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#48036 - 10/18/03 12:00 AM When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi All:

I been downloading and playing back the KN6xk and KN7k recorded songs by the talented people here on the forum. All are really wonderful, interesting techniques used, and the playing style. Most have KN's, and I really wish I could share my songs, but unfortunately the KN is not compatible with the PR model (from PR to KN). I even made a stab at going the NX route only to discover the APC to SMF convert only converts the APC part and ignores the R1, R2 and Left (why have it). So I'll contribute with tips and hope this will be beneficial.

BACKGROUND INFO:
I noticed most players will use the pre-built rhythm patterns of the KN's, and stick with the original location. Do you know how Technics handles these types of saves? It actually doesn't save that rhythm pattern, but the location, via panel memory or current memory. This is great when playing back on the same exact model. Technics changes these pre-built rhythm patterns with every new model? Some patterns are entirely gone, others with minor changes, and completely new ones.

EXAMPLE:
Lets say you have a KN6000 and made a library of songs using the pre-built rhythm patterns and staying with the original location. You upgrade to the KN7000. Only to discover when playing back the songs, you do not have the same rhythm pattern, it's now using the closest match pre-built rhythm on the KN7000, it maybe better and may not. If you sold the KN6000 it would be hard to get that same "FEEL" back.

SOLUTIION:
With Technics instruments you must plan ahead. Just copy the pre-built rhythm patterns that you are going to use in the composer memory using "composer pattern copy" and setup your style of playing as usual, but point to composer memory. Remember when saving, include composer. When played back on a KN7000 it will use the composer memory and the original rhythm pattern and the feel of the song will be intact.

Note: KN7000 owners, something to think about if you plan on upgrading to the next model.

Comments and feedback welcome. But please be gentle...

Anthony

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#48037 - 10/18/03 02:18 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Good advice Anthony - this point has been raised several times on the forum but worth repeating, just to jog the old grey cells
I know that Cees tried to start up a KN6xxx on KESO but did not get much support - maybe worth trying a PR Page ???
As an alternative, if you would like to share your PR songs with other PR owners, I would be willing to put them on the download page, on my website.

------------------
Willum
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#48038 - 10/18/03 02:19 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
cees Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/02
Posts: 533
Loc: The Netherlands
Hi Anthony,
you are quite right with your vision on this item. Every KN-keyboardist 'should' know this 'problem'. I myself had that problem too. In the enthousiasme with each new keyboard mostly one forget to think at the next version and start recording (maybe underneath this is given by the idea that each new keyboard is the last update Writing this down, I realize that this has happend till now: 7 times, woww )
Recently I advised the KESO-guestplayers to record their songs by the way you point at, to be ready for the next generation.
The only hope is that Technics does not have surprises in the hat on this isue
Regards,
Cees

[This message has been edited by cees (edited 10-18-2003).]
_________________________
Cees wink
Webmaster of Technics KN7000 Keso-songs, Keso-Café and Keso-Jukebox. You're welcome to visit http://www.keso.nl

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#48039 - 10/18/03 02:39 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
cees Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/02
Posts: 533
Loc: The Netherlands
Hi Bill, it seems we posted at the same time. Thanks for the hint , but I had already considered several options/choices when I created KESO. For me I will stick to the KN7000 (for most practical reason, for I myself have one) Secondly: as I pointed at in the post above, knowing myself, I must reckon with the idea that next year the KN8000 is coming and who knows ... (hope my wife doesnot read this ). If so, KESO will be ready for that too.
As a 'service' I developed the possibility for KN6-songs.
Regards,
Cees


Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Norrie:
....
I know that Cees tried to start up a KN6xxx on KESO but did not get much support - maybe worth trying a PR Page ??? ........
_________________________
Cees wink
Webmaster of Technics KN7000 Keso-songs, Keso-Café and Keso-Jukebox. You're welcome to visit http://www.keso.nl

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#48040 - 10/18/03 07:58 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
lahawk Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2198
Loc: Lehigh Valley, Pa.
Will saving the style and sound in a "Panel Memory" do the trick, or is "Composer Copy" the only solution? It is easier and faster to 'Set' a Panel Memory.
_________________________
Larry

" Always Do Whatever's Next "

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#48041 - 10/18/03 08:22 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
Gunnar Jonny Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/01/01
Posts: 3118
Loc: Norway
You have to copy the patterns into composer first, then you can
use the pan.mem. as you like.
Remeber to set pan.mem in expand mode.
GJ

Btw, if special sounds are in use, maybe edited internals,
they most as well be saved in soundbanks to get the right
playback.

[This message has been edited by Gunnar Jonny (edited 10-18-2003).]
_________________________
Cheers & Happy Playing. smile
GJ
_______________________________________________
"Success is not counted by how high you have climbed
but by how many you brought with you." (Wil Rose)

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#48042 - 10/18/03 11:03 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Thanks for the feedback everyone. I noticed the downloaded songs (not all) use the pre-built location on the KN. What made me think twice and why I posted this tip, was the players also included the composer file but it was not being used.

Maybe the person was thinking by including the composer file it will include the pre-built rhythms. I just wanted to inform the people here that that isn't so. A little work is required to copy the pre-built patterns into the composer first. Include the Composer when saving, and it will be there for other models.

Another reason for bringing this up, is if the player plans to distribute their work to others having different models, well I think you get the point.

Something else that's closely related to this that should be noted. The PADS also follows this rule. If you want that particular pre-built pad to sound in another model, you must copy it to the user Pads area (Phrase Copy). Then when saving, include the Pads. Again I noticed people including the pads file, but to find out the songs played through are just using the pre-built pads.

Then too, it just maybe the way people save their work, just by saving "ALL" regardless if used or not.

Just tips, don't take this wrong way.

Anthony

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#48043 - 10/18/03 11:13 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
lahawk Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2198
Loc: Lehigh Valley, Pa.
Why do you have to copy the patterns in composer first? Is this step really necessary?

Maybe I have been doing it wrong, but if I want to use a built in rythmn, and add any sound (custom or built in), I just "Set" it in Panel Memory.

I used this method for recording on the 3000, and when played back on the 7000, it sounded decent, although certainly not nearly as good as the original recording on the 3000.

Will using the Composer Copy insure better accuracy? I always thought, that if there is too big of a "gap" in keyboards, that the original recording in the lower end keyboard will not sound very good on an upper end keyboard, no matter how you save your song. That is to say a 3000 recording, played on a 7000 is going to be "off", no matter the technique used.

However if you record on a later model, like the 6000, and play that 6000 recording on the 7000, the 7000 has a much better chance of "reading" the intended style, sounds, etc. Obviously, there is a much smaller "gap" in the 6000 to 7000, compared with the 3000 to 7000..too much technology between keyboards. The 7000 has to guess to your intent in all cases, but has a better chance with more compatable keyboards. Am I wrong about this ?

Are you saying that using Composer Copy before saving to panel memory will eliminate that gap in keyboards, and by using Composer Copy, before saving to panel memory, will give an accurate rendition of your original recording ?

If all this is true, do I have to save to panel memory after using composer copy, or is composer copy the only step needed? If we have to use composer copy, then panel save, in my opinion, that's too much work. It may be easier to "edit" on the upper end keyboard, then to go through all that trouble.

