V-synth is still new so I can't say anything about that . The Triton , Trinity , Z-1 all have the same sound library . The only difference is the Triton samples . The Roland XV , JV , XP , and Fantom have the same sound libraries .
Yamaha S series and W series and the CS1X and CS2X have the same sound libraries .
This is why I don't bother with any of these machines , they are sample playback machines rehashing the same samples over and over again . They change the effects , add an arpeggiator and call it something else .
Since they are sample playback , there isn't really much else they can do .
The VA gear and analog gear offer a chance to make music rather than read manuals and scratch you're head wondering how to get 128 note polyphony out of the thing .
I remember when the Poly-61 came out , and then the POLY 800 . No one ever imagined a polyphonic programmable synthesizer could be so inexpensive .
The Prophet 5 was an innovative machine , the PolyMoog was not . The PolyMoog was an organ , not a synthesizer . The PolyMoog , Arp Omni , Arp Solina 4 , Crumar Orchestrator , Roland RS-202 , and Korg Poly Ensemble S are essentially organs .
They Use top octave divide down circuitry found in combo organs .
The PolyMoog had one good preset , the VOX HUMANA . The string sound on the ARP OMNI was far better than the PolyMoog . I would have to say the Freeman String Symphonizer , ARP SOLINA 4 , and Korg Lamda ES-50 are my favorite string machines .

There are a lot of very good, build them yourself modulars today as well, such as the MOTM and such. Also don't have to worry finding part for a while.

As for big manuals and such, it depends what you do. Physics in audio alone is enough to try and comprehend, let alone electronic attempts at emulating various things though various types of synthesis is another. Depending how far you want to go in understanding what is going on and what type of control you want over your instrument determines how deep into all of that you would like to go.

Depends on what floats your boat, but just like a guitar, if you want to master the instrument you have to study and practice. There is no way to make physics any easier to understand than it is. heck we still don't know how the human ear totally works.

With that in mind, there isn't anything wrong with know three chords and making great music with just that.

Creativity and the science of sound are two different topics. But for a synthesizer to offer exstensive controll and various synthesis options, such as a Kyma or a Kurzweil, then your gonna have a huge manual to explain how they implement Granular, FM, subtractive, or whatever else they offer. Before you make the most of them, your going have to have some idea how the pricipals work as well. Then your going need to apply them to something relativley standard like a two speaker stereo playback system. This can go on as much as you would like. Nothing a manufacturer can do to make the ideas simpler, they could just can make the UI managable.

I'm not concerned about physics, I was makeing a joke. About how complex the manuals for todays equipment are. Plus I don't have the patience to build a modualr one or the electronic know how.

If something works....don't fix it!!
Still playing and lovin' my T3

There you go!

Equalizer, the Juno-106 is a great synth. You should consider it as a reinforcement and not as a do-it-all instrument. It only has 6 voices, but you get beautiful strings out of it.

Download a track called 'Nine' by Autechre. It was made almost entirely on a 106. It's on a CD called 'Amber'(1994) if you want to go out and get it.

-tek

That's what I suggested that he do too, tek

Yeah, with the small exception that I didn't recommend it as the main or only instrument. I quess it's ok, if you just want to sit and play on a 6-voice synth, but it has its limits.

-tek

Yes, well I will agree with you on that tek. Don't use the Juno-6 as your main instrument. Add a few others. Like mabye a mono synth, or add a digtial one, or VA or even softeare. I read that it is best to have a varity of diiferent instruments. Espically a lot of cheap ones as oppsed to one expensive one.

Buy The Juno-6 keep one good digital synth if you have a VA that will do too, maybe even add a software synth. This will give you a wide varity of sounds.

There is one synthesizer that I have found to be a great one for ambient sounds , it's Absynth . It has the best ambient sound capabilities that I've heard so far . I do like Autechre's Amber CD .

I have heard that is a good one 800DV, I downloaded a Demo of the Absynth, and it dose sound cool. I have been considering buying a MIDI/USB controller keyboard so that I can try out all these software synths. Edirol makes a controller keyboard that has knobs on it, which is what I like and want. I had been put off by these software synthesizers with virtual knobs becuse no one made a controller keyboard with knobs, but now they do. Becuse playing the Absynth useing my mouse is not exactly the same as if I had a piano style keyboard. Don't get me wrong I still like having the hardware synths. But I figure this will allow me to have more current and newer sounds, with out spending a exorberent amount of money. Besides I can swing $200.00 for a controller keyboard. I figure if I want one with knobs may as well buy it.

