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#337405 - 01/25/12 11:59 AM New Roland BK 5 demo
Dnj Offline
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Registered: 09/21/00
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#337412 - 01/25/12 12:37 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
donpatt Offline
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Registered: 03/19/06
Posts: 465
Loc: Lufkin, TX.
Hey Donny, thnx for posting.

At the beginning he is using a vocal harmonizer! Do you know if it is external or included on the BK-5?? If on the BK-5 that's a definate plus.

Don P
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#337415 - 01/25/12 12:50 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: donpatt]
Dnj Offline
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Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
The Bk5 to my knowledge doesnt have a VH inside......I would assume since he's a ROLAND rep he is using the Roland VP-7.
Roland VP-7

Combined with the BK-5 would be a KILLER Rig for sure.
And another KOOL thing is it Vp-7 comes with the HEADSET Mic also.. Adrian Scott does a nice job on the demo..clap


Edited by Dnj (01/25/12 01:12 PM)

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#337420 - 01/25/12 01:09 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
musicforyourday Offline
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Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 733
Loc: So California, USA
I saw that demo Live at Namm it a pretty good unit fore the money , vp-7 on vocal harmony headset mic not included .
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#337424 - 01/25/12 01:26 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Finally! Someone who can really play is demoing this instrument.

I like what I hear.

Weak sounds would be the organ (at least the ones he played) and the rotary sim isn't very convincing.

The strings, pianos, electric pianos, brass, synths, are all very, very good!

The Sax, at least the one played, is disappointing, but for the price, this is one great sounding instrument.

AND...it has NORMAL SIZED KEYS!

Bravo!!!!

Missing an on-board harmonizer won't matter, as many (most) use outboard units, but the omission of a midi recorder (sequencer) is unforgivable in this day and age, especially with so many sound parts available for overdubbing etc.

Impressive demo...impressive instrument...very impressive price.

Blows the itsy-bitsy teeny weeny KMA into the weeds, and yes, I know it costs more, but it sounds like it's worth the extra bit.

All my opinions.

Ian

PS...I can see Fran taking the loot from the sale of his KMA and putting it towards this little gem.
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#337426 - 01/25/12 01:54 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: ianmcnll]
FransN Offline
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Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Sounds like the GW 8


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#337427 - 01/25/12 01:59 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: FransN]
Dnj Offline
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Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Originally Posted By: FransN
Sounds like the GW 8




The style is close to the same but to my ears the Bk-5 sounds more fuller then the GW8....I hope this isn't a repackage? confused1

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#337428 - 01/25/12 02:19 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: Dnj
[quote=FransN]Sounds like the GW 8

The style is close to the same but to my ears the Bk-5 sounds more fuller then the GW8....I hope this isn't a repackage? confused1


If anyone can figure what the difference is between these two beasties, it's Fran.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#337440 - 01/25/12 03:31 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: musicforyourday]
Robbo Offline
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Registered: 07/31/08
Posts: 570
Loc: Ballarat, Victoria, Australia
Originally Posted By: musicforyourday
I saw that demo Live at Namm it a pretty good unit fore the money , vp-7 on vocal harmony headset mic not included .

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I think Roland is on a winner here, I hope that the time for the ever increasing cost to consumers for boards is going to come down to an affordable level where we can update on a more frequent basis. The sound was great certainly at the E80 standard, and nothing wrong with that. (I do wish someone had told the demoer to keep the head mic further away as it was distorted)

I liked it and at under $1k deffinately got possibilities,after all it's the performer that wins the audience over in the end, expensive kit, doesn't necesarilly mean better outcomes

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#337445 - 01/25/12 04:53 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
mirza Offline
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Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 1314
Loc: london,ontario.canada

Lets look at it this way..Under a $1000 instrument.Like Ian said too bad for no sequencer but still,it's made for live.Tyros 4 and Pa3x are in 4k Audya even more.Are they 4 times better than BK5..I think not.Roland misses some things in this unit but the prize is so low it doesn't really matter.Even these big guys miss things and they are 4x more.
Tyros 4 is missing whole synth engine.I am not saying it is bad, but we all know it's dumb down version in 4K instrument.Even midi set up is terrible.Any regular older synth has better one..Can you make your own SA voices? I don't think so..Drums are still so compressed it kills everything else for me..And I am talking about LIVE playing.
Pa3x has these things but it's OS is terrible to set up and too primitive.It should be simpler..Audya I don't even want to start what's missing.
And these are still at least 4x more money "professional instruments".
So I say BK5 should be a winner..I played with BK7m's styles and I love them.They are not better, but they are also not worse than T4 or PA3X.And still a lot cheaper.
At the end I will ad that I have Pa3x and T4..T4 will soon go.
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#337447 - 01/25/12 05:14 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: mirza]
Dnj Offline
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Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Originally Posted By: mirza

