Arranger keyboards are characterized by their automatic accompaniment styles, which are essentially multi-part MIDI riffs that follow your chord changes, adding not just a drum beat but several virtual musicians worth of backing band as well. Their feature sets and price points range from basic accompaniment and easy-play features found on some $149 Costco impulse purchase to the $6,000-plus Yamaha Genos, a songwriting and performance monster machine that can basically sound like anything and do anything. Arrangers are also some of the most maligned and least understood keyboards among many pros.

https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/synth-expert/news-blog/2017/10/6/why-arranger-keyboards-matter

I think we've had this conversation before, Donny... but you are so right. Arrangers are a mystery to 99.5% of the American Public... and I'm guessing 95% of that sample do not even realize they exist or what they do. You might think the manufacturers would take time to review marketing 101 and do a little TV advertising. On the other hand, maybe we should whisper when discussing arrangers. Our gain... their loss! LOL!

Visit most any big box Music Gear Store and ask a salesperson in the Keyboard Section about an arranger... any arranger. Most look perplexed and make an exit as quickly as they can distract you.

My only concern: Perhaps arrangers will become Dinosaurs and go extinct if the Korg and Yammie people can't make money off their marvelous products. Oh well, at least I have three.

You are so right Dave in many ways..big music store too are disappearing to the internet way of shopping....but let's face it aside from nursing homes and older adult music, etc,......
arrangers aren't sought out to create today's younger generations music at all, sad truth,...here lies the problem why the demise of arranger kbs is eminent but instead will linger on gracefully until home organ baby boomers are totally gone. We are a small fraction of the musical population that still enjoys them & I am fine with that and proud that I had lots of years and still do enjoying playing an arranger kb every day. An arranger KB is a great flexible tool for amature & pro musicians alike only IF they take the time to learn its features and know how to apply them to whatever situation is needed to create music.
Thoughts?

Thoughts? Here are mine. I don't think they're misunderstood at all. I think most serious musicians understand perfectly what an arranger keyboard is, if not specifically, at least in concept. That contcept is, of course, auto-accompaniment and I think that is precisely what turns them off. Solid concepts accompanied by quality products will almost always succeed in the marketplace. There is little dispute about the high quality and technical excellence of today's most popular arranger keyboards. We must then conclude that it must be the CONCEPT that is responsible for it's dismal showing in the keyboard market. It's a cop-out to say that people/musicians "don't know about them"; they've been around at least 30 or more years which should be more than enough time to get 'discovered'. Musical instruments are meant to show off your musical skills, not disguise them....and therein lies the problem. In the minds of most (YES, MOST) professional musicians, an arranger keyboard is NOT a legitimate musical instrument (you can interpret 'legitimate' however you like). This attitude has not changed in 30-40 years and is unlikely to change in the future.

Well you asked for 'thoughts' .

chas

It has been said a million times, the arranger keyboard is a tool,, yes it is an instrument, if you choose it to be one..

I do not agree with Chas , that most musicians understand the arranger to a degree, where they would find it could meet their needs too.

Auto stuff is just one feature.. If it makes you more sellable in the marketplace, why not use it? Maybe you can get better paying gigs ( $40 coffee shops), at least the $100 senior gigs

Seriously, Most musicians do not know the benefits of arranger keyboards.. Splits, layers, zones , control of sounds, routing effects, mic inputs and on board mixing... all things that they keep buying synths and workstations for..... Ease of use and saving set ups are a breeze, and you have more time to play

You don't have to use all the gimmicks just because you can.. BTW: what sounds worst than the old synths with arpeggios... makes me want to throw up

They have improved in modern times.. how ? By modeling the arpeggios more like arranger styles.. Think about that "musicians"

I have a refrigerator that makes ice cubes automatically... I don't need this and I don't want it.. I didn't even connect a water line to it... now that is a firm statement

As it has been said many times here, There are not many folks that know much about arrangers and they are the people selling the arrangers (trying) in the music stores... so who is going to educate musicians on their benefits?

This is my out-take on this subject, Arrangers are like automatic self pay registers in Walmart, they take jobs away from creative musicians who need to make a living and are forced to do something else in life, although they are also tools to help you make music the nightclubs that had a full band, are now downsizing to a minimum. I am very aware of this situation because I am a part of it, do I like it? NO! but I have to make some kind of living part time besides my regular job.