REAKTOR by NI is quite powerful too

Soft synths are fantastic nowadays and getting better all the time. After all all the top synths today are digital and running soft operating systems so there is no reason a highend computer can't do as well if not better. By the time all music products such as synths and other keyboards make it into production the hardware has already been surpassed by current computer products hitting the market. But the unknown factor is not the synth software itself but the computer system and audio card that is being used to create the actual analog signal. Many computers suffer from electrical interference and noise and it takes a quiet system combined with a high quality audio card ( preferably with low latency drivers ) to compete with commercial synths and keyboards. Admittedly most computer musicians work entirely in the digital domain so electrical noise is not then an issue, but being able to play sounds live is an issue for many musicians.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 02-25-2003).]

I have not had the chance to check out Reaktor yet , but I will . I've heard alot of good things about Reaktor , so I will check into it . Luckily , I have no noise problems with my computer audio . The Vibra , Stella , and Gama 9000 are also great software synthesizers . Even the Model E is so close to the MiniMoog it's scary .

Frist off I would like to say that this is the most posts that I have recevied for any thread that I have posted here on the Synth Zone BBS. And I just Wanted to say thak you for continueing to post on this one topic.

hey 800dv where can I find a copy of the Minimoog Model E to download a Demo becuse I am interested in seeing what it sounds like.

Paul- For me, the amazing thing about this thread is not so much the length, but the fact that there's not been a major argument yet!

Nigel- I have a question for you. I was tempted to put this on another thread to grab your attention, but I'll try my luck here...

Ok, my question is basically this- what is the verdict on virtual (software) synths?

I mean, up till lately I had assumed that virtual synths DID pretty much replicate the sound of whatever synths they were trying to emulate.

Ok ok, there ARE certainly some rubbish virtual synths out there, but I had just assumed that the more credible ones like the FM7, or the Pro 52 DID succeed 100% in replicating the sounds from the original instruments that they were trying to recreate.

But, having read this thread I'm not so sure anymore.

So basically, if I was thinking of getting a Roland Juno (of some sort), would I be as well saving some money and getting hold of a good virtual synth instead??? (there are certainly a few out there which claim to replicate Junos, such as Reaktor for example)

Paul, I checked out that Edirol thing, but unfortunately it only has 32 or 49 keys depending on which model you go for.

I too have been on the lookout for an inexpensive midi controller keyboard with assignable knobs and/or sliders for ages. I cannot BELIEVE that nobody out there has manufactured one yet!!!

I think Evolution come closest to the mark so far with their MK-361C. However, at £180 I still think that it's a little bit overpriced.

There is no need for these keyboards to be expensive as far as I'm aware. They are simple products that use technologies that have been out there for years!

The demand for an inexpensive midi controller keyboard with assignable knobs/sliders is SKY HIGH! The first company who produce and sell these things cheaply will (quite rightly) make millions!

So far, there are a few really expensive ones and a few cheap and tacky ones (which are also a bit overpriced, I think).

The search for a decent midi controller keyboard goes on...

Good becuse I don't want any major arguements. I will tell you this I downloaded a demo version of NI's Absynth and was quiet impressed with it, even without having a keyboard controller, although having one would be helpfull.

I think you had asked me why I bought a Minimoog. The real reason is becuse of all those knobs and switches. I like being able to grap a knob and twist it physically. That's probably why I also like a lot of vintage gear, because of all those knobs. Of course with the Advent of instrumnets like the JP8000, Nord Lead's and the MS2000. There are newere synths with knobs once again. Even controller keyboards are now comming with knobs on them as well. So you can enjoy a lot of theses virtual synths even more.

Incedently I still say you should buy a Juno-6 while you have the oppertunity. But I would also consider getting a good Software synth, and buy a controller keyboard that has knobs. Because that's basiclly what makes people like me and a few others as well enjoy synthesizers.

BTW some of my eraliest toys had knobs on them of some sort. So that is the other reason why I like synths like the Minimoog.

Well 32 or 49 would be alright for me since I don't have a lot of desk space to put a 61 note keybaord on, and my Omni is sitting on my keybaord stand, in my living room.

I will agree with you on the fact the Edirol controller keyboards are a bit pricy, even at $200.00 here in the States. The cheapest one i have found was the Midiman Oxygen 8 but that is still $120.00 US. Other than that the only others are Novation's Bass Station. But those only have what 24 keys?