Thanks
Larry Hawk

Thanks,
Larry Hawk
_________________________
Larry

" Always Do Whatever's Next "

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#48044 - 10/18/03 11:16 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
Bud Whipple Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 480
Loc: The Plantation, Leesburg, Flor...
Personally, I always copy a style into the composer and work on it there. While Gunnar uses expand mode when saving the style, I don't do that unless I'm using the sequencer and moving from variation to variation with the panel memory buttons via the foor switch. When just dressing up a style or getting them ready for future recording, normal mode is my choice. That way, tempo and variation settings remain constant while changing from one pm to another. Sound levels or balances can be set in with the instrument of choice with each pm setting, including special "voices" which should be saved in sound memory, like Gunnar states. You cannot save sounds into memory from expansion boards and have them reproduce exactly on a keyboard that does not have the expansion board. I found out the hard way while recording a kn6000 song from a kn6500 to a cd recorder - garbled sound! I had to stop in the middle of the recording, go home and sequence the song with another instrument. What a bummer. I thought if I included the sound into sound memory, it would reproduce okay, but the School of Hard Knocks sent me to summer school and I learned the proper way. I still think that if an instrument is included in sound memory then when the style is loaded, sound memory would have all the necessary information to reproduce that particular sound. However............! Alec told us a long time ago to experiment with features you're not really familiar with because you won't hurt the keyboard, but most players shy away from that way of learning for one reason or another. It's easier to play along and do what you are familiar with, I suppose, but somewhere along the line you'll hit a learning plateau. Then one has to hit the books, take lessons or end up snagged at that level while others pass you by. I learned that lesson on the guitar. Without professional guidance I would never get beyond mediocre, so I gave it up and took up organs and keyboards. I still haven't had lessons, but I practice a lot more. What's that old saying about an old dog and new tricks?

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#48045 - 10/18/03 11:20 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi Willum:

Thanks for the offer on posting my PR songs on your website. I'm in transison from PR900 to (have someone converting) PR902, then to PR804. Finding out, I have to adjust the octaves, sounds, and vol settings, takes some doing. When the dust settles I may take up on your offer.

Clarification on the previous post. I noticed I said "another or other models". To have files loaded in other models, first it has to be compatible which means the next model up. Don't want to give the impression doing the tip it will be backward compatible. This is only forward compatible. And as Cees puts it, only hope that Technics does not have surprises in the hat on this issue.

That did happen on the PR804. PR900 and earlier model files are not 100% compatible with the PR804. That's why I have to get the PR900 files converted to either PR902 or PR903 first.

Anthony

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#48046 - 10/18/03 11:39 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi Larry:

The intent of the "TIP" is targeting the pre-built rhythm pattern only. I'm not familar what the KN rhythm patterns have, so I'll just use an example.

Lets say you record using a KN6000 pre-built rhythm Foxtrot, keeping the pre-built location. You use panel memory to store it, and record your song. What is saved in panel memory is the location and where foxtrot resides. Not the actual beat.

Now take that recording and load it in a KN7000, you are not going to get that exact Foxtrot that was on the KN6000. You will get the KN7000 Foxtrot, it maybe slightly different, completing different or in some cases the same(there have been repeated patterns).

If you like a rat-a-tat-tat and want to keep it, you must copy it to the composer. If not, the different model may have dat-o-dat-toot.

Hope this helps explain it.

Anthony

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#48047 - 10/18/03 12:23 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi again Larry:

You asked: Why do you have to copy the patterns in composer first? Is this step really necessary?

You have to ask yourself another question first. The answer to that question will answer your question...

Ask yourself this; Do you like the pre-built rhythm pattern that is being used in the song, and you want to keep that exact rhythm pattern in the song if you ever upgrade to the next model? If the answer is yes, then the answer to your question is yes. Not that it's required, but for your benefit in having that particular rhythm available when loaded.

Anthony

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#48048 - 10/18/03 12:36 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
lahawk Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2198
Loc: Lehigh Valley, Pa.
Hi Anthony,

That explains it very well.

So the proper way to record and save a song is to use composer copy. Panel Memory is only needed if using the Panel Memory settings. Correct?


Using Composer Copy, are you also saying that the upper end keyboard will play exactly the way the lower ended keyboard recorded it?

Can MSA be used after "composer copying" the rythmn pattern?

I guess the best way is to try it as I still have both the 3000 along with the 7000. I'll let you know my results.

Bill your right, expansion board sounds played on a keyboard without the expansion board, sound well...let's put it this way...close to, but not nearly the same. I suppose, if a non expanded keyboard could copy the exact sound from an expansion board, Technics would not sell many expansion boards. I personally find Expansion Boards a bit over rated. There are sound disks available, and while probably not quite as good as expansion boards, you can't beat the price. There are some really fine Sound Disks available that rival some Expansion Boards.

SeeYa
Larry Hawk
_________________________
Larry

" Always Do Whatever's Next "

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#48049 - 10/18/03 12:43 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
Gunnar Jonny Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/01/01
Posts: 3118
Loc: Norway
Larry, you have a really good chanche to see
what differences it really can be when not use
the pattercopy to composer.
Just see the differences in the stylesection, and
the result may be totally wrong if you playback the
piece saved on KN3 at your KN7.
GJ
_________________________
Cheers & Happy Playing. smile
GJ
_______________________________________________
"Success is not counted by how high you have climbed
but by how many you brought with you." (Wil Rose)

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#48050 - 10/18/03 02:53 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi Larry:

Larry asks: So the proper way to record and save a song is to use composer copy?

Reply: If you like a particular rhythm pattern and don't want to part from it when getting a new model, the answer then is yes.
---

Larry asks: Panel Memory is only needed if using the Panel Memory settings. Correct?

Reply: Panel memory will stilll need to be used as usual, but not programmed to the location where the pre-built patterns are, but programmed to the composer location instead.
---

Larry asks: Using Composer Copy, are you also saying that the upper end keyboard will play exactly the way the lower ended keyboard recorded it?

Reply: What your trying to accomplish by copying the pre-built patterns to the composer is that these rhythms will be available when loaded in the next model up. Done correctly the answer is yes.
---

Larry asks: Can MSA be used after "composer copying" the rythmn pattern?

Reply: Depends on the model. If PR900, the answer would be no, but on PR804 the answer is yes. Model dependent... Not sure on the KN models...
---

As you said, and since you do have a KN3000. Take a KN3000 song you have that's using a pre-built rhythm location. Listen to it closely. Now load it in the KN7000, what do you hear? Is it using the exact same rhythm pattern? Different? If the KN3000 song had the pre-built rhythm pattern in the composer, then you would have the "Exact" pattern.

Anthony

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#48051 - 10/18/03 09:38 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
lahawk Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2198
Loc: Lehigh Valley, Pa.
Anthony and Company,

Thanks for the tips. After using composer copy on a built in rythmn pattern, I recorded a song on the 3000 and played it on the 7000, and the rythmn was near perfect.

However..you don't want to know about the Right 1 and/or Right 2 "sound"...but I'm going to tell you anyway...ha...lets say...it's not so good. A mello sax sounds like a kazoo...editing is definetly in order..probably a lower octave change is needed.

Other then that, I'm glad for this post, it has reminded me, and hopefully others the importance of recording from composer memory.

Thanks Again
Larry Hawk
_________________________
Larry

" Always Do Whatever's Next "

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#48052 - 10/18/03 11:33 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi Larry.

About the R1 and R2 thing... That's because of the KN3000 built in sounds vs the KN7000 built in sounds converting process. This would happen anyway. A fork in the road that can have it's own discussion...

I'm getting my PR900 songs converted first in PR902 format then in PR804. I have to adjust the R1 and R2 One octave lower, and the Left one Octave Higher to get the original octaves back.

You know this is the tip of the iceburg, once you have the pre-built rhythm patterns in the composer, you are now able to tweak these some that was not possible doing it the other way. Say Accomp 2 had a flute, and you wish it was a sax, you can change it, and have that sax.

One thing you need to be aware of, if you use a memory sound, make sure you save it, that's the *.tm file.

Have you checked out the MSA using the composer? I have more info on this and will post later if your interested...

Anthony

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#48053 - 10/19/03 12:06 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi again Larry:

Larry said: "After using composer copy on a built in rhythm pattern, I recorded a song on the KN3000 and played it on the KN7000, and the rythmn was near perfect."

