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#405532 - 07/25/15 03:35 PM Arranger KB lessons, anyone?
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 5797
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Well yeah, if they were slightly more popular. There are piano lessons, organ lessons, trumpet lessons, etc., etc. etc. Each requires a different skill. Same can be said for getting the most out of an Arranger KB. In fact, it may require several skills, such as, arranging, and the ability to realistically simulate non-keyboard instruments on the keyboard. Understanding the role of the drummer is key and if you're not a drummer, how do you learn such things. Another needed skill is knowing which/what lead voice to play over a given background. I have heard some SZ performances lately where one, two, or ALL of these skills were missing. Songs played all the way through with ONE (horrible) lead voice consisting of multi-layered something or other (maybe calliope, strings, tuba, and ocarina, mixed together) played like a chorus several milliseconds off the beat. I didn't throw up but I did pass on dinner.

I don't know if you can actually teach timing because the player doesn't hear themselves being out of time. But for the other 98% of people who don't have this problem, it is a nightmarish listening experience. It is only exacerbated on a arranger keyboard with it's metronome/rhythm machine-like precision.

Luckily, most don't (and couldn't) play for pay but still manage to find long-suffering audiences to subject to megawatt 'performances'.

So, the question is, given the unique nature and capabilities of modern arranger keyboards, should MUSIC STORES, teaching studios, and private music teachers, provide arranger KB-specific instruction OR just continue to improve the technology but leave the poor customer to muddle through on his own to learn how to get the most out of these instruments.

Motorhome dealers provide driver training courses before they turn you loose with a $300k, 40ft, 35,000lb, 4-500hp, motorhome.
Beech, Cessna, and most small plane manufacturers have flight schools and safety courses for their specific planes.
Given the uniqueness and complexity of today's MOTL and TOTL keyboards, shouldn't Korg, Yamaha, Roland, and Ketron do the same?

Just asking.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#405533 - 07/25/15 04:28 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1233
Loc: United Kingdom
I'll bite Chas .

No special arranger keyboard lessons are necessary . If folks are struggling with timing then ordinary keyboard / piano lessons are not going to help so arranger lessons won't help either . If someone can't hear that certain lead instruments don't sound their best played as a chord throughout an entire song then it might be a struggle to teach them how to get the best out of these fabulous instruments However there is a valid argument for arranger keyboard lessons as many great musicians miss the opportunity of using an arranger because they don't know what they are capable of . Have a listen to this tutorial by Peter baartmans . I wish the whole session were available on dvd as I would surely like to hear his tips . http://youtu.be/-50DHkxtoAw

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#405534 - 07/25/15 05:27 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: spalding1968]
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4167
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Wow what a subject. Of course there should be keyboard arranger lessons. The beginners need it badly and so do the pros that get paid dollars for their performance.

There is never a time when we have arrived, we know it all. I certain musical keyboard talents and they are good, but there are areas where I help would be appreciated. Most people do not look at themselves objectively; they can hear when you run short but fail to hear their own errors. When I jumped off the band stand I did not want to know how good I was – my question was always, “Did you see any area that I could correct”. I did not ask that question of everyone.

The untalented player can be taught timing. How do I know this? I owned and operated a school of music with well over 400 students and 13 teachers. The only question I felt was important was, “Are you enjoying what you are doing”.

Those who are tone deaf – and they don’t know it, must read.
Lesson are for everyone, none of us have arrived.

Only my opinion, John C.

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#405553 - 07/25/15 10:39 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
Henni Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3161
Loc: South Africa
"Luckily, most don't (and couldn't) play for pay but still manage to find long-suffering audiences to subject to megawatt 'performances'."

Aaaah Chas my mate,

You have no idea how you offend by your "being the superior" yourself remarks. But then I've become accustomed to your personality by now. You come & go rather often over here, don't you? Some have nothing to contribute to their community apart from critsism. Some even see this as some sort of a "gift"

I would not allow myself to be insulted. We see the results of what we do almost daily. I've enriched both the Ketron & the Yamaha community with thousands of my midnight creations & they are being downloaded & used by others rather often. Some talk & some DO. I can say so much more, but I'd rather restrain myself before things get real ugly...

As for the right hand voices: I NEVER use them when we play live. I'm blessed with a wonderful, talented wife who sings. (Yeah, I KNOW you'll not like her singing also...). No need for me to impress anyone with any solo stuff, hence my poor choice of instruments.

One last thing - in what we do it's not about us in the least. We use our music only as a tool for some greater quest. But I'm sure you won't understand. Our audience is mostly not drunk when they hear us. I think for the intoxicated ANYTHING goes & it makes the artist esteem himself as being superior as is clearly demonstrated here.

"Dear Lord it's hard to be humble when you're PERFECT in every way..." comes to mind.

