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#374588 - 11/09/13 11:06 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Given today's iffy market? That certainly hasn't seemed to affect Yamaha and Korg...they are quite happy developing and regularly churning out great selling TOTL models, and Korg is allegedly a smaller company than Roland.

And please, no comparison to the Tyros FSX Diki...the BK-9 has no aftertouch, a very serious omission considering Roland calls it "the new flagship instrument in the acclaimed BK series"

Seems to be short of at least one major flag.

Nice try, anyway.

And I really do find it strange, that with all the posted alleged need for a very lightweight, cheap, 76-note arranger, the amount of BK-9 interest was rather lame (despite your promotional efforts)...and yet, the introduction of an instrument with a much higher price and more weight sets off the forum like crazy.

As I said, strange eh?

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374616 - 11/09/13 01:56 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
It's the flagship, for sure. But pricewise and featurewise, it is still a MOTL arranger. If you have no TOTL, the MOTL becomes the flagship... BTW, notice that I mentioned the lack of aftertouch (speed reading again?)?

Not strange at all, Ian, BTW about the Yamaha feeding frenzy. Yamaha users always seem to lose their minds when anything new comes out, the rest aren't so desperate to change... LOL

Compare apples to apples, the BK-9 is a very competitive product at its price point. If you want to elevate it to be the T5's competition, well, you MIGHT consider that nearly $3000 less entitles it to missing a few features!

And if you are SO swayed by advertising hyperbole that merely CALLING it a 'flagship' makes it worth comparing to an arranger $3000 more, you might need to consider your susceptibility to ad copy! Or, I have some property joining Brooklyn and Manhattan you might be interested in!

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#374621 - 11/09/13 02:36 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Diki]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: Diki


And if you are SO swayed by advertising hyperbole that merely CALLING it a 'flagship' makes it worth comparing to an arranger $3000 more, you might need to consider your susceptibility to ad copy! Or, I have some property joining Brooklyn and Manhattan you might be interested in!


Never swayed by ad copy, but always entertained.

Besides, I'm only quoting Roland's hype...they seem to believe it is a flagship. I certainly do not.

It's not that the Roland bunch are, or are not, desperate for change...they actually don't really have much of a choice...it's MOTL or nuttin'!

Plus, I really was surprised by the lack of interest in the BK-9...I honestly thought there would be more posts about it, and, certainly, more SZ member reviews.

But, you seem happy with it, so, I guess it's not a total failure....AND, you can now say you have a paid up membership in the "lighter is better bunch".

If I buy anything, it will be a fully programmable synthesizer with an 88 note weighted hammer action keyboard. The Casio PX5S is a prime candidate...the price is very good and it is very lightweight (you finally understand how important that is), especially for an 88.

Of course, purchasing will depend on my needs next year, so, lots of time.

Meanwhile, it's fun watching from the bleachers this time around.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374624 - 11/09/13 02:56 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9222
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
It is not the keybed that adds to the weight on the G70..It is the metal chasis...

As an example when I updated the MediaStation with the lower metal chasis...empty it weighed about 20 pounds..the same in plastic would be about 3 pounds..tops smile

I would rather have a heavier metal built keyboard that I know will hold up..rather than the cheap plastic construction..

Roland did use Aluminum construction in the D70 days, and it was lighter than the G70 by 15 pounds...

I would think aluminum would be durable and well constructed..

BTW: My favorite all time keybeds are the beds I own..The MediaStation and the G70, are still the best semi weighted keybeds.. wink
I am spoiled, and can never be happy with the PSR, Juno and PA beds..The PA900 is an okay keybed as are the Tyros and PAx..but not as playable as the MS and G70...in my opinion grin
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www.francarango.com



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#374627 - 11/09/13 03:17 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
I have pulled a few G70 actions in my time (fixing other people's spills, mostly, or broken keys) and I can assure you that the G70 action ALONE is quite up there in weight. Each key has a metal weight, is built of quite stout plastic, and has a fairly substantial frame supporting the whole thing. In fact, it is so heavy, it really NEEDS the metal casing just to stop it from flexing slightly. Its keys are also longer than most synth type keybeds, so would need a deeper case to leave room for the electronics boards.

The thing is, have a PSR S950, a BK-9 and a G70 next to each other (which I have done) and then start pressing keys slowly, and you realize that the 'weight' feels very similar. However, the inertia is different when you hit the note quickly, and the rebound feel, stop feel and side to side wobble is noticeably better on the Roland actions, and the PSR is simply 'spongy'.

Please, by the way, don't get confused about this being a 'Yamaha vs. Roland' issue. Yamaha make EXCELLENT actions for their MOTL priced WS's, even better ones for their TOTL arrangers and WS's. Nobody is putting Yamaha down. Only the MOTL PSR's, which God only knows why Yamaha feel this doesn't deserve as good a keybed on it as a LESSER priced Yamaha WS.

