Following the advise given here, I've done a new tune without the harmony and very little effects, so I would be interested to hear some feedback if you wish about the vocals and the tune.

http://forums.keyfax.com/user-files/78792-2.%20Change.mp3

thanks,
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 01-01-2004).]

I like it a lot better! You can hear Terry now.
I still find myself straining to catch the lyrics a little. Only suggestion might be to try mixing the vocals a little more up front. But this may be totally personal preference.
DonM

Terry,

I enjoyed the melody..but there is still something about the vocals that makes it NOT Crisp and Clear to my ear. It sounds muddled and has a tunnel effect to it putng it in the background like Don M stated in his post..
What EFX are you using if I may ask, chorus comes to mind?? I'd like to hear this tune done with lead vocals set at just a bit of reverb and a very short delay with nothing else on your voice. I'm only being honest here.

jam on



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-01-2004).]

Terry, nice demo.
My two cents. The percussion track
seems to be walking over your
vocals. I would try to replace the perc. track with a less busy track, and then analyze how the vocals(as they are now)sound
in that scenario.

Don, Donny & Vquest,
Thanks all for the feedback, much appreciated. I have just a little bit of TC Helicon reverb on the voice is all.

I'll have another listen to the drum track too. Thanks guys....
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Hi Terry: I concur with the others in that I also prefer hearing your vocals w/o harmonies. Nice song, but concur with Don & Donny about bringing your vocals more up front (so the important lyrics can be heard & made out more clearly) as well as changing/reducing the amount of efx added to our vocals. If you do want to utilize your impressive vocal hamronizer, I recommend adding harmonies only to specific sound sections or just to accentuate specific words or phrases. Just my opinion of course.

btw: Curious which recorder you used to record this? Your new Tascam SX 1LE , PC Sonar, or? Also, what recording bit & frequency sampling rate did your use: 24 bit/96khz or? - Scott

Hi Terry I have listend to some of your recordings and like the rest I have to tell you that you have a good voice, but it seems you are new to singing, I am saying this because we all at firtst don't like hearing our own voice , so we think in hiding it behind the music and giving it more reverb sounds better.

About your latest recording . You still have a lot of reverb in your voice and your voice is not in front, you have a very nice voice all you need is to set the right reverb and you will have better results.

My opinion as usual.

Tony.

Terry,

It sounds pretty ok now, but Donny is right.... there are some things wrong :

a. The file is mono (was your PFL on ?)

b. It looks like you removed the 'direct' signal in the Voiceworks and only record the effect.

c. Some finetuning in levels is needed. Bongo's too loud and arranger too low level.

What microphone do you use and what is the distance to the mike while singing ?
What dry/eff ratio has your VW ?
Did you use a VW factory preset, if yes which one ?
Can you describe how your mike-signal routing is from mic to recorder. (Realize your mike is mono, but as soon as it processed by the TC-VoiceWorks you have to record in stereo)

I'm sure with the correct settings your recordings will sound direct, crispy, full stereo.... fantastic !

Roel

Thanks all for the listen and feedback....

Scott, yes on the Tascam and 24 bit, but keep in mind when it goes back to wav., it reverts back to 16 bit and of course then compressed to mp3.

Tony......is 30+ years still new to singing?

Roel, Run thru the TC into stereo L&R inputs in the Tascam.

Not sure what you mean by arranger, other than the kick drum it was all played live realtime, including the congas (which I think are a bit loud as well for the mix).

I use an AKG C1000 condenser, probably 8 inches or so away.

I used #32 on the TC with no harmonies. The ratio for direct recording is there, with the effects cut back. I guess still too much reverb though. Not sure how you are getting it as a mono track, it's recording in stereo in the Tascam.

thanks all,
Terry


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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 01-01-2004).]

Wowww sorry I don't get the chance to read all the imput on this forum , but as I told you the voice is there, sorry it was no offence Terry.

But to me your voice recorded sounded like it was coming from a tunnel so you sure have to work out on revebs and voice balance to the mix.

If I may say I'm not in cd recording I am more of live entertainer, but if this helps I normaly set the mix by firstly testing with just a little bit of reverb, where I can set the hight, midrange, and base to the best of my ears, once I am setisfied with the output, only then I set the reverb till I get that Crisp reverb voice I want.

Good luck .

Tony

Tony,
No offense taken, it's all good info. I'm thinking about redoing the vocals today. I'll repost the cut with drier vocals if I do.
thanks,
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Terry,

The MP3 is not a (single) mono-track, there is a left- and right-part. Both parts contain the same audio what results in a MONO-sounding image.
While recording a stereo-signal you have to set the panning of both channels oposite (one full left and the other full-right.