Henni
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#405555 - 07/26/15 12:24 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: Henni]
Saswick Offline
Member

Registered: 01/05/01
Posts: 860
Loc: Garstang, Preston, Lancashire,...
Talking lessons reminded me many many years ago I went for a few lessons on a Yamaha spinet organ and I learnt to play Moonlight Serenade. Taking my life in both hands cause I only use the keyboard as an accompaniment tool these days I decided to see if I could still remember it, played by ear on the Pa800.

It's a bit hesitant and a few chords missing but here goes: keys

Style: Serenade band.

https://app.box.com/s/zq5vtowh5ee3dj8k925nk4jfak8nu188

Makes a change from vocals.

Col

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#405557 - 07/26/15 02:07 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 4904
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Some have a natural musical ability, others would like to play music but feel they don’t have any skills, and there are those that play by ear (They hear a tune and can easily transpose it to the keyboard).

All can benefit from lessons, with the first learning how to put his musical ideas down, the second learning how music is made up and the third can learn how to commit his memory to hard copy.

A straight instrument (No backing features) is the most difficult learn, (but ultimately is the most satisfying) as everything has to be played by the one person. (Piano, Organ etc.)

An instrument with backing (Piano, Organ, Arranger etc.) can be very helpful in the learning process as it allows the player to sound good earlier in their learning curve, (Thus helping them to maintain interest) however, unfortunately a lot of them (Particularly if they only have one keyboard) tend to stay at this stage, rather than moving forward to find their full capabilities.

It is fairly easy to identify which is which, as the more experienced will develop their own style and use backing to just enhance their performance, whereas the others will sound pretty much the same as each other as they are effectively just playing along to a backing.

If you look at the more experienced musicians, they do not have a lot of backing tracks (Styles are just backings) as they prefer to stand out by being individual.

Depending where you are in the world will determine what teachings are available, with Asia being the top, as their parents push their youngsters to learn to play. (You will find many on YouTube that have fantastic playing skills, but ultimately it sounds cold as they are just playing the notes, rather than the music) Europe is also reasonably well supported as a lot of manufactures (Yamaha in particular) encourage it. (There are also professional exams available for those that are interested) The US on the other hand seems to be more limited with the most common probably being the Lowrey Organ teaching school. (Not much use if you don’t have a Lowrey though)

There are also many self-teaching books available (Many with a CD to show you how it should sound) which are a great help if you have no teachers local.

Most learners usually play a keyboard as if it is an organ, no matter what sound they are using, as they do not realise that to mimic an instrument requires more than playing the notes, and this is where a good teacher comes in.

If you understand how music is put together and how instruments work, then you will always be way ahead of those that don’t.

If you don’t have formal teaching in the early stages (Either via a teacher, DVD or books etc.) then you will develop bad habits which are very difficult to overcome at later stages.

There are always some people who just cannot play no matter what they do, and so usually move onto other things.

When new keyboards come out (Particularly Arranger Keyboards) you will soon see plenty on eBay as their owners find they cannot make it sound like the demonstrator did. (This is because the demonstrator is paid to show all the easy play features that will make the customer sound great, and miss out the fact that you still have to know about how music works to get that realistic sound)

There are many self-teaching information out there, so just do a Google search to find one that is suitable

Bill
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#405560 - 07/26/15 06:08 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: abacus]
Bachus Offline
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Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 6755
Arranger keyboard lessons used to be a big thing here in the Netherlands, they replaced the organ lessons from when home organs where pretty popular..

Tough over the last 10 years they are slowly dispearing, where piano lessons are still going strong.. However, there is a new thing surfacing, its called keyboard player, where you learn and play all kinds of keyboards, like piano, organ, synth and... Arranger, where arranger playing actually focusses on playing acoustic instruments realisticali on an arranger... And some basics to music production..but also playing in bands and such... Its very very diverse..

Its not a beginners course, but a course for mainly medium level piano trained students..
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#405562 - 07/26/15 06:39 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: Bachus]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 5797
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By: Bachus
Arranger keyboard lessons used to be a big thing here in the Netherlands, they replaced the organ lessons from when home organs where pretty popular..

Tough over the last 10 years they are slowly dispearing, where piano lessons are still going strong.. However, there is a new thing surfacing, its called keyboard player, where you learn and play all kinds of keyboards, like piano, organ, synth and... Arranger, where arranger playing actually focusses on playing acoustic instruments realisticali on an arranger... And some basics to music production..but also playing in bands and such... Its very very diverse..

Its not a beginners course, but a course for mainly medium level piano trained students..


Interesting! I wonder if the model you described is unique to the Netherlands or is it representative of most of Europe. Interesting too (but not surprising), is the fact that piano lessons seem to be the preferred way for most parents to introduce their kids to music. Any thoughts about why the waning interest in Arranger keyboard lessons? Does that reflect a waning interest in the instrument itself? Out of curiosity, how often do you see them featured in public venues there? Is it mostly in OMB settings....or?

chas
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#405564 - 07/26/15 06:57 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
124 Offline
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Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 2071
I'm not sure if it's outside of North America too, and it's not specifically for arranger players, but there's something called 'LoKnoPla'.

