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#57917 - 08/27/02 12:20 PM GOT IT !!
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
KN7000 arrived today after a small hiccup with Panasonic's delivery to my dealer ( Bank Holiday blamed )
Initial reaction ... WOW !! Got to get started on the learning curve now.
I'll have look at the Harmoniser ASAP since there seems to be a lot of interest - watch this space.......


------------------
Willum
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#57918 - 08/27/02 12:37 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Gunnar Jonny Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/01/01
Posts: 3118
Loc: Norway
Congratulations, enjoy and have a lot of fun !!
GJ
_________________________
Cheers & Happy Playing. smile
GJ
_______________________________________________
"Success is not counted by how high you have climbed
but by how many you brought with you." (Wil Rose)

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#57919 - 08/27/02 12:48 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Walter McLaren Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 320
Loc: Borders. Scotland
Great Bill, try playing Jealousy as the first tune, and, tell us what time you went to bed!!Cheers. Walter.
_________________________
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that swing!!!

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#57920 - 08/27/02 01:00 PM Re: GOT IT !!
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
strangely these final production versions seem to sound even better than the review sample, though aural memory is notoriously difficult to quantify accurately. If it is at all possible I do recommend a comparative listen alongside a 6 or 65. The results are very interesting.

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#57921 - 08/27/02 01:12 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10422
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Willum,

Congratulations on your new KN7000. When you refered to the 'harmonizer', I assume you meant the 'vocal' harmonizer, right? Is it possible to turn the vocal harmony (on/off) directly via a dedicated (physical) button on the KN7000's tilt panel and/or remote footswitch, or must you go into sub menu(s) to access this feature? Also, please report on the sound 'quality' of the vocal backup harmonies compared to the KN6500/6000.

Please tell us what you think of the 'tilt Panel' button layout as well as the stability of the tilt panel itself, especially when pressing buttons while playing. Does the panel bounce or move whatsoever when pressing its buttons? Just 'how hard' do you have to press the tilt panel before it moves?

Which sounds and/or styles are your fav standouts and is there a significant difference in the sound of the KN7000's acoustic piano from the KN6500?

Does the KN7000 support quick/easy conversion of KN7000 produced (Technics format) songs (including the auto accomp tracks) to standard midi file (GM) format, so they can be played (as standard midi files) by people who don't own Technics keyboards?

I'm also excited to hear how the SD Memory card works. How quickly does it take to load a Technics File which contains composer, panel, sound, as well as manual sequencer data? I'm willing to bet it must be almost instantaneous, right?

Really looking forward to hearing your candid feedback on your new keyboard as soon as you can find time to pull yourself away from playing it.

Scott
_________________________

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#57922 - 08/27/02 03:22 PM Re: GOT IT !!
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
the harmoniser looks about the same as on the 6X00 as far as I can see.

the panel is quite solid, unless you actually jab at it hard. If you press any buttons normally it stays at whatever position you leave it in. The display is separately hinged around a central horizontal axis within the panel for sitting or standing angles, so the panel can rest in its full back position in all normal operating circumstances.

the sounds are superior due to either better speaker/amp system or resampling, it is difficult to say which reason for sure.

the apc to smf convert feature is the same as the 6X00. Not as easy as a system which actually uses midi format as its patterns, but quite possible nevertheless.

sd card saves in 5 seconds, loads in 1 second for a selective save, 2 seconds for a full performance save. Very similar to the sx6 hard drive, only without any spin up time delay. Custom save/load takes about 25 seconds because this writes to internal flash. Single custom load takes about 1 second. Turn off the "completed" message screen, since this takes longer than the actual load!

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#57923 - 08/27/02 05:32 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Derek Ladkin Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/01
Posts: 63
Loc: United Kingdom

Go to bed Willum and count these ! It is 01.30 UK time and I can still hear you going strong from here in Essex!
I'm only jealous
Derek
_________________________
Derek

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#57924 - 08/27/02 05:41 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Hi, Further to Alec's comments :
In my opinion, the Vocal Harmoniser is no better than on the 6xxx however, it appears that they have dropped the Brass simulators - probably a good thing. I haven't explored the possibility of turning on/off with a footswitch - will do so tomorrow. There is no dedicated panel button for this function.

I've still got my KN6000 and I set up both keyboards side by side and removed the external amplification from the 6000. I loaded the same sequence into both keyboards and started them together, so that I could compare the sounds. I set the volume levels as near as possible to the same level and then used a dummy jack plug in the headphone socket, to altenately shut off the outputs of the KN6000 and KN7000.
It seemed to me that bass output from the KN7000 was quite a bit down on that from the KN6000. This may be due to the different positions of the bass ports. The keyboards were set up away from walls so I could walk around them, but still got the same impression. Tomorrow, I will try linking both, via a selector switch, to my external amp, and see if the effect is the same.
My first impession of the acoustic pianos is that the quality is definitely an improvement, compared to the KN6xx - even the 'Concert Grand' on my EW65 expansion card. The piano sounds are crisper and really meaty down at the bottom end.
As Alec has already said, the tilt panel is adequately 'stiff'. If it is rotated all the way back, it rests against backstops at each side, but even if you don't put it all the way back, it is still sufficiently rigid, to allow normal pressures on the operating controls, without moving. I can't see any real advantage or reason for not putting it all the way back.
The new positions of the controls take a bit of getting used to - but after a couple of hours, I didn't experience any real problems. It's not much different from moving from say a KN5000 to a KN6000. I like the new circular arrangement for the Panel Memory controls.
Loading and saving Technics format files to the SD card, is just like loading and saving to Disc but BOY! is it fast I'm sure it is faster than the hard drive on my KN6000.
I'm still a little confused about the file transfer from PC to KN7000. I've copied most of my Technics format files, sequences, custom styles etc., to a CD but have yet to find a way of transferring them via USB to the keyboard. I have transferred a complete 20 file Floppy in one operation, to the SD card, without any problem. My understanding was that the KN7000 would just look like an external device, on the USB as far as the PC was concerned - a bit like a digital camera on the USB port. However, the PC software that comes with the KN7000, for file transfer, doesn't seem to work like that. I tried transferring a file from the KN7000 to the PC, using the supplied software and this worked fine. When I had a look at the set of files, an additional file is created which has an extension '.ACT' and the transferred file set appears on the PC as a small Icon. Although, there are other valid Technics format files in the same folder as the successfully transferred set, the Transfer software does not 'See' them. I'm probably missing something and will do some more exploring tomorrow.
As far as styles are concerned, there are quite a few familiar ones from the KN6xxx but many new ones. The first ones I tried were in the 'Swing' category - some nice new ones in there
The keyboard (keys) is quite different from the KN6xxx. It's much whiter and it feels different - seems to have a lighter touch and I found I could play faster runs.
I haven't even scratched the surface yet but its well past midnight so I'm off for some ZZZZZs - More later