Your voice does NOT have too much reverb at all, there is something very wrong with your phases or settings/wiring.

Could you please record a sample containing only your voice ? (starting center clean, pan to left, pan to right, pan to center, add reverb) Only counting from 1 to 1000 is fine

Roel

Roel,
I'll doing some recording today as you suggest....because I'm not sure I am getting what you are saying here entirely, so I'd like to learn more about it from you.

The other thing I thought we might do as a learning experience for me anyway (and perhaps all), if you're up for it, is for me to send you say a minute or two's worth of this cut in single wavs of all the tracks and have you do a mix of it.

I think we might all benefit from your expertise. What do you think?
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

That is OK Terry !
Perhaps you can send every track as an MP3, what saves bytes (= time)
I'd like to receive a clean (without effects or reverb) vocal track as well, so I can use my TC.

I'll do my very best.

Roel

Hi Terry,

It sounds to me like you are too far away from the mic and are getting too much "room space" in the vocal. Either that or you aren't mixing the vocal loud enough, 'cause I agree that the vocal sounds somewhat like it is in a tunnel. But I really like the basic quality of your voice; a lot!

Tom

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Bigger is not always better

Terry,

After listening to your latest cut, I tend to agree somewhat with some of the above comments--but not all. First and foremost, you do have a relatively good voice, breath control is good to excellent and the timing is right on the money.

Unfortunately, your voice is being overshadowed by the accompaniment, and yes, there is still too much reverb. #32 is much too high for your voice, and I would suggest lowering the setting to at least 25 or less. Then back off on the drums and bass by about the same amount, or bring the vocal volume up by that amount. This should make a huge difference.

Good Luck,

Gary

Hey Terry,
Listened to the samples... Good stuff. However, as I listened "Singing the Blues" the vocals where much clearer and up front. I suggest you use those settings when doing vocal work... It seemed like that was recorded totally different than the rest. AT least vocally... I'd toss a little treble up to.. But that's just me... I love treb...
I've heard most of this before but this was my observation on this trip....
Keep yourself Jamming...
DJ

Thanks all...
Roel, I'll put it together, re-record the vocals totally dry and send to you.....I look forward to hearing what you do with it all.

Tom,
Sounds like you're hearing the same as most somewhat of the tunnel from too much reverb.Thanks for the listen and feedback.

Gary, thanks that seems to be the consensous of opinions here, so I am going to have to take a harder look at how much reverb I'm using in the future.

DJ,
Thanks the different cuts do have different feels to them depending on what it was I was trying to say and how. Here's an interesting thing though all used the exact same vocal settings, i.e. reverb etc. some had harmonies some not.
thanks all,
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 01-02-2004).]

Terry.. Nice tunes that fit your voice very well. I too would like to see less of that "tunnel" effect and would like to hear your voice brought more up front in the mix. It's not just the amount of reverb that I'm hearing, but also what frequencies are accented and where the vocals "sit" in the mix that gives it the so called "tunnel" effect. You have a good voice, and as I stated in the beginning, it fits well with the music.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 01-02-2004).]

AJ,
Thanks for taking the time. That seems to be the consensus of opinion. I hope to rerecord the vocals totally dry today and send it all to Roel and hear what he does with it. Should be a great learning experience I think for me.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Roel,
Do you have Sonar by any chance? If so I could send you a .cwb in one shot.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Terry,
I don't have a working version of Sonar so I'd prefer to get the pieces one by one.

My inbox capacity is not unlimited so please export tracks to WAVs and convert them to MP3's.
After I got them I can glue them together in Cubase_SX or on my AW16G Yammie

Roel,
Ok....I'll rerecord the vocals dry today and get them to you....I look forward to this and appreciate the help. I am going to send you the whole cut (mp3)because if you do as killer a job on it as I suspect you will, I want to use your mix on the cd, with credit to you of course.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 01-03-2004).]

Observing and listening to this sort of dialog is a vast learning experience for those of us not 'yet' into recording... thanks and keep it going. FWIW, I'm in favor of at least 'some' vocal harmonies.

Glenn....me too.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Roel,
I sent you a multi track 2 minute exerpt from the cut. Let me know if you got it.
thanls,
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

I'm sorry, but nothing came in.

I'll re send. In pieces.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Roel,
I have just re sent....I still need to send you the acoustic guitars, but did not want to overload the e mail. Let me know if you got those and then I will send them.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Roel,
Your connection refused all the files and bounced them back to me, so we'll need to figure something else out.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Terry,

Depending on his ISP, you may have to zip the files before he can receive them.

