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#461229 - 11/09/18 07:33 PM
Re: Are Arranger Keyboards Misunderstood?
[Re: Dnj]
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Member
Registered: 03/22/17
Posts: 449
Loc: Mountain Home, AR
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The death of TOTL arrangers will come about when performers like Don M are no longer playing them. T he biggist problem is the hundreds of sub par performers who go out and use nothing but the auto features without any variety. Laziness creates the repetive sounds of the same rhythm over and over. How many examples of songs posted here and on other arranger forums where the performer plays a single note melody on one background without changing a thing on the tune. BORING! and a disservice to the kb.
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PSR 740,PSR 3000, Mirage, tx7, mp32, Pro Tools 10,11 SONAR, Reaper, BIAB 2020 and a pile of Computer Music mags w/disks
College student was working on Doctoral, Education Now just doing courses to do courses
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#461240 - 11/10/18 05:06 AM
Re: Are Arranger Keyboards Misunderstood?
[Re: SAM CA]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
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The full piano mode concept would make sense, but it doesn't work. Unless you play super simple stuff and/or help the keyboard to recognize the harmonic content, the result is hardly musical. It's really not a problem for me, as I hardly use the arranger features for live performances. I record the chord progression alone, or just loop it and only then I'm able to play what I want without getting conflicting notes.
There's absolutely no way for any of these keyboards to be able to fully understand the relationship between notes in a phrase and cluster....and then add the sustained notes to the mix.
On Korg forums many have disagreed with me on this over the years, so I have challenged them to show a demo. Either I got a ding dong "Piano" track...they got offended and said they don't need to show anything to prove....or they're too busy and simply disappeared!
Until I see a real person doing this in real time, the FULL piano mode is only ok bordering on useless. I don't blame the keyboards for this at all. Music is much more than a simple math. Harmonic content is not only decided by what is being played already, but also by what comes next. Any given note can be a passing note, or a chord tone depending on the next move and that's just a basic issue. No keyboard can guess that. The human element associated with all this is too complex but that's music.
I agree. That's why it would seem to me that a program like Band-in-a-box which can analyze and entire song before creating an arrangement, would do a better job than an arranger (with no look-ahead opportunity). I haven't looked at BIAB in a few years but would guess it to be quite sophisticated at this point. Those that would like to see it operate in 'real-time' apparently don't realize that it would lose that (look-ahead) advantage. I'm not a purist/snob/etc., but I too have been critisized for saying that I never have and probably never would, use an arranger on a professional gig; that, and the fact that an arranger doesn't do well with the type of music I play in clubs (jazz organ trio/quartet). I consider myself a arranger hobbyist and fully acknowledge it's strengths as a GREAT songwritiing tool, a quick way to flesh out a tune, a way to try a tune with different styles, and overall, a fun instrument to play around with....for awhile. With the right type of music and a talented performer, it can also be a viable tool for a OMB, especially if the emphasis is on vocals. However, except for visuals and somewhat more flexibility, the sonic effect would be much the same as a backing track (IMO). In fact, with the likes of song markers, etc., in midi files, most of that 'flexibility' could still be there with the backing tracks. chas
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
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#461326 - 11/11/18 05:34 PM
Re: Are Arranger Keyboards Misunderstood?
[Re: Bachus]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
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One thing I’ve discovered...
Most of my friends who are piano players are used to the left hand playing accompaniment ...bass lines etc.
They struggle playing just chords with the left hand. And with arrangers, styles can only be played if one of the hands maintains some sort of chord pattern. Hi, that was me when I got my first arranger. My piano playing was pretty limited, left hand arpeggio’s ( Richard Clayderman style). Getting used to the concept of playing chords with the left hand for the arranger , was pretty difficult for me at first. Having to learn about chords was the best thing that could have happened to me. The arpeggios I used to read note for note, took me ages to learn a tune. If only I’d realised an arpeggio was just a broken chord. Learning may have been less difficult. There is always the full pianist mode on the arranger, something I’ve never gotten the hang of. i WOULD LOVE A GOOD TUTORIAL ON THIS To me it allways feels piano mode requires its very own arrangement, you can't just play a piece of piano sheet music and expect a perfect accompaniment.. I would love to see an indepth guide to this, Hi Bachus, me too. The guy who used to sell me my technics keyboards was amazing. He loved demoing the arranger piano’s . I could have watched him for hours. ( sometimes I think I did ) never quite sunk through what he was doing though. His hands were all over the keyboard, with runs and fills and the accompaniment was following him perfectly. Only thing that did sink thru was that it needed 3 notes to trigger a chord change, whatever single notes he played in between like the runs and fills, didn’t change the chords. Needs a totally different sort of arrangement ie split : chord Style vs pianist style mode. If you ever find a tutorial of some kind, luv to see it.
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best wishes
Rikki 🧸
Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022
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#461327 - 11/11/18 05:40 PM
Re: Are Arranger Keyboards Misunderstood?
[Re: SAM CA]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
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The full piano mode concept would make sense, but it doesn't work. Unless you play super simple stuff and/or help the keyboard to recognize the harmonic content, the result is hardly musical. It's really not a problem for me, as I hardly use the arranger features for live performances. I record the chord progression alone, or just loop it and only then I'm able to play what I want without getting conflicting notes.
There's absolutely no way for any of these keyboards to be able to fully understand the relationship between notes in a phrase and cluster....and then add the sustained notes to the mix.
On Korg forums many have disagreed with me on this over the years, so I have challenged them to show a demo. Either I got a ding dong "Piano" track...they got offended and said they don't need to show anything to prove....or they're too busy and simply disappeared!
Until I see a real person doing this in real time, the FULL piano mode is only ok bordering on useless. I don't blame the keyboards for this at all. Music is much more than a simple math. Harmonic content is not only decided by what is being played already, but also by what comes next. Any given note can be a passing note, or a chord tone depending on the next move and that's just a basic issue. No keyboard can guess that. The human element associated with all this is too complex but that's music.
Hi Sam, I’ve seen it done , the guy was brilliant at it. One thing he did make quite clear, the chord recognition on some brands is not quite up to scratch in full pianist mode. Showed me the difference between the technics and the Yamaha and rolands. The technics handled the chord changes perfectly, the other 2, not as well. P.s. I’m going back approx 15 to 20 years ago. He also wrote piano tuition books, wish he’d written one on how to play arrangers in pianist mode, or at least written some arrangements .
Edited by rikkisbears (11/11/18 05:45 PM)
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸
Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022
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