------------------
Willum
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#57925 - 08/27/02 07:16 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Benno Kattenat Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 225
Loc: qualicum beachBC Canada
hi BILL

thanks for the nice info on the 7000, best regards ,BENNO, looking forward to the the next one.
_________________________
BEANO

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#57926 - 08/27/02 09:51 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10422
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
I echo Benno's sentiments. Bill, many thanks for your fine inital report on the KN7000. It's terrific that you own BOTH the KN6000 & KN7000 to offer a true side by side comparison. Interesting to hear that the KN7000's acoustic piano sample (crisper and meaty at the bottom end) is substantially (WOW) improved over the KN6000 (which I had thought was quite impressive already) in spite of the fact that you say the bass output on the KN7000 is substantially less than on the 6000. I look forward to reading your report after you have both KBs hooked up to a single external speaker setup.

It's also reassuring to hear that the KN7000's does not move or bounce when the panel's arranger buttons are pressed (fairly firmly). This had been a major concern of mine. I just hope that over time, the panel's hinge won't eventually loosen making the panel less stable.

I hope that Technics reputation for its fantastic arranger 'chord recognition table' on the KN6000/6500 (in BOTH full keyboard & split kb modes) is continued on the KN7000 as well. Some of these advanced 'rootless' style chord voicings include a variation of the famous Bill Evans Jazz (A/B) voicings:
These include:

in BOTH 'full keyboard (pianist) mode' & 'split keyboard mode' (notes played as a chord with left hand):

(lowest,middle,top): Chord:
(F - C - E): Dm7(9)
(F - B - E): G7(13)
(E - A - D): C6(9)
(B - F - A): G7(9)

(E-A-Bb-D): C13
(E-Bb-D): C7(9)
(Bb-D-E-A): C13
(Bb-E-G): C7

Full Keyboard (pianist) mode:
(left hand) (right hand): Chord:
(Eb - A - D) (G - C - F): F7(13)
(A-Eb-G) (C-F) : F7(9)

I'm most drawn to Technics KN arrangers for their excellent support of jazz style chord recognition, traditional jazz swing styles (terrific for playing those classic jazz standards), and impressive acoustic grand piano samples, so Bill, I'm hoping you (or others) can test out the above chord voicings on the KN7000 and report if the above chord voicings are recognized as similar to the above.

I'm looking forward to hearing further reports from you on the KN7000. Thanks again and have FUN playing your new KB. - Scott
_________________________

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#57927 - 08/28/02 12:10 AM Re: GOT IT !!
Alain Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/99
Posts: 380
Loc: De Panne , Belgium
Hello,
I think you're one off the first off us that has the kn7000 at home.
I suppose you live in England.
The dealers in Belgium prommissed the kn7000 would arrive next week at the price off 3250 Euro.

I have 3 Secured Digital cards off 64 Mb.
I already copied all my sequenser files (in technics format) to the SD cards.
I wonder if it will work.
On my first Sd card I have three directories with on the first directory 100 sequenzer files (each song has 7 different files with extentions cmp,efc,lsw,pmt,sqt,tm and a ttx file)
Will the kn7000 be able to see the 100 songs ?

On one directory I have almost 200 songs...is this not too much ?
Do I have to make more directories with less songs ?

Thanks a lot,
Alain

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#57928 - 08/28/02 04:09 AM Re: GOT IT !!
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
correction for information purposes - the brassiliser is still in the production versions, called brass simulator 1, 2 and 3, for what it is worth.

I can't agree on the bass, Bill. If you try it side by side with 6500 on anything with real bass, the 7k is, if anything deeper, but clearer with less boom. The only way to test it in domestic circumstances is to physically swap the positions of the 2 keyboards, maybe eigentones of the room etc will affect the subjective result depending on position, a known effect of bass reflex systems?

The big improvement in the acoustic piano was from 6000 to 6500. In the 7k resampling , or the sound system gives it a greater impact and resonance.

The chord recognition has not changed from the 65 as far as I can see, but one finger has been replaced with basic, like on the pianos, which combines both one finger and fingered chords. All these examples come out as you say in pianist mode but not in fingered mode. Of the ones that are recognised in fingered mode, E A D comes out as Asus4, B F A as Fb5, E A Bb D as BbM7b5, E Bb D as Bbb5, Bb D E A as BbM7b5, Bb E G as Emb5, at least as far as the display is concerned.

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#57929 - 08/28/02 04:36 AM Re: GOT IT !!
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
Alain, you need to copy your files using the supplied software, because the card has folders for each type of file; technics, midi, audio etc and writes an inf file with the contents. If you copy and paste directly to the card from explorer the correct inf file is not created, and the files not seen.