Lets look at it this way..Under a $1000 instrument.Like Ian said too bad for no sequencer but still,it's made for live.Tyros 4 and Pa3x are in 4k Audya even more.Are they 4 times better than BK5..I think not.Roland misses some things in this unit but the prize is so low it doesn't really matter.Even these big guys miss things and they are 4x more.
Tyros 4 is missing whole synth engine.I am not saying it is bad, but we all know it's dumb down version in 4K instrument.Even midi set up is terrible.Any regular older synth has better one..Can you make your own SA voices? I don't think so..Drums are still so compressed it kills everything else for me..And I am talking about LIVE playing.
Pa3x has these things but it's OS is terrible to set up and too primitive.It should be simpler..Audya I don't even want to start what's missing.
And these are still at least 4x more money "professional instruments".
So I say BK5 should be a winner..I played with BK7m's styles and I love them.They are not better, but they are also not worse than T4 or PA3X.And still a lot cheaper.
At the end I will ad that I have Pa3x and T4..T4 will soon go.


Miki....Awesome post and So true, I would even offer the KMA at it price point into comparison as to what your saying. clap Pros have different needs & less fluff. Lots of food for thought in what your saying....
Thanx for the wake up to reality!!

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#337450 - 01/25/12 05:25 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
mirza Offline
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Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 1314
Loc: london,ontario.canada

Hi Dnj.

I still like these instrumet,but if we are talking about money than it's different for me what is good and what is bad.
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#337451 - 01/25/12 05:30 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I don't know guys...I'm pretty sure my Tyros4 blows away the BK-5 in pretty well every category.

Is it worth 4X more?

It is to my ears, and to my fingers. I know what I want to hear coming out of my speakers, and it isn't the Roland BK-5, as good as it is for the little money it costs.

I think most users of Korg PA3X feel much the same way, but I can't speak for them...only for me. I do however, think the PA3X's allegedly difficult OS is worth learning, as the instrument is deep and vast and will give the user back as much as they put into it.

When I play those great SA/SA2 voices, and hear those really versatile and detailed mega-voiced styles, I know I've made the right decision, and my hard earned money was well spent.

A BK-5 will never give me anywhere near what I get from my Tyros4...and if it did, then bravo for Roland and shame on Yamaha. But that's not the case.

However, it still is bravo for Roland in that they made such a fine instrument at a pretty good price point, but I'm afraid these ears and fingers (and my audience) are destined for better things with the Tyros4.

Again...my opinion.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#337453 - 01/25/12 05:41 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: mirza]
FransN Offline
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Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Is the BK 5 really cheap? I don't think so. It has no sequencer, no touch screen, no sampler, no sound editing, no weighted keys etc. The Korg pa500 is cheaper and has all these things except weighted keys and sampler. The Yamaha psr s710 is almost the same price and does have an onboard sequencer as far as I know. Just my thinking.


Edited by FransN (01/25/12 05:47 PM)

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#337456 - 01/25/12 05:58 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Leaving off the midi sequencer was a very bad move, in my opinion.

Many people want to record their own SMF, and it would be nice if they could do it on the same instrument they were being played back on.

Yes it has an audio recorder...but you can't record more than one track, and it doesn't allow for recording left and right hand separately and/or overdubbing.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#337461 - 01/25/12 06:59 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: ianmcnll]
mirza Offline
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Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 1314
Loc: london,ontario.canada

I totally agree Ian.I don't think this would change anything in the price,maybe some.
But I still believe it is a good instrument for the money.
But, it's got one thing that every arranger should have and none of our Yamaha's don't.Full blown STYLE CREATOR.
Because that is one of the most important thing to have in ARRANGER which it is.
Yes,we can connect it to PC end edit,but if we are gonna do that we might as well opet Cubase,or Sonar or my favorite Studio One from Presonus.And that is a sequencer.
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#337462 - 01/25/12 07:29 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Yes, I agree...the BK-5 is a good instrument for the money.

I'm pretty content with the T4's style creator...it does what I need, and is very easy to use.

I suppose it's what you get used to, and I've got so many other pluses with the Yamaha, like tons of terrific third party styles and Yamaha's own excellent Premium styles.

I like the easy to use OS, the SA/SA2 sounds are killer and respond to real time control in a very intuitive way, the keyboard is super deluxe feeling and responsive...it's a "player's" more than a "tweaker's" instrument.

Voice editing on-board is basic, but extremely servicable...attack/decay/filtering...basic but very effective. It is good enough to "fix" any sounds that I want to personalize to suit my style, and I can always use the PC editor for anything major.

I like to play...it's number one for me...tweaking and fiddling...not so much.