I found this blog on it and, if you scroll down to the Comments section, there's a quick explanation of the method. Sounds interesting.

http://dianemoserpianostudio.blogspot.ca/2011/11/life-of-piano-teacherpart-1-judith.html

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#405581 - 07/26/15 09:29 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
DonM Online   elvis
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15935
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
For whatever reasons, I've been approached a lot about giving arranger lessons. I've tried to help some friends get started, but so far none of them has really had the "want to" enough to do much with it.
It seems SO simple to me but when you start teaching someone you realize that maybe it isn't so simple, because so many different skills are involved--timing, learning chords, learning notes, music theory, instrument emulations, learning the operating system. . . on and on. There are so many levels of arranger use. I mostly play the styles and comp with right hand. You can also use sequences, multi-track your own recordings, make your own styles, songs, sounds, again, on and on.
Both my younger sons took a couple years at Yamaha music school and learned a little, but neither was interested in pursuing it. They do, or did at the time, offer an excellent program. But it takes desire and perseverance, as does anything worthwhile.
The wonderful thing about playing arrangers is that you can enjoy them and benefit from playing them at just about ANY level. You don't have to be great to make music with them. Music should be FUN and playing it is GOOD for you, at whatever level.
Years ago I thought I was pretty good. Now I go back and listen to some of it and it was not very good. Now I am my own worst critic. Most of us are very slow to criticize how the others sound and are satisfied to encourage them. I have always welcomed criticism because I use it to learn and try to get better. I've been fortunate to have friends who will say things like "The right hand is too loud, the vocal is too loud, the sax guy didn't take a breath, that is not the way that song was written, you're playing the wrong chords, etc." All chances to improve and much appreciated by me.
It's a deep subject and I'm ready for breakfast after another long night of entertaining rich folks from Texas!
God bless 'em though, they keep me from having to get a real job.
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#405587 - 07/26/15 09:43 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 5797
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
So you like criticism, eh? Okay. Those guitar licks of yours are way to realistic. We know you're doing something sneaky in there.

smile smile

chas
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#405593 - 07/26/15 09:59 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
DonM Online   elvis
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15935
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Originally Posted By: cgiles
So you like criticism, eh? Okay. Those guitar licks of yours are way to realistic. We know you're doing something sneaky in there.

smile smile

chas


I am a closet guitarist! smile After a few years playing at guitar, I realized I was never going to be very good, but it was pretty helpful in learning what they can do. It's easier on kb. The newer arrangers do a lot of stuff for you that it make it sound realistic. Sometimes too much. First instrument was trumpet, then bass, then organ, all useful experience. Trumpet was by far my best instrument until basketball removed a few teeth. Started trying to sing when the singer didn't show up one night and I wanted to still get paid.
Best thing about playing a real guitar was that it made it really easy to get girls. There are several really great guitarists around here, than when one walks in I start playing piano stuff and tell them to go get their axe out of the car. Sometimes they do and I get to learn some more of their stuff!
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#405597 - 07/26/15 10:04 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14520
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
A generalized course in the use of an arranger keyboard would likely be the most difficult course I could imagine teaching, and I was an instructor of Cardio-Pulmonary Medicine. Teaching someone how the heart, lungs and circulatory system functions is fairly easy when compared to teaching the ins and outs of an arranger keyboard's operating system and how each and every function works.

Then they must have the ability to play, which is quite subjective in itself. And, if they have mastered the ability to play, lets say a piano, next thing is learning how to emulate all the other instruments with some degree of proficiency. WOW! Now we're into many years of learning, and most folks really don't want to spend that much time learning how to please their spouses, let alone learn to play an arranger keyboard.

Over the years, I've always made it a point to learn as much about my keyboards as humanly possible, at least from a technical standpoint. This has been immensely beneficial during my time as an OMB entertainer, it has provided me with the ability to seamlessly flow from song to song, and not experience all the hiccups others using the same device tend to stumble upon. I have tried to impart that knowledge to them on this and other forums, and to some degree I have been successful.

Good topic, Chas,

Gary cool
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#405644 - 07/26/15 11:32 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: Henni]
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6202
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Henni I think you are totally over reacting to Chas's post. I think there is validity in some of his observations. Not sure why you took it so personally. But tell me what I obviously missed. His comments about learning about emulating non keyboard instruments is certainly valid.


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#405645 - 07/27/15 12:06 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
Henni Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3161
Loc: South Africa
Originally Posted By: Henni
...That's what I like about not ***playing for money***...Nothing testing your nerves as ***performing*** in the cold (atmosphere) where no one expects you & most don't want you...Note the new amp installed on top for the 18" Celestian bass bins. We now ***pack quite a punch***...


