How can Yamaha improve this KB, the T4 is more versatile than an egg.

And Peter B perhaps the best demonstrator there is.

The same was said about the T2 and the T3, but improvements continued and the T4 was introduced, so there will definitely be a new TOTL Arranger from Yamaha, however we will have to wait and see whether they still call it a Tyros.

Remember: everybody has different needs, and while the T4 is good for some, it is not for others, hence there is no one best manufacture of Arranger keyboards.

Bill

Tony, I don't know if your aware just how massive this question is? Its not about Tyros 5, it affects the entire keyboard industry. Yamaha in particular (and the other companies who follow their lead) have messed up in a monumental manner and they do not know how to fix the problem

From what I understand Yamaha simply don't know where to go next. However they need the Tyros Keyboard as their entire product line is based on the R&D that goes into it, from the Motif right down to the little PSR's.

So, yes, there needs to be a new version. But its difficult for them as the Tyros ( the people, not the keyboard) who pay for the R&D are taking the big sleep en masse and so Yamaha have to find a new customer base. If they fail Yamaha's entire keyboard division is pretty much doomed within three or four years.

The ramifications of failure don't just include Yamaha. In four years time, the only people making keyboards will be the Chinese unknown brands at £39.99 (from Argos or ebay) and the specialist "cottage industry" manufacturers who produce only professional products for musicians.

The industry is on the edge of a ravine, and the next step or leap will either secure its safety or they will find themselves falling into oblivion. Personally I don't think Yamaha will make the right choice because its just too big for them to jump (must involve a complete education program).

Technics took the easy option and just threw in the towel. They knew exactly what was coming and got out while they were ahead. Roland are getting the message and have been making a slow withdrawal. Korg are hedging their bets and Ketron are not affected; although a few instruments sell to home users, their bread and butter is the professional users.

TWD,

The end of the arranger as we know it is nigh, I don't think you have pleased anyone today, try again tomorrow, looks like back to Ketron or Korg for me, I will wait to the Euro is flat on it's ass... Korg Pa3x £39.50...

Tony

TWD says

"I can only please one person per day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good, either."

Yes, there will be another TOTL arranger...no one can really say if it will be another Tyros, as in Tyros5.

When the first Tyros was introduced, people asked the very same thing..."How can Yamaha improve this keyboard?"

Well, improve it they did, as seen on subsequent Tyros models, and each new iteration sold exceptionally well, culminating in the Tyros4 which has allegedly sold in numbers that are higher than the first three combined.

I expect the next Yamaha TOTL will follow in much the same way, adding improvements both big and small, and staying within the parameters that have made their other arrangers so successful...easy to use operating system, lots of support ( both factory and eventually, third party) and a stunning sound that seems to please a great many people.

So, in spite of the predictable negative personal views from the usual naysayers, it is my own opinion, that Yamaha will continue to be one the leaders in arranger production and continue to satisfy the needs of those wanting one of the best instruments available.

Ian

PS...I feel as well, that the smaller companies with the inevitable smaller budgets, may eventually withdraw from TOTL arranger production...even Roland has bowed out of that category, and I wouldn't consider them a "small" company, but it takes big resources, and an extensive (and expensive) R & D department to compete at the higher levels.

For the last 25 years doom mongers on forums have been saying the organ market is about to expire, however while reduced it is still ticking along.

The same will eventually (If not in the near future) occur in the Arranger market, (Time moves on as new customers and new types of product appear) but like the organ market (Which according to the doom mongers should have been dead 25 years ago) they will continue to be around for quite some time.

Bill

'The usual naysayers' lol. At least you didn't need specialist spellcheck equipment for that insult

Anyway, its Sunday - traditionally there is nothing like a bit of "the end is nigh" to perk up the congregation is there?

I honestly do believe what i write above though - its not a stab at any particular manufacturer of home products as they all share responsibility for the colossal and shortsighted errors over the past years. There needs to be some serious rethinking if the keyboard industry is to survive. You must see it? Anyone with a few spare neurons should be able to work it out without too much prompting....particularly those whose employment is involved!

Ok, Yamaha can and will come up with some new software to make a T5 more exciting, but the fact remains (and it is a fact not an opinion), their customers are dropping by the wayside at an alarming rate and nobody is or has plans(except for one new company not yet known about) to introduce younger people to arrangers or organs in the west.

Bill..the organ industry is not ticking along, its just about gone (as has the maker of your username). Except for one or two specialist companies all the big manufacturers have pulled out and I know that those left are concerned for their businesses.