That's what drew me to Yamaha arrangers in the first place.

I was a die hard Roland E-series user for some time, but with the Yamaha PSR-8000, I finally felt Yamaha had a legitimate "professional" arranger that was a joy to play.

I still love the sound.

The BK-5 is a pretty darn good instrument for the money, but it can't hope to ever replace my Tyros4.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#337467 - 01/25/12 08:30 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: ianmcnll]
mirza Offline
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Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 1314
Loc: london,ontario.canada
That is what I am saying..I have T4 too.I will sell it because I think it is not made for professional.Sure you can use it as I have used it for live.
But for a professional instrument that cost an arm and a leg not to have simple stuff that I already said above is inexcusable.YAMAHA is dumbing us down by saying we don't need those things and guess what,we are helping them .In 4k and more instrument we should have those things without any exceptions.I am not comparing bk5 to T4.I am just saying it gives you much more for the money.
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#337472 - 01/25/12 11:05 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Nah, the Tyros4 still sounds far better than BK-5. It literally blows it away. No comparison.

Sound is what is most important to a professional, not features that they would hardly ever use, if at all.

I'm a professional...I've been playing pro since I was 15, and I'm 62 now.

Why would I want to play an inferior sounding instrument just to save a few bucks and get features that mean very little to me?

If you like the sound of BK-5 better than your Tyros4, then by all means get one.

Complaining about what the Tyros4 allegedly lacks is rather silly...you bought it!

If it is that much of a dumbed down instrument, why did you waste your money on it?

You personally, might gain one or two things that you would use, with a BK-5, but it is going to sound pretty lame compared to the mighty Tyros4; but, that may not matter all that much to you.

I'm a player first, and a tweaker a distant second...the Tyros4 is first, and foremost, a player's instrument...any pro who has one will tell you the same thing...it is a dream to play. It is an extremely expressive instrument.

I hope you do well with the BK-5, should you decide to get one.

Happy playing,

Ian

PS...Listen to music made by SZ members Telmo and Joost, and by Yamaha artists like Martin Harris and Peter Baartmans. Think a BK-5 will ever sound that good?




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#337475 - 01/25/12 11:36 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: ianmcnll]
jamman Offline
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Registered: 08/24/04
Posts: 666
Loc: City of Angels in the golden s...
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
Finally! Someone who can really play is demoing this instrument.

The Sax, at least the one played, is disappointing, but for the price



Compare with this for the sounds.

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#337477 - 01/25/12 11:54 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: jamman]
Tony Hughes Offline
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Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Very nice indeed Jam clap


Tony
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#337478 - 01/25/12 11:55 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
The S900 still sounds pretty darn good...

I believe you posted this one a while back...great sax at around 2:08.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3ndtpqaFpE&feature=related

I hope the sax we heard on the BK-5 isn't the only (or the best!) one....surely there must be more.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#337479 - 01/26/12 12:08 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: ianmcnll]
Tony Hughes Offline
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Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Glyn Madden,

Perhaps the best Yamaha man to-date, one hell of a nice guy, didn't pull faces like Martin Harris, hope he's taking it easy now. I have watch him play all the yamaha range the old US1 organ it was some tool heavy as hell, real wood dance2
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#337480 - 01/26/12 12:11 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
Tony Hughes Offline
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Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
In the right hands an old KB will do wonders:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA91lPvJYgo&feature=related


Tony
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#337481 - 01/26/12 12:37 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I almost forgot about that one, Tony...fantastic arrangement, video work, and, of course, the terrific playing.

Yes, the S910 is a chunk more money...but, you get the 16-track sequencer, AND the Audio to USB recorder (Wav), as well as excellent mega-voiced styles, SA sounds, tons of styles available, easy style editing...quite a bargain when you think of it!

It was my close second choice to the Tyros4...this video reminds me again why I was so impressed.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#337490 - 01/26/12 05:17 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
Stein67 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 195
I know I am like a broken record but I wish Yamaha would give some info regarding the "S950". With George hearing rumours of a release before the Summer NAMM show surely it would be beneficial for Yamaha to release some concrete info now in the face of a more than decent, and cheaper, new keyboard from Roland.

I know I would be quite happy with a S910 but I don't want to purchase a new one new with a new version only around the corner and while the BK5 has tweaked my interest I have a feeling I could regret buying new to then hear that Yamaha are releasing a stupendously good keyboard around the Ģ1500 mark.

Basically Yamaha aren't making it easy for me!! laugh

PS: The vid of Lord of the Dance using the S910 is excellent.


