Is a Singer a Musician ?

This question came up in another thread .

My opinion , a Singer is not a Musician .
The human voice is not a musical instrument .

What is your opinion ?

Get lost (sorry... but you are just too much to bear).

Please clarify your opinion about why it's so.
Why is a singer not a miusician?
Why is the human voice not a musical instrument?

In my opinin it's no doubt at all: A singer, who is a real singer, is a musician, and the voice is a musical instrument.

Did you ever listen to a choir that perform great music by only use of human voices?
If not, you should try it out.

Why do we humans allways have to label things and put it in boxes...

Everyone in the world knows what a singer is and what he does..

So why even bother with labeling it?



On top of that, in my vision everyone is an individual and does things differently, you just cant label humans.

Hi Andrea ,

Are you able to discuss in a less PRIMITIVE way than you
do at this moment .
Do you think this forum is just for you and your friends .
I know there are many members of this forum that don't give
their opinions because of this kind of reactions .

Some years ago you attacked my message because my English
was "Poor " and yes I have to agree that my English is not
very good .

ADMIN ( NIGEL ) IS THIS ALLOWED ?

No one has to agree with my messages but I don't accept this
RUDE, AGRESSIVE and PRIMITIVE way of speaking to me .


Today I will visit a concert of a Band ( DI GOYIM ) with a
Portugese female Singer .
So you see I have no problem with singers .
Last month I was in a concert with 2 singer songwriters .
I am a fan of some great Choirs , I like to hear them .
Next week I will visit a singer with a Big Band !

I don't hate singers , not at all !

You want primitive? I'll give you primitive.
In the first place, I didn't remember having criticized your english in the past, but if I did this a proof that you have the power to annoy me and things have not changed recently; on the contrary, in the last months I have developed a very low tolerance for stupidity and this thread is one of the dumbest I have ever seen on the Internet (and not just on Synthzone).
Before your last reply I was undecided if you were a troll trying to provoke us with your silly posts about karaoke sites (you even repetead the address FOUR times in the other thread), but now I have come to the conclusion that you simply have a thick skull.
And I am sure of another thing: you are not a musician and will never be one, so I wonder why you keep posting your nonsense here... unless of course you are really a troll.

Hi Andrea ,

From the first moment that there are Arranger Keyboards and
Synthesizers I always played these instruments .
So you could say I am a musician .

Your problem is I think " your world is too small " , you can
not understand that there is more than you know .

And by being RUDE and AGGRESSIVE you try to defend your very
small knowledge of what is happening in the world .

I am not provoking other musicians I try to tell them what is
possible with their instruments .

Now I have to leave you because I am going to a concert .

If you want to know from Nigel if this is allowed, then you send him a pm instead of discussing this all in the open..

Everyone knows where discussing these things on a forum discussion leads to, and thats not something constructive.

Hi

The most mature will keep silent now...

Regards
Jørgen

Your kidding around, right ??? Is it April 1st yet ???

When I was shopping keyboards to try the OMB thingy, a fellow from Australia helped me a bunch. Somewhere along our conversation, relationship he referred to himself as not being a musician. He said, I'm not a musician, I'm a drummer." LOL!

I always considered someone who played a musical instrument, and knew music in the form of musical notes, or chord theory etc., a musician.

Someone who sings and especially who sings and doesn't know a Bb from a K7th is not a musician but is known as a vocalist. We had an excellent Vocalist in my first band in 1857 for the R&R we played. He was one of the best I've worked with. However, he didn't even know what key he was singing in. Would anyone who is a musician call him a musician? Think about it!

Ray Charles was a Vocalist and one of the top musicians on earth. Frank Sinatra referred to him as, "The only genius in our business." The best vocalist are usually musicians with a few exceptions. By the way Nat Cole and Frank Sinatra both played piano, so they were musicians too.

One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music.

Drumming On A Fat Man

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwn46pnNZqY


Guy Plays A Cat Organ (BBC)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxEHi6Mlzmk

Geez Boo....So Bill Haley and Little Richard did NOT invent R&R?
Picturing you playing R&R seems a bit of a stretch...even back in 1857. Or maybe Jazz hadn't been invented yet.

Eddie

Eddie, If someone would have brought me a Coltrane, Getz, Rollins or Dexter Gordon recording and said learn this if you want to play in our band, it wasn't going to happen.

