I have had a look through the manual, (Very seldom touch these features when I am trying a board out) and it saves some settings that others don’t, but it also lacks some settings that others have. (Swings & Roundabouts)

So the question is:

What makes the Korg Song Book So Good Compared to others?

Bill

What doesn't it do, in your view, that others do? As you say you have not used it so maybe it does do the task, you just don't know how....

Saves style, mp3, smf, kar, transpose, all in one custom list for instant access.

I found the 800 songbook to be terrific for live play. It allowed for lightening quick transition between songs and stringing medlies. Nothing quite like it.

As far as I can see it doesn’t seem to save mappings, thus you cannot assign Voices/Acc to certain buttons and call them up with a pre-set.

It also seems you cannot assign multiple voices/Acc to an individual pre-set.

On the other hand manuals are notorious for confusing everybody.

Bill

So does a registration pre-set.

Bill

Why not just group your pre-sets together the way you want, or just setup a playlist.

Bill

You sure can Bill, if I am getting your meaning correctly. I assume acc means accomp?

Essentially every parameter you set, even down to the chord recognition system and per part eq settings (made under the menu tab), is saved when you save a songbook entry, and then on top of that it can also save a LOT of info just in the STS section, whihc also then gets saved as well to to songbook entry...

Set up a song to play, set up all your tracks, all your parts eq settings volume settings all (onboard) mixer settings, resource used (as in style/mp3/midi) Helicon settings and eq etc etc etc etc....and then simply select it in the songbook, via midi or via a number pad and it is instantly loaded as saved.

You do need to have most of the "locks" that are, by default set to on in the Global section, set to off for this to occur so that the Global lock is not overriding changes and it really is a piece of cake!!!!

As I wrote in another forum I have used the single/block registration system on Ketrons, the Registration system on Yamaha, and the Roland equivalent..

Nothing and I mean NOTHING comes even close to the Korg Songbook..

Dennis

AMEN I agree totally !!

Well from the descriptions above and what I got from the manual, the Songbook is nothing more than pre-set registrations that have their storage map based around a song title template.

OK they might have the odd one or two extra features that some others don’t, but it’s certainly nothing to write home about. (Bit disappointing really considering how people rave about it)

Oh well!

Bill

oh well there are none so blind etc ......no surprises here.

Ditto.

1. How many Acc and sounds per layer (Upper 1, Upper 2 etc.) can you have in each Registration (Songbook) Pre-set?

2. In addition to the above, can you also at the same time store the mappings of all the Acc/Sound Buttons and levels to your own design, so that you don’t have go through menus to get to them , and if so how many can you access with just one hardware button press.

3. Can the Mixer settings etc. be stored separately so that they can be used in other songs, or do you have to set them up for every songbook entry?

4. Can you assign a registration pre-set to each style variation to give even more flexibility?

5. What is the maximum number of Registration (Songbook) pre-sets can it be expanded to as part of its internal memory.

These questions (Which I asked in my first post) have not been answered, or are indicated in the manual, all you have mentioned so far is basic stuff which has been available on keyboards for donkey’s years.

Sorry to be a bit blunt, but until someone proves the Korg Songbook is something special (Not just having a few odd things that some other manufactures don’t have) then I just cannot see what all the fuss is about.

Bill

I think that, until you are gigging live, many of the Korg Songbook's features seem somewhat marginal. You gigging these days, Bill?

Organization by SONG on the stage is what makes it so easy to use. Registrations usually have a different display structure, and generally a larger filesize requirement. The Korg Songbook is without doubt the best laid out and organized songbook feature on any arranger today...

If you use one.

Well if you actually read the post I made the answers are all there...as they are in the manual...perhaps you would be best to leave it to those folks who actually KNOW and have extensively used the keyboard, instead of trying to make profound comments based on zip experience with the Korg system, and it would seem only having "skimmed" the manuals - yes there is more than the quick start guide you know...

I decided not to waste any more energy on the answer than I did, as it was only really for someone who is just being obtuse...

I could go FAR more in depth - but I will not.

Oh, sorry to be blunt

I used primarily software with keyboard controllers from the late 80s to the early 00s, and only came back to all in one units when I could use my software in them, if you have just been used to hardware then I suppose the Songbook would seem advanced, and from that perspective I can understand, it’s just that for me (Personally) it’s just basic and nothing special.

Each to their own, I suppose

As to gigging, no I don’t, but I have never seen the songbook give any gigging artist an advantage over any other manufactures keyboard.

Bill

Depends on how much eye contact and flow you are willing to lose with your audience while you try to go from where you are to a song that just popped into your head.

I'm afraid that playing at home simply does not expose you to the pressures that a LIVE player has.

As I have mentioned before I just briefly try these features out when I try a keyboard live, as I am more interested in how easy I can make it sound to my liking rather than to the manufactures liking.

Looking more in depth at various other manufactures manuals (Regarding Songbook functions) I can see that the more extensive range of features you can save on a Korg compared to others would probably be beneficial live, however I can save pretty much the same as songbook and more (Selection of what you want to save is slightly different) in a Total Pre-set, then I just name the pre-set the name of the song and save it into the appropriate group (Or create one if it doesn’t exist) thus it becomes easy to find. (In most cases I know the number of the pre-set so just switch to the on-screen number pad and select it like that. (Although how professionals remember 8000 or so pre-sets (The typical settings most pro’s use) is a bit beyond me.

On the other hand using the playlist function you can also set up specific groups of pre-sets (Songs) for different types of jobs, so if it pops into your head it’s probably already in the play list for that job.