Initially you have 99 folders, each with 20 technics loads, thus 1980 technics loads possible if they all fit on the card, and additional separate menus for midi files and audio files.

Also you can program playlists. You can have 99 playlists, from 999 songs, each playlist can have 99 songs. In addition you have a favourites system for files on the card with 40 pages of shortcuts, with 9 titles in each page, similar to the menu favourites.

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#57930 - 08/28/02 06:11 AM Re: GOT IT !!
John North Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 449
Loc: Alfreton, Derbyshire, England
Bill, Congratulations on getting the KN7000 - you must have a fairy godmother or something - two of my local dealers still have no idea when delivery will be!!!!!
Thanks also for your e-mail - I'm off to Warwick with the caravan at the weekend, so I'll be in touch later. cheers - and don't burn too much midnight oil - you still need your beauty sleep

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#57931 - 08/28/02 06:16 AM Re: GOT IT !!
Alain Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/99
Posts: 380
Loc: De Panne , Belgium
Hello ,
Thanks for the reply Alec.
So on 1 Sd card you can have 99 folders (directories) and in each folder 20 technics songs(sequencer songs).
Before I sold my kn6500 I made a backup off the hdsx6.
Now I have the backup on my computer : part1,2 and 3.
On the first part I have 300 songs (technics format) part 2 : 500 and part : 500.
All these songs have a number...I think this will be a hell off a job to reorganize all these files on the SD card , because all my songs were located on a specific directory on the hdsx6.

Greetings,
Alain

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#57932 - 08/28/02 09:11 AM Re: GOT IT !!
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10422
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Alec: Terrific to hear that the KN7000 recognizes (in pianist mode) all of the jazz 'rootless' chord voicings I outlined above. Technics is the only arranger kb manufacterer to support this. Because of this, Technics KN boards are (imho) the only arranger kbs tailored for professional jazz piano style playing.

Though I personally would have liked the above keyboard voicings to be recognized in split mode as well, it's 'far more' important that they are supported in pianist mode, as the KN7000 is.

My only concern now is the KN7000's vocalizer. Is it completely unacceptable for professional level gigging or is it (hopefully) at least passable enough to provide minimally acceptable pro sounding vocal backup harmony for the smaller-medium gigs? How does the KN7000/6000/6500 vocalizer sound quality compare with the one included in the Yamaha PSR2000? Anyone here heard/own both of these kbs to compare? I would really like to hear from Technics KN arranger players & vocalists who successfully utilize the KN's vocal harmonizer in their act.

Scott
_________________________

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#57933 - 08/28/02 11:09 AM Re: GOT IT !!
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
I'm surprised they did not push the boat out a little and expand the recognition more into the split mode, but again, tending to use all of the programability myself, and not playing 9ths and 13ths with the resulting complex backings, it is not an issue for me personally.

For the harmoniser see my replies in http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum25/HTML/000785.html which deal with this. Is the 2000 harmoniser exactly the same as the 9000 one? I've only played around with the 9000 harmoniser and did not get round to trying the 2000 one yet. I doubt very much you could be satisfied with the 7k built in one. That's why they have a dedicated comprehensive digitech/prism setup screen built in. You must admit that even the 9000 harmoniser is not as good as an external kit in the final analysis, though probably good enough to avoid buying one if it is sufficient for your purposes.

The load time looks the same as the sx6 if you have the platter permanently spinning. I did not like to leave the hard drive permanently spinning so had it set to park after a load/save was completed. Then a load required an extra second or so of spin up time from the hard drive every time, this is the time saved in an SD card load. The "completed" message screen seems to take longer than the actual load, so is best left switched off.

Willum talks sense, so I would be interested in his judgement when he has had a chance to get around the styles and sounds and absorb them a little...

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#57934 - 08/28/02 12:41 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Mel Trevey Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/22/02
Posts: 23
Loc: Ft Myers, Fl, USA
Greetings Alec from Florida--First thanks
for all the help you have given Technics Lovers and your excellent article in TechPlus... As far as I can determine from the Technics representatives at the present time no Macintosh software is available for the KN7000..there may be an alternate approach but lets assume
I have to load from floppy disc to the SD card......I have about 400 plus style/registrations that I use on gigs.
When you go from floppy disc to the SD
card can you explain to me just how the files appear on the keyboard screen.
Presently I have the KN6000 with EW65
and an SX3 hard drive...All my files, i.e. styles, technics songs and midi files
are numbered with a five digit numeric
code.... Directories 001, 002 etc. with
16 files in each directory. I key the the five digit code to bring up a style that I am going to play using the Auto Load by number. Thanks again for your help, Mel in Florida
_________________________
Bobby Bear

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#57935 - 08/28/02 01:29 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Mike Harrison Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 78
Loc: Oxford U.K.
Congratulations Bill, would love to get one as well but my poor old car needs quite a lot of money spent on It to pass the dreaded MOT, still have fun and will look foward to your posts.
Mike