The Jazz standards I know was learned the hard way. I'm not a bebop musician, I can't play that fast.

While my audiences consider me to be a musician, I personally, have always considered myself to be an entertainer. Yes, I can sing and have been singing since I was very young. I can pick out a tune on a guitar, do a bit of strumming on a 12-string, play a mandolin, harmonica, and tenor banjo, and I usually know what key I'm singing in. While I was down in the Florida Keys last winter, a charter captain that I knew from years past in Maryland came up to me while I was doing a Jimmy Buffett song on the PSR-3000. Turns out that when fishing is slow in Chesapeake Bay he set up a karaoke rig at the local American Legion where he lives in Maryland. When he saw my gear he said "Wow! That's the neatest karaoke machine I ever saw." Fortunately, his very attractive wife smacked him on the side of his head and explained that this was not karaoke. Then he pointed to the laptop on top of my console. I explained to him it was for lyrics when I forget them. I then closed the laptop and proceeded to perform for the next two hours without it. Love that lady!

So, are singers musicians? I would say yes and their voice is the same as using their right hand on the keyboard. It just produces a different sound, and a lot more versatility.

Before there was Bill Haley, Little Richard and Boo Hargis, there was Bo Didley and Big Joe Turner



Cheers,

Gary

Anyone who makes music is a musician.................

Why put more into this question than necessary?? The basic word "music" with the suffix "ian" says it all........

Yep...that works for me.

"Music"..."Ian"..."musician".

Ian

they should re name this as General Drama Forum !!!!!!!!!!

Nigel you should make a section on the Forum and call it General Drama so all the Drama Queens can go and argue.

Can't believe I read this when I should be getting ready to watch football.

The human voice could be referred too as a stringed instrument and those things are called "VOCAL CHORDS" after all.

In the early big band days, union sanctioned contracts read ’14 (or whatever number) musicians and a drummer’. That certainly would not be applicable today at least for big band and show band drummers – did you ever see a big band or show band drum chart?

The voice is recognized as a musical instrument that can be developed and improved, and that can and should be trained as much as any other musical instrument.

IMHO, Me-thinks that the person who posed the initial question is merely a provocateur and is really not seriously concerned about whether or not a vocalist is a musician.

Gary, I do Flip Flop and Fly just about every gig … I’ve been using a midi file for the past several years that is much hipper than any styles I have.

Ciao,
Jerry

Oh I think Deb means well. Not that I necessarily like the subjects but we don't have to read them or comment unless we want to.

I think the question 'Is a singer a musician' is certainly provocative, but Deb seems to consider it as a serious question. If you changed the question into 'Is EVERY singer a musician?', then I would surely answer: NO - because IMO it depends on not only if he/she is able to hit the right tone pitch, but also if there is a minimum musicality in terms of having a feeling for harmonies and rhythm. The numerous song contest series on TV etc. have put singing so much in the focus that there are indeed a lot of singers who ONLY have a nicely sounding voice and hit the tone pitch, but have no idea of anything else (and I don't refer to theoretical knowledge, but FEELING for harmonies etc.).

To a certain degree I think I understand Deb's motivation although it's definitely "of-the-wall" to go so far. I often accompany a soloist on church weddings, I know that sometimes singing pop songs she isn't used to she would easily get lost and has to rely on me quickly adjusting to any accidental leaps she makes - but the audience exclusively congratulates her afterwards and treats, or rather ignores, me like an 'interchangeable accompanying attachment'.
But I don't see a real chance to change this attitude to focus so much on the singer, at least she knows she needs me for difficult songs so I benefit from it as she negotiates good fees.

Generally, IMO a singer who is musical in terms of harmony and rhythm is definitely a musician. It would make sense to put singers into the same category as players of SOLO instruments: a violonist or trumpetist is also more melody- than harmony-oriented and might have some deficits understanding harmonic contexts.

I repeat:
Full Definition of INSTRUMENT
1
: a device used to produce music; also : a singing voice
2
a : a means whereby something is achieved, performed, or furthered

Furthermore, knowing Andrea as I do, I can say that he is truly a gentleman in every sense of the word ... someone/something must REALLY strike him hard for him to respond this way ...