Reply: What exactly were you comparing when you said "near perfect"? If you compared the rhythm pattern that was saved on the KN3000 composer to the KN7000 composer. Comparing the same rhythm but on the different models, then yes there will be a slight difference but that's because of the difference between the two models. Which is expected with Technics instruments.

Since you have the KN3000 and KN7000 handy do the compare like this:

Load a KN3000 song using the pre-built rhythm pattern location. Now take that same song and load it on the KN7000. On both units, turn off the play feature. First, using the KN3000, play the APC only and get a feel of the beat pattern, try all variations for that particular beat. Turn the KN3000 off, and now do the same on the KN7000. Do you notice the difference in the rhythm pattern between the two? This is what needs comparing...

Anthony

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#48054 - 10/19/03 03:46 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
When using a copied built-in style from an earlier KN, via the Composer, the actual rhythmic patterns within the style will be the same. However, since the actual instrument voice samples used within the style will be different on the two KNs, the overall sound of the transferred style will be slightly different. This will probably be most evident in the KN3000 / KN7000 comparison, where the KN7000 samples are in most cases, better than the KN3000. You would probably notice less difference between KN6xxx and KN7000.
I'm not saying that a piano will become a flute or a trumpet become strings the actual instrument assignments will remain the same - just probably better quality on the newer KN.
Another thing to be aware of - if you are transferring a Composer style from an earlier KN and that style has been edited to include one or more voices from Sound Memory, then the Sound Memory must also be transferred to the later KN. If this is not done, then some very strange effects may result, depending on which sounds are resident in the later KN's Sound Memory, at the particular location accessed by the style
Again, since the Basic sound samples used in the edited Composer style of the earlier KN will differ from the Basic sound samples in the later KN, there will be a difference in the sound, or sounds, when the style is played on the later KN.

------------------
Willum
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#48055 - 10/19/03 09:27 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Thanks Bill for putting this in another perspective.

The "sounding" qualities are going to be different when using different models just the fact that these are different models. The R1, R2 and Left will show a difference in sound quality anyway regardless if the composer is used or not. If the composer is used, then it will show some differences there as well, mainly due to the sound samples that's on the KN3000 vs the KN7000. But the rhythm pattern will remain the same.

It's a Technics thing that we have try to make the best of.

Anthony

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#48056 - 10/19/03 11:40 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
lahawk Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2198
Loc: Lehigh Valley, Pa.
I know nothing about Yamaha Keyboards, so my question is:

Do Yamaha Owners have the same problems as above?

Do lower end model Yamaha recordings play on upper end Yamaha keyboards?

Do they have to use the Composer Copy method similar to Technics?

Do they have an Easy Record function as Technics ?

That's enough about Yamaha, in fact way too much !

Just Curious,
Larry Hawk
_________________________
Larry

" Always Do Whatever's Next "

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#48057 - 10/19/03 01:10 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi Larry:

Can't help you with the Yamaha thing, never had one.

How are you coming along with composer thing? Any questions?

Anthony

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#48058 - 10/19/03 02:16 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
lahawk Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2198
Loc: Lehigh Valley, Pa.
Thanks to you and others, I now understand why composer copy is necessary for recording.

There is still much to learn

Editing a Preset Rythmn Pattern

I would like to copy other patterns availble when ONE TOUCH PLAY is selected.

Example: I can copy from the sound group TRAD & SHOW TIME > FOXTROT. However there are many more sub catagories that are available under FOXTROT when I select One Touch Play. An example of a FOXTROT sub catagory would be CAFE ALTO .

Composer Copy only allows me to copy FOXTROT.

CAFE ALTO is not available in the Composer Copy. Is there a way to copy CAFE ALTO into composer ?


Sequencer to Composer Copy

I would like to "composer copy" some of the rythmn patterns I have on floppies. Not quite sure how this is done

Recording a completly new rythmn pattern

No idea...I'll save that complicted task for later.

Well..arn't you glad that you asked ?

Thanks to you and everyone for your help for us new to composer copy.

Am I the only one with questions ?

Thanks
Larry Hawk
_________________________
Larry

" Always Do Whatever's Next "

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#48059 - 10/19/03 03:34 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi Larry, I guess your the only one asking the questions?

About ONE TOUCH PLAY:
Using your example, One Touch Play is using the Foxtrot variation 2, the exact same one if you press the MSA button and press variation 2. One Touch Play just names it CAFE ALTO. Go to another rhythm pattern and choose variaton 4, now click on the One Touch Play and see, it ends up on variation 2 and a given name. Click on the MSA button and it matches.

About Sequencer to Composer Copy:
You didn't mention the format the files are in on your disks. Midi? Technics?

About recording a completly new rythmn pattern:
Here you make your very own rhythm pattern "FROM SCRATCH".

Anthony

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#48060 - 10/20/03 05:14 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
waterschip Offline
Member

Registered: 03/15/02
Posts: 118
Loc: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
Hi,
after reading this all for security I have a guestion. For own build styles in the composer and saved in p.m. do you need to copy them to by composer copy??

rgds.
Willem

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#48061 - 10/20/03 06:35 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
Gunnar Jonny Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/01/01
Posts: 3118
Loc: Norway
Quote:
Originally posted by waterschip:
..... For own build styles in the composer and saved in p.m. do you need to copy them to by composer copy??


Then I guess the styles are already in the
composer, but remember to save the .cmp file
as well, if you not already use the "all"
function by saving your files.
GJ
_________________________
Cheers & Happy Playing. smile
GJ
_______________________________________________
"Success is not counted by how high you have climbed
but by how many you brought with you." (Wil Rose)

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#48062 - 10/20/03 02:00 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Since Panel memories only POINT to the style being used, they will only be 'saved' automatically if they are built-in styles. If you have used Composer or Custom styles in your set-up, then you must save them using the options on page 2 of the Save dialog. Failing to do this, will result in an incorrect style being used , when the file is loaded at a later time, since the panel memories will POINT to a particular Custom or Composer location, which could contain anything

------------------
Willum
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#48063 - 10/20/03 03:36 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
lahawk Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2198
Loc: Lehigh Valley, Pa.
Thanks Anthony,

Your simple to understand expanations makes me think maybe you should write a Technics Manual for Dummies.

I was referring to a Technics File on the sequencer to compose copy question. I have a lot of nice Technic songs with rythmn patterns that I would like to copy and save for future use.

Thanks All
Larry Hawk
_________________________
Larry

" Always Do Whatever's Next "

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#48064 - 10/20/03 05:14 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
Audrey Turner Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/19/02
Posts: 1080
Loc: Cambridge, Cambs, England
Wow!

I have just read all the comments on composer recording for past and present KNs.

Have I been missing something all these years? I think not, all I do is make sure I am in the Expand Mode, go to page 3 and save "ALL". I can't say I've noticed much difference in the original to the updated recordings, but then I am definitely not a professional.

However, I have to say all your comments have given me 'food for thought'

Keep up the chat lads and lassies.

Aud

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#48065 - 10/20/03 07:43 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Helloooo Larry:

About the Seqencer to Composer Copy:
Not sure if I'm understanding you correctly. Or if you understand the function of Seq to comp copy correctly. If you have a Technics file to begin with, then it is already in composer APC format, which is Technics.

Can you explain this a little more on what you have in mind? It will help me understand where you are coming from.

Thanks,

Anthony

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#48066 - 10/20/03 08:49 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi Audrey:

You said, "...all I do is make sure I am in the Expand Mode, go to page 3 and save "ALL". I can't say I've noticed much difference in the original to the updated recordings, but then I am definitely not a professional..."

Say you have a KN2000, and you use the stored rhythm pattern "Piano Pop". You set the panel memory to "point" to the stored location where Piano Pop is normally located on the KN2000. You record the song, then you save it, using ALL.

Doing it this way the panel memory saved the information of pointing to the KN2000's stored Piano Pop pattern. You did use the "ALL" when saved which did indeed saved the composer, but not Piano Pop. Just the default prebuilt patterns that resides there. Your using Piano Pop in the KN2000's stored location, no need to save the composer since Piano Pop wasn't copied there.