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#57936 - 08/28/02 01:53 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Another happy day spent with my new toy
Here are a few more observations which I've made during the day.
Quite a few of the original KN6000 Styles have been re-worked although some of the changes are quite subtle - slight differences in the drum sounds and patterns and also in the ACP1 to ACP4.
Where the KN6000 had separate rhythm groups for 'Big Band and Swing' and 'Jazz Combo' these have now been combined into one group called 'Jazz and Swing' On the KN6000, there were a total of 28 styles in these two groups, but the KN7000 only has 20 styles in the 'Jazz and Swing' group. I thought we had lost one of my favourites - Lounge Piano - but it's just been moved into a new group called 'Movie and Show'. The separate 'Latin' and 'World' groups on the KN6000, have been combined on the KN7000 into a single 'Latin & World' group. The KN6000 had 17 Latin styles and 13 World styles and the KN7000 'Latin & World' has a total of 26 styles. It is possible that some of the 'missing' styles have been moved to other locations within the Rhythm Groups, like the 'Lounge Piano' has, from Jazz Combo on KN6000 to 'Movie and Show' on the KN7000. I haven't fully explored that possibility. There are also some new Rhythm groups - '60s and 70s' and 'Ballroom'. Since quite a few of the KN6000 styles appear to be missing or have been changed / have new names, until Technics get their download site operational, if you intend to trade in a KN6xxx for a KN7000, it might be a good idea to save your favourite built in styles to disc.
The general layout of the controls has not caused me any problems. Although generally, the controls are a bit further away from the keys, the important ones which are used during performance, are still nearest the keys.
Having spent some more time exploring the PC / KN7000 file transfer system I have found that it does function as I initially thought. Files, sequences, panel memories, custom styles etc., can be transferred straight from my master CD on the PC, directly to the memory in the KN7000, via the USB channel, using the supplied 'Song Manager' software. It's just a case of navigating to the required folder, in a small Explorer type window, clicking on the folder, click OK and the file list appears in the Technics transfer window, just like the Load window on the KNxxxx, when loading from floppy disc. From there, the required file group is just dragged and dropped to the 'KN7000' area of the Song Manager window. Just before the transfer takes place, you are given the choice of which files within the group to transfer, again, similar to the Load or Save options when using normal disc operation. Having made a selection, clicking OK starts the transfer. Obviously, the transfer time will depend on what data is being transferred.
With reference to the Vocal Harmoniser, it can be turned On/Off using a footswitch, assigned to 'Mic Reverb&Effect'. A possible downside of this, is that it also turns off the reverb on the Mic. However, if the keyboard is being used through an external amp which has reverb built in then perhaps that would not be a problem. This facility was also available on the KN6xxx.
I must apologise for misleading you about the Brass Simulator - as Alec rightly says, it is still present on the KN7000. I missed it because the screens are arranged slightly differently. (Who cares anyway )
As far as the sound of the KN7000 is concerned, I connected both keyboards via a stereo switching arrangement to my external amplifier and speakers. I then adjusted the volumes of each instrument, while playing identical files, so that their levels were the same. I then closed my eyes and got a friend to operate the switch, while the identical files were playing. Result ? I couldn't really tell them apart. During the test, it was interesting to note a very slow drift in synchronisation between the two units - very slightly different clock frequencies but not a problem.
I then carried out another listening test, using the two keyboard's internal speaker systems, again with identical sequence files playing . I think that the comment I made earlier about lack of bass, may be due to the fact that the middle and high frequency sounds, produced by the internal power amp/speaker system on the KN7000, seems to be more pronounced than on the KN6000. This being the case, then when trying to balance the sound output levels on the two keyboards, the volume control on the KN7000 was set lower than on the KN6000, to produce the same subjective sound level. This would result in the Bass sound being apparently reduced.
I should add, that the listening tests were not carried out in a 'Living room', but in my sound proofed music room. Whilst it is not exactly an anechoic chamber, it is very 'Dead' and was originally used as a recording studio, to produce demo tapes etc.
I regret to say that the user manual has NOT improved it is still C**P, for an instrument as good as the KN7000. Anyone not having previous experience and good knowledge of the latter Technics instruments, would find it pretty hard going to get the best out of the instrument, if they had to rely on the manual....... Shame

If anyone has a specific question about the KN7000 please post it here so that everyone can benefit, rather than email me. I can't say that I am very knowledgable on the KN7000 but will do my best to help. If I can't - I know a man who probably can

One for Alec..... When I attended the KN7000 presentation in July, Chris Whithead used a SD card adapter to transfer data from PC to the SD card. I asked him if the adapter was supplied with the KN7000 kit and if I remember correctly, he said it was. When you reviewed the instrument, was an adapter supplied? I did not receive one in my package.

That's all for now folks

------------------
Willum
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#57937 - 08/28/02 01:54 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Douglas Dean Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/02
Posts: 554
Loc: Prospect Heights IL USA
Scott, your question - Is the KN 7000 passable enough for vocal backup harmony for the smaller-medium gigs? You mean it could be passable for small occasions or engagements but not passable for larger venues. Or do you mean it could be passable for large gigs but unacceptable for the smaller ones? Donít you think that is a bit discriminatory? At what point would you draw the line? One to thirty, small? Thirty to fifty, medium? Maybe fifty to a thousand, large? Professional giging? When you say - Is it completely unacceptable for professional level giging or at least passable enough for the smaller-medium gigs, I see on another thread you state that nursing homes or when you do more than one job a day you consider it OK to give those people substandard performances. If I thought professional ball players would short change me by not bringing their full ability with all their equipment when they played a double header game (two gigs in one day) I would not go. I would be spending my money for a second rate performance. I have seen top rated stars in their profession give more than one performance in two separate venues in one day and not cheapen the show with equipment not suited to do the best job possible. Do less fortunite, old or inferm people in nursing homes deserve less than the best that one can do or provide. I guess in all professions there are proís and their are PROíS. I see you are still evangelizing for your PSR. Oh No! Terrible!! Get out of my way!!! Let me to the front door!!!! Gag!!!!! Whoosh!!!!! Too late!!!!!!! Phew! What a smell!! What a mess!!! Ruthie help! ! Help!! HELP!!! Honey, whatís the matter? Wha-di-ya-sa? Voca? Voca p something? One more time darling. Voca, Pisser, is that it? Baby, do you have to go, too?? Oh Ruth, no, no and no. Vocalizer and PSR. PSR not Pisser! Honey, do you feel all right? Whatís with this vocalizer and pisser stuff? Is it something you ate or drank? Oh Ruth, I donít know what I would do without you. Your my funny, funny little girl. Please! No please let me clean this up. No babe, itís not one of my new drinks or anything, itís just something thatís finally got to me. Something like someone who just keeps beating a dead horse and just wonít stop. On and on and on. After a while it just makes you sick to your stomach. Ya, Iím OK. Lay down on the couch for awhile? Na, think after I get this mess cleaned up Iíll just look in on the technics forum and see if Willum has any more goodies to whet my appetite. He sure has some good evaluations of his new board. He really expresses his opinions in a truthful and positive way. Sure is refreshing to hear somebody look at things in a positive way and not pickety, pickety, pickety kind of stuff. Not build something up and then turn around on it and tear it down. As Alec says, Willum talks sense therefore I can really look forward to and value his judgments. Ruth, your a real jewell. Thanks for helping me with this mess. Why donít you go upstairs and get into something real pretty. Remember? Wednesday is date nite. Letís do it. Letís go out to dinner and talk about nice things. Remember when I first kissed you in your barnyard. After a bit you put your arms around my neck and I thought you would never let me go. Please donít.