I can't believe intelligent musicians would consider DJ's musicians, they play music using a cd player and doesn't know a Q# from a Cb.
I have an uncle who can play Night In Tunisia on a comb and tissue paper is he a musician too. I can't believe these comments.
Vocalist and musicians are like Bricklayers and hod carriers. One does one thing the other does another. One hauls the brick and one lays the brick to accomplish producing a brick structure. A Vocalist sings and a Musician accompanies the Vocalist to accomplish structuring a song or music if you prefer.

Lets start an easier thread. This one is to complicated for the one finger players and the two and three chord players. and guys like Dave who can't carry a tune in a bucket. Boy this should get things heated up now.

Okay, here we go: Is it possible for a Vocalist and a Musician to be entertainers, humans and Bull s**t'ers too? Ha ha! You guys are a riot what a mixture eh?

Top deejays like van Buuren and Tiesto are actually musicians... As they actually make their own music with computers and keyboards.... Those deejays in todays dance sene are composers ... The time that they just used to change from cd to cd is long ago..

Tiesto has more synths in his studio then most of us have keys on their arrangers.

Bachus, We have musicians that are bricklayers me, fisherman and Golfers DonM, carpenters Fran, DJs Donny so on and so forth. No problem understanding this eh? You're missing the point. I ask you point blank. Do you consider a person who spins records, CDs or whatever and does not know squat about music a musician friend? REALLY?

I'm gonna do something that makes since and watch football to get ready for the Saints and Panthers tonight.

Talk about 'much ado about nothing'. I think this has more to do with the poster than the post (and I know a little something about that). Would this have generated the same amount of xa@#$%tr%$Z&* if, oh let's say Donny or Gary or even Boo, had asked the same question......which was "is a singer a musician?". The only possible answer is, some are, some aren't. Who really cares anyway?

chas

Right on Chas!

Gary

When this stuff comes up why can't we all just enjoy it and have fun. I mean the only other thing we have is our egos to have all of our fans to tell us how great we are, or watching the Saints play football. Oh!, I have my wonderful English Bulldog puppy Gemma. I'm her paw paw. You should all get a puppy. Look how humble and quite it has made me. I think I might even live a bit longer. I've got to look after her. Besides, she needs me. Nobody else does anymore. Try it! You'll like it, guaranteed!!!

Well as the question "Is A Singer A Musician ?" is totally ridiculous I think Andrea was extremely reserved in his response. I am surprised it was not more abrasive. How would anyone with any intelligence think anything other than "YES !!!". This is such a pointless topic I will close it very soon.

This is a very bad response Chas. I can only assume by it is that you don't sing ... is that correct????

That is correct.....although I don't see anything in my response that would necessarily make you think that. But are you saying "Get lost" is an acceptable response but MY post is "very bad"? Are there different rules of conduct for different people? Over the years I've always admired your fairness and even-handedness and your reluctance to 'play favorites'. Your responses here leave me confused. I have certainly heard more ridiculous questions posed here without the backlash. What has changed?

chas

Technically, digital keyboards aren't instruments either, or electronic organs, for that matter - they make no sound. Push no air. The Human voice is a moving mass that moves air in a controlled fashion. That's an instrument to me, but the local unions used to separate the singers from the musicians .... don't get me started on THAT topic again!

My humble answer is YES - the human voice is an instrument.

Thank you Nigel,

but I feel the need to clarify my position, especially after Chas' remark (are you saying "Get lost" is an acceptable response but MY post is "very bad"?)

Not many days ago Nigel wrote, in response to Donny, something like "The Synthzone has no opinion of its own: it's you, the posters, that make it good or bad".
Well, I think that there are some of us who most of the times write posts that really lift the overall level of the discussion, while other members give a contribution that is not so clearly defined, maybe because they are a bit confused in the first place (check some of Donny's post on the Tyros 5 and try to tell me what his opinion is: he is capable of writing two completely contradictory things in two different threads, the same day).
Now, let's come to deb: he writes that I already criticized him in the past for his english but I made a search and couldn't find anything: does this mean that he was using a different moniker at the time?
Now he is back and his first post is a suggestion to replace singers with pre-recorded tracks and finally he asks the question "Is the singer a musician?"
Tony Mads gave him a polite reply, quoting a dictionary:

(Full Definition of INSTRUMENT
1: a device used to produce music; also : a singing voice)

and what was deb's answer?

Hi Tony ,

This could be a new thread with the title
"Is a singer a Musician ? "

I will start it today .

Thanks for your good message .

