When this stuff comes up why can't we all just enjoy it and have fun. I mean the only other thing we have is our egos to have all of our fans to tell us how great we are, or watching the Saints play football. Oh!, I have my wonderful English Bulldog puppy Gemma. I'm her paw paw. You should all get a puppy. Look how humble and quite it has made me. I think I might even live a bit longer. I've got to look after her. Besides, she needs me. Nobody else does anymore. Try it! You'll like it, guaranteed!!!

Well as the question "Is A Singer A Musician ?" is totally ridiculous I think Andrea was extremely reserved in his response. I am surprised it was not more abrasive. How would anyone with any intelligence think anything other than "YES !!!". This is such a pointless topic I will close it very soon.

This is a very bad response Chas. I can only assume by it is that you don't sing ... is that correct????

That is correct.....although I don't see anything in my response that would necessarily make you think that. But are you saying "Get lost" is an acceptable response but MY post is "very bad"? Are there different rules of conduct for different people? Over the years I've always admired your fairness and even-handedness and your reluctance to 'play favorites'. Your responses here leave me confused. I have certainly heard more ridiculous questions posed here without the backlash. What has changed?

chas

Technically, digital keyboards aren't instruments either, or electronic organs, for that matter - they make no sound. Push no air. The Human voice is a moving mass that moves air in a controlled fashion. That's an instrument to me, but the local unions used to separate the singers from the musicians .... don't get me started on THAT topic again!

My humble answer is YES - the human voice is an instrument.

Thank you Nigel,

but I feel the need to clarify my position, especially after Chas' remark (are you saying "Get lost" is an acceptable response but MY post is "very bad"?)

Not many days ago Nigel wrote, in response to Donny, something like "The Synthzone has no opinion of its own: it's you, the posters, that make it good or bad".
Well, I think that there are some of us who most of the times write posts that really lift the overall level of the discussion, while other members give a contribution that is not so clearly defined, maybe because they are a bit confused in the first place (check some of Donny's post on the Tyros 5 and try to tell me what his opinion is: he is capable of writing two completely contradictory things in two different threads, the same day).
Now, let's come to deb: he writes that I already criticized him in the past for his english but I made a search and couldn't find anything: does this mean that he was using a different moniker at the time?
Now he is back and his first post is a suggestion to replace singers with pre-recorded tracks and finally he asks the question "Is the singer a musician?"
Tony Mads gave him a polite reply, quoting a dictionary:

(Full Definition of INSTRUMENT
1: a device used to produce music; also : a singing voice)

and what was deb's answer?

Hi Tony ,

This could be a new thread with the title
"Is a singer a Musician ? "

I will start it today .

Thanks for your good message .

Well, I have to confess that at this point I thought: "OK, it's official: the guy is a moron".
Poor Tony was dumbfounded too and he replied:

Deb ... perhaps you missed the part of the definition that INCLUDED the human voice as an "instrument" ?!?

Full Definition of INSTRUMENT
1: a device used to produce music; also : a singing voice

But deb went on undeterred with the other thread (this one), where I had the reaction Chas was referring to.
A few posts above Don Mason wrote:

Oh I think Deb means well. Not that I necessarily like the subjects but we don't have to read them or comment unless we want to.

Words of wisdom, apparently... or not?
If we accept that is our responsability to keep high the level of the discussion in order to draw a benefit from it, the behavior suggested by Don (whom I like and respect a lot) could be perhaps compared to the three little monkeys that cover their mouth, eyes and ears? And what would happen if the same behavior would be applied to our everyday life? Could we just avoid reading or commenting the reality around us if we don't like it and think that we live in a society that sucks? Whose duty is it to change it, or to avoid that this Forum (often referred to as our secure haven from everyday life) becomes a less pleasant place or a dull one?
If Nigel still intends to close this topic and sees fit it, I could open a new thread to answer these questions.
Thank you for your attention.

I've always been a fan of those three monkeys actually.
I see your point Andrea, and maybe this forum is a microcosm of life in general, but I'd personally prefer just to skip the stuff in which I'd rather not be involved, unless it really IS important to me. This isn't!
On a somewhat related thought, with such a diverse collection of people from various nations, continents and political and religious persuasions, I am trying to become increasing careful about how I phrase my comments.
I never mean to offend anyone, but it is so easy to do so when words can mean different things to different people, even within our own segments of the community.
For example I started to make a really funny joke about the three monkeys, but after writing it, it occurred to me that someone might be offended by it, even though it would have to be interpreted totally wrong, with implications that I certainly would never intend. This occurred to me only after careful re-examining the words for any POSSIBLE offense that might be done. It sometimes is mentally tiring to have to weigh every sentence against misinterpretation, but being married has sharpened my skill in this area.
I'm actually up this late at night worrying about whether my voice is an instrument.
Peace on Earth to all who believe in it! (No offense intended.)

Chas nothing has changed. But the response "The only possible answer is, some are, some aren't. Who really cares anyway?" is just so stupid when the only obvious answer to anyone with intelligence is "YES". To answer otherwise is just simply exhibits a lack of intelligent thought and to finish it with "Who really cares anyway?" is just so insensitive to singers I have to question your judgement in general. Does that answer your question?

Just like players of instruments singers are all musicians, some good some bad. But musicians all the same. The answer sure isn't "some are, some aren't" ... go away and think about that for a while. Maybe after giving it some logical thought you will become less confused.

As I said in my opening this question came up in another
thread , so I was not the first to ask this question .
I just gave my answer to this question in this thread .

How do you understand this ( I wrote it when I was asked to
write a concert review for a newspaper )
And sometimes I read the same in reviews of other critics .
"...BOTH THE INSTRUMENTAL PART AS WELL AS THE VOCAL PART
WERE OF A HIGH LEVEL "

At the concert I visited yesterday I asked the same question
to some other visitors , most of them agreed with me .
Not all of them .
Singer or musician , it is not a matter of level but I still
see a difference .

There is "instrumental" music and most people know what I
mean with this .

Gee thanks, Nigel. I've been called a lot of things in my life (I mean a LOT) but never "stupid". Now I guess I can add that to the list. But let me clarify my answer (which Gary appeared to agree with, btw - unless he was just being sarcastic).

Most people in the music business will usually identify themselves as either a singer or a musician. I think that defines what their primary role is in producing a piece of music, NOT necessarily what they may be CAPABLE of doing. To be sure there are musicians that can sing and singers that can play and a precious few that are identified as both (Alicia Keys, Diana Krall, Esparanza Spaulding, etc.). So, when I see a singer who plays no instrument and whose primary function is to sing, in my mind, that's a singer. When I see a musician whose primary job is play an instrument, in my mind, that's a musician. As I stated above, some can do both, which is why I said "some are, some aren't". And how is saying "who cares anyway" taking a 'shot' at singers? What I meant was, what does it matter how you LABEL someone, it doesn't change who they are. If THAT is insensitive, think how it feels to be called "STUPID" and "lacking in intelligence". Really made my day.

chas