Edited by Stein67 (01/26/12 05:18 AM)

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#337501 - 01/26/12 07:39 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Stein67]
mirza Offline
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Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 1314
Loc: london,ontario.canada

Ian why are you so defensive when we talk about T4.I never said it's a bad instrument.It's a great instrument.I am just being objective.It lacks a lot of things 4k instrument should always have,whether you use it or not.Some will use it and some will not .
And I agree that 910 is great for the money.Too bad it's has no sampler.950 will fix that,I guess.
If we don't complain about these things Yamaha and the other guys will never improve them.They will still repack T3 into T4 and tell us this is the best there is, because we don't know better.
And about Joost and Telmo.It has nothing to do whether they play T4 or T7 or whatever.They will still sound good, because they are great musicians and it doesn't matter which one they play.
Remember it's just a tool,it has no feelings.We can talk bad about it with arguments it will not get hurt. smile
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#337513 - 01/26/12 09:42 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I'm not at all defensive about Tyros4...I'm just telling you how much I appreciate such a fantastic instrument, and how satisfied I am with the features it has...it wasn't designed for all arranger players, just a certain market, and it obviously is very successful as it allegedly has outsold both Tyros2 and Tyros3 combined.

I think the BK-5 is a marvellous instrument for the money, and sounds, to my ears, even better than Roland's own G-70 and E-80...that is an acheivement in itself.

It is too bad it has no on-board midi sequencer, something that is unforgivable with today's instruments. Even low end Casio have midi recorders.

But like anything else, I'm sure people will find workarounds, if they want the instrument enough.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#337516 - 01/26/12 10:47 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
And mirza, I completely agree about complaining and having improvements. We clinicians report what we get from the public at our clinics, and, I'm sure Yamaha looks in on the major forums to see what's up.

As for what actually gets on the next model...your guess is as good as mine?

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#337519 - 01/26/12 10:55 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: ianmcnll]
mirza Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 1314
Loc: london,ontario.canada
Totally agree..

Ian I believe you live in Canada just like me.
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#337522 - 01/26/12 11:19 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Yes, I am on the East Coast...Cape Breton Island.

I've been to Ontario many, many times, mainly to Yamaha Head Office in Scarborough for seminars and traing sessions.

Also have been to London once to visit a music dealer, but that was 20 years ago at least.

If you are ever down this neck of the woods, let me know.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#337551 - 01/26/12 05:24 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: mirza]
Machetero Offline
Member

Registered: 08/21/09
Posts: 359
Loc: Tampa, Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: mirza

Lets look at it this way..Under a $1000 instrument.Like Ian said too bad for no sequencer but still,it's made for live.Tyros 4 and Pa3x are in 4k Audya even more.Are they 4 times better than BK5..I think not.Roland misses some things in this unit but the prize is so low it doesn't really matter.Even these big guys miss things and they are 4x more.
Tyros 4 is missing whole synth engine.I am not saying it is bad, but we all know it's dumb down version in 4K instrument.Even midi set up is terrible.Any regular older synth has better one..Can you make your own SA voices? I don't think so..Drums are still so compressed it kills everything else for me..And I am talking about LIVE playing.
Pa3x has these things but it's OS is terrible to set up and too primitive.It should be simpler..Audya I don't even want to start what's missing.
And these are still at least 4x more money "professional instruments".
So I say BK5 should be a winner..I played with BK7m's styles and I love them.They are not better, but they are also not worse than T4 or PA3X.And still a lot cheaper.
At the end I will ad that I have Pa3x and T4..T4 will soon go.


Glad that you like the BKs.
But in my $950.00 PA500 I can do more.
Great arranger LIVE PLAYING for me is to able to modify/mute/change/select what ever I want when I am playing.
Can I do that with the BK7m? No
In the "primitive" Korg PA500 I can at the touch of a button or on the screen:

- add PADS to a style (The BKs can't)
- Mute/un-mute instruments (The BKs can't)
- Change the volume of any of the instruments (The BKs can't)
- Modify the STS with diff performances (The BKs can't)
- Change the Drums mappings, kick and snare to 7 diff options on each VAR (The BKs can't)
- The SongBook in Korg is far superior to anything that the BKs can offer.

The BKs are adecuate to play what ever they bring from the factory and MP3, but to modify settings you have to hit that Big round button (Select) quite few times.
_________________________
Machetero

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#337552 - 01/26/12 05:34 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Machetero]
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Also funny to read is that the OS of the PA3X is terrible and too primitive. No complains here smile


Edited by FransN (01/26/12 05:35 PM)

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#337557 - 01/26/12 05:53 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Machetero]
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Originally Posted By: Machetero

But in my $950.00 PA500 I can do more.
Great arranger LIVE PLAYING for me is to able to modify/mute/change/select what ever I want when I am playing.
Can I do that with the BK7m? No
In the "primitive" Korg PA500 I can at the touch of a button or on the screen:

- add PADS to a style (The BKs can't)
- Mute/un-mute instruments (The BKs can't)
- Change the volume of any of the instruments (The BKs can't)
- Modify the STS with diff performances (The BKs can't)
- Change the Drums mappings, kick and snare to 7 diff options on each VAR (The BKs can't)

In addition including a dual sequencer (the BK5 has none)
even my < $499 Korg microARRANGER includes all the above listed features . . the $1,000 BK5 doesn't.

