SYNTH ZONE
Visit The Bar For Casual Discussion
Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >
Topic Options
#48036 - 10/18/03 12:00 AM When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi All:

I been downloading and playing back the KN6xk and KN7k recorded songs by the talented people here on the forum. All are really wonderful, interesting techniques used, and the playing style. Most have KN's, and I really wish I could share my songs, but unfortunately the KN is not compatible with the PR model (from PR to KN). I even made a stab at going the NX route only to discover the APC to SMF convert only converts the APC part and ignores the R1, R2 and Left (why have it). So I'll contribute with tips and hope this will be beneficial.

BACKGROUND INFO:
I noticed most players will use the pre-built rhythm patterns of the KN's, and stick with the original location. Do you know how Technics handles these types of saves? It actually doesn't save that rhythm pattern, but the location, via panel memory or current memory. This is great when playing back on the same exact model. Technics changes these pre-built rhythm patterns with every new model? Some patterns are entirely gone, others with minor changes, and completely new ones.

EXAMPLE:
Lets say you have a KN6000 and made a library of songs using the pre-built rhythm patterns and staying with the original location. You upgrade to the KN7000. Only to discover when playing back the songs, you do not have the same rhythm pattern, it's now using the closest match pre-built rhythm on the KN7000, it maybe better and may not. If you sold the KN6000 it would be hard to get that same "FEEL" back.

SOLUTIION:
With Technics instruments you must plan ahead. Just copy the pre-built rhythm patterns that you are going to use in the composer memory using "composer pattern copy" and setup your style of playing as usual, but point to composer memory. Remember when saving, include composer. When played back on a KN7000 it will use the composer memory and the original rhythm pattern and the feel of the song will be intact.

Note: KN7000 owners, something to think about if you plan on upgrading to the next model.

Comments and feedback welcome. But please be gentle...

Anthony

Top
#48037 - 10/18/03 02:18 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Good advice Anthony - this point has been raised several times on the forum but worth repeating, just to jog the old grey cells
I know that Cees tried to start up a KN6xxx on KESO but did not get much support - maybe worth trying a PR Page ???
As an alternative, if you would like to share your PR songs with other PR owners, I would be willing to put them on the download page, on my website.

------------------
Willum
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

Top
#48038 - 10/18/03 02:19 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
cees Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/02
Posts: 533
Loc: The Netherlands
Hi Anthony,
you are quite right with your vision on this item. Every KN-keyboardist 'should' know this 'problem'. I myself had that problem too. In the enthousiasme with each new keyboard mostly one forget to think at the next version and start recording (maybe underneath this is given by the idea that each new keyboard is the last update Writing this down, I realize that this has happend till now: 7 times, woww )
Recently I advised the KESO-guestplayers to record their songs by the way you point at, to be ready for the next generation.
The only hope is that Technics does not have surprises in the hat on this isue
Regards,
Cees

[This message has been edited by cees (edited 10-18-2003).]
_________________________
Cees wink
Webmaster of Technics KN7000 Keso-songs, Keso-Café and Keso-Jukebox. You're welcome to visit http://www.keso.nl

Top
#48039 - 10/18/03 02:39 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
cees Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/02
Posts: 533
Loc: The Netherlands
Hi Bill, it seems we posted at the same time. Thanks for the hint , but I had already considered several options/choices when I created KESO. For me I will stick to the KN7000 (for most practical reason, for I myself have one) Secondly: as I pointed at in the post above, knowing myself, I must reckon with the idea that next year the KN8000 is coming and who knows ... (hope my wife doesnot read this ). If so, KESO will be ready for that too.
As a 'service' I developed the possibility for KN6-songs.
Regards,
Cees


Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Norrie:
....
I know that Cees tried to start up a KN6xxx on KESO but did not get much support - maybe worth trying a PR Page ??? ........
_________________________
Cees wink
Webmaster of Technics KN7000 Keso-songs, Keso-Café and Keso-Jukebox. You're welcome to visit http://www.keso.nl

Top
#48040 - 10/18/03 07:58 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
lahawk Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2198
Loc: Lehigh Valley, Pa.
Will saving the style and sound in a "Panel Memory" do the trick, or is "Composer Copy" the only solution? It is easier and faster to 'Set' a Panel Memory.
_________________________
Larry

" Always Do Whatever's Next "

Top
#48041 - 10/18/03 08:22 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
Gunnar Jonny Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/01/01
Posts: 3125
Loc: Norway
You have to copy the patterns into composer first, then you can
use the pan.mem. as you like.
Remeber to set pan.mem in expand mode.
GJ

Btw, if special sounds are in use, maybe edited internals,
they most as well be saved in soundbanks to get the right
playback.

[This message has been edited by Gunnar Jonny (edited 10-18-2003).]
_________________________
Cheers & Happy Playing. smile
GJ
_______________________________________________
"Success is not counted by how high you have climbed
but by how many you brought with you." (Wil Rose)

Top
#48042 - 10/18/03 11:03 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Thanks for the feedback everyone. I noticed the downloaded songs (not all) use the pre-built location on the KN. What made me think twice and why I posted this tip, was the players also included the composer file but it was not being used.