Good Luck,

Gary

Terry,
I got 5 files (check your inbox), so please send the next 5 files. (zipping does not compress MP3's)

Roel

Terry

Some members seem to be interested in this thread, so here are my first Q's and remarks :

a. Did you use the 'export' option Terry ? I ask this because the tracks have different timestamps. I had to adjust/move all tracks to the right position, using the drum-track as pilot. In an export operation this is not normal.

b. All tracks are stereotracks (2-ch) but contain mono information. Even the drums are mono while there is some reverb in it. Your drum machine is a stereo one for sure, so how come the track is mono Terry ?

c. How did you record the e-guitar ? It has a high dosis of noise in it and some clips (distortion) as well. (again stereo-track but mono)

d. The accoustic guitar sounds like your distance to the microphone is too high. De C-1000 should be pointing at the 'hole' and the distance about 30 cm's. (max)
See http://www.schoondermark.com for detailed info under "geheime tips".
(A very nice studio-recording site....in Dutch)

Doing as stereo track with 2 microphones works fine so you can adjust the guitar-sound during the mix. I use two (mono) tracks for this purpose.

Is it ok with you, sending these comments through the forum Terry ?

Please send the next tracks.

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

It's 07:00h in the morning now and I have to go to work right away.
I got the last tracks and did a quick listen to your vocal track...... VERY GOOD Terry.
Your voice sounds beautiful.
I hope to be able to do some remix/adjust work tonight.

Roel

Roel
I sent you the last track the acoustic lead this a.m.

"quick listen to your vocal track...... VERY GOOD Terry"
Thanks, so there is some redeeming quality after all then.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 01-05-2004).]

Terry,

I sent you a file and some comments, including detailed information about the way I created the mixdown.
I hope you like it ?

Roel

The attached file bounced back so it can be found at :
http://artists.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Turf/index-2.html

filename "Terrychanged"

Terry please let me know when ready, so I can remove it.

Roel

Roel: I'm simply 'blown away' by whatever you did to improve the sound. kudos to your amazing studio work to bring out Terry's song & voice, now impressively alive with realism & emotional impact. Terry, great song, terrific vocals & guitar playing. This is a perfect example of how crucial studio engineering is to acheiving the best possible result. Roel, I'm anxious to hear exactly all the things you did to improve the sound so 'dramatically'. - Scott

Excellent! I'm sending all my songs to Roel.
Terry, you should do some Willie Nelson!
DonM

Roel,..........very Nice work bringing Terys voice out in the mix from Crisp & Clear...what a diference!

I also want to say "BRAVO" on your other tunes on your website...very impressive playing and vocals....the SD-1 really sounds fantastic as always....
thanx for sharing with us!!

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www.donnypesce.com

Hé Roel,

You're the king !!Heel, heel grote klasse..

Terry,

Great work, very impressive voice ..

JJ

[This message has been edited by Daddy JJ (edited 01-05-2004).]

Thanks for your kind words

What happened :
Terry sent me the separate tracks for drums, fretless, aguitar, eguitar, congas and vocals.

This is how I tried to improve :
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hi Terry,

I got your files and tried to change the sound image a little.

a. Because your drums-track was a mono one, I took a new one from my SD1 (stereo)

b. Your fretless-bass has many clips so I put another bass from SD1 as an extra, to put some extra 'low' in it. Your fretless is still there but at a lower volume.

c. The e-guitar caused lots of noise and distortion and seemed to have too little treble, so I tried to EQ and remove the noise.

d. Your Vocal track was very good.... except a little 'gap' at 65 seconds. I added the nice Trueverb Stereo (WAVES)

e. I panned a little with the guitars and some reverbs added.

f. Because my equipment is already packed for a gig tomorrow after work I did not use the TC Voiceworks.

g. The congas were recorded mono.... so not much to change there, only a little room reverb.


I think your voice is great Terry and I hope you like this sound-image : No tunnel-alike voice & clear with a nice bright (long) reverb !

All operations on Cubase SX with a few plugins. (about 60 minutes fiddling around with time-stampdifferences per track)

Please let me know what you think of it !

I still do not understand why e.g. the drums track and TC have a mono image..... perhaps you have an idea ?

kindest regards,

Roel

Roel,
Got the file thank you.

Hmmmm....I have A/B'd the two cuts about 15x's now. I do like the clarity on the vocals of your mix.....like everyone else giving their honest feedback here....and as usual for me going against the grain. I have to say I prefer my original mix to my ears. The same as when we debate over board sounds, it's all subjective.

Now I do like how you brought in the acoustic guitar later in the cut, that was cool, think I'll steal that idea from you on the remix if you don't mind.

What I hear in your remix critique wise:
I assume you're using Hall reverb on the instruments? The electric guitar to me sounds like it's playing in a different space to me. The echo I hear from hall reverb on the drums I don't care for much to my ears and is why I don't use hall reverb. Overall to me the mix has a harsher more treblie feel, as opposed to a warmer mid/bassie feel to me which I prefer. It's one of the reasons I prefer the warmer Yamaha boards over the Korg harsher sound too.