The 'Organ Shops' are no more in the Uk, we have maybe three or four shops nationally that still sell organs....and thats it. One of the last honest dealers (Dave Templing of Haven Keyboards) closed up for the last time a week or so ago.

There is no denying certain repetitive behavior patterns that happen here on good ole SZ.

I suppose anything is possible, within a certain time constraint, but, so far, the market seems very healthy for both Yamaha and Korg. In my neck of the woods, we do quite well with arrangers, but we also heavily promote and support them as well, which keeps users happy and me with a paycheck.

As far as "customers dropping by the wayside at an alarming rate", I have to disagree with you there...that has not been my experience, nor the experience of the other clinicians and also the dealers with who I am acquainted. My youngest first time buyers are usually in their late 30's and 40's (and range into the 70's), and it has been this way since I started working with arrangers, so, as long as there are 30 and 40 year olds, and we can keep their interest with new features, I suppose we will have repeat customers.

Lately, there has been an increase in younger buyers/users, seen in such SZ members as as Telmo and Joost, to name just two, and a quick look on YouTube shows quite a number of Tyros/PSR and Korg arrangers being played, and not all performers are seniors or old timers...many are quite young.

How long in the far future will it continue?

I would say no one can really give a definitive answer.

Ian

Bill, organs, particularly 'home' organs, often show up in discussions about 'arranger' keyboards. Some see them as the predecessors of the modern arranger, others see them as 'dinosaurs' played by our fathers and grandfathers, or ornate, expensive peices of furniture. But in truth, the organ, in any of it's many forms, has a MUCH richer history than any arranger keyboard. There are the monstrous pipe organs found only in the largest cathederals, giant theatre organs found in the largest theatres of the last century, reed organs, unique electro-mechanical instruments (Hammonds) classified as organs (but quite different from all the others, in concept and purpose), and of course the modern 'home' organ which shares many features with arranger keyboards (multi-voices and auto-accompaniment). But I think the REAL reason the home organ market continues to survive (even if feebly) is that psychologically, people still regard it as a REAL instrument, to be cherished and possibly even passed on to 'the kids'. I doubt if the average 'home organ' purchaser sits around 3 months after purchase wondering about or lusting after the next new model that hasn't even been announced yet.

I don't think the market for home organs will ever get back to where it was pre-80's, but I think that as long as the magnificent sounds of organs such as the one in the National Shrine where I went to undergraduate school (Catholic U), contrinue to ring in our subconscious, there will always be a small but continuing market for the home organ. The arranger, I'm not so sure.

chas

I started the thread because it beggars belief that the T4 could be improved, at lot said there wasn't that much difference between the T3 and T4, maybe the T5 will not be in the same mould at all and that might be a good things. The Organ market is well and truly dead Bill and for that matter the ones being produced are way out of most people's pockets. Anyway what do you think of Peter, he's got to be one of the best on the circuit. No falling out about this thread any of you, I think this is a good one for sensible discussion, I still like the Korg Pa3x it's build quality looks first class for such a small footprint. I went into our local KB shop last week and the owner is sure there will be a new Yami KB this year ??? lets party when it does, can't see anyone else with anything this year..

Well I can see my Sunday Sermon does not sit well with everyone...I'll put my sandwich board away before I end up a martyr

But Kid ye not...unless thy manufacturers do not repent and admit their sins (and start educating the young), they will be tossed unto the Valley of Gehenna where TOTL products will languish upon the heaps of ebay for under £300 until they disappear within the belly of Sheol (the local landfill to you and me).

Tony, Apart from the name “The Organ market is well and truly dead Bill” is word for word what was said 25 years ago, which proves your memory’s still well intact.

If Yamaha follows its usually 3 year cycle (The T4 was one of the few exceptions) this autumn (fall) should see the release of the 710/910 replacement, with the T4 replacement coming next autumn.

Personally I think manufactures will eventually produce a range of Arranger controllers (Similar to Midi Controllers) to which you will plug in your tablet (Giving you your screen and touch) then download the App for the instrument you require, this will significantly reduce R & D costs as they will only need to develop software rather than hardware. (If you’re not sure what tablets and apps are, ask the younger generation as they have taken to them like a duck to water) Also hardware add on for tablets and phones are also all the rage, so attaching it to an arranger controller and downloading the app will come as second nature to the younger generation.

NOTE: You will probably not be able to use any arranger software, as the hardware controllers will be coded to only accept the arranger controller manufactures software, so as to protect their market.