Well, I have to confess that at this point I thought: "OK, it's official: the guy is a moron".
Poor Tony was dumbfounded too and he replied:

Deb ... perhaps you missed the part of the definition that INCLUDED the human voice as an "instrument" ?!?

Full Definition of INSTRUMENT
1: a device used to produce music; also : a singing voice

But deb went on undeterred with the other thread (this one), where I had the reaction Chas was referring to.
A few posts above Don Mason wrote:

Oh I think Deb means well. Not that I necessarily like the subjects but we don't have to read them or comment unless we want to.

Words of wisdom, apparently... or not?
If we accept that is our responsability to keep high the level of the discussion in order to draw a benefit from it, the behavior suggested by Don (whom I like and respect a lot) could be perhaps compared to the three little monkeys that cover their mouth, eyes and ears? And what would happen if the same behavior would be applied to our everyday life? Could we just avoid reading or commenting the reality around us if we don't like it and think that we live in a society that sucks? Whose duty is it to change it, or to avoid that this Forum (often referred to as our secure haven from everyday life) becomes a less pleasant place or a dull one?
If Nigel still intends to close this topic and sees fit it, I could open a new thread to answer these questions.
Thank you for your attention.

I've always been a fan of those three monkeys actually.
I see your point Andrea, and maybe this forum is a microcosm of life in general, but I'd personally prefer just to skip the stuff in which I'd rather not be involved, unless it really IS important to me. This isn't!
On a somewhat related thought, with such a diverse collection of people from various nations, continents and political and religious persuasions, I am trying to become increasing careful about how I phrase my comments.
I never mean to offend anyone, but it is so easy to do so when words can mean different things to different people, even within our own segments of the community.
For example I started to make a really funny joke about the three monkeys, but after writing it, it occurred to me that someone might be offended by it, even though it would have to be interpreted totally wrong, with implications that I certainly would never intend. This occurred to me only after careful re-examining the words for any POSSIBLE offense that might be done. It sometimes is mentally tiring to have to weigh every sentence against misinterpretation, but being married has sharpened my skill in this area.
I'm actually up this late at night worrying about whether my voice is an instrument.
Peace on Earth to all who believe in it! (No offense intended.)

Chas nothing has changed. But the response "The only possible answer is, some are, some aren't. Who really cares anyway?" is just so stupid when the only obvious answer to anyone with intelligence is "YES". To answer otherwise is just simply exhibits a lack of intelligent thought and to finish it with "Who really cares anyway?" is just so insensitive to singers I have to question your judgement in general. Does that answer your question?

Just like players of instruments singers are all musicians, some good some bad. But musicians all the same. The answer sure isn't "some are, some aren't" ... go away and think about that for a while. Maybe after giving it some logical thought you will become less confused.

As I said in my opening this question came up in another
thread , so I was not the first to ask this question .
I just gave my answer to this question in this thread .

How do you understand this ( I wrote it when I was asked to
write a concert review for a newspaper )
And sometimes I read the same in reviews of other critics .
"...BOTH THE INSTRUMENTAL PART AS WELL AS THE VOCAL PART
WERE OF A HIGH LEVEL "

At the concert I visited yesterday I asked the same question
to some other visitors , most of them agreed with me .
Not all of them .
Singer or musician , it is not a matter of level but I still
see a difference .

There is "instrumental" music and most people know what I
mean with this .

Gee thanks, Nigel. I've been called a lot of things in my life (I mean a LOT) but never "stupid". Now I guess I can add that to the list. But let me clarify my answer (which Gary appeared to agree with, btw - unless he was just being sarcastic).

Most people in the music business will usually identify themselves as either a singer or a musician. I think that defines what their primary role is in producing a piece of music, NOT necessarily what they may be CAPABLE of doing. To be sure there are musicians that can sing and singers that can play and a precious few that are identified as both (Alicia Keys, Diana Krall, Esparanza Spaulding, etc.). So, when I see a singer who plays no instrument and whose primary function is to sing, in my mind, that's a singer. When I see a musician whose primary job is play an instrument, in my mind, that's a musician. As I stated above, some can do both, which is why I said "some are, some aren't". And how is saying "who cares anyway" taking a 'shot' at singers? What I meant was, what does it matter how you LABEL someone, it doesn't change who they are. If THAT is insensitive, think how it feels to be called "STUPID" and "lacking in intelligence". Really made my day.

chas

I really must say, no matter if the initial question of this thread is off the wall or not - it is not my idea of a forum administrator to insult other members as stupid and to say that a statement like 'Get lost' is just the answer of choice!