Grandpa Doug
_________________________
Grampa Doug

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#57938 - 08/28/02 02:10 PM Re: GOT IT !!
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
thanks Mel,
mac compatability will depend on 1) usb recognition and 2) the equivalent jukebox program to load and use all the features of the SD card. If 1) works you should be able to use any mac digital recording software. I don't have a mac so can't say.

floppy copy is built into the 7000. See my reply to Alain for the structure. You can load by number exactly as you do now, or by alphabet, or by folder, or for audio or midi by playlist, or for technics or midi by favourites. Ex-SX6 owners will be very much at home with the navigation.

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#57939 - 08/28/02 02:17 PM Re: GOT IT !!
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
Willum, my new 7k was supplied with SZ-CB7 card reader and jukebox software, and your dealer should supply this for you included in the price. It is a separate box.

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#57940 - 08/28/02 02:28 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Thanks Alec, I'll get in touch with them - no rush though - i've got plenty to keep me busy

------------------
Willum
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#57941 - 08/28/02 04:16 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10422
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Quote:
Originally posted by Douglas Dean:
You mean it (the KN7000 vocalizer) could be passable for small occasions or engagements but not passable for larger venues. Or do you mean it could be passable for large gigs but unacceptable for the smaller ones? Donít you think that is a bit discriminatory?


Iím really disppointed to hear you suggest that Iím being discriminatory, and giving less when performing for nursing homes. This is not the case at all. The amount & what equipment I bring to the gig has more to do with the room size and how long Iím hired to play for. The nursing homes I play at regularly (bi-monthly) are smaller rooms of 10-40 people and the performance time is typically less than an hour. I also charge substantially less per hour for nursing homes (which usually have tighter budgets) than for an all afternoon/evening one time wedding/corporate event. To make Nursing Home gigs financially feasible, I try to book Ďback to backí, two, three, and sometimes four Nursing Homes in the same vicinity (city) on the same day, so need to be able to setup/breakdown/transport my equipment from venue to venue quickly. The bottom line is that no matter what equipment I use, I always put 100% of my heart and soul into my performance, whether performing for a small Nursing Home with 10 people in the audience or a large event of 500 people.

My question here was to determine if the KN7000ís vocalizer is acceptable enough for gig venues where I need to setup/breakdown quickly. The bottom line is that Iíll only use the KN7000ís vocalizer if it will produce professionally pleasing results.


Quote:
Originally posted by Douglas Dean:

I see on another thread you state that nursing homes or when you do more than one job a day you consider it OK to give those people substandard performances.


Grandpa: I "NEVER" said that ! Here's what I did say:
"For the larger wedding/corporate party events, bringing a dedicated vocalizer rack is fine, but for the 45 minute set nursing home gigs & smaller venues (multiple gig/day type events) I need to travel as 'light as possible' with 'minimal equipment' for quick in/out setup and breakdown time".

I would NEVER use a vocal harmonizer (built in or otherwise) which produced 'sub-standard' results.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

- Scott
_________________________

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#57942 - 08/28/02 04:45 PM Re: GOT IT !!
J. Larry Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/99
Posts: 473
Loc: University, MS 38677 USA
I'd like to ask Bill, Alec, or whomever a question about equalization editing on the 7000. Specifically, how easy or difficult is it to change the EQ for specific parts in the rhythm section within any style? For example, do you still have to go into Composor and do each intro/ending, variation, etc. one at a time? Or, can you now EQ each ACP part quickly in a direct, straightforward manner that would be maintained for each variation in a given style? I may not be making sense, but I know what I'm trying to say.

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#57943 - 08/28/02 06:50 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
I may have missed it, but does the KN7000 support long file names in the PC to SD memory copy function?

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#57944 - 08/28/02 09:32 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Douglas Dean Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/02
Posts: 554
Loc: Prospect Heights IL USA
Scotty, Scotty. I can't believe it. As you stated - My question here was to determine if the KN7000ís vocalizer is acceptable enough for gig venues where I need to setup/breakdown quickly. The bottom line is that Iíll only use the KN7000ís vocalizer if it will produce professionally pleasing results. If it will produce? To determine if?? You make beleive you don't know???