No-one, to my mind, has yet come up with a good reason for Yamaha to do this...

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#374634 - 11/09/13 04:20 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
As I said, Fran...it's too bad Roland didn't put the G-70's action in the Bk-9...plus add the touchscreen.

They'd be a whole lot closer to making another decent TOTL arranger, and definitely be in league with Tyros5-76 and PA3Xpro76, and with a lot more manageable weight...probably be only 30-35 lbs tops.

You'd then have a very competitive keyboard action, along with the touchscreen you guys love so much...a winner all around!

The BK-9 is a nice little board, but hardly a real successor to the great G-70, and as Diki says, it's only a MOTL not TOTL as the Roland hype implies.

I also believe the OP's question has been answered quite well, according to him...he's already pre-ordered a Tyros5-76.

Let's just be happy for Hal.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374635 - 11/09/13 04:25 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14543
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Diki,

The difference is in the triggering device - it's a totally different mechanism. While I've never had a G70 apart, I did get a glimpse inside the G800, and I suspect that they use the same or similar type of triggering device. Big difference between the two machines in that respect. And, I'm really not sure which is more effective, electronically. While key velocity triggers the volume played, there are other factors such as after touch, and SA voice effect triggers that apply to Yamaha's key system. It's a fairly complex system, and I for one, don't have the answers for why any manufacturer uses the systems they use.

Cheers,

Gary cool
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

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#374638 - 11/09/13 04:53 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: travlin'easy]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: travlin'easy

While key velocity triggers the volume played, there are other factors such as after touch, and SA voice effect triggers that apply to Yamaha's key system. It's a fairly complex system, and I for one, don't have the answers for why any manufacturer uses the systems they use.

Cheers,

Gary cool


Not only that Gary, but you, Joe and Donny seem to be very comfortable with the PSR action, and I suspect if it was as bad as being implied, I doubt very much if you pros would put up with it.

Considering that the PSR has 61 keys, I doubt very much if it's biggest and most persistant critics would even purchase one.

I must say, I found the PSR keys very pleasant to play, and was seriously considering an S910 (or maybe S950) before I got a break and was able to afford the Tyros4.

The PSR has a fine velocity response, and yes, the throw is shallower than some others, but the clincher for me was that you could turn the volume up to 3/4, pick a piano sound, press a key slowly enough, and actually get no sound...the same as an acoustic piano key.

Plus, as you have learned with your 3K's...it's pretty darn reliable as well.

Also, you, Joe and Donny all have different playing styles, yet it works well for all three of you.

Not bad, eh? wink

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374639 - 11/09/13 05:03 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14543
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
I never had a problem with any keyboard's keys, but I can't handle fully or semi weighted keys at all, mainly because after a couple hours my fingers and hands begin aching and cramping. The following day I have to soak my hands in hot water to work out the aches and pains.

Joe plays a Yamaha Baby Grand all the time, and he loves those S-950 keys. I've heard Joe playing the piano and he is absolutely great.

Everyone has their preferences, and that's the way it should be. Some like chocolate, some like vanilla. Some like both!;)

Cheers,

Gary cool


Edited by travlin'easy (11/09/13 05:04 PM)
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

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#374643 - 11/09/13 06:23 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
It's easy to stay devoted to a particular action when one hasn't got any option at all. Also, it's telling that those most 'devoted' to the PSR action admit they come to it from either an accordion background, or simply admit they can't play their way out of a paper bag!

If you look back, and try to count the number of different reviews of the PSR action here, you find that there are many, many people who have rated it very poor.

Gary, there is absolutely NOTHING in the action that has got anything whatsoever to do with triggering SA type voices. You can trigger them via MIDI from any external keyboard with no change whatsoever in how they work (with the obvious and unrelated exception of the SA trigger buttons, which are NOT the action itself). A keyboard sends but a few bits of information... How hard was the key hit, which key was it, when did you let it off, and what (if any) after touch did you apply during the note on.

ALL keyboards send the exact same information. Don't read anything more into Ian's misquoted ad copy.

And Ian... If Roland had put the G70's action in some TOTL $3500+ arranger, it would already be BETTER than the T5, not equivalent..! And, according to you, it doesn't NEED a touch screen. But if it did, again it would be BETTER.

About the only thing 'sad' about Roland not having a high end expensive Roland arranger at the moment is that poor Ian has to make his taunts about an arranger that costs at least $2500 less than what he currently uses, and can't bring himself to talk about comparing it to the only Yamaha arranger in its actual price range.

As you can see, it's driving him crazy!

And, as of yet, still not ONE explanation as to why Yamaha think their MOTL WS's need a decent action, but the arranger division doesn't. Crickets chirping on that one...

Better keep the focus on the BK-9, eh? LOL

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