Ketron, Yamaha, KORG comparisons.

Audya wins. Also the guiro in the Tyros doesnt respond well.

I liked the Yamaha the best (but, that's also why I use one). It just has more overall "presence" than the others

The Audya was a close second.

The Korg, at least in this comparison, sounded very one-dimensional.

Ian

Ian I'm sure with a bit of editing tracks all these units could make these SMF songs sound fantastic. I wish they would have thrown in the G70 into the mix also.

Yes, Donny, I'm sure they could all sound great/better with editing, and yes, it would be nice to see the G-70 included, but it's an old, discontinued model, and basically only available second hand.

What you posted were the three currently available TOTL arrangers, although, to be fair, the Korg has been replaced by the PA3X.

I really thought the Korg sounded very one-dimensional or plain, in that comparison, but again, I'm sure that with a bit of editing, it would sound significantly better.

In fact, so far, I think the PA2X sounds better to my ears than the PA3X.

If I was to get a Korg, I'd seriously consider getting the PA2X second hand (or as a new stock left over) based on what I've heard in the on-line demos.

Ian

Here is the G70 recorded..

Not bad at all Fran, in fact, very good, although there was a bit of distortion to mar an otherwise great sound.

Just goes to show there's still some life in the old girl.

Ian

Ian, I didn't even listen to the results..I just plugged into the Tascam DR-07, and recorded..Didn't check levels..I was sure it would demonstrate a difference from the other examples

It was uploaded directly from the Tascam DR-07..

Yes, it is different, I suppose, but there appears to be a fair bit of distortion.

Even with the distortion, it has more dimensionality than the Korg.

Maybe someone with a PA2X can upload an edited SMF so we can hear it at it's best.

Ian

1. Audya. Wow

2. Korg

3. Tyros3. (No realism)

For a truely "Blind" opinion (since I can't see which boards are which), and if they truely are in the order which Donnie put them Audya, Tyros, Pa2x, I'd say the Tyros sound more definitive over all including the G70. I agree with Ian that the PA2x (if that was the last one) definitely sounded single dimensional with no character at all. The first brought out some tonality but it still wasn't a true out of the box experience I would be comfortable using live, IMO. The G-70 was good, but it still didn't have as much character as the Tyros. There was also one instrument which just didn't sound right in the mix (maybe two). Was the Tyros a 3 or 4?

Just my $.02.

Very interesting post, Vince, and it inspired me to send the video to a good friend of mine, who is visually impaired (advanced retinitis pigmentosa) and let him judge. He also has my old PSR-8000, and is still enjoying it to the max. He doesn't go on line, so we used his daughter's computer.

Regarding the video, he was of the same opinion as you.

The Tyros4, the Audya, the Korg, and finally, the G-70.

He did add that he thought the Tyros4 also had much better, and far more realistic, panel voices than heard on the Audya, after listening to some on-line demos of both.

Again, sound is subjective, but I have to agree with him.

The instrument in the video Donny posted, was a Tyros4.

Ian

Ian,

This comparison really changed my views on Yami sound. T4 truely has much more dynamic sound than even the T3. I am very impressed and wish I could trade in my T3 for one now but that's out of the question until T5 or maybe T6 comes out and the going price of the T4 is where I can go for it. Interesting the other night I mentioned a birthday wish and before I stated my wife said "you want a Tyros 4" (not really what I was wishing but it's on track with this opinion).

Playing SMFs without editing anything is a very good way to compare units since their mappings to voices from GM SMFs are important when using backing tracks for realism and true quality sound.

It's not the T4 but the T3. Funny you yammi guys can't hear the difference.

outch! haha

If anyone has the original midi file I can post a recording done with the BK-7m.

Here is the file

Tommy how have you been? Tommy was instrumental in helping me get gig ready quickly with his knowledge of Korg arrangers with my new Pa800 unit years ago....I will always be grateful ..Thank you.