Although Chas and I don't always see eye to eye on the occasional topic, after reading his responses, I honestly don't see anything in them that would be termed "stupid". Actually, I thought they were worded quite well.

As for the question presented by the OP being out of place, this very question was posed to our Musician's Union Local #355 back in the early 70's or thereabouts (it may have been earlier)...up until then, a singer did not have to join the Musicians Union unless he or she played a musical instrument when performing. Now, that could have been as simple as a Tambourine, Egg Shakers, or a Cabasa, but if you played something other than just doing the vocal, you had to join.

Of course, that rule was changed, and singers, who played or not, were (and still are) required to join, probably to even things out among band members, but no doubt seen as another way for the Union to make more money.

A rather strange topic, but, I have seen much stranger ones on SZ.

Ian

If you play an instrument, compose, or conduct, then it is obvious that you know music! Therefore you're a musician.

If you sing and play an instrument you're a musician and you are a vocalist too, and you're possibly also an entertainer if you play and sing in front of an audience.

To me if you only know 3 chords and can only play the same 10 songs over and over all your life, I figure you must be slow or very simple. Perhaps "STUPID?" One of the three.

If you only sing and don't know anything about music or do not play any kind of instrument, you're a vocalist. PEOPLE WHO AREN'T INTELLIGENT ENOUGH TO GRASP THIS FACT ARE STUPID. PERIOD. WHAT ELSE COULD THEY BE, MAYBE A YANKEE OR A CAJUN?

Just because you possess a voice and it is considered an instrument does not make you a musician. WHY? Because if that were so, does that mean if you possess a trombone in your home and can't play a note, ARE YOU A TROMBONIST, STUPID?

If Nigel the owner moderator can call someone who knows as much about "MUSIC" as Chas "STUPID" I can say whatever the hell I want to say. Put that in your pipe and smoke it Deb! Ha ha, whomever you are. LOL!

I wonder if I'll be banned again? I said hell. I could get into to trouble for that expression, but I know that I'm safe with stupid. I'm positive Nigel is not a hypocrite even if he does play the guitar!!!

DonM wrote this for me Nigel. Just kidding. It was Gary, Dave and Donny that teamed up to put this together. Everyone knows that I'm not intelligent enough to compose this by myself. I'm just a Cajun boy carrying the message! Please do not kill the messenger.

Man if this doesn't stir the pot I don't know what will, and I'm going to quit trying. I'll leave it up to DIKI and TONY HUGHES to tend to that.

Just wondering.. Those that sing in the shower.. Are they considered vocalists also??

Imo humbly so, a trained vocalists (a singer in the case deb might be refering to) requires in depth knowledge of music, articulation and timing and extensive vocal training such to refining how to master ones instrument. And such would have rightly obtain their title as a musician.

For what it is worth I assumed (as I read it) that Nigel was saying the argument was stupid rather than that Chas himself was stupid. There is a difference.

As for the the topic in question Tony Mads already posted a definition. I am not sure of his particular source but Merriam Webster dictionary definitely agrees with him....

mu·si·cian
noun \myü-ˈzi-shən\

: a person who writes, sings, or plays music

Wikipedia states.....

Musicians can specialize in any musical style, and some musicians play in a variety of different styles. Examples of a musician's possible skills include conducting, singing, composing, arranging, and the orchestration of music.

It seems a silly thing to argue about but if we must then the official definitions for the most part seem to concur that a singer is a musician. None of the definitions I could find argue that a singer is not a musician.

Personally it would never occur to me that a singer was not a musician but if that does occur to you then unfortunately you seem to be in an uninformed minority. (that was my nice way of saying that you are wrong )

Hugz'n'stuff

Heh, I didn't think I'd join this discussion, but you're on the right track, Kytrinh. My aunt was a soprano with the The Royal Opera House Covent Garden. To be so, means lifelong, ongoing training, with annual auditions to see if you're on top of the task. An operatically trained voice goes places I, and probably most others on here, can only imagine. Plus you need to be able to sightread classical scores. Now, there should be little doubt as to whether or not the voice is an instrument and that the possessor of such an instrument is very much a musician.