Originally Posted By: cgiles
Luckily, most don't (and couldn't) ***play for pay*** but still manage to find long-suffering audiences to subject to ***megawatt*** ***'performances'***.
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#405737 - 07/28/15 06:29 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
Tyrosman5
Unregistered


About timing:
This is one area that teachers have the most trouble with. It seems that one hears it or does not. It's also another area
where teachers "forget" about it and let students go on and
on skipping note values.

However, if someone loves to play music for their own enjoyment,then let em skip all they want to. Lloyd

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#405754 - 07/28/15 09:59 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: ]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 5797
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By: Tyrosman5
About timing:
This is one area that teachers have the most trouble with. It seems that one hears it or does not. It's also another area
where teachers "forget" about it and let students go on and
on skipping note values.

However, if someone loves to play music for their own enjoyment,then let em skip all they want to. Lloyd


Agree 100%. John C (bruno123) says "The untalented player can be taught timing". I agree with John on most things, but not this. I share YOUR view on this particular point.

On your other point, "if someone loves to play music for their own enjoyment,then let em skip all they want to", I also agree. I don't ever recall criticizing a home player or hobbyist. What they do with their own money and why and how they do it is nobody's business but theirs. BUT, once you 'take your act on the road' (deliberately put it in the public domain), you can be sure it's going to be critiqued, for good or bad, and if enough people say the same thing, there is probably some validity to it and you can choose to use it to improve some deficiencies in your performances (eloquently stated by DonM), or you can choose to continue to live in denial.

Synthzone is certainly one of the kinder boards. The people here are generally reluctant to point out negatives in a performance, so when they do, you should probably sit up and take notice.

chas
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#405758 - 07/28/15 11:28 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
tony mads usa Online   cool2
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 13221
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
I for one would certainly benefit from AKB lessons - instrument emulation, EQ, compression, organ registrations, are just a few things I need to know more about ...
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t. cool

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#405760 - 07/28/15 12:04 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
DonM Online   elvis
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15935
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
I thought that was the whole idea behind such a forum, that is, to exchange ideas to help one another increase our knowledge and understanding of arrangers. I might know something about one area that you don't, and you might know something about another area that I don't. As a result we both learn something.
I'm a member of one forum that exists primarily for posting of arranger recordings the members have made. In your profile you choose which preference you want to display. "Positive Criticism Welcomed" "I Am Looking For Words Of Encouragement", or "Please Be Kind but Help Me".
Not a bad idea!
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DonM

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#405773 - 07/28/15 01:33 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
captain Russ Offline
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Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 6772
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
Thanks, NIGEL!

And Chas, you did right to just ignore the comment.


Russ

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#405795 - 07/28/15 10:01 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: captain Russ]
Henni Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3161
Loc: South Africa
Originally Posted By: captain Russ
Thanks, NIGEL!

And Chas, you did right to just ignore the comment.


Russ


Says the the same bunch who publicly slandered a gentleman like AJ not too long ago...

Stick to topic, refrain from personal insults & this would be an valuable topic. Don't expect me to do nothing when you insult me only to make your point. I don't insult you to make mine.
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#405847 - 07/29/15 02:00 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: Henni]
mirza Offline
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Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 1311
Loc: london,ontario.canada
Just to break some tension drink [img:center]https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hph...amp;oe=5659826C[/img]



Edited by mirza (07/29/15 02:08 PM)
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#405848 - 07/29/15 02:20 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
DonM Online   elvis
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15935
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
smile
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DonM

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#405856 - 07/29/15 04:14 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
travlin'easy Offline
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14520
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
rotf2
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#405861 - 07/29/15 05:31 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: travlin'easy]
tony mads usa Online   cool2
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 13221
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
... well, I've got the last two ... laugh2
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#405862 - 07/29/15 05:33 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
travlin'easy Offline
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14520
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Wonder how many you get for a sailing yacht? wink

Gary cool
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PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

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#405868 - 07/29/15 06:06 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: travlin'easy]
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4167
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417

I applied my guitar knowledge to my keyboard. Chords, progressions, chord substitution, and improvising came easy for me. The first thing I did was to play two octave scales in all keys, spending more time on the most used. I love having to solve so I did not have much of problem with the operating system

In my most active days I worked with Technics keyboards. I was part of a group of ten Technics keyboard players; I taught five of them the basics and some. Latter three of my friends passed away, they left me with their Kn7000 keyboards. I was honored.

My opinion:
Learning all about construction of chords, chord progressions, and chord substitutions should be a must for keyboard players. Melody seem to go from my head to my hand; “If you can whistle it you can find it on the keyboard”. That leaves the harmony – the chords. This does not help your singing, or the ability to feel the audience, or the inward excitement – but it can add a lot to your playing.