Neils, you're absolutely right, I noticed that right away too. That comparison test included the T3, NOT the T4!
The T3 drums and percussion kits don't have the new improved drum/percussion kits of Tyros 4, which have a lot more rich presence & lifelike detail & sizzle. But then again, if it's a SMF, I assume it would merely call up the T4's GM drums so it would require 're-voicing' the drums to one of the new T4 'live drumkits to hear a better 'keyboard to keyboard' rhythm section comparison.

One of the coments from the youtube video:

I have one tyros3,one korg pa2x,also 2 weeks ago,Ibought one KETRON AUDYA and in my opinion I thing that the KETRON AUDYA is far from oll other keyboards...KETRON AUDYA is the winer...I`m very very very happy with ketron...A++++++

He's right. AudioWorks-CT posted this about 2 years ago on YouTube. My t3 doesn't sound that good...

I'd love to hear it on the BK also.

The Audya is recorded before the update 2.0, and lot of new voices and improvements are added in version 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, 4.1b and now the 4.2a. So today it sound even better than the sound you hear in the video.

It was a Yamaha, nevertheless, Niels, and be very thankful it was an older model, a Tyros3, as the Tyros4 would have really made you buy a big For Sale sign for your Audya. Ha Ha!

Just kidding...I know you love your Audya enough to, as you said in another post,(the italics and underline are mine):



That's sounds a tad drastic, Niels, and does little for your credibility..

Tyros3 or Tyros4...it's still the "Yamaha" sound.

It's like the Audya, the SD-series etc...they have the Ketron type sound...you know, the ones usually in second place.

That just means you have to try harder.

Again, just joking with you...enjoy what you play.

Ian

The BK-7M? Isn't that the one you and Uncle Dave returned after only a short time trying it?

I admit, it does sound good, better than the G-70, in fact...it's a pity it wouldn't work for your needs.

I hope they come out with a BK-7MII.

Ian

Niels,

Since Fran posted the SMF, prove your statement above by posting a demo of the updated Audya with it.

SMF sound AWESOME on AUDYA, not only because i own AUDYA
but because i've heard/used most other keyboards/arrangers

best I ever heard...

and imagine replacing some AUDYA midi tracks, with audio tracks

Vince, it also must be an "unedited" playback of the SMF...no changing any settings.

Of course, we'll have to trust Niels with that, although his statement from the earlier post, and I quote, "I'm one of them and will do almost everything (even slas the T4 ) to tell keyboard players the advantages of the Audya compared to the others brands" does quite sit comfortably with me at this time.


Ian

Ian, don't take it so seriously. The T4 is a good keyboard, but as you know I think the Audya have a better overall sound, because of bigger sample size of the sounds and the real audio lopps makes it even better than........

I then need the midifile. (nielss1964@gmail.com)

Unfortunately, I don't have the time to do that now,
but whoever does it,
it would be especially beneficial to hear how the SMF sounds on T4 with the drums revoiced to one of the new Tyros 4 "live drum kits' instead of simply the legacy GM drumkit.

Just recorded a old Danish song. It's how the Audya sounds right out of the box. I'm using the style Bigband Slow and a Sax voice. And yes I know the T3-4 sax voices are better. ;-)


http://www.box.net/shared/qoay1snkcu

Neither do I Scott...I can also sense when another no win pissin' contest is in the works...haven't got time for them anymore either.

Only real way is to do it is on video, like the one Donny posted...right now, there too many possibilities of bogus recordings being used.

Time for more important things...like playing my incredible Tyros4, for one!

Ian

My take on these TOTL arrangers is that they ALL will sound terrific in the 'right' hands.
It all goes back to 'it's the keyboardist not the keyboard' again. JMO.

Thanks for sharing your song on the Audya well played....but if I'm being honest this is exactly the reason I don't use Ketron keyboards anymore and I've had my share of them. I just can't warm up to the Drums especially the bleeding snare....in this tune the style parts mix really needs to be edited and balanced. Sax is way above the mix covering all else....Nothings changed IMO since the X1 sound....don't feel offended it's my personal opinion only.
Some may like it & I respect that. But for me Yamaha is my choice.
hope to hear more soon.