In my area, and I suspect a lot of others, there are FAR more single guitar players using midi or karaoke background than there ever were arranger players. There are a couple a week trying to get my job, but they will have to way until I expire!
At the peak of arranger use here, there were never more than 3 or 4 actually using them to make money, and that was usually at nursing homes. These days, there are only two of us in an area of a couple hundred thousand people, and the other one has cut back to twice a month.
Oh, and there is a chain of Mexican Restaurants that sometimes brings up arranger players from Mexico. There are LOTS of arranger users in Mexico. I have sold five of my old arrangers to people in Mexico, three to the same guy!

Another factor, I find, is apathy or ignorance about how the finished product is arrived at. Granted, I play for the older crowd and find they enjoy my music, being singing and playing styles,or harmonica and playing over midi or MP3's. Not everyone is going to leer at you with a jaundiced eye. They even give me undeserved credit for an arrangement of a song they loved so many years ago. Yes, they are older people, but not wheelchair bound. They are dancing and having a good time. I guess I am fortunate to live and play in the senior capital of the country. I am not disputing some of the above findings, but it is not going to stop me. So there.
Bernie

Wheelchairs or not the all have ears to enjoy music.

I only said wheelchair bound meaning they might be a captive audience and not indicative of people coming out to hear you, yet, many of my old friends are in the NH's I play at. Maybe they like me because I fit right into their age group lol.

One thing I’ve discovered...

Most of my friends who are piano players are used to the left hand playing accompaniment ...bass lines etc.

They struggle playing just chords with the left hand. And with arrangers, styles can only be played if one of the hands maintains some sort of chord pattern.

I agree with my learned, LA counterpart, DonM. When I was in Cozumel Cabo San Lucas, Playa Del Carmen, Cancun, and a few other locations in Mexico, there were arranger keyboard players at nearly every hotel on a nightly and daily basis. Most were duos and trios, often a drop-dead gorgeous, female vocalist who could sing in at least two languages, and sometimes a guitar player.

In the Florida Keys, I was just one of only 2 arranger keyboard players between Key Largo and Key West. There were hundreds of "Have Guitar Will Travel" guys, though, and nearly all playing to midi and MP3 backing tracks. Without the backing tracks, most couldn't get a job at Walmart. Some were really good guitar players, but most were strummers that sang and damned near every song sounded the same.

As for serious musicians knowing anything at all about an arranger keyboard, those were few and far between. I spent more than 3 decades trying to teach some highly educated musicians how to navigate a keyboard, and those that had an open mind loved what the discovered. Those that were closed minded and egotistical walked away, and went back to doing what they did 40 years ago, and for the most part, they never made enough money playing music to pay the bar tabs.

Damned glad I drink!

Gary

I would challenge any musician that thinks this way.. to sit in with my default settings and play... they better know how to play left hand bass... that is what they will have to work with..

I usually never play a style on a gig.. Always bass and piano/organ etc.. even over SMF's ( my preference).. Request usually just the arranger drums and bass/piano..

Latin tunes .. the arranger is a big plus.. no one can play all the things that are going on

Tonight I checked out a local "Animal Club". Advertised Dinner at 6. Live entertainment at 7-10. I got there at 8:15 and was bucking a crowd coming out. The live entertainment was still on stage. One guy, a color changing stage light and a computer playing MP3s. A guitar sitting by his side. He did not sing or play the guitar in the 15 minutes I was there. Playing 80s RnR for a senior crowd. And I was one of the last to leave at 8:30.

Disclaimer: I used to play there and had trouble holding the crowd beyond 9:15. None of the other local "animal clubs" are doing much better. Where is Don Mason when we need him?

Eddie

I used to play the Elk's, the Eagles, the Moose, the VFWs and American Legions. They paid very well too. I haven't played one in a number of years now. I played the Elks two Saturdays a month for several years and it paid $350. a night. That was good back then. Now they pay about half that. There number of members is dwindling.
The Legion where we had a couple of the jams still has a small band, and my friend DickieT works it twice a month. He usually uses a sax man and guitar player. I think it pays $300 total. I'm certain I could go back there if I wanted to, but I don't.
I think I will keep the job I have as long as my health holds out. Still enjoy it!