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#337576 - 01/26/12 08:25 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Does the pa500 have a voc processor & mp3 player?


Edited by Dnj (01/26/12 08:27 PM)

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#337659 - 01/27/12 08:45 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
No but the PA3X has smile

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#337664 - 01/27/12 08:49 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: FransN]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: FransN
No but the PA3X has smile


So thats where the other $3000 go to, a vocal processor and an MP3 player?

There must be more then that?
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.

http://keyszone.boards.net

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#337665 - 01/27/12 08:50 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Of course there is.
DonM
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DonM

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#337669 - 01/27/12 09:02 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: FransN]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Originally Posted By: FransN
No but the PA3X has smile


Thanx FranN.....I guess you just have to use a Mixer w/ FX coupled with the Pa500 or an outboard VH unit, mp3 player like the Harmony M no problem there. The PA3x IMO has it all.

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#337670 - 01/27/12 09:03 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Yes the PA3x is a great board. I still love it

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#337672 - 01/27/12 09:04 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: FransN]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Originally Posted By: FransN
Yes the PA3x is a great board. I still love it


The pa3x is definitely in my radar also.

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#337674 - 01/27/12 09:05 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
Just buy it I know you will love it smile

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#337676 - 01/27/12 09:09 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: FransN]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Originally Posted By: FransN
Just buy it I know you will love it smile



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#337681 - 01/27/12 09:29 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
They are right Donny...the PA3X would be perfect for you.

You could sell the S910 and microArranger.

Down to one, and one only...one really good one...that's my way of thinking too.

Keep it simple...let your talent do the talking.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#337682 - 01/27/12 09:33 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: ianmcnll]
FransN Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
No just keep the PSR s910. Mix very good Yamaha and Korg sounds

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#337683 - 01/27/12 09:33 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
Originally Posted By: Dnj
Originally Posted By: FransN
Just buy it I know you will love it smile





At least for a LITTLE while ... grin grin grin
_________________________
t. cool

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#337686 - 01/27/12 09:39 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: tony mads usa]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: tony mads usa
Originally Posted By: Dnj
Originally Posted By: FransN
Just buy it I know you will love it smile





At least for a LITTLE while ... grin grin grin


Ain't it the truth, Tony...

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#337695 - 01/27/12 11:18 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Everything I have is always for sale...If anyone is interested in a real NICE Yamaha S910...talk to me about it.

onemanband52@yahoo.com


Edited by Dnj (01/27/12 11:19 AM)

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#337696 - 01/27/12 11:26 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Originally Posted By: Dnj
Everything I have is always for sale...
There's one thing that "can't" be bought . . . Talent ! keys

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#337713 - 01/27/12 01:14 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
mirza Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 1314
Loc: london,ontario.canada
Heehehe
Why is everyone jumping to conclusion.
I never said BK5 is good or bad.IT'S OK for the money.If you want Roland styles than it's really good.It doesn't have sequencer,so what.But, it plays G70 styles perfectly.G70 is still TOTL arranger.
I just took T4 as a comparison,because everyone thinks it's the best.And it misses pretty simple features for TOTL arranger.
And I know Korg has 2 sequencers.I used to have pa800 and now I have PA3X and it's great.But I refuse to play midi files.So it doesn't matter to me. I try to play live as much as I can.I don't even like to use song styles.In a whole night I will use maybe 1 or 2.
Too me Pa3x is closest thing to the best arranger.Like I said I don't like it's OS.If you try to combine more SETS into one it's too much hassle.But they all have good and bad.
I took T4 as comparison because it's everyone's favorite.I have it too,but to me it is missing some major things which is a must in 4K instrument.No matter whether u use it or not.And that's why too me and only too me it's not professional instrument.
Bk5 is just another keyboard under a grand.Why it has no sequencer I have no idea.To me it does not matter.If I have to chose between full style creator and sequencer in an arranger keyboard than I chose style creator.For sequencing I use DAW or a workstation.
_________________________
MIKIMIKI

TYROS 5,BEHRINGER X32PRODUCER,YAMAHA DSR112,JBL PRX618s XLF,EV ZLX12p,SENNHEISER E945,....ETC

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#337727 - 01/27/12 02:35 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I see where you are coming from, mirza.

It's simply what works best for your needs.

I'm very content with Tyros4...I love the SA/SA2 voices a lot...very expressive in real time.