My selection of chords can control/effect a musician’s improvised soloing.

John C.

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#405875 - 07/29/15 07:29 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
Mark79100 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 1528
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: cgiles
The people here are generally reluctant to point out negatives in a performance,


Why is that?

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#405879 - 07/29/15 07:43 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
Mark79100 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 1528
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: cgiles
Luckily, most don't (and couldn't) play for pay but still manage to find long-suffering audiences to subject to megawatt 'performances'.


I was reminded of this standing there watching the local weekly Sam Ash talent show tonight in the store....open to any and all. I think the only requirement was that you don't know the first thing about music and even less about how to play music to an audience.

I think Chas just might qualify for the Donald Trump of the SynthZone at this point!

MARK

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#405883 - 07/29/15 09:58 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14520
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
smile
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PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

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#405886 - 07/29/15 11:32 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: travlin'easy]
Henni Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3161
Loc: South Africa
Seeing that some instigators keep on pushing the issue I had with this topic just for the fun of it, let me straighten the record also just for the fun of it.

Twice we took part in a music competition & twice we went through to the finals. One competition was from a well known radio station over here.

Less than a month ago we were invited to play & at an open air gathering for all the churches in our whole Southern coastal area. From all churches including their bands, we were chosen for this. These were mostly white churches, so don't lower the standards in your own opinion. After this event, we were invited to play on a regular basis for a church in the area.

So yes, even if my chord timing is not perfect & even if I have no clue on how to play instruments for real with my right hand (which I never do live in any case), I leave it for yourself to decide whether quoted remark is called for or not.

We play regularly at flea markets & often there are enquiries about purchasing CDs from us which we don't have of course. Some of our friends openly say that they are amazed that we have no CDs available.

Don't talk to me about the masses suffering to listen to our megawatt performances. You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about & neither are you qualified to comment on what we do unless you are doing same, which I doubt the instigators have the guts for in any case. It takes much more than musical talent alone...

And yes, as I've shown that part of the remark was directed at me personally & not to performers in general. Hence my stand on this. Too bad some just can't let go of their sarcasm for this could have been a good & valuable topic.

Henni
_________________________
Make sure you'll fly forever!

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#405913 - 07/30/15 08:23 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1233
Loc: United Kingdom
Sorry Henni but you are going to have to explain the comment about the relevance of white churches and lowering of standards . Where I come from that can lead to all kinds of racist undertones that I hope you did not mean .

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#405916 - 07/30/15 08:29 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: spalding1968]
Henni Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3161
Loc: South Africa
We have many pics over here where we reach out in the rural areas in this country.

http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/349618/a_Little_about_us#Post349618

Most of those are still under developed, despite our new government. So many have those in mind when I talk about our involvement with churches. We are the VERY LAST people in this country who can be accused of racism as almost all of our outreaches & activities are directed towards those with a different skin color as ours! And to date we have over four thousand pics verifying this statement.

https://www.facebook.com/hennie.vanrooyen.127/photos_albums
_________________________
Make sure you'll fly forever!

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#405924 - 07/30/15 09:27 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: Henni]
mirza Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 1311
Loc: london,ontario.canada
That was pretty much very racist thing to say, wether you meant it or not. Than again according to the Bible it is perfectly fine to have slaves too. But, what do I know. taz
_________________________
MIKIMIKI

TYROS 5,BEHRINGER X32PRODUCER,YAMAHA DSR112,JBL PRX618s XLF,EV ZLX12p,SENNHEISER E945,....ETC

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#405927 - 07/30/15 09:35 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: mirza]
Henni Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3161
Loc: South Africa
Did you bother to have a look at the pics in the supplied link? Would you expect any arranger players amongst those? We know, as we go there often. They are not less qualified than us, but they mostly are less equipped which does not expose them to the same experience. Those who know me & what we do will understand EXACTLY what I meant.

We have MANY mega black churches over here also. They are not behind in any way or form, but they are in the bigger towns where we do not operate in at all. I do not speak for them.

I think I've made my point, so can we move on please... Only a fool & a stubborn one at that will look at our pics & accuse me of any form of racism. We LIVE what we proclaim & what we believe, we do not merely talk about it.

Do NOT steer this topic towards the Bible. There was no hint in that direction at all & we all know the outcome of such a topic.

Just for the record: I change "These were mostly white churches, so don't lower the standards in your own opinion." to
"These were mostly larger, more sophisticated churches, so don't lower the standards in your own opinion." When I say "black" I actually mean "rural" instead as this is mostly our exposure to people who wear a black skin over here in our part of the world. We love black colored people & I think it shows. Most of our friends are black colored people. Point made!

Let's get back to topic now if you please. No more need for sarcasm.
_________________________
Make sure you'll fly forever!