This in no way says your mix is bad, quite the contrary it's a great mix, just preference.

I tend to mix mine to a warmer small club mix, (I guess too many years of playing them) yours is a more open airy concert hall type mix, again to my ears.

All seem to prefer your mix here though, so what do I know anyway.

Thanks for doing this and I am going to borrow/steal a couple of your ideas here though.

About the stereo imaging, I'm not really sure without further exploration what to make of it. Not normally doing it all this way, I'm sure I could have should have done something differently. I believe it was something in the mp conversion that screwed it up and exporting from Sonar. All tracks were recorded on the Tascam stereo seperate tracks with stereo panning. Then I re-recorded each track stereo panned hl & hr into Sonar.

Thanks for putting the effort into this and I am sure all including myself have benefitted from it.

FWIW....my wife liked that she could hear my voice better on your mix.
Terry


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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 01-06-2004).]

Thanks to all for following and commenting on the cut and thread and is the primary reason as I see it that we've all come together here, to share and learn from differing opinons and each other.

Big time thanks to Roel for taking on the task and time out of his schedule to participate in this.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Terry correct me if I'm wrong you mean you prefer your voice as it was on the original version??


Tony

Ok Terry,

I'll remove the file tonight.
To be honest I was thinking the guitar was meant to pop in later because the track you sent me has a looooong 'empty' start.

About the stereo-recordings :
There must be something wrong with your input-wiring because not a single stereo-file came in. Please do a quick check and pan your drum-machine to see the levels go from left to right. (OUTPUT VU indicators)
Another quick/dirty check is to pull the jacks from the instrument one by one.... touching the tip (wet finger) should give noise/hum at the corresponding speaker. (Left OR Right)

Some signal clipping occurs often, so check your inputlevels. (led's?)

I still think your method of recording the a-guitar is not OK. It looks to me the guitarist is a few meters from the microphone. The C1000 has a cardioide char. and the front should be pointed to the soundhole...... not sideways.
Correct placement generates a clear, bright and direct sound with only very few room accoustic-effect.

It's obvious we all have different opinions/tastes..... I'm happy at least some of the forum members did like 'my' mix-settings. I think your voice deserves the extra attention I tried to give it...... again my personal opinion !!

Roel

More observations: Terry's mix sounds (to me) like the music is coming from a small box while Roel's mix appears open (transparent) and airy. The other dramatic difference I hear between the mixes is that the bongo rhythm (which I found overly distracting) on Terry's original, were dramatically reduced (practically eliminated) in Roel's mix, allowing the side stick to be heard. I also notice that a (new?) drum track (which includes hi-hat & cymbal) has been added to the mix. I didn't hear it on Terry's mix. Reducing the bongo (timbale?) rhythm in the mix also allows the acoustic guitars to be heard better as well. My only suggestion for Roel's mix is that the bongos might be brought up just a slight tad so they can be perceived slightly more (but not too much). I've found this project both fasinating & eye opening. It's really nice to hear your talents 'brought together' like this. - Scott

Scott,

You are right about the new drumtrack. The new SD1 drumtrack is stereo and is slightly different from Terry's (mono)track. (see previous posted message)

My first goal was to refresh the Terry's voice and for some reason I had difficulties synchronising de congas to the other tracks.(tempo unstable)....what resulted in a lower level

Roel

Tony,
The answer is yes and I seem to be the only one. My wife even liked Roel's vocal mix better as well, but prefered my instrument mix. What probably would be the very best though, is something in between Roel's and mine I think.

Scott I think your observations are valid and in the remix I will do, I plan to drop the congas back as they were too loud in the original mix. I think you are right on too about the general difference between Roel's mix and mine as I said. Roel's is more of a concert hall hard wall feel mine is more of a small club soft wall feel to me anyway. There's nothing wrong with either and just a matter of preference as to what one likes.

Roel, I have rechecked all my inputs and it's all good. I believe it got lost in the translation to Sonar and then to mp.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 01-06-2004).]

Terry,
Perhaps Sonar has correct (not too loud) levels, but distortion seems to be generated before recording :Preamps or mixingconsoles stages (gain). Please listen careful to the fretless or electric-guitar track !

I never noticed conversion problems from any format to MP3 with either levels (distortion) or stereo-images..... so I don't think you are right on this.

It would be very interesting to know how your equipment is connected/routed. What signal goes where and how ? What actions do you take to record the fretless ? etc.