Bill

Hell TWD, you been to church this morning and straight into the knife drawer when you got back,heeeeeeeeee and don't be silly I know you are not as daft as you sound, I hold you in high regard of your views in the industry, your are probably part right.

Your old dhip Mate Tony

BTW hows Skudes Audya any news???

Bill,

I don't remember that, I just made it up this morning over my Kellogs...

as far as I can tell Skudes Audya had an identity crisis caused by installing a) some third party software loaded onto b) an incompatible hard drive, but lets not go into that here. Its all done and should be back on the road as soon as the delivery company see fit.

TWD,

Thanks for helping him out..


Tony

I think Yamaha can stand to shed some weight by reducing the 7 models of "entry level" portable keyboards up thru the psr 433. To me, they hurt their more professional reputation by offering these. I suppose they don't want to leave it all to Casio.

My friend is on the edge of his seat waiting for a T5 (or other designation)as he hesitates to buy a T4 to upgrade from his T2. The hope is that it has the features he wants (Korg does, but the sounds and familiarity of the Yamaha system/operation top this.)

I'm a bit surprised at the 10th anniversary T4; the price is prohibitive. Good thing it is a limited run and not filling up their warehouse. We might have to wait until they're gone..l like the black though.

I'll see Peter next month in Halifax...something new is on the go, I suspect.

Peter is an awesome player and demonstrator...certainly one of the best.

Ian

ask your self this?......will it make me play better?..

Here's your answer..

Accordion Lessons- Pete Barbutti

That's a funny clip Sparky.
Thx

When the keyboard industry fails, we will be left with nothing but our internal organs.

Beaky,

Your internal organs will have ceased to fuction long before the keyboard industry fails, my internals are failing now, but the externals work perfectly, except for the ears

Please miss...can I have Accordion Lessons?

Who the hell needs a 76 note KB with her around!

The OP is asking one question, but most buyers that already HAVE a reasonably recent arranger are asking themselves another...

Is the (at least) two grand or so I am going to have to pony up for the difference between selling my OLD Tyros in a very depressed market and buying a new one going to be worth it for the tiny handful of new voices, a few new styles, and precious little else?

In today's economy, I doubt many will answer 'yes'.

Tonewheel is very on point, IMO. And, in a dwindling economy, diminishing returns becomes a MUCH larger factor. The cost of upgrading stays high, while what one already has is ALREADY so good, it is usually considerably more than the average user (and some well above!) really honestly needs. So many Americans, Canadians and EU citizens have lost so much equity in their homes, honestly... do you think that several thousand for a few more voices and styles is going to be as attractive as it was when the bubble was booming and cash was flowing like wine?

Yamaha, and I believe the entire arranger industry has only one chance. You don't go chasing the customers you already HAVE (that's how the home organ industry destroyed itself). You find NEW ones. And where are these new customers? KIDS! Young players...

And the arranger is NEVER going to appeal to them without a major overhaul in capabilities and sound to reflect what is current TO THEM. And sad to say, it seems like the arranger industry is bending over backwards to make sure NOTHING contemporary gets put in an arranger. I have a nasty feeling they are just positioning themselves to go fight for the dwindling, aging current market. You can pretend that the home organ industry is healthy, but compare sales figures from the mid-70's to now. A pittance.

That's where we are heading, mark my words.

Nothing will change until all us baby boomers an d are music is ear and gone 20 to 40. Years

I can hear the echoes of the organists of the 70's saying exactly the same thing. But home organs were swept from the face of the earth by the early 80's.

Yamaha, Korg, Roland... even Ketron, watch out! History repeats itself. Evolve, or die.

Thomas, Lowery, Wurlitzer, Elka, even mighty Hammond.... all on respirators, with the relatives gathered by the bedside. Bet they wished they had got into synths properly at the right time!

I wonder what Yamaha's arranger division (and the rest) will be saying they had wished they had got into in a few years?

Diki,

I bet if you put a 10 min Power Point presentation to all of them on where they all went wrong, how they could fix things and assist them in getting to where they need to be, you could have a big house in Italy, Fran could bring a few girls over now and then.... BTW don't take the G70 to Italy unless it's going in a museum

Judging by his emoticons, Tony gets a real kick out of his own humor. Keep those zingers coming Tony, I enjoy them too.

chas

Chas,

I don't really, I like others to have a good laugh, some do some don't, there is a lot to laugh at the moment at least until a new arranger comes out, then it's all dome and gloom again. If only Diki would get a scrap of paper draw up the perfect WS/ARR, do the PCB circuit boards, write the firmware, plan the company sales strategy and issue it to DoM,Ketron,Korg,Roland and Yamaha sit back and wait for the highest bidder, we will never get a decent product.