Maybe I should download it then.

The Drums are a Audio loop, played by a real drummer. Funny you don't like real drums. The Sax is the solo lead voice, and I think it's perfect mixed for my taste.

Dnj,

if REAL drums is not your cup of tea,
then you do have plenty of other options...

i personally want my drums to sound as real as they get (when a real drummer is not an option of course...)

lee Yamaha drums can be made to sound as "live" as you like. believe me I played with bands 25 years with some amazing drummers....Ketron drums are not to MY liking at all vs Yamaha.

Donny, we don't always agree, but you are spot on with this post.

If that is supposed to sound like a "real drummer", I'm afraid he'd be kicked off the stage.

I suppose if one wants all their tunes to sound like they are being played by the "Buddy Rich Band", it could work.

All good bands strive for balance.

Whether it be Yamaha Tyros, Korg PA, or Roland G-70...none of these instruments have drums that literally sound way more dominant than what a regular drummer would play...yes, they all have their differences in "liveness", but they all are the same in one respect...the overall sound is balanced.

So far, I really haven't heard the Audya do anything with a good even balance of drums, bass, chords, pads, and phrases.

The Yamaha, Roland, and Korg remind me of my Honda Accord...it doesn't excel in one or two areas...it is just very, very good in everything.

Balance.

That's why you and I like the Tyros4 and the S910...the sound is balanced....plus, there is great factory, dealer, and third party support, and excellent reliability.

A great drummer isn't much good if he plays too loud, gets sick a lot, or can't play his kit in a balanced way (snare way too loud, for instance).

Ian

I think Yamaha players have forgotten how real music sounds. T3-T4 have a balanced polished sound, but it's not a realistic sound. IMHO it's boring and lifeless.

Dnj

Yamaha drums can be made to sound as real as I want?

Audyas already sound as real as I want straight out of the box
Without any extra work or editing whatsoever.

It's obvious with replies like this shows your immaturity..enjoy your Ketron KB...I won't be commenting on anything else you post.
btw neils did you get the SMf files I sent you of SWAY so we can hear them on your Audya?

Donny,

If you go through your own post the last couple of years you will find a lot of such replies from youself. And you are taking about immaturity.

Not sure if the immaturity remark was intended towered me
As you replied to yourself I believe Dnj

I'm just stating the facts as I and many others hear them

Well just agree to disagree

No, not really Niels...it's just that we are constantly reminded of what a balanced and realistic band sounds like when we play a Yamaha, Korg or Roland arranger.

If your idea of "realistic" is a drummer that plays too loud and uneven, and a guitarist that can't play on-bass (bass inversion) chords...well, you're welcome to that option, if you wish, and I wouldn't laugh at you for choosing it, but it is not, in any way, what I would want in an arranger.

Ian

Now we can't get a Tyros4 owner to record a simple sequence that was requested


I think the Audya drums and bass are the best...yes a loud uneven drummer just like the real thing

I like the new brush kit on the Tyros4..I do not care for the previous model drums...The Tyros4 is finally a keyboard from Yamaha that I think sounds good.....Overall I like the Ketron sound more though..with a few exceptions..

Yes I got the SMF. But why should I record it when you won't be commenting on enything else I post?

No, and you won't, at least from me.

The only true comparison would be a video, like the one Donny posted. That's all I'm interested in.

We had a loud uneven drummer in our band for one night...it was the night before we bought a drum machine.

Problem solved.

Plus, our guitarist could play on-bass chords, and the bass player suddenly sounded so much better when he didn't have bingity bangity drums to compete with.

What surprises me, Fran, is that since you think the Audya drums and bass are so good (even better than your G-70, no less), you haven't bought an Audya?

76 keys, more realistic bass and drums...what's not for you to like?

Ian

This is an old video and an old thread/topic. I'm not going to be baited into a pissing contest.