For example: Lets take that same song, and load it on a KN3000. Guess what, the KN3000 does not have Piano Pop, what will the KN3000 use? The panel memory will be pointing to the best match pattern it can find on one of the stored rhythm patterns on KN3000, and may use 16btballadpop. The song will be played, but not using the KN2000 Piano Pop rhythm.

Lets take that same KN2000 song, and load it on a KN5000. Which does have a Piano Pop, but it is totally different then the one on the KN2000, totally!

You said, "Have I been missing something all these years? I think not."

I guess it just depends on the expectations of the original arranger of the music. One may not notice a difference in rhythm patterns and if there is, so what. But the other person has got to have that same pattern because it was the original, and without it, well it wouldn't be an original.

Anthony

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#48067 - 10/20/03 09:33 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
For those who don't have two KN's at the same time to compare, let's simulate it.

I have an idea: I don't have a KN7000 to do this so I'll need someone to do it. Any volunteers? Or any Technics expert who already has something similar describe below and is ready to send, can that be used?

I have a KN2000 prebuilt piano pop pattern converted in KN7000. It will be named 01KN2000.cmp.

I also have a KN5000 prebuilt piano pop pattern converted in KN7000. It will be named 02KN5000.cmp.

I'll send these to the volunteer and he/she can record a short tune, using the exact melody for each. Send to or post to whoever wants it.

Imagine 01KN2000 is the original tune from what else a KN2000. If the person uses the KN2000 panel memory to point to the stored piano pop pattern. When this is played on a KN5000, what you will hear is the KN5000 piano pop stored pattern which is 02KN5000.

Just a thought, hope this doesn't confuse things worse.

Anthony

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#48068 - 10/21/03 02:45 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 4243
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Larry,
even though yamaha may be easier to use in certain functions, I still prefer to use a kn, it offers much more in the way of features when it comes to style creation, sequencing, sound editing etc

They just work differently.

Quote:
Originally posted by lahawk:
I know nothing about Yamaha Keyboards, so my question is:

Do lower end model Yamaha recordings play on upper end Yamaha keyboards?
Yes, but to a certain degree you still end up with volume & sounds not being 100% identical on lower & upper end keyboards and prior models.

Do they have to use the Composer Copy method similar to Technics?
I would say no, as a yamaha sequence is actually recorded as a midifile.

Do they have an Easy Record function as Technics ?
They have their own version.

That's enough about Yamaha, in fact way too much !

Just Curious,
Larry Hawk


best wishes
Rikki

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 10-21-2003).]
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki

Korg PA4x, Korg PA3X, PSR S950, Band in a Box 2016
V Arranger/Ketron SD2

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#48069 - 10/21/03 03:27 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 4243
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi,
when using a custom style, in your sequence, it can also cause a hassle ie
Joe Bloggs might have the original set of custom styles loaded into his kn7. So he decides to do an original recording of a song he's written using custom style
( no 1 ) 8 beat.

Meanwhile Freddy Nerk has been having a wonderful time sorting all his custom styles and rearranging them to suit himself.

When Joe Bloggs saved his song, he forgot to save the custom style set. He's never touched his, so to him , his custom styles are as common to him as are his inbuilt styles.

Meanwhile Fred Nerk loads his friends brand new original composition that he's so proud of. But instead of hearing the song as an 8 beat (as recorded by Joe) Fred NErk is hearing the song as a March( remember , he's been changing & moving his custom styles around).
Fred doesn't want to hurt Joes feelings about his thought on the new composition, so he justs shuts up , and thinks to himself, it's about time Joe got a new hobby.


Again it's a problem easily fixed by taking Anothony's advice save your styles to composer. In this case you're copying your custom style to one of the 3 composer memories.

Remember Custom styles are NOT compatitable between different model keyboards. Also if you're chopping & changing the locations ( sorting) your custom styles, you need to save the custom style set as part of your song. In the long run if you're sharing your sequences, it would probably be easier to copy the custom style into the composer and save it that way.

best wishes
Rikki

p.s. I'm sort of back. Got a lot of catching up to do. Missed you guys. I'm now one of those dreadful creatures called a
"MOTHER IN LAW"
Son got married on the weekend. Houshold will hopefully be back to normal after the weekend, when the last of the relatives leave. (haahaa)
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki

Korg PA4x, Korg PA3X, PSR S950, Band in a Box 2016
V Arranger/Ketron SD2

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#48070 - 10/21/03 09:30 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi Rikki:

Thanks for your feedback on this.

I guess too, it would be hard for the people to understand if they just started using Technics for the first time, or never got the next model. When having one KN, who thinks of those things. UNTIL YOU GET THE SECOND ONE! Then the person will find out the "hard way" that the rhythm patterns don't match and the song doesn't have that particular rhythm it had on the prior model.

If the prior model was kept then there's some hope, but if you have a lot of song files and want to match it, well there's alot of work to be done, but possible. But if the person traded the older model and doesn't have it... Well then I guess it's a hunting we will go a hunting we will go...

I lucked out sort of. I got my first taste on a Technics PR305 at the parish I attend. I liked it, played for the parish, and got the next newwer model that came out which was the PR900. I recorded songs at the parish using the PR305, but when played at home on the PR900, it was different, not the same rhythm pattern. Doing my homework and reading the manual, I experimented with copying to composer, and having the the panel memories point there. BINGO! When played on the PR900, got that old time religion back. Amen...

Just trying to save the great folks here any disappointments when or if they upgrade.

Anthony

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#48071 - 10/22/03 01:56 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 3198
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AnthonyCian:
[B]Hi Rikki:

Just trying to save the great folks here any disappointments when or if they upgrade.

Yes, there is a lot of work to be done, and more to learn, but------after working my way through six Technics keyboards my arrangements/sequences are better than ever, and my knowledge has grown also. Each keyboard has forced me to learn and grow.

Isn't this what it's all about--learning and creating, and learning.

IMHO John C.

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#48072 - 10/22/03 06:10 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
lahawk Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2198
Loc: Lehigh Valley, Pa.
Anthony & Gang,
On the Sequencer to Composer Memory..

On my KN300O It states:
"Data from the SEQUENCER can be copied to a COMPOSER memory. For example, you can use a rythmn pattern on a song disk as the automatic accompaniament for you own performance"

If I understand you correctly, you said that when a song is loaded, it is inserted in composer memory automatically.

So what is the purpose of the Technics manual having a chapter on Sequencer to Composer? A chapter, by the way, that is confusing, at least to me. It gets into measure copy, transposing, track assignment, etc..all in the Sequencer to Composer Copy chapter.

Slightly Confused about Sequencer to Composer Copy,
Larry Hawk


[This message has been edited by lahawk (edited 10-22-2003).]
_________________________
Larry

" Always Do Whatever's Next "

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#48073 - 10/22/03 07:19 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi Larry:

You mentioned: On my KN300O It states:
"Data from the SEQUENCER can be copied to a COMPOSER memory. For example, you can use a rythmn pattern on a song disk as the automatic accompaniament for you own performance"

Reply: To my understanding, the data it's talking about is a MIDI file or SMF sequencer. Load a MIDI file, and look at all those tracks playing. It is possible to convert those in Technics format APC style, using the seq to composer copy.

You said: If I understand you correctly, you said that when a song is loaded, it is inserted in composer memory automatically.

Reply: If it's in Technic's format (APC)files and if the file loaded includes the file *.cmp. Then YES...

There are other people here on the forum that are more knowledgable in using the sequencer function. Maybe they can spread more light on the this subject.

Anthony

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#48074 - 10/22/03 03:04 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 4243
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Larry,
there's obviously some confusion as what sequencer to composer function does.
It really has nothing to do with your normal sequences ie when you record a song using your auto accompaniment.