I put my setup in an easy/simple to read drawing created in Powerpoint on 1 single A4 sheet and advise all friends to do the same. This is very helpfull while making changes in wiring and makes all easy to understand.

Once the drawing is in the studio, recording and/or troubleshooting is a piece of cake.

Roel

Thanks Terry and Roel for sharing your project. As I stated before, this is the sort of thing that can benefit many, including recording novices, such as myself. So please allow me to ask a novice question, regarding only the vocal part.

As others, I noted the somewhat 'tunnel' effect (echo?)on the origional version. The Roel remix brought out the vocal with more clarity and presence... like the voice is now in the same room as myself. It would seem to be simply the result of decreasing the vocal reverb and increasing the vocal volume (relative to the other tracks)? Gotta be more to it than that, right? Thanks

Glenn
Recording Tech Wannabe

Finally got to listen to the remix--what an incredible transformation. Outstanding job! Really brought out Terry's vocal qualities and provided a clean, crisp accompaniment.

Thanks for sharing this valuable information,

Gary

Terry, you must decide if you are playing to please yourself or others. The remix, in my opinion, sounded 100 times better.
But, it's your voice and your choice.
Hey that may make a great song!
DonM

Don I totaly agree with your oppinions...
I think Terry should take a little more time in between CD projects before their release to the masses & work out all the editing problems.

Honestly Ter I can't understand how you say you liked your first version, now this is not a matter of liking, but to be honest with you when I heard you first take no offence it sounder very Amature mix to me and I guess to all excepth you , I don't know what is it that you liked.

I might agree with you that Roel mix might sound a bit Treblish but come on Terry I wouldn't think of compering your first mix with what it is now.

I told you when I heard your first cut that your voice is very nice but mixedown to be honest was horrible, I am not bieng harsh but honest.

[This message has been edited by ziggy (edited 01-06-2004).]

Well,
I will leave it all as differing opinions as opposed to digressing into a debate.

What I will say though about my mixing philosophy on vocals though is this and I think where quite a bit of the difference of opinion perhaps is coming from....

I prefer mine or anyone's vocals to be treated with just a slight bit more prominence (so that the lyrics can be heard)than any other instrument in the mix. Wereas the differing philosophy here seems to be the vocals are everything and anything else in the mix should fall way behind them. For my own tastes I do not agree with that mixing philosophy on vocal pieces.

I know very well that's the way everyone does it and that's the way it is traditionally done. I just do not happen to subscribe to that.

As far as cutting back and working out the "editing problem...first this cd is not released yet it and has to go to a final mastering yet before it is committed to cd by me. I do not just write and record anything and say ok, that's good put it on a cd. I certainly take my work as seriously as everyone else here takes theirs.

The fact that I work at a feverish pace at creating it does not mean that at least IMO that I accept whatever crap comes out of my mouth and hands. Easily 5x's the amount of work that I do commit to cd, never makes it to the recording phase and winds up in the studio shredder.

Because others perhaps may take 2 years to get enough tunes together for a cd, it does not necessarily follow that those who work at an accelerated pace are cutting corners at any phase along the way.
thanks for everyone's input,
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Why do you consider that discussion or opinions given by people on this topic which you initiated "digressing"?
You offered your work to the masses for opinions and when its critisized you seem angered at the responses versus talking about it here on the SZ. Isn't this what your intended reasoning for posting it in the first place was? Im a bit confused?


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-06-2004).]

I'm a bit confused too Terry.

I hoped to be able to figure out what is wrong in your setup/recording methods and left some questions.
It looks like you prefer to close this thread ? (leaving Q's un-answered)
I hope I did not hurt you in my comments.... if yes I apologize.

Roel

Donny,
I think this is rather unfair of you. I have taken more heat about my work than anybody here and the vast majority of the time my response has been thanks I appreciate the feedback, with the exception of the time that someone was just being damn rude.

Reread this thread do you see any angered responses from me? No you do not, you see, that is a valid criticism, thanks for the feedback and input. You also see my explainations for doing things the way I hear them or want to hear them.

However, my opinion is met finally with I cannot believe you prefer your amateurish mix, and you need to kick back and take more time, which implies that I just rush through to get it onto a cd and am taking shortcuts and accepting what is unfinished poorly edited work. We have digressed from discussing thoughts about improving the cut to baseless opinions.

If you would like a further discussion as to why I prefer the original mix over Roel's, here's why.
When the cut first starts it sounds like the electric guitar is playing in a different room. It's muted and distant. Three tracks were left off the mix an acoustic rhythm and an acoustic lead and the congas.

The entire rhythm section and drums went from a mellower sound to a harder sound. Way too spacious of a reverb the echos bouncing off hard walls was not the intended sound I was trying to produce.

There is way too much air space between the instruments, it sounds like they are all playing in opposite corners of a huge hard walled warehouse.