Guess this is very close to the right answer?

If they possess all of the knowledge and training you mention, they, obviously like Frank Sinatra and Nat Cole, may play piano or some other instrument and would definitely be a musician. Geez, I can see some here will never get it. It reminds me of the idiots that don't agree with the professionals who figure things out and say that there is really only 11 maybe 12 actual minutes in a NFL football game. Counting from snapped ball to play whistled dead.

Boo, Pavarotti didn't play an instrument, but he definitely was among the greatest vocalist to ever grace a stage.

Luciano Pavarotti

1. British English: musician Pronunciation for musician A musician is a person who plays a musical instrument as their job or hobby.He was a brilliant musician.mjuːˈzɪʃən NOUN

2. mu·si·cian
myo͞oˈziSHən/Submit
noun a person who plays a musical instrument, esp. as a profession, or is musically talented.
"your father was a fine musician"
synonyms: player, performer, instrumentalist, accompanist, soloist, virtuoso, maestro;

3.musician - definition of musician by the Free Online Dictionary
www.thefreedictionary.com/musician‎
One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music. [Middle English musicien, from Old French, from Latin m sica, music; see music.] ...

Only the Merriam dictionary mentions the term (singer) and that's because they are as stupid as some people I know. The Merriam people must work for the Obama administration or some other stupid liberal asinine politically correct outfit.

Some of you guys might make good fighters because of your hard heads and stupidity. Maybe you should all get jobs with Merriam's dictionary.

Exactly !!! I never said Chas was stupid. But I did think the statement was. Intelligent people do say things sometimes that can be perceived as such.

Roseanne Barr sang the National Anthem for the Superbowl on worldwide television to one of the largest audiences ever to watch television. So she must be one of the greatest musicians who ever walked the face of the Earth.

Nigel or another hi-tech person please start a poll to see who agrees with this statement and fix it so they that they have to sign their name and this way we will know who to take serious or who to ignore and laugh at in the future as "STUPID" eh?
Man this is more fun than I ever use to have with Dave.

Just to support the approach that the human singing voice is to be regarded as a musical instrument, I found a scientific paper about the voice as an example of the 'physics of musical instruments' (University of Regensburg).
http://www.physik.uni-regensburg.de/forschung/schwarz/Mechanik/MenschlicheStimme.pdf
Unfortunately, it's all in German, but I'll translate the introduction:
"The instrument of the voice is composed of three main components: an energy reservoir (the lungs), an oscillator (the vocal chords) and a resonating space."

Generally, I think the discussion got quite interesting, it's getting more philosophical so that the main goal is not to find a clear, final definition and "fix" it, but to get into a hermeneutic circle, in which you arrive at the same point of discussion again and again after a while, but on a slightly higher level of insight ;-)

Gosh, Boo. You were doing so well there for awhile .

chas El Stupido

So, Was the question this: Is a singer a musician?
Or this: Is the Voice a musical instrument?

Therefore, if you own a voice (a musical instrument)and can sing and this makes you a musician,

Then if you own a toilet and can take a crap in it, this has to confirm that you are definitely beyond the shadow of a doubt a plumber.

Hey I just realized I own a bunch of wrenches and tools, so I am definitely beyond the shadow of a doubt an auto mechanic, maybe an engineer, who knows there's zillions of possibilities, infiniti. I need to stop for a while and catch my breath.

If I buy Gary's sail boat then I'll be a sailor. No, I'll buy DonM's golf clubs then I'll be a pro golfer. Maybe I can drink what Dave drinks and then I will become crazy for redheads.

That's just about how stupid it is for a comment to be expressed that a vocalist who knows nothing about music other than the lyrics to a song is a musician. A vocalist who fits into this category isn't a pimple on a musician's A$$. HA ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Now this is the final word and settles the matter. So, why don't you shut this down Nigel?

You're loosing ground, Boo. Povaratti studied music for six years, his voice WAS HIS musical instrument, and he WAS a musician by every standard. If you bought my sailboat, and learned how to sail, you WOULD BE A SAILOR. If you joined the Navy, you would be a sailor, but probably couldn't sail a sailboat.

If you took a crap in a toilet, you would be a crapper, not a plumber. Like I said, you're loosing it! Go outside and shovel some snow, then come in and drink a tall, Green Coconut Margarette, take two aspirin and call me in the morning if you don't feel better.

Gary