BTW: I see this thread has 41 posts and 2 pages now. WOW!

The Juno (106 atleast) has a very standard sound and is easily copied. I've made some string patches on my Nords, that sound exactly like the 106. Not that they're bad.

I remember reading an old Roland JV-1080 review, when it was new, and the reviewer thought the Juno string samples were the best in that box. New goundbreaking synths from the past.

-tek

Go to http://www.steinberg.net to check on a Model E demo . The Midi Man Oxygen 8 is the Most affordable controller with knobs that I know of - $139.99 .

Thanks 800dv I was just there, the only problem is the Demos they have are only sound demos. You can not download a demo copy of the Modle E to try out before you buy. Like you can with some of the soft synths at NI's website. Although NI's dose not have a copy of the Modle E anyways.

They may not have a demo . It's a VST instrument and requires a host program like Cubase or Logic Audio . Atleast there are some sound samples , sometimes Steinberg can be a bit stingy .

Okay so I would have to have Cubase in order to use the Model E. That's kind of a bummer, I prefer the soft synths like Absynth where you don't need another program to use it. I never understood this concept of need on particlaur software package like Cubase to run a synth program like the Model E.

Well I think what I will do now, is first wait for my Minimoog to arrive. Save some money on the side (sell some stuff on ebay). And then look into buying a controller keyboard, and some soft synths as well. I will have to hold off on buying an MS2000, that's not in my imediate future.

Equalizer, you mention soft synths replicating the sounds of analog synths. What they are doing is modeling analog circuitry. In a perfect world the replication would be 100% identical but that isn't always the case although synth modeling is still capable of producing some very impressive sounds using modeling algorithms based on analog components. FM7 from NI is a different case as FM is a digital algorithm that can be implemented exactly on a computer as it was on the original DX7 and following FM modules. There is no reason FM7 should sound any different from the DX7 using the same patch other than the quality of your soundcard. There is a big difference modeling digital synths versus analog synths. Digital synths can be replicated 100% accurately unlike analog synths.

But having said this I was recently knocked out by the sound of an Access Virus C which had plenty of analog character despite being modeled synthesis. I guess companies are refining and improving their modeling algorithms all the time. But the price of new modeled gear is still well in excess of the real thing so the choice is still clear for me. But that may change with time. For people composing on a PC then soft synths have already broken that price barrier. I use keyboards live though and the prospect of relying on a laptop for sound is not so appealing.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 02-25-2003).]

Hi!

It was very nice to read the analyses above.

And, I think that now - after a few years - digital modeling, software synths, sampling etc. have still not come to replace the original analog synths in studios. I for example did just acquire myself a couple of Oberheims, i.e., Matrix-1000s and Xpanders. I also would have liked to get a Matrix-12, if the prices of those quite few available would not have gone up to the skies! A comparison with Tyros-2 made me happy in any case: Even though the samples in Tyros are of best quality I have heard in a digital keyboard, the voice of Matrix-1000, for example, is so sweet and there are so many nyances possible - without mentioning the Xpander!

Although I'm not anymore a young guy, I have practically no earlier experience with analog synths, forgetting me building multivibrators as a young boy tens of years ago. But, I have experince with a few different types of digital and acoustic instruments. Laying on that I see that sometimes the sound of my Oberheims are dull like that of those old-days multivibrators, but half of the time they possess warmth, which in my opinion is missing in the digital world. Myth or not, that is how I hear it.

And, I really do love the physical real-time knobs! In the digital world, on the other hand, I hate using the mouse - because I've got two hands with five fingers each, which function at least 10 times better and more accurately than a mouse. In addition, I don't like staring a computer screen although I have to do that all days long. I certaily don't want to become a "Jimi Hendrix" nor any other idol. I'm too old for thinking that ridiculously. BUT, I do want to get authentic sounds, and I want to play and investigate what can be found in the old analog world.

I might soon buy a Korg Radias, though. But, I'm certainly not selling those old synths. I admit that wanting to own something special - be it a vintage synth or antique - is an important factor, which is making vintage synths more and more expensive as well as rare. And, I have a feeling that the present day's synths may not be functioning at all after 20 years or so, especially, if they relay on PC software. In addition, their microchips are so small and the circuits so thin that corrosion would ruin them much quicker than their older counterparts - unless they are packed air-tightly or made of a more durable material like gold, for example.

Have a nice vintage dream!

Regards,
Tiitu.