The vocals though far more prominent and clear, have so much treble to them, it's sounds like I have a lisp in spots.

I'm really not sure what else it is you wanted me to discuss. You all prefer Roel's mix and that's ok with me, it is a good mix, just not the mix I intended for the cut.

I really do appreciate everyone's interest and feedback they have provided here and in fact was the point of this thread. What I saw in the final few posts though was that we were now going to start slinging hash and is why I said I accept all the opinions and will leave it as just a difference of opinion.

If you or anyone has something constructive that they would like to add about either or both of the mixes, I would be more than happy to discuss it further. On the other hand if we want to get into personal insults, like it's amatuerish, or a waste of bandwidth, or unfinished, or get theory lessons, or poor recording and editing, then It really does not interest me to engage in what is sure to become a flame war.

I put the cut up so we could all learn and venture constructive feedback from both sides. Not to start fights and insults.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Roel,
I'm not sure what to say. This is not my first recording. My equipment is plugged in and working properly. I record in stereo. all the tracks on the original wav are doing what they are supposed to be doing.

Whether you agree or not something got lost in the translation from the Tascam to Sonar to the mp. How or what I am not sure as I mentioned prior, this is not how I usually record.

To put the mps, together for you I recorded each of the 16 tracks at 6 minutes each seperately into Sonar that was 1 hour and 36 minutes of recording, other than to export them as mp's I put as much time for this experiment as I wanted to allow for it.

Where it went wrong I believe it to have been in taking the stereo Sonar tracks and exporting them to seperate stero mp's.

there is nothing wrong with my Tascam, it is recording perfectly well, if you listen to some of the cuts from the previous cd on my site, it is recording fine in stereo.

Beyond that I do not know what else to say. If you have some other thoughts or suggestions, I would be more than happy to talk about it further. If you have a particular way you would like me to try recording the drums into Sonar and send you another mp. I would be more than happy to do that as well.
thanks,
Terry
thanks,
Terry


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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Ok Terry,..

I respect your opinions, after all you are the creator of this project and are certainly entitled to voice your views.
We can only go by what we hear here on the SZ, you as an artist very well may have different objectives when you record your tunes and rightfully so.
Thanks for sharing your work with us and as always ....Jam On

Terry, if you're happy, I'm happy. Keep on recording! I'm envious of your recording gear. To tell the truth I did't really listen as to how the instruments were re-mixed--I only paid attention to the vocals, and I was able to understand the words without straining on Joel's remix. Your vocals sounded clear and authentic.
DonM

Terry,

One last remark : Your original recording (mix) was mono as well and has no 'relation' to the re-recorded MP3 tracks......
Let's make music now !

Roel (pronounced as Rule...or Ralph) ;-)

Sorry Terry but your turn things your way and that is not good , I said AMATURISH only to express the way YOUR VOICE SOUNDED on the mix and not the mix itself, from the start I was talking about the VIOCE and not the backing. I was and still is certain that all people who hear your mix will agree with me. Now to say that you still say you like your voice the way it was , I don't know what to say.

But please don't take it as an insult, I don't intend to insult no one, and I know that at time we might think that people don't understand us but I am bieng honest and still say that your voice sounded very bad on your mix.

I feel that next time I'd better just read the imput and stay out because it's not fair to use what I said as an insult "I IS NOT"

Good luck on your work.

Guys, I really do appreciate and value all your opinions as long as they remain constructive and is why I posted the tunes and have continued to do so amidst the controversy....I do not want to wind up the bad guy here again like I did over someone saying my work was a total waste of bandwidth...I still can't figure out how I wound up on the wrong end of that rude insult.

I really have no problem with CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. I do have a problem when commenting on others work with insulting adjectives that are of zero value. Not only in regards to my work, but if you recall over beachbums work not too long ago as well. Those are not constructive criticisms to help a fellow artist out.

So in short the statement Terry cannot take constructive criticism is incorrect.

The statement Terry gets his underware all bunched up over ambiguious useless insults, then that is very true.

That is not why we have come here to share our music is it? I know very well that little of my work or the way I do it is going to be accepted here for what and where it is. I am a fish out of water here. 99% of what you guys are into is something other than what I do.

I fully understand why Roel's mix is more accepted here as the better mix. It is a more middle of the road what one would expect to hear on the radio mix. It focuses on the vocals which is what all of you do focus on your vocals. I do not. Being an artist that does alot of instrumentals, to me my vocals are just another instrument in the mix.