No Ian, I didn't say the Ketron sounded better than the G70..I referred to the video demo posted (Ketron,Yamaha, Korg)....I still like the G70 drums because they are completely editable.and sound like real drums,,but even ..and BTW: the BK series doesn't sound better than the G70

What I don't like about the Ketron boards..SMF playback...same with the Previous Yamaha models (Haven't heard the Tyros4 yet..playing a sequence)....I still am convinced that Roland still rules in SMF play..

+1

on purpose i minimized the window as soon as it played and I am going to copy and paste below exactly what I wrote whilst they played:

First of all, SMF's dont do it for me, but this is a pretty good one, a little slow though.

The first keyboard is very good and I was expecting it too sound lifeless due to the SMF but it was suprisingly life like. I am thinking...please dont let this be the Tyros!! Nice rich bass, lovely brass section samples and superb baritone. Not a nice guide voice though. Very good balance on the DSP giving it a live sound.

The second, also very good but why is someone winding a clock up through most of the track???? Putting that very off putting clock winder aside it sounded fine and the latin Piano is nice, poor lead voice though and the baritone is farting. Nice tuned Tomms and the DSP is good, but it sounds like its recorded in an emptry ballroom.

The third keyboard. What is this??? I only got half way through ..it is totally uninspiring.

So...

Then I checked back at the video and I was very suprised by the results. I was very dissapointed by the Korg as I have always liked their gear and expected it to be better than the Tyros. The big blow to me was that as an SMF player the Tyros sounded almost as good as the Audya except for the stupid clock which seems to have no bearing on the rest of the percussion section!

I also listened to the Roland afterward. But for me (and i realise everyone hears things differently) its so, so cold, there is no heart or soul in it. Its funny because there is nothing wrong with the sound...its just there is something missing..like I said it lacks soul.

Here is your benchmark to all three:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqaNMcphCSw

listen to that and then go back and listen to the SMF and see which sounds most like it.

Well, Donnie dupped us with it first since no one really researched the video until Neils did and found it was a T3 not a T4 and I found it was over 2 years old.

So, I retract my opinion for now until someone can do a video with all the current line of TOTL and include the BK-7m for comparison. Thing is, like Ian said, there's still too much chance of it being fixed. We don't even know if the original video had enhancements done on each KB to change the sound.
All I say is "Good one DNJ"!!

I know you didn't say that, Fran, but it seemed to be the consensus in this thread.

I think it's great the G-70 works for your needs, and it's a shame that the BK-7M didn't work out for you, as, at least more than a few of us thought it had more detail in the sound and styles than the G-70.

But, again, if the G-70 does the trick, then at least you are out of the loop for needing to buy the latest and greatest, although, unless Roland comes out with a new TOTL arranger (highly unlikely according to the rep), if you had to replace your present main arranger, your choices would be limited to the big three, Ketron, Yamaha and Korg.

I think the G-70 sounds great for what you are doing with it. Not so sure it would be as versatile as the Tyros4 in doing many different genres equally well, but for the range and type of music you play, it seems more than adequate.

What are you going to buy with all this money you've saved?

Ian

Waffles with icecream and strawberries...

Hmmmmmmmm?..dupped/......

I never stated Tyros 4 in my OP... "Ketron, Yamaha, KORG comparisons."

Yep, Donny got us all with that one, Vince, and I'm sincerely hoping that no one did anything to enhance the instruments, especially the Korg, which was very disappointing, even to Korg enthusiasts.

All these instruments can sound awesome, especially played "live" in style play, which is the way they really should be played, in my opinion.

With any of these top line arrangers, the right settings, and the proper use of effects and EQ would make it sound incredible.

Thankfully, I don't use SMF, so none of this really matters to me that much, but it would be interesting to see an objective comparison of the latest top of the line, the Tyros4, the PA3Xpro, the Audya (with the latest OS) done on video using the same SMF and the same method of recording each arranger.