What you have to keep in mind is that the sequencer in our kn7's can also be used for multi track recording ie you can record onto 16 individual tracks ( from scratch)ie record your own bassline , your own drum tracks, your own guitar strums, your own string lines , in short you can record a whole composition WITHOUT using any of the inbuilt styles.
Also you can load General Midi files into our kn's ( songs)created from other sources ie other keyboards ( like the psr's, roland, korg etc or from midifiles created in p.c. sequencers)
These midifiles usually use between 1 to 16 of the sequencer tracks ( the same as my example above on multi track recording)

Where the seq to composer function comes in, is that you can pick ( example only) 4 bars within that mulitrack sequence and create a composer part ( variation) out of those 4 bars. Or just say the midifile had a great intro & ending, you could pick the intro bars & actually create an Intro composer part for a new style.
Example Only.
Just say you wanted to play the song "Memory" ( from Cats) and you'd come across a midifile version of the song. You've created a style( the 4 variations) using "easy composer" that works for the song, but still haven't got an intro/Ending .
Solution is to load the midifile ( Memory)into the kn sequencer. Use the seq to composer function and create an Intro/Ending from that midifile.
Admitedly that's a simplistic explanation, but it can be done.
Doing the 4 composer variations from midifile ( songs) is a bit more difficult, because midifile songs usually have chord changes in them, therefore creating some problems.(Chord changes aren't a problem in Intro's & Endings only in parts you want to use for the 4 variations)

By the way, I'm still hoping to maybe get some sort of a workshop on styles going ( for those who may be interested) I'm no expert on the subject , but, hopefully between us,( me with a tiny bit of technical know how & you guys with musical skills) maybe we can get ourselves some new styles to share.

The last of the wedding guests will be leaving early next week, so then I'll have some of my free time back and I can get back to my keyboard.


best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by lahawk:
[B]Anthony & Gang,
On the Sequencer to Composer Memory..
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki

Korg PA4x, Korg PA3X, PSR S950, Band in a Box 2016
V Arranger/Ketron SD2

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#48075 - 10/22/03 04:07 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Thanks Rikki for jumping in and explaining the seq to comp thing. I know the function of the Seq To Comp Copy, I just can't explain it in words to good.

Overview:

Seq to Comp Copy is taking particular tracks of MIDI type files and in those particluar tracks a section of measures, then copying it in the Composer APC , aka Accomp1, Bass, etc.

APC to SMF convert is the opposite. It takes the APC composer parts and converts it to individual tracks in MIDI style.

Note: With Seq To Comp Copy this is perferred to be done in sections, or pieces because of the chord changes. APC TO SMF Convert goes through the convert process from the begining of the song to the end.

Did I put it in words ok...???

Anthony

[This message has been edited by AnthonyCian (edited 10-22-2003).]

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#48076 - 10/22/03 11:17 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 4243
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Anthony,
I would say "Spot On".

Seq to Composer is done in small sections. It's actually based on the number of bars you want your composer patterns to be. You could actually have a 1 bar variation pattern, but it would sound very repetative. I would normally try and find a 2 to 4 bars for a variation, 1 bar fills, Intro & Endings are based on the actual length they happen to be.
For the 4 variations( only), the hardest part is transposing the tracks parts you're using, so that they are all based on the same chord. ie if you have 4 bars with a chord change in each bar cmaj/fmaj/cmaj/gmaj, you'd be inclined to transpose the fmaj & gmaj parts so that they became a cmaj part. Sometimes transposing works, sometimes it doesn't sound quite right..

I personally have used the seq to composer for my Band in a Box Styles & my PSR styles which I saved as a midifile with NO chord changes in the parts I was going to use for the 4 variations for my style. Makes it so much easier.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AnthonyCian:
[B]Thanks Rikki for jumping in and explaining the seq to comp thing. I know the function of the Seq To Comp Copy, I just can't explain it in words to good.

Overview:

Seq to Comp Copy is taking particular tracks of MIDI type files and in those particluar tracks a section of measures, then copying it in the Composer APC , aka Accomp1, Bass, etc.

APC to SMF convert is the opposite. It takes the APC composer parts and converts it to individual tracks in MIDI style.

Note: With Seq To Comp Copy this is perferred to be done in sections, or pieces because of the chord changes. APC TO SMF Convert goes through the convert process from the begining of the song to the end.

Did I put it in words ok...???

Anthony
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki

Korg PA4x, Korg PA3X, PSR S950, Band in a Box 2016
V Arranger/Ketron SD2

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#48077 - 10/23/03 06:02 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
lahawk Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2198
Loc: Lehigh Valley, Pa.
Yes...I'm only SLIGHTLY confused now.

Larry Hawk
_________________________
Larry

" Always Do Whatever's Next "

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#48078 - 10/24/03 02:36 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
waterschip Offline
Member

Registered: 03/15/02
Posts: 118
Loc: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rikkisbears:

if you have 4 bars with a chord change in each bar cmaj/fmaj/cmaj/gmaj, you'd be inclined to transpose the fmaj & gmaj parts so that they became a cmaj part. Sometimes transposing works, sometimes it doesn't sound quite right..
[QUOTE]

In that way you know already the chords in that particular part. copy that part into the composer and for each part without transposing you to that manualy in the composer itself.
ie. from fmaj to cmaj. Getting Cmaj from Fmaj you have to lower 4 semitones (you can find this out on your keyboard).
If you are at the asterix which highlighted the chord and i.e. you see the F lower with the down arrow 4 times and the C note is highlighted in the screen press OK and then for the following note of the chord press the right button than the A or C note of the chord (still on the same asterix) is highlighted. press down 4 times and press ok. and so on.

rgds.
Willem

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#48079 - 10/24/03 02:59 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 4243
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Willem,
amazing how we've all developed our own method of doing things.
I normally do any editing while it's still in midifile format on a p.c. sequencer or else on the kn7 while it's still in the the sequencer stage ie jobs like transposing, changing velocities , etc before I use the seq to composer function.
Editing in the composer sounds like a good way to fine tune the style.

Thanks Willem

best wishes
Rikki
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki

Korg PA4x, Korg PA3X, PSR S950, Band in a Box 2016
V Arranger/Ketron SD2

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#48080 - 10/28/03 10:04 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
shcox Offline
Member

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 296
Loc: Leesburg, FL USA
Hi Anthony,

What a great discussion this is!

I for one would be very interested in trying some of your PR songs. I traded in my KN6000 for a PR54. I don't know how compatible it would be with your PRs but I've found that all my style disks and music disks from my KN6000 and the ones I download for the KN7000 work just fine.

I laugh when I think about going from a High End Keyboard to a Low End Piano but it has so many of the KN features that I barely miss anything. With about 50 style disks I have plenty of varity. I just have to spend a couple of minutes finding and loading a style and since I only play at home that's not a problem. The bigger amp, speakers and weighted keys are wonderful.

I do hope that someone will start a discussion group for the PR series since I looked all over the net and I can find anything about the PR54 except the normal ads and the technics lit.

(Sorry if this comes through twice the first one did not look as if it was submitted)
_________________________
Heather- Leesburg, FL PR54

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#48081 - 10/28/03 08:30 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi shcox:

Yes this topic did get a pretty good discussion going.

About Technics PR models, I come to learn that the PR's are not as popular as the KN models. Because of that, there's not that many resources to find for discussions and help and all that.

Here on the this forum is the closest you will get with PR model discussions, there are some PR owners here, but most all have the KN's. But the KN owners are very friendly and will help the best they can. The PR's and KN's do have similar features, but yet different.

Not sure if the PR804 format styles will work on your PR model. I still have my PR900 curious on that too. When I get a chance I'll send you some to try.

Also, and curious. Does your PR54 have NX? This is a special technics midi file.

