Maybe this is a discussion for The Bar, I don't know. I have heard some performances here, recently and in the past, that were nothing short of atrocious, and would be pointed out as such on practically every music board on the 'net EXCEPT THIS ONE where they garnered 100% praise and 'attaboys' . I think it's because this board has cultivated a very warm and close-knit community who would rather lie (or even die) rather than risk damaging the fragile ego of some long-standing, self-proclaimed 'master' keyboardist, member. This is especially true if that member has a history of being very helpful and a solid contributor in OTHER ways. I think the other (sort of legitimate) reason is a fear of discouraging other non-professional players from posting their music (not good!), which is at least one good reason for having a forum such as this.

So, what's the best course of action? Do we adopt a policy of "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything", OR, in the hopes of helping someone by giving them an honest evaluation and critique, you 'TELL IT LIKE IT IS', albeit in a supportive and respectful manner. It's tough telling a old, experienced, but totally talent-less player, how to improve when you know down in your heart he CAN'T, or WON'T (mainly because he doesn't believe you and feels pretty secure about his skills). Whew! Tough choice. What do you think?

chas

I'm not touching this one.
On another forum of which I'm a member, the posters' bios, visible to the left of the post, have a choice of "I welcome positive criticism", or "I want encouragement". Something to that nature anyway--I forget the actual wording.
The bad news is that very seldom anyone actually makes a critical comment.
I don't know the answer, except that I personally want to hear criticism. That's the way you learn.

That's easy for you to say 'cause you actually ARE good and don't seem to need to remind people of it. I'm talking about the people that are BAD but don't appear to recognize it and continue to proclaim their skills as a keyboardist (and in some cases, also their vocal skills). Somehow, it just grates me the wrong way. I rate my own skills as slightly below average amateur. I do think that I play 'in time' though, and occasionally even hit the right chords. Beyond that, eeehhhhh. If I knew (cold) as many songs as Russ or Don, and could pop them off on moments notice IN ANY KEY, then I might raise my rating a notch. There was a reason (aside from not wanting to be poor) that I chose NOT to be a PROFESSIONAL musician; talent was one of them. Thank goodness I was able to recognize my mediocrity early on .

chas

At the site Don referenced, the exact wording is: Critique Preference: Constructive Criticism Welcomed.

Nothing wrong with constructive criticism, and when I received it, I always did my best to utilize the information put forth by others, regardless of their skill level.

That said, there have been times when I posted a song that after hearing it again, I wished I wouldn't have posted it at all. I'm a hack musician at best, though there are those that think I'm pretty damned good. I totally relied on my vocals during a live performance, which was my strong point until the day I retired. I still record a song once in a while, just to retain my sanity since retiring (Not every day is a good sailing day). My latest recording was the Twelfth Of Never, which was performed by a number of artists, however, Johnny Mathis is the one I always idolized in this respect. To me, he was among the greatest singers of all time.

Now, when I hear one of those horrendous songs posted, I try to find something positive in the rendition posted, and for the most part I can, such as good right hand chops, great style selection, creativity, etc..., as many of the posters are good musicians. A significant number of them, however, are marginal singers at best, and some make me cringe when I hear them sing, therefore, I usually do not comment on their vocals under these circumstances. Ironically, when I first met DonM he said he was not much of a singer, but I could hear incredible quality in his vocals and urged him to do more. He has his own, very unique, style of singing that only a handful of professionals have managed to master. DNJ and Uncle Dave also have excellent vocal skills as well as entertainment skills, IMO, both of which I have seen during live performances.

When I was a youngster, my parents always said to us that "If you don't have anything good to say about someone, don't say anything at all." So, in that light, I usually can find something good about everyone's musical submissions, regardless of their skill level.

All the best,

Gary

That's easy for you to say 'cause you actually ARE good

Seems like you answered your own question! I know, after my last review, I'll think hard about posting in the future.

what qualifies ANYONE to judge?..
now there's an answer I would like to hear.
90% of people here won't or have ever posted a dam thing...but yet they will offer advice from their bedroom so called studios when in fact have never been on a stage in front of people making a full time living supporting their families or themselves. Mr. Know it Alls don't impress me, ...but what does impress me is when someone posts their work, songs, demos, etc, to show what they are talking about to back up their statements!! ....sorry if this post was a bit hard no harm intended just being very honest here agree or not....