Well Fran, I also play left hand bass and also worked with 6 or more musicians live, but speaking on my behalf my type of music requires to have left hand free for pitchbend to be able to correctly get the quarter tones needed. I have much respect for the Western musicians and they also respect what we do so, I use mostly the arranger section since there is no funds to pay a full piece band in most situations

The problem is not the current state, but its herritage..

If Korg would add something akin to Ketrons launchpad feature to their next Kronos.
It would sell like hot cakes with molten chocolate lava inside.

I think its the simplicity of having preplayed intro's and endings, that turns many pro musicians away.
Not the way how the actual chord follwing works, as many are trying to copy exactly this behaviour with their arps or Karma.

The launchpads should work for these critical aclaimed pro's as a fresh start of an entirely new thing, while us arranger players know better.

So how does it get reversed?

By adding arranger features to high end instruments
In a form not recognised as an arranger..
The way i discribed with the launcpad..

Also keep in mind, that yamaha and rolamd are adding arrnager features to all their digital piano’s by using ipad apps.. arranger is slowly making its way into more and more households.. its far from death, altough the form is changing.

I think it is ignorance that turns a lot of musicians away. They have no idea what modern arrangers can do; all they remember are the early Casio and Yamaha "toys".
In fact most of them that hear me just assume everything is sequenced ahead of time. Well in a way it is, but with way more flexibility.

I probably didn’t say this so well.

It’s not easy for me to get a seasoned keyboard player interested in arrangers.

Case in point. Two friends both play keyboard in bands. I demo’d some styles for them from Genos. They were impressed and said they would use arranger styles except for the fact that they both played bass lines with the left hand and leads/fills with the right hand.

One of them tried my Genos playing a simple bass left hand. Every time he hit a different bass note, the chord changed....didn’t work. There may be a work around but I haven’t found it.

Guess my point is that arrangers(at least in my limited experience) are played much differently than other electric keyboards....or am I missing something here?

Also remember before the 80s many pro musicians that are still here never even new about arranger keyboards and played music in a different way using multiple keyboards on stage the change over to automatic style while you're playing is very different sometimes horses can't learn and tricks...

This said, I have sold three arrangers to guitar playing friends who wanted to try a keyboard.

The way I approached it was that I taught them to use their left hands to play chords on their arrangers. Their right hands could do leads, chords, fills etc.

This made sense to my guitar playing friends as they used their left hands for chords on guitar. They just had to learn to form chords in a different manner on the arranger than they did on guitar.

Wrong fingering mode.

Gary

You need to set the correct recognition.. Right side of split and piano mode (3 or more notes to change chord).. Now you can play left hand bass without chord changes, even right hand fills, but if you play 3 or more notes the chord recognition will change the style play.. Don't forget to mute the auto bass part..

I’ll give it a try.

Ditto

I'm an arranger player myself and i used to be friends with a man who didn't understand how the fingering with the left hand worked and who also thought it was cheating because you're "Not doing anything"

He was like, you're playing chords but the machine is doing the rest, you're basically only playing with your right hand. And that of course is completely untrue.

There are people who think that an arranger isn't a real instrument because of this, and i find that sad. I ALSO find it sad that there aren't more people my age playing the arranger because they think it's for old people...

Went to the Genos demonstration last year and well yes i saw lots of grey hairs there but they were very enthousiastic for the machine, showed lots of love for it, and i think that's what matters most. I'm probably unique in the sense that i'm young ánd playing keyboards ánd not using it as a controller for FL Studio or something but i'm NOT unique in the sense that i LOVE making music, and that shouldn't matter if you're 15 or 85.