I'm much like you...I use styles (no SMF at all), mainly my own edited versions, made (using style assembly) from all kinds of early and present ones...plus I use the Groove&Dynamics part of Style Creator to mix parts of styles from completely different genres....it's a hoot!

When you are at the level of PA3X or Tyros4, it's down to personal choices and needs.

I do all my sequencing/recording on the Tyros4...never use PC, but that's the way I like to work...very spontaneous that way.

All the best,

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#337762 - 01/27/12 04:31 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: ianmcnll]
mirza Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 1314
Loc: london,ontario.canada

SA voices are the best Ian.I will never understand why workstation like Kronos,which by the way is the best by far doesn't use this technology.They say it's not meant for that.I say ok, but why then use at all these saxes,or guitars as matter of facts all acoustic instruments if you are not going to use the best samples there is on them.
Synth sounds are top notch.
_________________________
MIKIMIKI

TYROS 5,BEHRINGER X32PRODUCER,YAMAHA DSR112,JBL PRX618s XLF,EV ZLX12p,SENNHEISER E945,....ETC

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#337795 - 01/28/12 02:33 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5352
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Sample layer switching (Which is what SA is) has been used in the pro market for years, (Just look in any VST sampler) however these days most have moved towards sound modelling, which means the sound is created in real-time, just like the real instrument.

The reason the T4 SA sounds so good, (Although I have yet to find anybody outside of arranger players that rate the SA Saxes) is the meticulous programing by the designers, for the market it is aimed at. (The Home User)

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (Iïŋ―m definitely staying put).

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#337801 - 01/28/12 03:12 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Yamaha's SA/SA2 is so darn good because it is very easy and intuitive for the player to trigger nuances in the selected sound while still being able to play chords in the left hand.

I have had many pro synth players try my Tyros4, and the Saxes blow them away every time (pardon the pun). wink

So do the other wind instruments like trumpet and clarinet, and they simply adored the guitars, both acoustic and electric.

All say they wish they had the same easy to use, and super expressive voices on their synths.

Can't say I blame them. grin

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#337802 - 01/28/12 04:04 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: ianmcnll]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5352
Loc: English Riviera, UK
As I said meticulous programed for the home market

I go to many live clubs and see many live bands including Jazz, and not one of the performers or punters rate the SA Saxes. (However there way impressed with the Acoustic Guitars, but Saxes, not a chance)

Keyboards are a means to an end; however I always compare them with the real deal, NOT other keyboards. (Just because something sounds nice or impressive doesn’t mean it compares to the real deal)

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (Iïŋ―m definitely staying put).

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#337808 - 01/28/12 05:36 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703

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#337809 - 01/28/12 05:46 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: abacus]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: abacus
As I said meticulous programed for the home market



Yep, a home keyboard equally at home with the professional player.

I love the many compliments I get about the Tyros4's SA/SA2 voices by other pro players.

It makes me certain I've spent my money well.

Thanks Bill...you're a veritable fountain of knowledge.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#337811 - 01/28/12 06:07 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: ianmcnll]
Jez Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 206
Loc: India
Ian, I agree to what you say.
In my opinion where Yamaha is winning is not just the quality of sounds in its SA/SA2 voices its the way they articulate automatically(the algorithm which Yamaha has put in) instead of button based articulations(which is also available on the Tyros 3 and above). This means that the arranger keyboardists are free to play around with their left hand chords instead of tinkering with the modulation buttons/joysticks etc. There is no doubt that the use of modulation buttons tell the keyboard to play exactly what articulation you want but the automated one if learnt will prove quite useful especially for songs with fast changing chords played by not so fast changing hands wink

For a synth, I can understand where the nuances become very important, there would be track by track recording and editing, so its essential to have the right articulation at the right time and also you dont have to bother about other tracks(chords) when doing the track with articulative playing.
Some of the DNC sounds on the Korg Pa3X and a majority of the supernatural sounds on the Jupiter 80 have a lot of realism in there... I heard some of Jupiter 80`s supernatural tones; they are amazing and as good as SA sounds but I doubt if there is an automatic articulation happening. The BK-7m has two of the so called supernatural tones. They, through an OS upgrade, could have added at least 30 SN tones from the Jupiter 80 to both the Bk-7m and the Bk-5...

Definitely, Yamaha has done their homework in understanding the need and application of automatic articulation through the way the keys are played. Other arranger manufacturers should come out of synth/workstation mode and lean a little towards arranger mode when it comes implementing this feature on an arranger keyboard. Quite a long post here. I`ll stop wink
_________________________
Warm Regards,
Jez

Auron Music

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#337813 - 01/28/12 06:31 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Jez, I have actually played the Jupiter 80 ( I have it's grandfather, the Jupiter 8)...it is an amazing instrument, and yes, the SuperNatural tones are probably the sonic equal of SA/SA2 voices...Roland doesn't sleep, and keeps getting better with each new iteration of synthesizer. They don't control as intuitively (or as easily) as SA/SA2 voices, but I'm sure Roland is working hard at that aspect.