This is what you just wrote to me today, less than an hour or so ago. My stars, (as Grandma used to say) you started a thread on this subject last month. Now more than a month later you resurrected that thread again. On that same thread on 8/22 you posted - I'm really surprised & disappointed to hear that Technics didn't correct the infamous KN6x00 cheesy vocal harmonizer problem on the KN7000. Hey, even my budget priced ($1,000 US) Yamaha PSR2000 includes a very decent sounding vocalizer -. Another post you made on that same thread on 8-28-2002 at 9:02 AM - If only the KN7000 included a vocal harmonizer of at least comparable sound quality as the one included in my budget priced Yamaha PSR2000 I would be happy. Sounds like this isn't the case though. Then you jump over to this thread and just nine minutes later at 9:11 AM you post - How does the KN7000/6000/6500 vocalizer sound quality compare with the one included in the Yamaha PSR2000? I would suggest you read not only what you post but the answers people give you. It appears to me everybody knows what the KNís vocalizer is all about except you. After reading your own posts let alone all the answers people are trying to give you, I canít believe you are really trying to determine if the vocalizer is acceptable enough or if it will produce professionally pleasing results. I think you enjoy talking about the infamous KN6x00 cheesy vocal harmonizer problem on the KN7000 (as you put it) and your budget priced ($1,000 US) Yamaha PSR2000 very decent sounding vocalizer. Hope I donít have to puke again. Is there any reason you dwell on a question that has been very clear for many weeks? Is there nothing else you could contribute except these redundant already answered wonderment's.

Clear up any misunderstanding? Scott I think I understand you very well. You have opinions and I think about things also. You and others think the KN vocalizer stinks, so do I think it stinks for what we use it for. Others think it fun. What I donít agree with you is you trying to make us believe you are sincerely trying to find out information when you, and almost everybody else, knows the query has been addressed many, many times the past month. And by many people, I might add. I also think it bad taste and a lack of discernment to evangelize Yamaha products on a forum dedicated to technics users. Of course this is a free world, for the most part, and people can do whatever they choose. Believe me, some do with gusto! However a little discernment would go a long way at times. For those people who sound like broken records, always repeating the same lines, never leaving a dead horse and can never find a solution to their problems much less see things in a positive way, there is now a fix. An almost painless operation. Being an outpatient operation there is hardly any recovery time needed. In fact immediate results. It is called an octorectumy procedure. In layman terms what they do is simply cut the nerve between the eyeball and the rectum which gets rid of that crappie outlook on things.

Grandpa Doug
_________________________
Grampa Doug

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#57945 - 08/28/02 10:41 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 182
Loc: lewiston maine usa
ummmmm wow.
Sparky
Yeah though that the harmonizer sucks. Puke.
Do I sense some envy on someones part? ha ha
I wish I had a kn7000 too!
There will always be time sometime or other! LOL
It's the being late that stinks! LOL
The Spark Tender has spoken his riddleless, rhymeless, and timeless words of boredom!

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#57946 - 08/28/02 10:44 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 182
Loc: lewiston maine usa
Or is it Just the MICHELOB SPEEKING?????????

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#57947 - 08/29/02 02:30 AM Re: GOT IT !!
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
J.Larry, As far as I can determine, the modification procedure of the EQ settings in the KN7000 is essentially the same as in the KN6xxx instruments. It has to be done in the composer, as you suggest and then the new style saved to Disc, SD or whatever. I tried it and it does work. I can't find any other way of altering EQ on individual parts of the Auto Accompaniment.

Bob, The SD card filing system has 99 Folders, each folder holding 20 files. Both Folder and File names can be up to 16 Characters long. The 99 / 20 system is irrespective of card capacity, as far as I can determine. So, if all your 'Saves' to SD card are arranged to only save the required data, then it is possible that you will be able to use most, if not all of the folder and file slots, within the capacity of the supplied 8Mb card (1980 files). If however, you are saving large amounts of data, say custom styles and sequencer, then the files will be considerably larger and the 8Mb capacity will be filled up, before you reach the 1980 file limit. In this case, a larger capacity card would be required.

------------------
Willum
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#57948 - 08/29/02 04:02 AM Re: GOT IT !!
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
J Larry, the only new equalisation feature for accomp part control is a reverb set screen where you can accept all the preset reverb values for all the styles, or individually set your own which then become universal.

Bill, you won't get near 1980 typical files on the supplied 8 MB card. Typical composer/panel/sound/song loads of 20 files use up around 13% of the 8 MB card. This reduces if you add in full customs obviously.

So the supplied 8 MB card will accomodate around 150 technics loads, or 15 typical retail floppy disks without full custom load. Or around 200 typical midi files with lyrics.

Even single custom loads, which is the most efficient way of storing and loading large amounts of data, will fit around 380 files on the supplied 8 MB card.

It gets interesting when you multiply these figures up by a factor of 8 and 16 for 64 and 128 MB cards, which are still relatively affordable...

64 MB card - around 1200 typical technics loads or around 1600 midi files with lyrics.

128 MB card - the full folder structure with room to spare for plenty of full customs, MP3 or WMA files, and pictures for your slideshow presentations. Remember the playlists give greater functionality in addition.

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#57949 - 08/29/02 05:20 AM Re: GOT IT !!
Alain Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/99
Posts: 380
Loc: De Panne , Belgium
Hello Alec,
I have 3 SD cards off 64 Mb.
If I want to use the entire capacity off the sd card I have to put 20 sequenser songs on one directory.
Normally I put one disk that contains 10 songs on a diferent directory. If I would do this I would be able to put 99 disks on my SD card.
If I copy 2 disks (20 songs) to one directory it would be possible to put 20 * 99 songs on the Sd card.
I hope I'm wright because I am reorganizing all the files from the backup off my hdsx6.

Thanks again,
Alain

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#57950 - 08/29/02 01:25 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Thanks for putting me right Alec - should have done the 'Maths'
Also found out today, that if you load a .WAV file into your PC, or a normal audio CD when it is connected via USB to the KN7000, it plays from Windows Media player very nicely through the KN7000 sound system system. It also works with other audio players that I have on my PC. I found that this is a good way for playing along and learning a new tune, since it is easy to pause and partially 'rewind' the song just using the PC mouse. Just a thought for us 'Ear Players'......