While most current users of arrangers are willing to be led by their noses and pocketbooks with their eyes shut by the arranger industry, happy to pay an ever escalating price for equipment of ever less increased capabilities, the arranger industry has no NEED to change.

The problem always comes when someone ELSE comes out with the arranger killer, and they are unwilling to face the future and adapt.

This is what killed home organs. Lowery weren't interested in synths, and didn't want to give up making $10,000 behemoths even when it was obvious no-one wanted to play them any more. Korg, Roland, Moog, ARP... none of these came form a heavy home organ background. They were the future.

But writing a white paper will never solve an issue that is denied by the very people it will most affect. In the boardroom, all pretense of working to promote a company's long-term growth has disappeared in the corporate culture of short term stock gains and a revolving door of uninvolved boards just doing what it takes to make their golden parachute as large as it can be, and to hell with the consequences, and in the home, well, the home organ players never WERE exactly crying out for synths, happy as sheep to the slaughterhouse that no-one could ever POSSIBLY need more than they currently have and that the scene would NEVER change!

But the change is coming. We have an almost uncrossable line with the younger generation that their music is almost unplayable on our equipment, and ours is almost unplayable on theirs. Sooner or later, some smart company is going to figure out that the money is in making something that does BOTH.

And then not screwing it up by doing both half-a$$ed!

The only arranger to be able to cross the divide is the Audya.

Because it has broken free of the restraints of midi drum kits, uses streaming technology and live audio, in the hands of the right producer and with additional loops and samples (like Sokrates great vintage synths - perfect for electro-pop) it is capable of producing anything currently in the charts; Ke$ha, Lady Gaga, LMFAO, Kylie, Rihanna, David Guetta, Adam Lambert, Katy Perry, Pitbull, Selena Gomez, The Black Eyed Peas, Usher....etc..etc. Any of the stuff recorded by these people can be replicated, but the problem is..who is going to perform these songs?? There are hardly any people young enough to be interested that have the ability to pull it off and those older have neither the inclination or knowledge of current chart material..plus they are gonna look a bit odd trying to perform. I am 43 and I wouldn't do it unless I had a 20 year old vocalist with me.

Making something that does both is not enough...it all comes back to educating younger people into the field.

But then....how do they afford it? A new live style and groove for the Audya can cost up to $20,000 to produce from scratch taking into account all of the people and gear involved.

If Ketron would make the tools for producing new groove styles easy to operate (think Ableton Live easy, or Garage Band), then I would expect a huge explosion in styles as the current crop of groove libraries available for PC get ported.

That's the issue, I think. Ketron don't really need to go into a studio with live players and produce live styles any more. That work has already been done, with MANY highly detailed (far more chord choices and strum alternatives than any Ketron factory style) VSTi programs out there.

But spend $20,000 on developing easy to use PC tools to convert these audio loops into the sliced, proprietary format that the Audya uses, and the users will do it for themselves. $20k one time, or $20k for each style? Obvious choice, really...

But the Audya needs a re-vamp. It's current architecture is obviously incapable of streaming enough at speeds that are usable, which is why it is crippled when used for polyphonic, chordal material. Sure, slice a drum groove up, and that's all it needs. But a guitar pattern is not only the rhythm slices, but the chord choices and the transitions...

Audya need to look closely at the Korg Kronos, and leverage the high speed RAM and SSHD streaming technology that make it possible for the Kronos to stream instead of using sample ROM. And, one of those isn't exactly up there in Fairlight (or Audya!) price territory. Only a few hundred more than a MoXF, if truth be told.

But Ketron have shot themselves in the foot, releasing the Audya as an unfinished 'work in progress' without the MOST important tool an arranger can have. An EASY style creator system. If styles are going to cost the factory five figures to produce EACH, no-one in their right mind is going to consider it unless it ALREADY does exactly what you want. And what has EVER done that (unless your needs are pretty basic)?

And no busy contemporary producer or artist is going to use it, if the tools for making new styles are so clunky, so unintuitive, and so inelegant that they will probably be able to achieve the same result faster, better and with less hassle on a computer in the first place.

If Ketron fix these two things, they stand a chance. But seeing the multi-year gap between its release and the still crippled capabilities it has now, what hope can we really hold?

It's a small company, yes. But so were Korg, and Moog, and yes, even Roland when they started. But they made the right product at the right time, at the right price.