But, I think we may have to wait awhile for that to happen...if ever.

Ian

That is so cool...that's exactly what I had tonight for supper..with crispy bacon on the side, and, a cuppa tea.

Ian

Ho-boy, now I want some too.

I just had Broccoli Rabe With Garlic, Anchovy and Hot Pepper...OMG!!
Recipe

FWIW, and with the caveat that I don't use SMFs for the simple reason all SMFs sound dull and lifeless to me, regardless of the equipment used to play them, the Korg's central slider position should have been pushed over to the left or right according to which sequencer was being used. As I say, I don't use SMFs, so I don't know whether or not this would have made a difference.

This is the recording from the BK-7m done with the built-in audio recorder. I have not made any changes to the midi file and the Mastering Tools (great feauture) was set to default.

http://www.box.net/shared/x62motork0

I am quite happy with the result. Roland has always been good at midi file playback and remember that the BK-7m has exactly the same audio engine as the E-80 (Rolands latest - and maybe last - top of the range arranger).

Donny, it was only a pleasure to be able to help you with the Pa800 There has been quite a bit of turmoil both in my personal life and work life the last few years. As a side effect I decided to sell the Pa800 and buy a digital accordion instead to focus more on music than technology. Now that everything has settled down my main ambition is to be a fair accordionist and to make professional sounding backing tracks with my Mac/Logic system. I bought the BK-7m mainly for the fun of it, but now I realize how much I have been missing an arranger (I got my first arranger keyboard more than 25 years ago).

Thanks for the recording of the BK-7m, to be fair it sounds as good as its price point. I have a feeling if you listened to an RA-90 it would be the same. Just listen to the Steam being let off...I mean the cymbals and brushes. But at least there is no annoying clock winding as mentioned in my other post.

Suprisingly, in some respects is better than the Korg.

Well I found some time to (audio) record Sway (SMF) played by T4
http://www.yousendit.com/download/dkJyZm1USEJIcWV4dnc9PQ

Not that bad is it? (Niels please don't answer this question, we know your answer)

The only tweaking I did was get rid of the GM/GS voices in the program changes and take real Tyros voices instead.

If you modified then it is not a good trial.

I have a suggestion.

There are enough owners on this board to do the job properly. But we have to trust each other.

Email the SMF of "Sway" to the owner of each keyboard/module (must be exactly the same file). We will each make a direct line out recording without any modifications to the file or instruments dsp, voicing etc. (If you want to do a second recording modified its fine though as long as the first is clean)

I am happy to do the Audya and promise not to edit.

I would like to hear it on:
T1, T2, T3, T4 SD5, Audya, PA1 2 and 3X G70 and old RA90, BK-7m. In fact why not everyone do it regardless of model or age.

BTW
I remember when Frankie did that SMF comparison. He did not alter any of the three keyboards, and meant to be a completely unbiased demonstration.
Bernie

It sound synthetic and not real,specially the drums . Nice played, but horrible sound.

Tommy good luck to you and you musical endeavors......maybe you can have both Accordion & Arranger KB to keep you happy 7 busy!

Exactly right, Bernie, and the ONLY way another test can be trusted is if it is done under the SAME conditions as the video uploaded by Donny.

Considering some people have admitted that they would do ANYTHING to make their brand of instrument sound the best, any other way allows the possibility of altered recordings.

All these arrangers can all sound incredibly good when the right sounds, the right EQ, and the proper settings are done by the owner/user.

And then, we are dealing with personal taste in sound, which we all know quite well, is very subjective.

That's when it turns personal, and there are never any winners...just bad feelings and damaged friendships.

We (me included) should be identifying with each other as arranger players/users and musicians, instead of comparing...the latter usually always ends badly.

Those are my views on it.

Ian

100% agree with you on this one Ian. Lets stop with bashing eachother's instruments (I know I did it also) and enjoy what we have.

At the moment I have great fun with my new Casio

As a life long Audiophile IMHO:

The Tyros displays the most openess and spacial positioning. The sound stage expands with each instrument placed in proper perspective.