So to me it would be much like having a guitar or drums or whatever other instrument way too prominent and loud for the mix. I hope that makes sense to you all though I understand if it does not though.
thanks,
Terry



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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Ziggy,
I value your constructive input as much as everyone else's here. I am not trying to turn things my way. I was willing to accept all that was said and leave it at that and was then accused at not being able to take criticism about my work. It seems at times I can't win no matter what I say or do not say in regards to my own work.

I was trying to avoid these last posts when I said ok, let's leave it as a difference of opinion about which is the better mix. I wanted to avoid the well fine then, I just won't comment at all in the future.

For whatever reasons here what I feel happens is someone (not just me)posts a cut, there is alot of constructive help given and some ambiguious opinion insults added in by some just for good measure. Then when the artist defends against that the artist cannot take criticism.

Take a step back and look at it...."too much reverb" helps. "I cannot believe you prefer your amateurish vocals mix more." Does not help.

If your response was, share with us why you prefer the original vocals to the remix, then we could have gone on to more of a learning exchange about the mix.

For you to say, ok then, I just won't comment anymore, is a no win situation. If you are going to critisize then be willing to accept criticsm in return.
Terry


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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Roel,
One of two things...either I do not know what a stereo field is or I do not know what it is you consider a stereo field.

Let's use the drums.....in my Tascam, I have 2 drum tracks as they came from my Tyros on this cut out of the L&R outputs. In the Tascam they were panned hard L&R and recorded.

When I listen to the playback of those tracks I hear some parts of the drums coming from the left some from the right and some from both.

From the rest of the mix, I have 6 string coming from L 12 from R lead from slight R
congas and bass mid right vocals slight L.

Am I missing something in what you are referring to as a stereo field, as what I understand one to be?
thanks,
Terry


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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

One more try :
As long as the left- and right channels are EXACTLY the same (like your mix has) the image will be a MONO one.

My ears tell me this and just to confirm my impression I used Steinberg Mastering Edition 'Phase Scope' to prove it.

I can tell you there is NO trace of phase-diffences between L&R, so believe me : Your mix is as mono as it can be !

This is not the first time I put some remarks on your recordings-images. You seem to be absolutely sure nothing is wrong with your equipment/methods while many forum members (including me) do not agree.

This thread was triggered because of your tunnel-sounding voice and I tried to show another/better(?) way to put vocals in a recording. During the thread you changed the subject to 'not liking the instrument mix because of ....'. Your reading-replies is pretty selective and jump easy over the key-issues

Your EQUIPMENT can produce high quality songs without any doubts ! .....

I think all members are pretty mild in comments and no one of us was rude to you. Many of us DO know how music should sound like.

Please accept the critics without putting yourself 'above' it because of many years- and recording- experience, nobody is perfect.

Now honest & short : You don't know what a stereo image is ! ...... your own words (listen at your original mp3 in this thread)

Can we close this book now ?

Roel

Roel,
Woa....where is this coming from? I just can't win here. I try to end the discussion without argumentation and get slammed for that. I try to continue the discussion and get slammed for that now as well.....

My last post to you here was in hopes of trying to learn more about exactly what you are saying and you go off on me.

I was not trying to place myself above anyone here. I was explaining what and how I do what I do. What I hear coming from my recorder....period. There was no attitude or argumentation meant.

Now you're upset because I gave my feedback in regards to what I heard in your mix. Sorry...I explained what I heard in your mix and what I preferred in mine and also said yours was a great mix just not what I was trying to acheive. In response to those that were not willing to let it go as a differing opinion on the mixes.

I have no clue as to what to say, I accpeted all that was said and did not respond with any sort of angered or arrogant replies and wanted to leave it there when I felt we were going away from constructive feedback about the two mixes.

I'm done with posting music here. Talk about not being able to accept criticisms and feedback......have a look in the mirror fellas.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 01-07-2004).]

Terry I don't want to sort keep going on and on I admire you as a person and as composer, but please remember that we are not all English speaking in this Forum and for us English is a second language and at times we don't find the PERFECT phrase to express what we need to say, but speaking about myself I say what I feel and not just to have said something,
......................................
QUOT
Take a step back and look at it...."too much reverb" helps. "I cannot believe you prefer your amateurish vocals mix more." Does not help.

If your response was, share with us why you prefer the original vocals to the remix, then we could have gone on to more of a learning exchange about the mix.
....................................

Terry you said that you consider the voice as an instrument, ok well and good but if it is a sax or guitar it had a certain ammount of clarity in your mix, even though as you said that was raw material which you will eventually work to get it better, but honestly now I can't seem to understand why you didn't say, well that is something I will work on to make it at least sound better (VOICE) it's no matter if you want it to sound part of the instruments or not, the fact is that it didn't sound good to everyones ears not least your wife.

The point in this case is not a matter of taste but a matter of Clarity, and I guess we all heard that it wasn't there in the first instance.