Maybe the person was thinking by including the composer file it will include the pre-built rhythms. I just wanted to inform the people here that that isn't so. A little work is required to copy the pre-built patterns into the composer first. Include the Composer when saving, and it will be there for other models.

Another reason for bringing this up, is if the player plans to distribute their work to others having different models, well I think you get the point.

Something else that's closely related to this that should be noted. The PADS also follows this rule. If you want that particular pre-built pad to sound in another model, you must copy it to the user Pads area (Phrase Copy). Then when saving, include the Pads. Again I noticed people including the pads file, but to find out the songs played through are just using the pre-built pads.

Then too, it just maybe the way people save their work, just by saving "ALL" regardless if used or not.

Just tips, don't take this wrong way.

Anthony

Top
#48043 - 10/18/03 11:13 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
lahawk Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2198
Loc: Lehigh Valley, Pa.
Why do you have to copy the patterns in composer first? Is this step really necessary?

Maybe I have been doing it wrong, but if I want to use a built in rythmn, and add any sound (custom or built in), I just "Set" it in Panel Memory.

I used this method for recording on the 3000, and when played back on the 7000, it sounded decent, although certainly not nearly as good as the original recording on the 3000.

Will using the Composer Copy insure better accuracy? I always thought, that if there is too big of a "gap" in keyboards, that the original recording in the lower end keyboard will not sound very good on an upper end keyboard, no matter how you save your song. That is to say a 3000 recording, played on a 7000 is going to be "off", no matter the technique used.

However if you record on a later model, like the 6000, and play that 6000 recording on the 7000, the 7000 has a much better chance of "reading" the intended style, sounds, etc. Obviously, there is a much smaller "gap" in the 6000 to 7000, compared with the 3000 to 7000..too much technology between keyboards. The 7000 has to guess to your intent in all cases, but has a better chance with more compatable keyboards. Am I wrong about this ?

Are you saying that using Composer Copy before saving to panel memory will eliminate that gap in keyboards, and by using Composer Copy, before saving to panel memory, will give an accurate rendition of your original recording ?

If all this is true, do I have to save to panel memory after using composer copy, or is composer copy the only step needed? If we have to use composer copy, then panel save, in my opinion, that's too much work. It may be easier to "edit" on the upper end keyboard, then to go through all that trouble.

Thanks
Larry Hawk

Thanks,
Larry Hawk
_________________________
Larry

" Always Do Whatever's Next "

Top
#48044 - 10/18/03 11:16 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
Bud Whipple Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 480
Loc: The Plantation, Leesburg, Flor...
Personally, I always copy a style into the composer and work on it there. While Gunnar uses expand mode when saving the style, I don't do that unless I'm using the sequencer and moving from variation to variation with the panel memory buttons via the foor switch. When just dressing up a style or getting them ready for future recording, normal mode is my choice. That way, tempo and variation settings remain constant while changing from one pm to another. Sound levels or balances can be set in with the instrument of choice with each pm setting, including special "voices" which should be saved in sound memory, like Gunnar states. You cannot save sounds into memory from expansion boards and have them reproduce exactly on a keyboard that does not have the expansion board. I found out the hard way while recording a kn6000 song from a kn6500 to a cd recorder - garbled sound! I had to stop in the middle of the recording, go home and sequence the song with another instrument. What a bummer. I thought if I included the sound into sound memory, it would reproduce okay, but the School of Hard Knocks sent me to summer school and I learned the proper way. I still think that if an instrument is included in sound memory then when the style is loaded, sound memory would have all the necessary information to reproduce that particular sound. However............! Alec told us a long time ago to experiment with features you're not really familiar with because you won't hurt the keyboard, but most players shy away from that way of learning for one reason or another. It's easier to play along and do what you are familiar with, I suppose, but somewhere along the line you'll hit a learning plateau. Then one has to hit the books, take lessons or end up snagged at that level while others pass you by. I learned that lesson on the guitar. Without professional guidance I would never get beyond mediocre, so I gave it up and took up organs and keyboards. I still haven't had lessons, but I practice a lot more. What's that old saying about an old dog and new tricks?

Top
#48045 - 10/18/03 11:20 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi Willum:

Thanks for the offer on posting my PR songs on your website. I'm in transison from PR900 to (have someone converting) PR902, then to PR804. Finding out, I have to adjust the octaves, sounds, and vol settings, takes some doing. When the dust settles I may take up on your offer.

Clarification on the previous post. I noticed I said "another or other models". To have files loaded in other models, first it has to be compatible which means the next model up. Don't want to give the impression doing the tip it will be backward compatible. This is only forward compatible. And as Cees puts it, only hope that Technics does not have surprises in the hat on this issue.

That did happen on the PR804. PR900 and earlier model files are not 100% compatible with the PR804. That's why I have to get the PR900 files converted to either PR902 or PR903 first.

Anthony

Top
Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >

Moderator:  Admin 



Help keep Synth Zone Online