------------------
Willum
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#57951 - 08/29/02 03:16 PM Re: GOT IT !!
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
that is exactly what I meant by the 7k makes one hell of a laptop digital speaker system! no analogue degradation down any cables...

The other way round you can use the 7k as an analogue to digital converter from microphone and line in from guitar, or anything else, to wave file directly onto hard disk.

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#57952 - 08/29/02 04:02 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Tony W Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/99
Posts: 836
Loc: Lancaster UK
Grandpa Doug,
I really think that you a being more than a little unfair on Scott re: the vocaliser / psr issue. Scotts questions have obviously got under your skin for some reason.

Scott has long been a devotee of Technics keyboards and is a mine of information on the same. He has helped me considerably over the years and those that have known him a while will remember his enthusiasm for his kn5000.

The fact is that keyboards (like everything else)need replacing once in a while and more so I would think if you rely on them to make your living. The fact is that after the 5000 technics did not offer a package to suit Scotts needs. It is only the stuff we ALL moan about like why technics insist(ed) on using hard drives that were specific to them when other manufacturers don't and why the psr9000 / korg pa80 could have decent harmonisers built in and technics had a joke instead. I do know however that none of this makes Scott any the less keen for technics, indeed he is often found extoling the better points of a technics board. Even in this thread he has commented on the excellent piano sound of the 6000 and of the unrivaled chord recognition features of technics boards.

Ok so Scott likes to be specific, he likes to get to the nitty gritty of a question and dot the I's and cross the t's. Those of us that know Scott accept this as part of his character and to be honest it is that ceasless questioning that makes him so technically adept as a musician.

I do not see that owning a psr2000 precludes scott from commenting on technics instruments especially when he is a long time user of them and may well consider that the 7000 is the board for him when he has auditioned it. I also fail to see the crime in informing us of the better features of other boards. Hell, Scott has even trounced Yamaha and the 2000 for the flash upgrade issue so quite how you can call him evangelical is beyond me.

I usually enjoy your literary asides because, in the past they have always had humorous intent. On this occasion they just seemed designed to insult and humiliate.

Tony

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#57953 - 08/30/02 11:39 AM Re: GOT IT !!
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10422
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Tony: MANY thanks for sticking your neck out there to defend me. You stated my sentiments prescisely. - Scott
_________________________

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#57954 - 08/30/02 11:54 AM Re: GOT IT !!
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
I've been having a look at the KN7000 SD card filing system and made the following observations.

The 8 Megabyte card supplied with the KN7000, when blank, reports in the SD menu as having 6608Kb (6.608Mb) free.
8Mb = 8192Kb : 8192 minus 6608 = 1584Kb So, where has just over 1.5Mb of memory gone?
I then tried the same operation with a 32Mb card (32768Kb) and it reports only 30352Kb (30.352Mb) free!
This time, Missing 2416Kb. So where has just over 2.4Mb of memory gone?

I then tried some comparative tests saving identical data to the 8Mb SD card and then to Floppy Disc.
I named the first Folder using 16 Characters and this reduced the free memory from 6608Kb to 6576Kb - a drop of 32Kb!
The SD card file data was deleted between tests, so all tests started from the '6576KB Free' point.

Test 1 : Save 3Bank Panel Mem, Current Panel and Effects only, naming the file group using 16 Characters for SD.
Results : Free memory now 6504Kb - Operation used 72Kb. Same file arrangement saved to Floppy used 17Kb.

Test 2 : Save 'Perform' option again using 16 Character file group name for the SD card.
Results : Free memory now 6400Kb - Operation used 208Kb. Same file arrangement saved to Floppy used 95Kb.

Test 3 : Save all Custom Styles only again using 16 Character file group name for the SD card.
Results : Free memory now 6520Kb - Operation used 88Kb. Same arrangement saved to Floppy used 205Kb

Test 4 : Save 'Perform' and Custom again using 16 Character file group name for the SD card.
Results : Free memory now 6392Kb - Operation used 216Kb. Same arrangement saved to Floppy used 429Kb

Test 5 : Save 3Bank Panel Mem, Current Panel and Effects only, same data to 10 file groups, each 16 Character name.
Results : Free memory now 6216Kb - Operation used 360Kb. Same arrangement saved to Floppy used 171Kb.
This means that the average space used on the SD card for each operation was 36Kb
compared to 17Kb on Floppy.

Interesting stuff Eh??? The strange result is the large difference when saving Custom Memory. This operation shows a considerable reduction in the required SD memory, compared to that on a floppy disc. All the other operations required more SD memory than floppy space. I repeated Test 3 several times and got the same result every time.

Finally, I continuously transferred data to the 8Mb SD card, from floppy discs until it reported full. Toward the end of the process, I transferred only small files so that I didn't overflow the capacity and get a erroneous result. Having filled the SD card, I then took the floppy discs which I used, and added up the files sizes, using Windows Explorer. The total file size was 6.32Mb.


------------------
Willum
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#57955 - 08/30/02 02:00 PM Re: GOT IT !!
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
interesting, but I would not use the 7k display as comparison.
various points:

I assume the cards format as FAT16 whereas floppies are FAT12, so differences between numbers of small and large files may build up?

Cards are specified as MB = 1,000,000,bytes like every similar medium like hard drives, whereas windows and ide channels count a MB as 1024*1024 = 1,048,576 bytes so an apparent reduction in size always takes place due to this with every medium.

The filesystem must have an overhead, if this is relatively constant, it will be advantageous to the bigger cards and disadvantageous to the smaller.

We shall see how filling the filesystem with playlists etc affect the capacity, or whether this is already spoken for in the overhead.