And that's why i think the arranger is misunderstood, the majority of the people that i talk to think that it's not a real instrument, like.. Sure, you can play the piano on it, but it doesn't have 88 keys. And as soon as you turn on the arranger, they see you as a fraud.. And if you use it as a controller for FL Studio or Cubase or something another they see you as "Just button pusher"

And of course the famous "My son has got one just like that" when for example a mother has a soon with a Casio CTK-471 and you're at home with a Technics KN-5000

All very true points well said, .....and don't forget the many pro & amateurs alike just see the "repetitiveness of an automated backing machine" as being a non creative musician but merely someone who just is an operator of the device known as an "Arranger keyboard" vs someone who writes and creates music track by track making musical arrangements their own which in their eyes is way more legit ..but when the smoke quits people just consider an arranger keyboard an extension of the old wooden organs with auto styles & drum beats in a cheaper box you can buy in any big box store Casio leading the bunch!. Arranger Kbs definitely have been tagged with a bad reputation that only a small handful of players really know anything about let along how to really play them properly, and I am afraid too many years have gone by to educate the masses & lack luster advertising and promotion hasn't helped when people in a music stores challenged by internet sales, that lacks the different Models to demo and lacks the under uneducated sales staff that has no clue about them either to show people what they are all about. So actually it's all our fault and we are all responsible for what we have left here just a few companies producing the few Arranger keyboards as time just passes by after all to them it is all about making money and profits,..........meanwhile the younger generation and the music industry itself is being made by musicians in so many "other ways" with so many other devices that I am afraid the lonely arranger keyboard no matter how great we think it is because we know all about it's powers can never recover and will remain a novelty to the world and enjoyment to the lucky few in their bedrooms, etc,who understand what an Arranger Keyboard & all it's attributes can actually do!.....
That said when is GENOS 2 coming out Winter NAMM 2019 is only a few months away????
I am sick of talking about old peoples ailments

Yes they are misunderstood by those musicians who never investigated them. To them it still got the Walmat/Casio $149 stigma. But strumming 4 chords on an acoustic guitar is OK.
As far a s audience I've never heard a bad comment about my arranger.. I always get positive feedback on my performances and I think its because I don't let the arranger take center stage. Editing the Styles and SMFs, playing some very live sounding keys over them and vocals make it acceptable.
I've seen the worst talent around and people don't care how the music comes out as long as its good. Live Kareoke in various forms is common anymore so who's to say we're cheating or not really playing using an Arranger.

Exactly! Arrangers still have that stigma that they aren't more than just instruments you find at Walmart or Toys'R'Us, like with Casio..

Genos 2 has been released about a year ago, i would say wait 3 and probably 4 more years.

I would even go as far as saying that in 2020 we might get a PSR S990 or PSR S-1x with features from the Genos and maybe in 2021 or 2022 get a Genos 2.

Genos 2 released???

get ready my friends its coming and genos 1 prices will drop like a rocket compared to MRSP which sucks big time...

Donny, you keep saying styles are repetitive, but in reality, ALL music is repetitive. The strumming of a guitar, bass lines, etc..., all repetitive. Granted, you can place some emphasis on some individual notes, but it's still based upon sequences. So, the argument that arranger keyboard styles are repetitive and that's why REAL musicians don't use them is a falacy.

Now, lets meet up sometime soon before the snow flies,

Gary

Hmmmmmmm..... I don't think I can agree with you on the fallacy issue of multi track by track musical arrangement creation vs repetitive operator controlled mini midi file arranger styles which there is nothing wrong with as personally I mix it up and use both, etc,..
But, I will meet you again for some incredible seafood very soon will call you asap ok then we can discuss it over some Oysters Rockefeller and Giant Dungeness crabs dipped in garlic butter!!..

NO!!!

It is NOT repetitive - it all depends on how you use it. Yamaha has multipads, Ketron has Launch Pads. Korg has pads. You have three intros, three endings, at least four fills. Two upper voices/some three, two lower voices. All of these can be used inside ANY song. You have Voicetron. All of the above can be programmed to change with EVERY variation.

All that is needed is imagination. One should use the arranger as an arranger, using all the buttons, features and sliders.

So much for being "unskilled" for using it - it takes a LOT of skill, fast reaction and a sharp imagination. It is a complex instrument IF used properly. Having nothing but musical skills alone won't cut it if you want to use it PROPERLY.

Very few use an arranger as an arranger, and here lies the main problem.

Yes Henni I agree WE Know that BUT, all non arranger players do not and there lies the confusion. Arranger kb playing is like watching a magician for the audience.....
"Hey How The heck did he do that"??? only thing the trick is never revealed....

I shared this before. At one time I used a VERY active style with a VERY active multipad for our first song.