[This message has been edited by Tiitut (edited 10-30-2006).]

WOW! There has not been a reply to this thread in three years. Yet it still manages to blow my mind, that a thread I started three years ago, is still on here. I alawyas thought that after at least a year, Nigel would delete them from this BBS.

BTW: I used to be Paul-61, now I am analogcontrolfreak.

The other night, a young customer asked me where I got the antique guitar (a 52 ES 295). I had to tell him I bought it NEW!

Sadly, my B-3, Suitacse Rhodes, DX-7, 52 Tele, Whirlitzer piano, 63 Jazz bass and many others were instruments I bought new and just couldn't get rid of.

That comes from and old, sentimental pack-rat.


I LOVE em!

(Very Interesting Posts, by the way...thanks!).

Russ

This is a very good thread Paul and I'm glad you've posted it when you did. There aren't too many like it and it is good to see a thread about good old gear. Even good new gear. Seeing Nigel talk about a Virus C or Captain Russ post about keeping his old DX7 etc is exactly the things that made me come back to this forum. Talk about synths. That's what synthzone is all about for me.

I guess the threads are kept for as long as there is enough memory on Nigel's HD. Funny how just a couple of years ago the BBS was closed because of a hard disk failure. Yet all of our old posts are still here. More so, the forum rules permit us to reply to threads that were posted ages ago. Something that not too many forum administrators allow.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that this is still a great forum and there is a lot of cool discussion going on. I even don't mind the newbs posting about plugging their Microkorgs into a guitar amp or a refrigirator etc (Sorry just kidding there).

SZ lives on.
-ED-

I just finsihed reading this thread, and a lot has happened to me, in the past three years. One: I recently came to the realization, that I am not a musican, and can not really play. Basicaly I was forceing myslef to play, to justify owning a synth. Which I have learned is not a good thing, becuse you loose any creativity in the process. I have a never thread on here that goes into more detial. "Taking a Break from Electronic Music."

TWO: The Minmoog that I suposedly bought, was a scam. There was no Minimoog, I lost $350.00, unkowingly too help someone escape out of Isreal. That, was my second mistake, buying outside the US. Especially from the Middle East. Remember, if it sounds to good to be true, it probbably isn't.

Three: I recently bought my thrid Poly-61 and a K-61 controller keyboard. Both of which are not being used. The reason why I am not useing them, is not becuase they are bad keyboards, but that they were not what I wanted. Also I lost interest in Software synthesizers.

Equalizer, had asked me a serious question, back when I started this thread. "Why do you want a Minimoog?" There are sevral reason why I would like one. The Minmoog, has knobs and switches, and ever since I was young I have always like things that had knobs and switches. The minimoog, has no pre-programed sounds, nor a way of storeing your sounds. There is no dispaly, or hundreds of menues to scroll through, or endless button pushing. Plus when you make a mistake, sometimes the mistake produces, a sound that you were not acheiving. Also having had the oppertunity, to mess about with a Minimoog, fueld my fire, to owning my own. Sadly, that idea, has slipped out of my grasp. Becuse when these thing were at a price I could afford, I did not have a money. Manily becuse I was still in High School. However, when I finnaly became employed, and had the money to afford one, people started to rediscover them, and that started to drive the price back up. Almost to the point, of when they were new. Then a few years latter when Bob Moog got the use of his name back, and started Moog Muisc, again and made a new mini. I thought, I had a chance to by one. But alas, that never happend either, becuse the new mini was even more expensive then, the orignal. I even tried the Minimoog V, from Arturia, but it's not the same. At least not for me, since they progrmaed in presets, and you have to use a mouse to manipulate the sounds.

Snce then, I have come to realize, that I will most likely never own a Minimoog, becuse of the price. I will also sell off the Poly-61 and K-61, becuse they have no knobs, and have presets. I have however, considered buying a Synthesizers.com Modular system, becuse they pretty much have everything that I want in a synthesizer. That to me is what a syntheiszer should be. Of course the Minimoog fits in there as well, just slightly smaller, and no patch cords.



[This message has been edited by analogcontrolfreak (edited 10-30-2006).]

I'm still wondering why the Juno series is the reference point for everything. I mean, not that they sound bad or anything, but Roland had one thing in mind when they made them, and that was that they be CHEAP.

I'm a JX-3P man myself.

VA synths are okay, depending on which kind you get.

Roland VA synths have mp3 like resolution.
Nord is much better. Even their patches are more inspired.