5448 kbytes free on the 7k shows as 5579 kbytes in windows. If you look at the exactly the same files on pc and floppy you will see a different number of bytes used due to above reasons.

It looks like the file system overhead is the majority influence.

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#57956 - 08/30/02 02:57 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Marilyn Boissoneault Offline
Member

Registered: 06/07/00
Posts: 219
Loc: Melbourne, Florida, USA
Scott, I'm sure there are a lot of us here that echo Tony's comments. He said it well.

Marilyn

Quote:
Originally posted by Scottyee:
Tony: MANY thanks for sticking your neck out there to defend me. You stated my sentiments prescisely. - Scott

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#57957 - 08/30/02 03:55 PM Re: GOT IT !!
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Alec, So are you saying that the Free memory display on the screen is not correct?
Assuming it's not far out, and if the 8Mb card capacity is 8,000KB the overhead seems a bit excessive at just over 17% of the card's capacity. I agree that the larger the card, the less the effect and indeed, the 32Mb overhead drops to just over 5% of capacity.
Incidentally, the 'lid' on the KN7000 acts like a fridge door - close it, and the 'lights' go out. All LEDs and the screen are disabled by a little projection on the left end of the keyboard, operating a small push switch on the panel - nice feature no point in wasting power if you don't need the lights.


------------------
Willum
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#57958 - 08/30/02 05:39 PM Re: GOT IT !!
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
I did not say that it is not correct, just that it looks like it is measured differently. If you measure with one system in the display and another in windows or floppies the comparison will be wrong, that is the only point I'm making.

If the overhead is the major factor, then calculating bytes and different file allocation system blocks will be the minority factor and may be able to be ignored in the bigger picture, though it still contributes. It looks as if this may be the case here. We don't know what they have done in the overhead. There is presumably space for all the navigation features, maybe filenames, remembering space is needed for the structure of possible midi files and audio files as well as technics format and individual custom style saves as opposed to full customs, and also any pictures for slideshows and any playlists you may program. Maybe this size overhead covers all these loading structures and their possible filenames? It seems likely because you have alphabet sort available in the menus.

A very similar scenario presented with the SX hard drives, if you added up the free space shown for each partition and compared it with the manufacturers quoted size of hard drive.

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#57959 - 08/31/02 08:38 AM Re: GOT IT !!
John North Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 449
Loc: Alfreton, Derbyshire, England
Bill, Alec
Got my 7000 yesterday, and had to do a rush job to prepare it for a gig last night. (Took some floppies, just in case)
Saved 40 x 3 Bank files, which included Composer & Sound Memory, and 6 x All files which also included Composer & Sound Memory.
The result being I'd used 49% of the 8Mb SD card, leaving 3,352Kb free.
The only test I managed to find time to do, was to load one or two files, then save them again excluding Sound Memory. That's when my brain started hurting Sometimes there was a little more free space, but sometimes less!!! Needless to say, I've ordered a 128Mb SD card. I'm off to Warwick with the caravan in the morning. I've offered to leave my wife there whilst I come back home to work on the 7000 or alternatively take it with me. She wasn't very impressed with either idea.

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#57960 - 08/31/02 10:00 AM Re: GOT IT !!
Johnnie.c Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/01
Posts: 561
Loc: England
Now we really know don't we that over the coming weeks there are going to be people coming along here whose sole purpose is going to be to knock the KN7000 partly out of jealousy & partly out of ignorance. It defies belief that anybody can pass an honest opinion about this keyboard without actually having one in their hands or worse still not even laid their eyes on one.
Now I know that some of you will be saying what the hell is this guy going on about, well I am just preparing you because as sure as eggs are eggs it will happen.
Another thing that annoys me personally is that information about the KN7000 has already started to leech into most of the threads that has already been posted or discussed on more than one occasion now surely if the information is already available & we follow the forum
is there any real need to go over old ground unless somebody asks.
For those of us that have made the choice to change to the KN7000 & have been able acquire one then life is pretty rosy at the moment but let us bear a thought for those that have not & are more than frustrated.
If you remember past forums then you will understand what I am saying here
These comments are not pointed at anyone at all they are just a generalisation.

Are there others out there in the USA that have the 7000 or the EWO3 expansion card

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#57961 - 08/31/02 11:03 AM Re: GOT IT !!
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
John, this is entirely in line with my predictions then, since you loaded the equivalent of 4 x 10 files of composer/panel/sound etc and 6 full custom style groups which are roughly the equivalent of at least another 6 x 10 performance type loads, and generally quite a bit more.

If the card is half full, then the equivalent for the full 8 MB is around 20 x 10 performance type loads, or in the region of 200 performance files or more.

If you add in sequences with typically single songs this may tend to bring the total down to the 150 performance loads region. It all depends on the subfile combinations you are saving, and how efficiently you arrange your work.

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#57962 - 09/01/02 01:17 AM Re: GOT IT !!
John North Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 449
Loc: Alfreton, Derbyshire, England
Alec. You're quite right, and it's more or less as I expected. Having been particularly lazy with my HDSX6 I always used to save my Sound memory files, composer files etc. whether they were needed or not, just to have them
handy. As a result the floppies I've loaded onto the SD card often contain far more data than I need - I just hadn't time to trim them down a bit.
I'm absolutely delighted with the instrument. Having done a gig with it, after only a couple of hours to set it up, I was completely comfortable with it. (1 minor irritation was with the Panel Memories - my old brain couldn't quite get used to the anti-clockwise layout - once or twice I went from PM1 to PM8 - but nobody booed - well I didn't hear them)

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#57963 - 09/01/02 02:00 AM Re: GOT IT !!
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
yes, I know what you mean. My method was remembering it as 1 to 4 bottom left to right

and 5 to 8 as top right to left. Once the picture clicks in your mind, then it's OK.

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