The G70 is a close 2nd. I always thought Roland had a big open sound.

Audya is third, more narrow soundstage, although it may have the best drums.

Korg is last. It has a narrow soundstage with no dimensionality and a more closed somewhat compressed sound.

Great side by side comparison! Sorry I haven't read the other responses but I'd say the Audya sounds best.

Audya drums, and percusiion kill the Yamaha- hands down. No comparison. Korgs drums and percussion was not as good as Audya, but much better than Yamaha.

The Yamaha Latin percussion especially guiro and cha-cha cowells sound very fake. Korgs drums and percussion were second best. Really the Yamaha percussion (not drums) sounded bad.

Horns sounded best to me on the Yamaha, a very close second on Audya, and a destant third on Korg.

I only listened once, and as far as piano, bass, and other instruments on the SMF, none of the keyboards seem to have a clearly better sound. I'd say a tie.

montunoman,

i bet THIS one sounds very real
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mie9hhQTUM

LOL- Leezone:)

I get that joke quite a bit because Latin percussion is my main thang.

I've done sessions that last hours just on cowbell. I need to get a T-Shirt that says "more cowbell"

Hi

Th Audya 4.2a version of the Sway SMF. No tweaking done.

http://www.box.net/shared/vxd5mhm0tg

I think I am going to take a brake for few months from this forum.
When I join I was thinking that I was going to increase my music knowledge ( and I have learn few things here and there), but lately is getting to complicated for me.
Maybe I am getting to compressed dimensionality and as a result I am unable to get any sound openess from my keyboard.

Bye.....

Here is a comparision of the Audya and Tyros4. Only the intro.

http://www.box.net/shared/qoay1snkcu

And here the G-70, Tyros 4 and Audya 4.2a

http://www.box.net/shared/7h7j0zzr77

Tyros 4 sounds the best to my taste

Impuls

The Tyros4 sounds the best to my taste too.

The Audya sounds...er, metallic.

You know, Impulse, I think some people are getting all frantic and tangled up with comparisons.

That never got any of us anywhere before.

It's so much better to identify with other players, than to be comparing.

Comparing is for those insecure about what they bought, in my opinion.

I think I'll go play a nice, beautiful love song on my wonderful plastic Tyros4.


Ian

How about this:

If you compare the comparision with the original som with Michael Buble the Audya is the absolut winner. To say the Audya sounds metalic, shows that you shouldn't participate in debates like this. Noone can take you seriously anymore.

All this over a SMF...WTF

Hi Nielshs:

Please go back to playing music.
I really enjoy the songs YOU actually play far more than these 'boring' SMF comparison tests that prove nothing.
Your songs make a far better case for the Audya in 'your music' than any SMF comparison test will ever prove.

Respectfully, - Scott

Thanks Niels, I'll keep all of this in mind...you are very helpful, and I still think you're a nice fellow.

Of course, we're supposed to take you seriously after comments like this...



Come on pal, after a statement like that it's obvious to anyone here that you are just too much of an Audya zealot to have an objective opinion.

Continue with your silly comparisons. I've got better things to do, like identifying with the other serious players and musicians here on SZ, rather than get into another no win "mine is better than yours" contest.

BTW,...The Tyros4 is awesome!

Ian

Just for fun I uploaded the midifile played on the Casio CTK 7000. I used the audio recorder of the Casio for this. No tweaks at all. Not to bad for a KB of 446 Euro

http://www.box.net/shared/4roqodkgar

That sounds pretty darn good, Frans, especially considering the price. It looks very good too...what is the key action like on it?

Any word on when you'll get your PA3X?

Ian

The key action is pretty good actually even better then the PA500. Casio did a pretty good job on this KB. I like it a lot.

I expect my PA3x Saterday

So, will you keep the Casio after you get the PA3X?

You must be anxious as the time gets closer.

Ian

Yes Ian the Casio stays for sure.
Only a little bit