I am done venting..I'll duck now

Man it's hot in Ohio

It's all "unspectacular preparation for glorious presentation".

Donny, there are no qualifications to make these judgements. In this instance, fellow musicians and entertainers are merely stating their opinions, which is perfectly acceptable in most instances.

Gary

Thats all well and good gary but does it really help someone?

If we hold ourselves to a higher standard here individually and collectively than other forums, I don't see that as negative. I myself have no need to judge others on skill levels, and we can't forget we should we!come all levels.Keep in mind when posting publicly, some just want to share without looking for a response, some solicit help through asking for comments, and some just want to show off..
That said the opinions of others is important here, and once you put it out there it becomes fair game. I often solicit critiques privately. We do have a mechanism here to communicate that way and perhaps that is the best way to convey a helpful criticism. We don't need any "Simon Cowell"s here to provide embarrassment and drama, do we?
And if you perform publicly, the audience and the one who signs the check are the only ones you have to impress..

All I am saying is for example if you listen to someones posted work, demo or whatever,.....yes it's out there for gentlemanly criticism but in addition you should at least have the common courtesy to also included with your post provide a sound or video demo of you playing what your talking about to back up your statement to show the original poster so he can benefit from what your actually saying buy listening and /or seeing it done....is that too much to ask?......either it be ....more EQ, timing, using a different sound or style, off key vocals, etc, etc. ...that's what really helps others not blind behind the screen unqualified pros or cons which help no one... think I had too much coffee today ...



PS,....and another thing I dislike is when someone always lead off the post before a demo they have recorded with negativity .. instead of being positive and proud of what they have done....
otherwise why share it?

"here you go with all the mistakes included"......
"just one take, Live"...bla bla bla

I recently posted a song I recorded and got mostly constructive criticism. Nothing mean spirited, actually all of it was well thought out. I am reflecting on what members told me and trying to improve. I really appreciate anyone taking the time to listen to my work in this day and age where it seems everyone is trying to get their music heard.

""here you go with all the mistakes included"......
"just one take, Live"...bla bla bla"
Guilty as charged.

I agree Donny, but we all know that's just a way of someone trying to get ahead of (and ward off) any possible negative criticism. Human nature.

chas

Don & Chas agreed BUT,....The music is the music and you can see right thru it no need for the Preamble defense mechanism
...just post your work and DUCK

I think it is important to say whether it was multi-tracked, a midi file, an MP3, or just recorded on the fly. If you don't want to know, don't read that part!

Opinions are like pot holes. Every street has one.....or something like that.

Personally, I look forward to all musical submissions and many have motivated me to learn the songs which I have since added to my performing repertoire. I think the first was "The Nearness of You". Several here submitted their renditions. All had positive points. I worked up my version and use it fairly often on gigs. There have been submissions of songs I already do and I may like the style they used better than mine, or the tempo, pads, or style edits, etc.

There have been many other submissions that I have worked on. The latest came from Donny's posting of "Driving My Life Away". I loved it. Okay, so it wasn't a SZ member but a demonstration of good use of the Genos. It grabbed me. The chords are simple enough, but I am still struggling with the fast paced lyrics....it WILL eventually end up in my play list.

As for recording myself....I tried it years ago and found it to be a hassle, too time consuming and I was my own worst critic. I'm happy to play for and with anyone here that wants to sponsor a jam like the ones Gary's and DonM had. I learned a lot there and made some long term friends in the process. I don't know if any of my material would have passed SZ critics, but no one threw anything at me.

Eddie

It isn't so much "What you say" (or write)... It's the way you say it! Constructive criticism coupled with anything nice you can point out usually works with most performers, artists, composers and song-writers. But be cautioned... there are those that will "go ballistic on you" if it isn't all "sweetness and light." LOL!

IMHO... a really bad review should be shared only with the person who posted the song or work... in private.

I suspect most of you remember the "way it was" when you took that first step. It takes a bit of courage or even bravado to perform... and I am the equivalent of the "Cowardly Lion" when it comes to actually singing in public. That does not keep me from admiring those of you who do perform... and do it with such style and grace.