But does VA sound analog? Absolutley not. I'm inclined to think VA has its own unique sound.

In other words, Analog synths can't sound like VA.

They both have their neat bits.

I plugged a pair of headphones into the prophet 10 and was playing some thick chords. Even with no effects, it was an orchestra.

Think about this. In a VA, you are relying on a DAC to be an oscillator, filter, lfo, everything. if there is a weak spot, thats where it is.

You know, just as I was reading the bit you wrote about the Juno I thought to myself:
"JX-3P!".

I miss mine. Sold it to put the money towards other gear and I'm stil kicking myself for having done so. It was a blast to program. No PWM, unison and no portamento but who gives a toss? It had plenty to offer and the sound may be didn't do for bass but it was a hell of a synth pad machine. A few of my early tracks ar basically written around JX-3P pad sounds. Nothing else could quite do the same thick, resonant and heavily chorused swells, sweeps etc.

Came across a used JX-8P and a JX-10 just a few days ago. Just not the same synths. Not sure if its the response, the envelopes but its as if something is seriously missing. It felt nearly as disappointing as playing a D-70 after using a D-50 for ten years. Its as if some of the synth you love is in there somewhere but the features you like and rely on just don't work the same way.

-ED-

[This message has been edited by 3351 (edited 10-31-2006).]

One of the points, I should have made was the growing trend of people buying not only analog synthesizers, but also early electric pianos, and organs. What amazes me, is that even though there are a lot of electronic/digital instruments, that recreate the sound of early electic instruments, and analog synthesizers. Many people still prefer analog to digtial.

I still own one dead Roland JX-8P for parts and a working JX-8P with a PG-800 programmer. I just love old synths. I still haven't heard any digital emulation that comes close to my JX-8P. Though I do like my Waldorf Pulse which is a great analog mono synth.

Hey I like old synths so much I have my own website called http://www.synthzone.com .... you may have heard of it.

It's pretty wild, to have one of my old posts, resurected after three years.

This forum can be sort of like a time capsule Paul. There was a thread a little while back where two people that had been discussing something back in 2000 picked up the discussion 6 years later. I guess sometimes time is frozen here. That is why I don't delete postings, as they can still be useful to some people that visit.

I always, thought that once people stopped posting on a particular thread, and the thread is no longer on the front page. That, that is it for the thread, and it's deleted. Guess I was wrong.

Besides being a memeber of this forum, I am also a member of four other forums. The Vintage Synth Explorer, TweakHeadz, Synthtopia and Piano World. Most of my time is spent between this and the VSE forum. Tweakhedz gets some traffic, but if your account is not kept active, Tweak will delete your account. Also I am never sure where to post on there, half the time anyway. Synthtopia, gets barely any traffic. The VSE mostly has ametures, and a lot of kids. I don't men those under twelve, but in High School and college.

I rarely spend anytime on the Piano World forum, only becuse I don't own a piano. I forgot to mention that, I am also memeber of the KEYBOARD group over on the Music Players Froum, but I don't go there much either. I used to be a member of both, the Moog Archives Froum as well as the Moog Music Froums, but seeing as how, I don't own a Moog Synth, there was no point in keeping a membership on either. Same goes for the Synthesizers.com Froum, since I don't own a Synthesizers.com modular.

Hell, I remember looking at this thread three years ago. I also cant believe that I am almost a ten year veteran of this site.

Cris, where have you been hiding...
Do you still have your K 2500 ?

Okay, I think I,m starting to understand the popularity of vintage gear. Especially analog synthesizers. Besides the unique sounds, they produce. They also have a lot of knobs and switches, to allow you to, manipulate the sound physically. Something which was lacking on most early digital synths. I'm not saying you could not, manipulate sounds on a digital synth. You just have to do a lot of button pushing, and scrolling through dozens of menues.

However, a lot of companies started to put knobs and switches onto their synths. Like Roland with the JD-800, which had sliders instead of knobs, and later the JP8000. Of course it was Clavia who produced a virtual analog synth, and they had put knobs back on.

The downside to these early analog synths, besides needing repair, or carefull handleing of. The price for these things, has shot up tremendously, subsiquintly, most people includeing myself can not afford to buy them. When analog synths fell out of favor in the 1980's I could have afforded to buy one, I just did not have a job or the money. Of cousre I was still in grade school. Bt the time I got a job and money, vintage synths, became popular again and that started to drive the price up. Of course, I still can not afford them. It's almost a "Catch-22".