Anthony


[This message has been edited by AnthonyCian (edited 10-28-2003).]

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#48082 - 10/29/03 01:48 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
waterschip Offline
Member

Registered: 03/15/02
Posts: 118
Loc: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
Hi Rikki,
Quote:
I normally do any editing while it's still in midifile format on a p.c."

Maybe that is a more comfortable way of doing it. A bigger screen and the real notes instead of asterix's.
But if you don't have a sequencer programm or your pc isn't next to your keyboard than the way I do it will work too. But you have to concentrate more otherwise you become confused by all the asterix's. So as you mentioned maybe there are other persons who use an other method we can try out to find the best suitable way.

rgds.
Willem

Thanks Willem

best wishes
Rikki[/B]

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#48083 - 10/29/03 11:37 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 4243
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Willum,
I've also used the kn7 sequencer functions for editing midifiles too ( after loading them into the sequencer and before using the seq to composer function) . ie transposing track parts, changing track velocities, the drum edit window is great ( haven't really experimented with the note edit window yet).

My real enjoyment is fiddling round trying to work out how to make things work. I enjoy experimenting. ( I gave up on my musical capabilities years ago.(haahaa)

Admittedly, I do have a laptop, which I normally have attached to my kn.

best wishes
Rikki


Quote:
Originally posted by waterschip:
Hi Rikki,



But if you don't have a sequencer programm or your pc isn't next to your keyboard than the way I do it will work too.
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki

Korg PA4x, Korg PA3X, PSR S950, Band in a Box 2016
V Arranger/Ketron SD2

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#48084 - 10/29/03 11:56 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
shcox Offline
Member

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 296
Loc: Leesburg, FL USA
Hi Anthony,

Yes it has NX sound and GM2 and can load SMF 0/1, SMF with lyrics and DOC*1 files.

The biggest 2 features I've found that the PR54 does not have that my KN6000 had (besides only being 64 note polyphonic) are the Performance Pads and the 20 Custom Style Memory Locations for Storing Custom Styles but it does have the 3 Custom Style Memory locations used when a song is loaded with a Custom Style. This is also used to load and play the many styles I have on disks from the KN series. They all play and sound great on the PR54. It has a quick load feature so you just press and hold the Custom Memory button and it reads the disk in the drive with the styles on it. The nice part about this feature is that it only loads the style and not all the other setting that are loaded when you press the Disk-Load-Load buttons.

I'm sure there may be others but these are the ones I miss.

It also incluses the USB port and the same Song Manager and Recorder software that come with the KN7000.

Oh, it doesn't have the voice Harmonizer either which I never used.

Best Regards
_________________________
Heather- Leesburg, FL PR54

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#48085 - 10/29/03 05:54 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hello shcox,

Yes, the KN's and PR's can have the same features and totally different ones. Just depends on what the person desires, sometimes it can be difficult to decide. Main thing is cost, and what the instrument is going to be used for.

Some may want a stationary piano which won't be moved around a lot. Have kids and if they are having private piano lessons, it's good to have the full keyboard of 88 keys. Adds a nice touch on home decore.

On the other hand, if the person is performing and moves around a lot, then something more portable is desired. If the house is small, or may just have no room for a larger unit. The KN is a good candidate.

I believe the KN's do have more features than the PR's. Which I may break down later and get the next KN model that comes out. Only if it's an 8000 type, if it's a 7500 then I may wait. With KN's, one has to get speakers, foot switches, and a stool. With PR's that all comes in the package. Probably why it has less features, to make up on costs.

Anthony

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#48086 - 10/29/03 06:14 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 4243
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Anthony & shcox,
a few years back , I swapped the KN5 for a pr602 ( I needed a piano, instead of a keyboard) The only features that my PR 602 didn't have was the pads and the custom memory.

Strangely enough, if I try and load only the composer( .cmp)(no sounds or panel memory etc) part of a pr602 style into my kn7 it works, so quite possibly your pr composer styles may also work in the kn7.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AnthonyCian:
[B]Hi shcox:
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki

Korg PA4x, Korg PA3X, PSR S950, Band in a Box 2016
V Arranger/Ketron SD2

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#48087 - 10/29/03 06:59 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi Rikki:

Been awhile since we chatted last. Has the dust settled down now with wedding?

Interesting about the PR804 composer maybe compatible. The PR900 composer was the only file that could load in PR804, had to get the other types converted using a PR902.

You know, looking at all this compatibility thing. Wouldn't it be easier for Technics to adopt the Software industry standard of being backward compatible???

That is, when you have MS Word 2002, or Excel 2002, and you want to save it for others that have Word/Excel 97, all you do is pick from the dropdown, find 97, and bingo it's a 97 file. Granted it looses some features from the 2002 version but at least it can be read.

Take that same concept with Technics, and if a person has a KN7000 who would like to have his friend who has a KN5000 hear his music. All the person has to do when saving, is choose from a list of KN's and the KN7000 will save in that model's format. After all, the KN7000 will understand and know what the other KN's has.

Ditto on the PR models.

Oh well, again one of my many "wishful thinkings"...

Anthony

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#48088 - 10/30/03 12:52 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 4243
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Anthony,
yes, the last of the guests left on Monday. It was pretty hectic, as we had 7 staying ( including a 4 month & 3 year old babies, plus the son & new daughter in law's pet cockateil ( parrot). He was the noisiest of the lot (haahaa)

Back to normal at last.

Actually it would be great if you could send me a composer file at some stage, just to see if it would work. It might mean that the piano's & keyboards are more compatible than we thought ( at least when it comes to composer styles)
rikkisbears@hotmail.com
Actually our "easy composer" style parts may be similar too. I'm still trying to work on putting a list together of the different style parts in "easy composer" be pretty bizzare if your piano's was the same as the kn's. I'll be sharing the list when I finish.

I don't think you'll ever see a backward ( meant to say foreward) compatible keyboard or piano.
There wouldn't be an incentive for people to upgrade to the latest model, if their old keyboard played the new styles & songs as perfectly as the new one did. Let's face it, manufactures need people to buy new products, or else there's no incentive for them to keep improving them.

THe only thing that I do find a bit dissapointing is that the piano & keyboards aren't fully compatible. Possibly hasn't occurred to Technics, that some people might prefer 88 notes and still have the sd card facilities and the custom styles etc. I'd much prefer a piano to a keyboard, but I wasn't willing to forgo the sd card facilities on the kn7. Admittedly I could midi up my PR602 to the KN7, but that gets messy & awkward to use, plus my PR602 & kn7 are in different parts of the house..

Little mp3 players might be handy for sharing music. I was considering getting one. ie record a backing track on my kn7 ( all the parts minus the melody) save as mp3. Plug the mp3 player audio out into my PR602 and play piano along with the mp3. Admittedly I could probably do the same thing with a cd player, but not as convenient as those tiny Panasonic mp3 players that you can take anywhere.

Just given me a thought for my Xmas wish list ( haahaa)

best wishes
Rikki




[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 10-31-2003).]
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki

Korg PA4x, Korg PA3X, PSR S950, Band in a Box 2016
V Arranger/Ketron SD2

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#48089 - 10/31/03 06:59 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
shcox Offline
Member

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 296
Loc: Leesburg, FL USA
Hey Rikki,

It does seem as if Technics is listening since my PR54 does say in the manual that it will play disks made for the KN7000. According to the salesmen (who really knew very little about the 54) it is the newest in the line so it may be that as they replace the higher end ensemble models they will include the same features.

But backwards compatiblity, why? In the MS WORD example yes if you do not use newer features you can save the file as a lesser version but if you do use them the features are lost. Musically, I rather have a song saved as midi so I still get all the sounds and as for styles they would not sound as good anyway. i.e. While the KN1000 was a good instrument in it's day. How many of us would want our new styles to sound and play like the KN1000 styles.

I think we are going in the right direction.