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#405929 - 07/30/15 10:18 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
mirza Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 1311
Loc: london,ontario.canada
I just commented on what you said.I didn't mean to implement any kind of attack on you.What you said was as racist as it can be.You probably didn't mean it that way.
And sorry for bringing The Bible in the picture. At least Bible has nothing to do with racism or slavery. You know I like to tickle a little bit.

Back to the topic.I am pretty much against teaching kids right away to play arrangers.Everyone should learn more about music and playing actual instrument like piano or simply any keyboard without too many buttons and styles to distract you from learning to play an instrument.
_________________________
MIKIMIKI

TYROS 5,BEHRINGER X32PRODUCER,YAMAHA DSR112,JBL PRX618s XLF,EV ZLX12p,SENNHEISER E945,....ETC

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#405949 - 07/30/15 02:24 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: mirza]
captain Russ Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 6772
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
"Even if my chord timing is not perfect and even if I have no clue how to play instruments for real with my right hand...."

WHAT?


Russ


Edited by captain Russ (07/30/15 02:37 PM)

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#405952 - 07/30/15 03:23 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: Henni]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 5797
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By: Henni

So yes, even if my chord timing is not perfect & even if I have no clue on how to play instruments for real with my right hand....


But isn't that the very essence of Arranger keyboard playing? And if that's true, how would changing to a Tyros 5 (a self-admitted financial hardship) change anything? Wouldn't it be better (and certainly cheaper) to work on those deficiencies and apply that to the MOTL and TOTL arrangers (which you were raving about just a few short weeks ago) that you already own? Of course it's YOUR money, soooo.

On the other matter, as a "black, colored person", I don't sense any racial animosity at all from you, just clueless about phrasing that most of the rest of the world has moved past several decades ago. I support your ACTIONS in feeding the poor if not the motivation behind it. I too, am very active in a food program for poor folks in the inner city through a program called Hosea Feed the Hungry. However, our food comes with no strings attached. I think everyone should be able to find his own way to 'spiritual enlightenment' without outside help. But that's just me. Good luck on your musical journey.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#405956 - 07/30/15 04:21 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
DonM Online   elvis
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15935
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Chas, here is another black colored person. Guess which one is my son? smile
http://donmasonmusic.com/Rod%20Mason%20and%20Michael%20Jordan.jpg
_________________________
DonM

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#405957 - 07/30/15 04:35 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 5797
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Don, I've seen pictures of your son before and I still say his mother must have been Miss America smile smile. I'll bet he's glad he took after Mom smile.

chas

BTW, who's the White guy? smile smile
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#405958 - 07/30/15 04:50 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
DonM Online   elvis
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15935
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Not too many pix of both my boys together Chas!
I am very proud of Rod though. He still holds record in Europe for 11 3-pointers in one game.
https://www.espacioligaendesa.com/historia-del-baloncesto/interior/145/rod-mason

Unfortunately back trouble kept him out of the NBA except for brief stints, but he had a great career in Spain. The photo was when he was just out of college preparing for USA National Team, and helping Mike with his clinic. They still stay in touch.
He shot 44 percent from 3 point range in the USA games. http://archive.usab.com/mens/national/mtoa_1993.html
_________________________
DonM

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#405966 - 07/30/15 06:55 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
Henni Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3161
Loc: South Africa
Originally Posted By: cgiles
...how would changing to a Tyros 5 (a self-admitted financial hardship) change anything?...


I prefer the Tyros 5 because of:

1. The available styles
2. The Mega guitar voice technology
3. The human voices
4. More suitable for US (whatever it's called) music
5. Intros & endings

If I could have the above on what I have now, I would rave even more. it's a software requirement, not a hardware requirement. And it's possible, but unlikely.

Henni
_________________________
Make sure you'll fly forever!

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#405967 - 07/30/15 07:19 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 5797
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
DonM, you're a true renaissance man; talented, witty, good looki.., well, two out of three ain't bad smile smile.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#405969 - 07/30/15 07:36 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 5797
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Seriously though, folks. Why couldn't people like Gary, who probably knows as much about these boards as Yamaha itself, do clinics/workshops for all the old farts that buy these things and don't have a clue how to utilize even 30% of it's capabilities. In fact, I think that would be a perfect post-gigging career for a really qualified person (Gary, for instance, has a background in teaching AND knows the Yammy system inside and out). They should advertise monthly workshops held either in their own homes or in a cooperative music store. I'm betting it would work in the right location. Look how far people are willing to go for one of AJ's workshop/clinics. And that's for the 4th most popular AKB; think what it would be for the no. 1. Just a thought.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#405970 - 07/30/15 07:56 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
DonM Online   elvis
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15935
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
And a great thought at that. For many years Gary has spent countless thousands of hours of his time on the phone, helping anyone and everyone, around the world, who might ask. It would be a natural and welcome transition.
Maybe we could form a partnership because I want in on it too!
_________________________
DonM

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#405974 - 07/30/15 08:58 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
btweengigs Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 2112
Loc: Florida, USA
It would be the perfect outlet for Gary. I am the beneficiary of many phone calls back and forth with Gary. I even called him from a job once when I had a glitch I couldn't figure out. As a result of learning so much about the Yamaha OS I was asked by three people who had purchased different Yammies if I could teach them how to navigate the OS. I told them I couldn't teach them to play, but if they already knew chord patterns, played by ear or could read, I could help them learn the OS and put it all together to play songs using styles, registrations, and the basic features they needed to make music. One had a PSR 3000, another on an S950. Both got the hang of it and have been enjoying their keyboards.