If they were to make a G-series arranger based on much of what's in the Jupiter 80, they would have one terrific instrument, and Roland could finally hold it's head up high again in the top range arranger market.

The easy way to trigger nuances designed into Yamaha's SA/SA2 voices is what attracts me, as a pro player, to the instrument.

Most pro Tyros users that I deal with in my clinics aren't interested in extensive tweaking, as "playing/performing" is where the money/pleasure is for them. They like to adjust the filters a tad, or learn how to assemble styles and use the Groove function in Style Creator, but for the most part, they dig around for third party styles and rely on their skills as arrangers and players.

Being a professional arranger player doesn't make one a tweaker anymore than being a tweaker makes one a professional arranger player.

I guess a better term for "pro user", might be "advanced player", as many Tyros users are home players, but very good musicians indeed.

Hopefully Roland will use the BK-5 as a launching pad for more advanced instruments, with more SuperNatural voices, and additional features (especially a midi sequencer) that would appeal to the advanced players and pros alike.

Ian

BTW...I like your signature.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#337816 - 01/28/12 07:05 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: ianmcnll]
john smies Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/05/00
Posts: 1384
Loc: koudekerke, Holland.


"....Being a professional arranger player doesn't make one a tweaker anymore than being a tweaker makes one a professional arranger player....."

Now there is a truism if ever there was one Ian.

regards,
John

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#337817 - 01/28/12 07:12 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: ianmcnll]
Jez Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 206
Loc: India
Yes indeed. If Roland can launch an arranger with stuff from the Jupiter 80 it would be right up there. And I fully agree on the ease with which the SA/SA2 in the Yamaha comes into play; it`s really a stand out feature.

Glad you liked the signature... smile Its actually an analogy I wrote from a paragraph I found in a book called the Tao Te Ching. It goes like this
Quote:
Thirty spokes join in one hub
In its emptiness, there is the function of a vehicle
Mix clay to create a container
In its emptiness, there is the function of a container
Cut open doors and windows to create a room
In its emptiness, there is the function of a room

Therefore, that which exists is used to create benefit
That which is empty is used to create functionality
_________________________
Warm Regards,
Jez

Auron Music

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#337822 - 01/28/12 07:34 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Very profound.

Makes me think, in a way (yes I'm silly) about the description of a fishnet.

"Many holes tied together with string".

And only two of my musical favorites, the latter reminding me a little bit of your signature...

"If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music." ~Gustav Mahler


"The notes I handle no better than many pianists. But the pauses between the notes - ah, that is where the art resides!" ~Artur Schnabel

Ian

PS...and this one always made sense to me..."There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself." -Johann Sebastian Bach



_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#337833 - 01/28/12 09:03 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
124 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 2195
My dad was a bricklayer and always joked about how mortar kept the bricks apart rather than keeping them together. He used to use this analogy while I practiced the piano and it made me see the principle of spaces between notes as being every bit as important as the notes themselves. Thanks, Dad.

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#337999 - 01/29/12 05:29 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703


Will the bk5 sound like the bK7?

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#338008 - 01/29/12 07:33 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: ianmcnll]
Steve A Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 388
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
Leaving off the midi sequencer was a very bad move, in my opinion.

Ian


Yeah, I would've ordered one today.....Deal killer for me......
_________________________
Steve A http://www.stevealtonian.com
Korg Pa4x 76...TASCAM DP24 & DP24 SD. Studio One 6 Professional with a FADER PORT 16. 1969 Yamaha FG-300 Yamaha Red Label Nippon Gakki. Breedlove American CME 25. Neumann TLM-49

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#338618 - 02/03/12 06:33 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
Jose Pereira Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 214
Loc: Funchal Portugal
Had anybody heard and tried this keyboard at NAMM? What about the sound? does it sound "cheap"??
As fas as I know, it is below 1000$ so, no sequencer isnīt the end of the world but if it sounds better than a Casio (or cheap Korg...) I think Roland has something here...

Jo

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#338619 - 02/03/12 07:02 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
It sounds the same as the module Bk7m


Edited by Dnj (02/03/12 07:05 PM)

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#338623 - 02/03/12 08:41 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
musicforyourday Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 733
Loc: So California, USA
I played it at Namm it is pretty good the keys are not full sized larger than Micro but still not full sized sound is ok a little thin for my taste.
_________________________
Genos, PSR S970, Fender Tele Amercian Deluxe Cherry sunburst , Cubase Pro 8 ,Yamaha A3M Acoustric ,Taylor 814, Ibenez Artcore Custom Tascam DP 32 Yamaha DXR 10, QSC K-12, K 12 Sub K 8 Sinn 945
2 Fender Expo line units .