Heather
_________________________
Heather- Leesburg, FL PR54

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#48090 - 10/31/03 08:48 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
HI

Shcox said: "While the KN1000 was a good instrument in it's day. How many of us would want our new styles to sound and play like the KN1000 styles."

Reply: The people who still own the KN1000 that do not have the KN7000.

Just think on how many folks out there that have a KN6000 and older. They are not able to listen to the beautiful music in KN7000 format. The idea is having the current models format be backward compatible. Just think, if you owned a KN7000 and lets say you play at a parish that has a KN6000. If you recorded a beautiful religous song on the KN7000, it could not be played on the KN6000. However, if the KN7000 had a feature that says, save as, and a drop down of models comes up. Choose KN6000, and now it is in KN6000 format, to be played on the KN6000 at the parish.

Also, lets say a KN8000 comes out, and 5 people start sharing their KN8000 songs. Who will be able to listen to them? KN7000 owners? The answer is no, but if it was saved as KN7000, well? As time moves on, more and more will have the KN8000 and gradually the KN7000 will be left in the graveyard of past models (Good Marketing Strategy).

Rikki mentioned: "I don't think you'll ever see a fully backward compatible keyboard or piano. There wouldn't be an incentive for people to upgrade to the latest model, if their old keyboard played the new styles & songs as perfectly as the new one did. Let's face it, manufactures need people to buy new products, or else there's no incentive for them to keep improving them.

Reply:
Missing the point. The converted files from the KN7000 to lets say a KN6000 will not be as perfect as the KN7000, it will be as nearly as perfect as a KN6000. But will give the chance for KN6000 owners to hear KN7000 owners music, which presently is nill... Unless one goes out and buys a KN7000. (Good Marketing Strategy)...

Anthony

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#48091 - 10/31/03 09:54 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
Walt Meyer Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/02
Posts: 437
Loc: Silver City, NM USA
Regarding styles from older model keyboards.
Maybe those from the KN1000 are too simple, but I use a lot of my old files from the KN2000 that were tailored for specific songs.
The trick, of course is to use the updated (for Kn7000) styles that were so graciously supplied on the Technics web site.
I use these because of not being able to find native KN7000 styles that were really suitable. Don't get me wrong, the KN7000 styles are very good, but different. Besides, I have a lot of work that I put into my files for the KN2000 that I was able to salvage this way.
The best of two worlds.
Walt

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#48092 - 10/31/03 11:18 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi There Walt:

It's great that Technics is taking past KN models composer styles and converting these into the KN7000 format. This indeed will increase the rhythm library for all who have compatible KN7000 units. That's the catch phrase, "For all who have KN7000". Poor souls who don't...

But what about the people that don't have the compatible KN7000 units? Those people will still have to get a KN7000 in order to be able to use what's on the Technics site.

For those people for some reason or in other can not get the current models each time one comes out. So after awhile their KN will not be able to play other peoples music. Thus if the current models were backward compatible, then those who don't have the current model still can play, because it was saved in lets say a KN5000 format.

Now, there will be some loss of features, sounds, depending on what the older has or does not have compared to the newer model. I think the KN7000 is 128 Polysound and the KN5000 is 64. Of course when converted to KN5000 it will no longer be 128 but 64. Things like that, but hey, they can play it. Better than nothing.

Anthony

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#48093 - 10/31/03 01:05 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
Walt Meyer Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/02
Posts: 437
Loc: Silver City, NM USA
Anthony,
Technote sells disks that have styles from previous models that have been converted for almost all newer models. For instance, you can get KN2000 styles converted to KN5000, or KN3000 to Kn6000, ETC.
It gets a little costly but styles from past keyboards are available this way.
Walt

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#48094 - 10/31/03 04:38 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
lahawk Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2198
Loc: Lehigh Valley, Pa.
I think Anthony's point is that he believes all keyboards should be somewhat compatible with each other. Am I correct in that assumption Anthony ? At least that is what I have deciphered in your posts...and if that's the case, I afree with you.

There are very few products that I know of that are NOT backward compatible.
Heck..I have a VCR from 1987 that can play tapes made in 2003, but that did not stop me from purchacing the latest model

I have a CD Player made in 1990 that will play CD'S made today, but that did not stop me from purchacing the latest model.

My Uncle has a piano player made in 1938 that will play piano rolls made today, but that is not stopping him from purchacing a new piano.

There are probably good reasons why Technics keyboards are not backward compatible...I just don't know what those reasons are.

SeeYa
Larry Hawk
_________________________
Larry

" Always Do Whatever's Next "

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#48095 - 10/31/03 06:35 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 4243
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Larry,
boy, I must have been having a bad morning. Just realized I was using the wrong term. Of course most of the the keyboards are backward compatible ie they play disks from previous models, what most prior generation keyboards & piano's can't do, is play styles from the latest model ie a kn6 can't play a kn7 style.

What I meant to say was, most keyboards aren't foreward compatible ( if there is such a term) haahaa.

Thanks Larry for making me realize my blunder.

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by lahawk:



There are very few products that I know of that are [b]NOT
backward compatible.
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki

Korg PA4x, Korg PA3X, PSR S950, Band in a Box 2016
V Arranger/Ketron SD2

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#48096 - 10/31/03 10:31 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi Rikki:
I guess it's how one looks at forward/backward compatibility.

KN6500 and prior model format styles can be played on the KN7000. Thus the KN7000 is forward compatible "from" the KN6500.

KN7000 format styles can not be played back on the KN6500. The KN7000 styles therefore are not backward compatible. "IF" the KN6500 could play the KN7000 styles then the KN7000 would be backward compatible "to" the KN6500.
-------------

Hi Larry:
Yes, it would be nice to have "ALL" models compatible, but unrealistic because when newer models come out the older ones will not have the new technology. So with older models, it will only be HI TECH during it's time period (hey day).
-----------------
All:

The KN2000/3000/5000/6000/6500 does not have the new technology of the KN7000. That's because, it didn't exist when these prior models came out. My point is, since the technology of past models are already known, why not incorporate past model technology on newer models as they progress. Then it would understand a KN5000, KN2000, etc. and save in those model formats when chosen.

I'm just curious as to some figures. How many poeple post/share their songs in KN7000 format style? How many people can actually listen to them? People who "only" have a KN6500 or older models are out of luck. It was said, why save a song in an older model format? Why not! This will let others who don't have the newer model a way to listen to the great music people have been creating and sharing.

I'm just purely guessing here, lets say 20 people post/share their songs in KN7000 format. Lets say 100 people have a KN7000, hey 100 people are able to listen to these (including the 20 who shared). Lets say 75 people have only a KN6500, 60 only have a KN6000, 40 only a KN5000, 15 with KN3000, 10 with KN2000. That means (where's my calculator) 200 people are not able to listen to these.

Looking into the future. When the next KN model comes out, lets say KN8000. People will want to share their KN8000 stuff. It will be slow at first, but eventually all the opala on the KN7000 will start to dwindle and the KN8000 will start to rise. How many who have KN7000's will get the KN8000? How many will not? The KN7000 won't have the KN8000 technology, but the KN8000 should have the KN7000 technology, because it already exists.

What's that word I'm looking for? Oh! Emulate, have the KN8000 emulate the KN7000. Sure it won't sound as good as the KN8000 with it's new technology. It will sound like a KN7000, and loose some the new technology. But, looking at today's techology in the KN7000, WOW what an awesome instrument, look at all what it can do... So it must be good.

Anthony

[This message has been edited by AnthonyCian (edited 10-31-2003).]

[This message has been edited by AnthonyCian (edited 10-31-2003).]

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#48097 - 11/01/03 05:57 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
lahawk Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2198
Loc: Lehigh Valley, Pa.
Well that gets back to your original premise on this topic from way back...that saving in composer memory is the way to go, if you are going to share your songs from an older model keyboard that might be played on a newer model keyboard.