I would start with EVERYTHING muted and then bring in one by one instrument whilst introducing it's band member by name.

That solved ALL and ANY false impressions. One can do this often during your performance. The crowd loves it and it makes them realize just exactly what it going on.

Heck, with Ketron with the -R styles, you can announce that you are taking a short break and that the band members are taking over on their own. When you play again, you thank them (band members) and clearly state that you are taking over control again.

There are lots of ways to make the crowd aware what is going on and besides, it is great fun too. Instead of telling jokes, do this to break things up a bit inbetween.

Play a chord wrong on purpose, reprimand the "band" and demonstrate the correct chord to the "band" for instance. Anounce the distortion guitar player just before selecting the multipad and call him by name as you activate the pad. The ideas are endless.

We can make the audience aware of exactly what is going on, but ONLY if we choose to do so.

Henni, that's called "Entertainment" and that's why I refer to myself as an entertainer - not a musician.

Gary

Gary and you surly were a great one buddy and made so many people happy with your music!!

Hi, that was me when I got my first arranger. My piano playing was pretty limited, left hand arpeggio’s ( Richard Clayderman style). Getting used to the concept of playing chords with the left hand for the arranger , was pretty difficult for me at first. Having to learn about chords was the best thing that could have happened to me. The arpeggios I used to read note for note, took me ages to learn a tune. If only I’d realised an arpeggio was just a broken chord. Learning may have been less difficult.

There is always the full pianist mode on the arranger, something I’ve never gotten the hang of.

i WOULD LOVE A GOOD TUTORIAL ON THIS

To me it allways feels piano mode requires its very own arrangement, you can't just play a piece of piano sheet music and expect a perfect accompaniment..

I would love to see an indepth guide to this,

Yeah, 'piano mode' doesn't make much sense to me on an arranger unless you're just playing piano. Most piano players don't play arrangers and most arranger players don't play piano. So who uses it?

chas

ME!!!!

Piano mode is the best method to follow what the piano player is playing..
Piano players do not have to re think what they are doing.. the arranger does a good job at following them..

Roland has a great design.. not only 3 or more notes to change a chord recognition, but 5 or more when using a sustain pedal.

Gear News source...."Genos: Yamaha’s next generation digital workstation keyboard
02 Oct 2017 · Be a musical magician at any party with this ultimate automatic music making machine from Yamaha. Genos will inspire and intensify your musical creation and performance."

Musical magician?

Ultimate automatic music making machine?


And then you wonder why arrangers are misunderstood with statements like this?


https://www.gearnews.com/manufacturer/yamaha/

Donny, if we remove the first word, and keep 'automatic music making machine' it's pretty close.
Only press a button or more and it plays mp3, midi and whatever.
You can even connect a mic and perform karaoke.
Hey, then it's pretty close to 'ultimate' again.....

I'm afraid it is too late to change the akb perception... Sad

[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/HF2eHYYm808[/video]

This is how the younger generation is making music.... vs arrangers...

They see a keyboard as something they hook up to a computer sadly.
Not saying that it's something THAT bad.. I used my old Tyros as a midi controller because the keybed was fantastic. But on the other side of things i ALSO knew how to use the arranger side of the machine.

One thing bothers me about that video... Why was he using a piano sound while in the original tune you hear a very typical Roland Rock Organ? You can download free General Standard Soundfonts that have that exact sound on there.

The death of TOTL arrangers will come about when performers like Don M are no longer playing them. T he biggist problem is the hundreds of sub par performers who go out and use nothing but the auto features without any variety. Laziness creates the repetive sounds of the same rhythm over and over. How many examples of songs posted here and on other arranger forums where the performer plays a single note melody on one background without changing a thing on the tune. BORING! and a disservice to the kb.

The full piano mode concept would make sense, but it doesn't work. Unless you play super simple stuff and/or help the keyboard to recognize the harmonic content, the result is hardly musical. It's really not a problem for me, as I hardly use the arranger features for live performances. I record the chord progression alone, or just loop it and only then I'm able to play what I want without getting conflicting notes.

There's absolutely no way for any of these keyboards to be able to fully understand the relationship between notes in a phrase and cluster....and then add the sustained notes to the mix.