A third candidate was not successful. She was a real (and very accomplished) pianist but could not get the concept of holding chords in the left hand to guide the styles. She was very good at playing Stride Piano and just couldn't get the hang of an arranger.

I can't imagine trying to teach multiple students simultaneously as in a workshop....but one-on-one has proven very successful with my two very dedicated students (both over 65). I limited each lesson to 1-hour and concentrated on just 1, sometimes 2 features. Any more than that seemed to cause confusion. It takes patience and a lot of repetition but its very rewarding to watch their progress and the joy they get from their instruments. Oh....and I made a few bucks doing it.

Eddie

PS....Over the years I have had help from a number of SZ members....DonM, DNJ most notably.

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#405982 - 07/31/15 04:26 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 40787
Gary just wants to Sail & drink Green Coconut Margaritas when retired. I doubt he wants to be bothered
with phone calls, questions, and problems all day long.


Edited by Dnj (07/31/15 04:27 AM)

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#405983 - 07/31/15 04:39 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: Dnj]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 5797
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By: Dnj
Gary just wants to Sail & drink Green Coconut Margaritas when retired. I doubt he wants to be bothered
with phone calls, questions, and problems all day long.


Geez, it's a good thing you know what Gary wants. First of all, I said "people LIKE Gary". Given his long history of (seeming to enjoy) helping people, why would that change just because his back no longer wanted to schlepp heavy equipment around every day? Don't presume to always know what other people want. Besides, it was just an idea/suggestion.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#405984 - 07/31/15 04:59 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 40787
Gary may change his mind which I doubt if Yamaha put him on a
6 figure salary cool2 ....personally I'd rather be sailing & partying down south myself too.

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#405997 - 07/31/15 07:33 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
Bill Lewis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 1943
Loc: Bluffton/Hilton Head SC USA
I'm too lazy to read this whole thread because I think it went off topic into music lessons instead of technical lessons for arrangers. I said this a while back when I got my BK9. I wish the companies would include some DVD's of an expert running through all the things their Arranger can do and how to do it. I bet it would boost sales if people knew how much an Arranger is capable of and it wouldn't cost the companies much at all to produce. Better then the manuals.
Right now I would pay someone if they could show me how to link my IPAD to my BK9 so it would go to the correct Style or SMF as I choose songs in UnRealbook. I'm pretty sure it can be done.
_________________________
Bill in SC --- Roland BK9 (2) Roland PK5 Pedals, Roland FP90, Roland CM30s, JBL Eon Ones (2) , EV mics, Apple iPad (2) Behringer DJ mixer

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#405998 - 07/31/15 08:06 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
124 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 2071
I have to wonder if manufacturers would even bother issuing DVD's given the amount of stuff available with a few clicks around the web.

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#405999 - 07/31/15 08:15 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: 124]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 40787
Originally Posted By: 124
I have to wonder if manufacturers would even bother issuing DVD's given the amount of stuff available with a few clicks around the web.


KORG is about the best with YOU TUBE instructional videos showing all features for their arranger KB's clap

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#406000 - 07/31/15 08:16 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: 124]
Bill Lewis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 1943
Loc: Bluffton/Hilton Head SC USA
Originally Posted By: 124
I have to wonder if manufacturers would even bother issuing DVD's given the amount of stuff available with a few clicks around the web.


Loads of demo videos with experst playing but I've seen nothing of any instructional value on how to use the functions of the BK9.
Please put up a link if you know of any
_________________________
Bill in SC --- Roland BK9 (2) Roland PK5 Pedals, Roland FP90, Roland CM30s, JBL Eon Ones (2) , EV mics, Apple iPad (2) Behringer DJ mixer

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#406001 - 07/31/15 08:21 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14520
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Well, as much as I enjoy helping folks over these many, many years, I know that I will continue to do so as long as I physically and mentally can. However, much of the upcoming years will be spent aboard the boat, often sailing in locations where there is no internet or cellular telephone connection available unless I would be willing to shell out $1,000 a month for a marine satellite service, which I will not. I think that money would be better spent sailing to faraway places with strange sounding names. wink