Honestly this is what's puzling me here and I really whish to know your vies on this "WHY YOU STILL INSIST THAT YOU LIKE YOUR VOICE IN THE FIRST MIX.

If I was rude to you in anyway my appologies I I never intend to insult nobody, only bieng honest and helpful, I envey people like you and surely whish I had your talent.

regards

Tony.

Please don't feel attacked Terry and don't leave this great forum. Nobody has to 'win' here, you got an honest answer on your question.

English is one of my foreign languages and I was not aware of slamming you at all. (bad word choices ?) It would be great to know if you listened to the original MP3 you made availlable on the web and found out that it is not stereo.
You keep skipping this issue

jam on and stay here .... please ?

Roel

I accept and thank everyone for their views and feedback here about this cut and that Roel's is a far superior mix to mine.

Now that I have relistened to it with a more open mind you were all correct and I was wrong, accept my apologies.

Thanks for pointing this all out to me as it will only serve to make me a better musician and I will now work that much harder to learn what I am doing instead of groping in the dark as I have been.
thanks,
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

One small obsevation I just played the original version on Cool Edith Pro and I noticed that all through the demo I am getting CLIPINGS.

Terry did you get the clipping signal on yours?? cause that cuase distortion!!!!

It dosen't sound distorted mind you but it is above the cliping range.

Ziggy
I do push to the upper limits with dynamics in the mix....I try to get it as hot as possible without distortion, so it may in fact go into clipping in some spots. I am always torn between dropping the entire tracks back to keep any clipping from occurring or trying to adjust the track back with compression for those spots where my playing dynamics may have gotten out of control.

I'm sure the best answer would be for me to gain better control over my dynamics when recording. I have to do a final remix mastering on the cut and will pay closer attention to your observation and cut it back.
thanks,
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

That's profound. Interestingly, the same is often true for those of us who are English speaking, especially in the written word.

Glen you are right even though I am fluent in English, at times I can't seem to find the right word or phrase to express what I really wanted to say.

Terry I am really happy for you to accepth the fact that your voice sounds better and cleaner on the edithed version, I wish I had people like you all, round me all day cause I could learn a lot, that's why this forum is looked by COMPANIES Representatives cause here discussion is very serious.

Good luck to you Terry on your new work.

Just a footnote.
I prefer to start from the bigining within the High level limit than to have to use compression afterwards.
I normally record to the highest but never cliping you can always use the NORMALIZE if it's a bit below the norm, that is my opinion.

Tony

Tony,
I agree about never clipping in recording phase. There are many nice (DirectX) plugins that can optimize sound levels and prevent them from clipping. (Normalize, loudness maximizer, C4 multiband compressors etc.)
Going to the limits in dynamics can best be done by computers.
Roel

That's OK, didn't really wanna know anyway

That's about it, as simple as that, perhaps using a different type of reverb as well.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 01-08-2004).]

Hi Folks.

Well i have really only 1 thing to say having read this thread, try listening to the track as a whole, listen to the lyrics, try to feel the essence of the song, why its been recorded as it has, ok it may have a touch too much reverb but i too prefer the original, the remix is to Phil Spector'ish
for terry's music, the song has been sacrificed, improve the vocals destroy the backing and the whole feel of the song, thats my very humble opinion.

Don48

Don
Thanks for the input and my very thoughts. It has changed the cut to a much more commercialish renditon loosing the original essence of the piece.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

While I still would like to hear Terry's voice a little cleaner in the mix, I too didn't care for the rearranged version as much as the original. I liked the instrument placement in the original better, and it lost some of it's "feel" when it was remixed. I don;t think Roel did a bad job at all, but rather I think he moved the tune away from what Terry was trying to accomplish with it.

I had thought about asking you to give me a shot at it as well, Terry, ( remixing it ) but then I also considered that from here, I'm not certain of what you're looking for in your song and in the mix, and perhaps I would not have made it any better than it was, and quite possibly a lot worse. I much prefer to have the artist here with me in the studio, at the very least in the beginning, when I work on his / her tune, so that we can exchanges ideas and feedback instantly when I'm working on the initial mix.

By the way, I like the tune enough that it kinda got stuck in my head, you know, the way a tune can do that sometimes and it keeps playing over and over in your mind.

AJ

AJ
Thanks for the positive feedback.....I needed it. I believe the tune does need the reverb cut back some and the congas too. Otherwise I think the tune needs to stay pretty much as is, to maintain the original integrity and feel of the tune.

I agree that Roel's mix was a good mix, just a totally (to me anyway) different song when it was done.

For the moment anyway, I have abandoned the vocal cd in progress and have gone back to my instrumental work deciding to work on a latin cd instead.
thanks,
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html