Like you said Anthony, the technology is so far advanced now, from say a KN2000, to the present KN7000, that songs saved on that 2000, sound quite awful, if not saved in composer memory. Even then, the sound is probably not going to be as originaly intended.

Rikki...the "forward - backward" term is kinda confusing, maybe we should use "older-newer" instead. The point I was tyring to make is that all these keyboards should be somewhat compatible, regardless of the advances in technology.

It is my belief that by now, Technics has the necessary knowledge on how to create a keyboard that is "forward-backward" ( "older-newer" ) compatible with all Technics keyboards...regardless...there is always MP3'S !..

In fact.. I was thinking of starting an MP3 web page for ALL Technic keyboards, then we can all listen to all makes of keyboards, from all Technic players...but that's another topic for another posting.

SeeYa
Larry Hawk

Larry Hawk
_________________________
Larry

" Always Do Whatever's Next "

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#48098 - 11/01/03 07:08 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi there Larry:

I guess as long as the public is willing to go along buying the next model as soon as it comes out, then there's really nothing else that can be said about this. As I said before, "Good Marketing Strategy".

Great to hear that your thinking about starting a MP3 website for Technics users.

Anthony

[This message has been edited by AnthonyCian (edited 11-01-2003).]

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#48099 - 11/01/03 06:25 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 4243
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Larry
Sounds like a good idea. The terms are a tad confusing.

I tend to think an mp3 site would be great. The biggest problem I tend to think , is that mp3's use a lot of memory, therefor you'd need a website with loads of memory space for storage or else they'd need to be removed and replaced on an ongoing basis.

best wishes
Rikki

Quote:
Originally posted by lahawk:


Rikki...the "forward - backward" term is kinda confusing, maybe we should use "older-newer" instead. Larry Hawk[/B]
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki

Korg PA4x, Korg PA3X, PSR S950, Band in a Box 2016
V Arranger/Ketron SD2

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#48100 - 11/03/03 11:42 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
shcox Offline
Member

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 296
Loc: Leesburg, FL USA
Hi Anthony,

I never mean to say or imply that the KN1000 or any of the older instruments were not good instruments or sound good even today. I too like many of the older styles because they have a bit simpler sound that does not make some songs sound “over produced”. And yes it would be nice if you could load a newer style or song into an older instrument but it still would not sound like it was meant to sound.

Obviously, if the song is put into midi format all keyboards can play them so in that sense they are compatible in whatever way we seem to be pointing (forward or backward) but even then there can be problems. For example the song Sunday Afternoon on my website was done using a Pan Flute on a PSR-500. Most GM sound systems make this a Flute, which does not have the breathy sound of a Pan Flute. And I’ve heard some sound cards destroy the drums because they don’t have as good of a drum kit or the same sounds in their drum kits. Are these minor points? Not to a musician.

On the KN7000 and the PR54 the style Secret Agent actually plays a totally different Into or Ending depending on whether you start or end on a Major or Minor chord. How could this be handled on the KN1000?

I’m speaking here both as a (loosely used term) musician and as a computer programmer. It would be a nightmare trying to decide what needed to be cut to make a style sound even as good as the original styles on the older instrument much less trying to make it sound close to the new style sound. I’m not saying it could not be done but I doubt that many of the owners of the older keyboard would really like the results.

Using the MS Word example again if I create a really great looking HTML document in MS Word 2000 and I wish to save it to MS Word 6.0 format I might get the text but I would not get the HTML document. For a graphic artist this would be disaster and the same is true for a musician who spends a lot of time playing a song with just the right sound only to have it sound different because some of the qualities of the song were lost.

So I stand by my original statements.

Best Regards,
Heather
_________________________
Heather- Leesburg, FL PR54

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#48101 - 11/03/03 02:59 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi Heather:

People who bought and still own a KN3000 probably wish they could hear and be able to use the styles that are being posted in KN7000 format. But they can't, what about them? In order to understand, one has to be in that situation.

I'm just advocating for the people that can not buy a new KN or PR every time a new model comes out. For those folks, well there kinda left in the dust. I was hoping NX was the answer, but not so. Looks like MP3 is, but then it may depend on what stereo system and computer system it will be played on to get that "original sound quality". A $200 unit or $2,000 unit?

As I mentioned before, wait until the KN8000 comes out, this will start all over again.

Anthony

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#48102 - 11/03/03 03:42 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
Walt Meyer Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/02
Posts: 437
Loc: Silver City, NM USA
Hi Heather,
You wrote,
Quote:
For example the song Sunday Afternoon on my website was done using a Pan Flute on a PSR-500. Most GM sound systems make this a Flute, which does not have the breathy sound of a Pan Flute.

The beauty of the Kn7000 (and others) is that it is easy to substitute any native voice of the KN7000 or any imported voice for the GM flute voice. And of course with the superb sound editing capabilities of the KN7000, you can tweak the sound to rival the original acoustic pan flute.
The KN7000 provides tools that are beyond imagination. The only hard part is learning how to use them. I've had my KN7000 about a year now and the light is just starting to come on in my brain regarding some of the finer points of the keyboard.
I hope that I live long enough to figure most of it out.
Regards,
Walt

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#48103 - 11/03/03 04:05 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
shcox Offline
Member

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 296
Loc: Leesburg, FL USA
Hi Anthony,

Believe me I do understand. I bought the PR with the idea that it was not compatible which was what the sales man had told me so I was ready to face the fact that I would have to start collecting styles all over again never knowing that if that were true there would be no styles to collect.

I was over joyed to find it was compatible with the KN7000 and that my KN6000 disks would load as well.

Also this is likely to be my last instrument so I know I'll be in that position.

NX is really just an extended Midi format like Yamaha has XG. GM and GM2 are standard midi interface instructions and sound sets. NX adds to that but sadly it is proprietary so a midi file made using NX will not sound correctly say on a Yamaha. But it will help with a standard Technics Sound set across instruments that have it.

Take care,
Heather
_________________________
Heather- Leesburg, FL PR54

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#48104 - 11/03/03 07:08 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi again Heather,

You have a PR54 and a KN6000, correct?

The PR804 file I sent you worked fine on the PR54 correct?

Say can you send a PR54 song file? You have my email address. Curious to see if it will load in the PR804. Record a sequencer using easy record. Save using all.

Anthony

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#48105 - 11/04/03 06:44 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
shcox Offline
Member

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 296
Loc: Leesburg, FL USA
Hi Anthony,

No I traded the KN6000 for the PR54 so I don't have it any more. My other keyboard is a PSR-500 a cheapie but a goodie.

I'll have to record something and send it along since I've actually never recorded that way even on the KN6K.

I tend to mess up more when I know I'm recording it's the shakey knees think. LOL

Heather
_________________________
Heather- Leesburg, FL PR54

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#48106 - 11/04/03 05:58 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi Heather:

Take your time, really curious to see if the PR54 format will work on the Pr804.

I think it's normal to make mistakes when knowingly recording, it happens to me all the time. I'll practice, practice and finally no mistakes. But once I turn that darn record button, here come the mistakes.

If you're un-easy about it, load a KN7000 song recorded from someone else? Then Save in Technics format using ALL.

Thanks,

Anthony

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#48107 - 11/05/03 02:57 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 3198
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Hi Walt Meyer, Isn't it nice to have bought an instrument that you can not understand immediately. That each day it's possible to discover something new and exciting. There is room for you to grow and explore. That's a good purchase, that's a nice keyboard.
I love it, John C.

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#48108 - 11/05/03 06:10 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
shcox Offline
Member

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 296
Loc: Leesburg, FL USA
Hi Anthony,

The song has been send. It was fun learning about how to record that was. Since the KN6K was hooked to the computer I just never needed to do it that way.

I did find that save as SFM does not make it sould as it should without making changes to it.

Heather
_________________________
Heather- Leesburg, FL PR54

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