Chas, if you can find your way to Hilton Head, SC, I hope to spend a few days there during my trip to the sunny south, visiting some friends that live aboard their 50-foot houseboat where I played music for their barefoot wedding. I'll burn some filet Mignon on my boat's gas grill and mix up a batch of green coconut Margarettas. Who knows, maybe you might enjoy sailing to the Bahamas on the old tub. wink

All the best,

Gary cool
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

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#406008 - 07/31/15 08:41 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: travlin'easy]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 40787
clap cool2 clap

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#406009 - 07/31/15 09:07 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: travlin'easy]
Bill Lewis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 1943
Loc: Bluffton/Hilton Head SC USA
[

Chas, if you can find your way to Hilton Head, SC, I hope to spend a few days there during my trip to the sunny south, visiting some friends that live aboard their 50-foot houseboat where I played music for their barefoot wedding. I'll burn some filet Mignon on my boat's gas grill and mix up a batch of green coconut Margarettas. Who knows, maybe you might enjoy sailing to the Bahamas on the old tub. wink

All the best,

Gary cool[/quote]

Gary

What a coincidence. We're moving to Hilton Head (Actually Bluffton) in a few weeks.
Don't know whats in store for me getting settled but who know maybe share a quick drink one day.
_________________________
Bill in SC --- Roland BK9 (2) Roland PK5 Pedals, Roland FP90, Roland CM30s, JBL Eon Ones (2) , EV mics, Apple iPad (2) Behringer DJ mixer

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#406010 - 07/31/15 09:17 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: Bill Lewis]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 40787
Originally Posted By: Bill Lewis
[

Chas, if you can find your way to Hilton Head, SC, I hope to spend a few days there during my trip to the sunny south, visiting some friends that live aboard their 50-foot houseboat where I played music for their barefoot wedding. I'll burn some filet Mignon on my boat's gas grill and mix up a batch of green coconut Margarettas. Who knows, maybe you might enjoy sailing to the Bahamas on the old tub. wink

All the best,

Gary cool


Gary

What a coincidence. We're moving to Hilton Head (Actually Bluffton) in a few weeks.
Don't know whats in store for me getting settled but who know maybe share a quick drink one day. [/quote]

Bill did you check out the music gig scene there in SC....
hope you get alot of work.

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#406011 - 07/31/15 09:29 AM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
Henni Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3161
Loc: South Africa
Here I have to complement AJ again for the excellent DVD tutorial on all the in depth stuff on the Audya. He sure sets the standards for others in so many things.
_________________________
Make sure you'll fly forever!

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#406027 - 07/31/15 01:07 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: travlin'easy]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 5797
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By: travlin'easy

Chas, if you can find your way to Hilton Head, SC, I hope to spend a few days there during my trip to the sunny south...


Certainly a possibility Gary, as I have friends who have vacation homes there (as we once did). I'm usually there on the major holidays as that's when my friends are there. My friend just sold his old house (for 1.8M) ostensibly to downsize but his new pad seems to be even more lavish (can't take it with you, I guess), so we're going down (across?) to check out their new digs. This is their vacation home; actually their primary home in Hockessin, DE is quite modest (relatively).

See you on the road.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#406035 - 07/31/15 02:01 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: cgiles]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14520
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Looking forward to it, guys. Bill, I suspect there are lots and lots of music opportunities there, all of which are likely low paying, because it's a resort town. It has been my experience that the farther south you go along the east coast, the lower the pay. However, the competition is, in reality, not all that keen. Lots of have guitar will travel guys, most cannot sing very well, and they tend to play only one style of music. Very, very few arranger keyboard players down there, and after one night playing at a marina restaurant in Myrtle Beach, the owner wanted me to spend the winter and was willing to pay my rate, which was a real shocker. For nite clubs and restaurants, I was charging $100 per hour with a 3 hour minimum. In Baltimore's Little Italy, where a meal for 2 cost upwards of $200, they pay is $100 for 3 hours on weekdays and $150 for Friday and Saturday nights, and on Friday they want you to work 5 hours. Another great reason to play the NH circuit.

All the best,

Gary cool
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

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#406041 - 07/31/15 02:21 PM Re: Arranger KB lessons, anyone? [Re: Bill Lewis]
124 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 2071
Originally Posted By: Bill Lewis
Originally Posted By: 124
I have to wonder if manufacturers would even bother issuing DVD's given the amount of stuff available with a few clicks around the web.


Loads of demo videos with experst playing but I've seen nothing of any instructional value on how to use the functions of the BK9.
Please put up a link if you know of any

Hi Bill. I wish I could help, but as Donny noted, there's no shortage of Korg instructional videos and no doubt PSR Tutorial is loaded up for the Yammy guys. And as Henni said, AJ is working his butt off for the Ketron crowd.

I skimmed around for BK9 vids, but nothing doing re. instruction. I guess Roland are selling customers short in that area. Shame really, it's a fine board but Roland seem to have gone under a rock.


Edited by 124 (07/31/15 02:23 PM)

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