On Korg forums many have disagreed with me on this over the years, so I have challenged them to show a demo. Either I got a ding dong "Piano" track...they got offended and said they don't need to show anything to prove....or they're too busy and simply disappeared!

Until I see a real person doing this in real time, the FULL piano mode is only ok bordering on useless. I don't blame the keyboards for this at all. Music is much more than a simple math. Harmonic content is not only decided by what is being played already, but also by what comes next. Any given note can be a passing note, or a chord tone depending on the next move and that's just a basic issue. No keyboard can guess that. The human element associated with all this is too complex but that's music.

Actually they are trying to copy what we do on arrangers..
They use a lot of loopers..
Its just like creating a style from scratch in real time..
But they are stuck to the preprogrammed chord sequence

As i said, they don’t realize what an arranger chord progression can do for them...

I agree. That's why it would seem to me that a program like Band-in-a-box which can analyze and entire song before creating an arrangement, would do a better job than an arranger (with no look-ahead opportunity). I haven't looked at BIAB in a few years but would guess it to be quite sophisticated at this point. Those that would like to see it operate in 'real-time' apparently don't realize that it would lose that (look-ahead) advantage.

I'm not a purist/snob/etc., but I too have been critisized for saying that I never have and probably never would, use an arranger on a professional gig; that, and the fact that an arranger doesn't do well with the type of music I play in clubs (jazz organ trio/quartet). I consider myself a arranger hobbyist and fully acknowledge it's strengths as a GREAT songwritiing tool, a quick way to flesh out a tune, a way to try a tune with different styles, and overall, a fun instrument to play around with....for awhile. With the right type of music and a talented performer, it can also be a viable tool for a OMB, especially if the emphasis is on vocals. However, except for visuals and somewhat more flexibility, the sonic effect would be much the same as a backing track (IMO). In fact, with the likes of song markers, etc., in midi files, most of that 'flexibility' could still be there with the backing tracks.

chas

Hi Chas:

I sometimes use a really good Vocalist/Producer who uses BIAB with real authority... coupled with other trade secrets... to demo some of my songs I am incapable of vocalizing properly. Old frogs tend to "croak" and I am an old frog! LOL!

After discovering him and his work... it made me wonder if I would not have made a better decision to explore BIAB and other alternatives to an Arranger. I never perform and songwriting is my primary interest. One thing is certain, the Yamaha PSR-S970 is a really good machine for what I do... but it has bells and whistles I'll never learn to use due to time constraints.

Hint: My wife keeps scheduling me to go to the tailor to have my burial suit altered! LOL!

Regards, ----Dave Rice

Hi Bachus, me too. The guy who used to sell me my technics keyboards was amazing. He loved demoing the arranger piano’s . I could have watched him for hours. ( sometimes I think I did ) never quite sunk through what he was doing though. His hands were all over the keyboard, with runs and fills and the accompaniment was following him perfectly.

Only thing that did sink thru was that it needed 3 notes to trigger a chord change, whatever single notes he played in between like the runs and fills, didn’t change the chords.

Needs a totally different sort of arrangement ie split : chord Style vs pianist style mode.


If you ever find a tutorial of some kind, luv to see it.

Hi Sam, I’ve seen it done , the guy was brilliant at it.
One thing he did make quite clear, the chord recognition on some brands is not quite up to scratch in full pianist mode. Showed me the difference between the technics and the Yamaha and rolands. The technics handled the chord changes perfectly, the other 2, not as well.

P.s. I’m going back approx 15 to 20 years ago. He also wrote piano tuition books, wish he’d written one on how to play arrangers in pianist mode, or at least written some arrangements .

Hi Rikki,

I'm sure you can make it work if you change your playing style and limit the harmonic content around the chord recognition system. That's what I meant by helping the keyboard to make the right guesses.

Other than that it's very easy to defeat that, because it's quiet limited.

On some arrangers, you can use a sustain pedal to hold the chord until you decide to change.
That frees up both hands to do whatever you wish.

Thanks Don,
I’ve never really checked it out, 61 notes is probably a limiting. 88 note controller on the horizon. Haha ( in my dreams, and hubby’s nightmares)

Maybe that’s what the guy I mentioned was doing, using sustain pedal to hold the chords.
I was just so dazzled by his expertise at the time, I couldn’t work out what he was doing.
Haha