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#338635 - 02/04/12 01:56 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
Jose Pereira Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 214
Loc: Funchal Portugal
Thanks musicforyourday.
I see you have a G70, I think this is one of the best arrangers ever built, does the BK-5 sounds too different to G70 (Iīm talking single sounds)?
The drums arenīt better than G70? I heard a few BK-7m demos and I think the drums are pretty good
Another question:
Are the roland styles longer than the one measure yamaha styles ?

I have a Tyros4 too, but I still donīt like the sound of it...
Regards
Jo

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#338647 - 02/04/12 08:23 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
BK 5

Looks like Roland BK5 is hitting the stores Now..

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#338650 - 02/04/12 08:44 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
musicforyourday Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 733
Loc: So California, USA
To my ears the bk-5 does not sound better it seem thiner in it sound the G70 I like the richer sound of the G70 seems scaled down in it sounds , Tyros 4 to my ears sounds Great not good for some sounds but works well with G70 , I am looking at PA3X 76 as a possable unit for me as well or MOX8 for a second Keyboard on stage for Piano and layers and useing Tyros 4 for solo and Sax ect . BK-5 is 1000.00 and worth that but to compair to higher units it will not.
_________________________
Genos, PSR S970, Fender Tele Amercian Deluxe Cherry sunburst , Cubase Pro 8 ,Yamaha A3M Acoustric ,Taylor 814, Ibenez Artcore Custom Tascam DP 32 Yamaha DXR 10, QSC K-12, K 12 Sub K 8 Sinn 945
2 Fender Expo line units .

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#338652 - 02/04/12 08:49 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
The G70 still remains a fantastic sounding full rich quality arranger no doubt. With the right speakers & Eq, tweaking the Bk5 could be made to really sound terrific...as great players like Don Mason has showed with his Roland BK7m many time....The Bk5 will be a nice gigging lightweight rig for sure....can't wait to try one.My only concern as I have discussed with Don is that using the Bk7m with a controller Kb like the Roland A500 pro would allow you many more feature choice in live play vs the Bk5 kb version..


Edited by Dnj (02/04/12 08:54 AM)

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#338659 - 02/04/12 09:43 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
Jose Pereira Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 214
Loc: Funchal Portugal
Hi Dnj
What features are better in BK-7m?
As far as I understand, the BK-5 have 4 programmable one touch setings for style.
The BK-7m have a manual bass option, but isnīt possible to program a set up in BK-5 with a bass sound at left, and use drums without the arranger parts playing?
at least, thatīs what I do on my Tyros4, it donīt have manual bass set up

Please, enlight me!! I didnīt played a Roland arranger since 1998...

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#338661 - 02/04/12 10:03 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Jose Pereira]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Originally Posted By: Jose Pereira
Hi Dnj
What features are better in BK-7m?
As far as I understand, the BK-5 have 4 programmable one touch setings for style.
The BK-7m have a manual bass option, but isnīt possible to program a set up in BK-5 with a bass sound at left, and use drums without the arranger parts playing?
at least, thatīs what I do on my Tyros4, it donīt have manual bass set up

Please, enlight me!! I didnīt played a Roland arranger since 1998...


All I am saying is that the Controller can be setup to be more navigationally cohesive then the BK5 allowing the player to customize the Bk7 to do what they need vs a stand alone Bk5...more options means MORE FUN! I haven't played the Bk5 yet so I am just going by what other BK7m players are telling me at this time.

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#338665 - 02/04/12 10:11 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
OS update for the BK7m should be out any day, supposedly with capability to edit OTS.
DonM
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DonM

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#338666 - 02/04/12 10:12 AM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: DonM]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Originally Posted By: DonM
OS update for the BK7m should be out any day, supposedly with capability to edit OTS.
DonM


Great news Don....thats would make many people happy....
cant wait to try one.....

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#338717 - 02/04/12 06:00 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
musicforyourday Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 733
Loc: So California, USA
Bk-5 has new Piano 2 option for fingering this option allowes you to play complex cords and the aranger will follow like G/B D/F# ect this option allows you to play like a piano player would play not a arranger but the keys are small and this make it not a option for me.
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#339132 - 02/08/12 04:35 PM Re: New Roland BK 5 demo [Re: Dnj]
Hal2001 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 154
Loc: U.S.
So does it look like the BK5 has more, less or the same number of voices, styles, and "Music Assistants" or songbook templates vs the BK7m? Is there a comparison chart of features between the two available anywhere?
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