----Dave Rice

Years ago I was working a full time gig in Ocean City, Md. when a acquaintance commented that it really bugged him that I was working steady when he knew musicians walking the streets of Baltimore, Phily and New York that could play circles around me. When I first started out I had several people tell me I should just play & not sing because I couldn't sing worth crap. It bothered me cause like most musicians I have an ego. The more I thought about it though the more I came to realize that in my case it wasn't how great a musician I was, it was the fact that I played the songs the folks wanted to hear. In time I got better equipment and worked on a better sound.

However, all of that being said, I'm not going to submit a tune with single note melody and basic style background. It seems that a great deal of the stuff posted is really rather mediocre and the performer would be best served by practicing on some advanced skills.

This opera singer was very nervous as he was about to perform in a small Italian town known to be full of very knowledgeable opera critics. He was very surprised after his first performance when he was greeted with thunderous applause because he didn't think he did very well. Nevertheless, he went back on for an encore. This time the applause was even greater. He was mystified but went back on stage to thank the audience and announce that because of time restrictions, he couldn't do another encore. At this time, a man in the audience stood up, shook his fist, and shouted...'YOU'LL SING IT...UNTIL YOU LEARN IT'!



chas

I think I should refrain from critiques of members playing arrangers because, as performance tools, I don't like them and don't use them.

The only one I really enjoy is Don because of the way he injects his personality into his performances and his unique way of emulating a slide steel guitar.

I do use arrangers for film roughs and consider them to be indispensable for those.

What I like about Don's work is not the arranger at all, but the vocal, guitar and rapport with the audience.

Chas is a killer player, in spite of what he says. He only uses an arranger for the drum machine. With him, I like his arrangements, changes and pure, historic B-3 tone. He's a stylist and a good one.

Lot's of others are better entertainers than musicians, and that's hard to demonstrate on a recording. I'm not an entertainer and really don't want to be, so those submissions, while appreciated for the effort, really don't do much for me.

I will say that there is no excuse for bad changes, and inflated egos are a real turn-off.

Those do pop up occasionally, here, and I just try to bite my lip.

Be well, all,


Russ

Grace before the facts. A good rule to follow. Complement the player for contributing. You can then add a comment. But if your nature is to criticize because it makes you feel good SHUT-UP!

Just my opinion.
John C.
PS, we learn by our errors – so welcome them.

Several years ago I saw a member post a video after others had and was encouraged to do so. It was perhaps not the level of others and he was chewed up by some. He has never posted a performance since. Nothing good was accomplished there..

Russ, still have /use the ketron sd5?

Hi Guy's

I'd just like to say that the response I've had to my posts have in the main been fairly positive but also I've had some very useful advice to which I try to respond. In the past I even took Mark's advice and went for singing lessons, I think it made a difference LOL. With regard to adverse comments I think the principle is, If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen.

As a result of this post I went back and had a listen to some of my old postings and I have to say that in the main, I think (hope), they have improved.

On a positive note, excuse the pun, thanks' to all who took the time to listen I do welcome any comments good or bad and in spite of some of the previous points made I will keep posting the odd tune.

PS: I would be nice to see a few more folks posting their music.

Kind Regards and keep well, Col

Sparky, it's in the box Jim (Zuki) delivered it in. I use one of my ancient SD-60's for drums.

R.

Alot of the other forums & boards I used to frequent the Original Posters are trying to "make it" either as a performer or songwriter. So the criticism needs to be honest, sometimes brutally. On this board I do take the high road when someone says their live audience says they are the bomb when my ears tell me a different story when I hear their music.

This place is more "homey" & there are many hobbyists, who are NOT pursuing a career or fame. It is important for me not to offend them as they have no illusions of grandeur.

But if someone "thinks" they are good on this forum, & they are average, at least to these ears, I will simply let it ride.

Excellent post.

chas

Wisdom is an earned attribute... never endowed. I agree with Steve.

I used to think I was "pretty good" until my wife and I vacationed in Nashville for a week two years in a row. There you see people working as waiters and waitresses that can top anyone in your hometown (or at least my relatively small area). After I got over the shock, I think it did me a lot of good and I raised my standards. But to the original point, I comment on performances that I both like and that are at least above average. I keep in mind the fact that Vince Gill (fill in artist for your favorite genre) is probably too busy to post here and the average performer is a semi-pro "regular guy" although occasionally there are some outstanding performers on the various forums.