In the final analysis it’s all down to personal choice and what you feel happy with. (I’ve had my Abacus for almost 10 years now, and there’s nothing come out that gives me even the slightest incentive to change)

Bill

Very true. You sinply don't have the luxury of taking the time to sort it all out when the unexpected happens (and it will). That's why I feel much more comfortable staying away from any form of pre-arranged, pre-programmed, or pre-packaged performance. It only works well if everyone and everything stays on script. Solo or small group setting for me. I like the flexibility and comfort of not caring if a 'guest' singer wants to do a traditionally slow song fast or vise versa. Plus, it's a lot less to remember if you only play one instrument (and are old ). Just me, though.

chas

I have a question..what does the Korg songbook save that the Roland G70 does not....Stephen and Dennis..you guys owned both..what do you say....or maybe you guys did not try the Roland thoroughly...Comparing info I do not find a difference..even tone edits can be recalled on the Roland without saving as a new tone...I don't think the Korg can untill it is saved as a new tone..Just asking....The G70 system is complete as I have seen..

Both can save sequences.....naturally the Korg has MP3 option...

The Roland also saves all edits for effects and mastering tools...not sure how Korg does this....

Korg has pads it can save...Roland has the D-beam..

All controllers and edits are saved on Roland...probably the same with Korg..

Output assignments ...saved on Roland..Korg?

All harmonizer settings are saved including edits on the Roland...most likely on the Korg too...

One edge in the harmonizer G70 is a "smart" read ..not needing to assign a track to read chords within a SMF..as on the Korg....but it will still save this in a user program...Does the Songbook save this?

Chas, I think you are ignoring several more recent features that makes using automatic rhythm section stuff FAR more flexible and capable of going off the page. Obviously, for starters, there's using arranger mode, so chord substitutions, key, and structure can be totally changed on the fly.

Then there's the dynamic duo... Using Markers in SMF's so that a static song structure can be completely twisted around on the fly depending on needs, extended, shortened, extra vamp sections optionally inserted, and the Chord Sequencer, which allows for capture of a basic 'head' chord structure, and then allows hands free repetition of it while you jam two fisted to your heart's content, all the time still being able to fill and change variation and key, etc. on the fly (hands free again with a footpedal)...

Add to that, at least with Roland's, the ability to totally revoice a style from hard and rocking to soft and jazzy on the fly, with a mere button press or two. Same style, several orchestrations...

The only thing holding you back may be unfamiliarity with these tools, or unwillingness to try them. Sure, if you have an on call rhythm section at your beck and call, willing to play for peanuts (or free!) 24/7, you are good to go. But when this dream doesn't pan out, don't dismiss the machines so lightly. If you WANT to have a lot of on the fly control, the gear CAN do it. You just have to use the tools...

Diki, I respect your opinion (as being valid for YOU), but I also think that mine is equally valid for me. I'm not insisting that everyone agree with MY point of view but since it is all subjective and a matter of personal philosophy, I'll just stick to the opinion that works for me.

I have nothing against arrangers (since I own four), and I believe they have many legitimate uses in the world of music. But for me, playing 'live' (in their INTENDED USE mode) is not one of them. We all acknowledge that they are just the latest iteration of the 'home organ' and other early auto-accompaniment 'instruments' designed SOLEY for home entertainment, and that (in THIS country, at least) that STILL accounts for the majority of their sales. I know, and have known, literally hundreds of professional musicians, and I can truly say that, except for the ones on THIS board, I don't know a single one that owns or has EVER owned, an arranger keyboard. I can also state, in all honesty, that I have never seen one used in a club, church, or concert setting. This is not to say that they aren't or can't be used in these settings, but it must mean SOMETHING that it is so rare. But here is the most important part; you, or no one else, will ever convince me that arranger music is equal to the joy, for both player and audience, of playing 'live' music with live musicians, on traditional instruments. As far as I'm concerned, you can program or pre-program anything you want (on synth, WS, OR even Arranger) EXCEPT the NOTES PLAYED. For me, that is the crux of a musical performance; everything else is just 'sound enhancement'. This is not an 'elitist' or 'purist' (or any of the other bullshit labels people try try to lay on you when they are trying to delegitimize your opinions) attitude. It may be an ARCHAIC attitude from an old school, 'ol dude who still likes solo jazz piano, live theatre, and fresh deli sandwiches, and just hasn't caught up or kept up with the 'future of music'. What can I say, to each his own.

chas

Hijack?....

As someone who has broken every rule in the book (and then some), your constant harping about hijacking is getting a little tiresome. How about waiting until you officially become moderator, or hell freezes over, whichever comes first. Have a great day.

chas

+1

... NOW, NOW, children ...

It is a hijack!
Common, I wanted to know why is Korg Songbook so advanced...

Korg Songbook Definition:

A Registration Pre-set library system that can store all settings on the instrument for instant recall

Observations:

Nothing new or special compared to what’s gone before, but more comprehensive than most other manufactures.

From the posts and manuals this is how I interpret it.

Bill

Ok, Whew!! ....now it's settled ... the KORG SONGBOOK is the Best Pro Performers navigational tool feature ever devised on an arranger KB...
I feel so much better now that I know I have this in my arsenal....It's a beautiful thing, ....
especially during this super busy holiday gig schedule that's upon us.

You know Donny, my old buddy, you are very fortunate to be able to go from a planned PA-600 to a TOTL PA-3X arranger despite the horrific financial issues that hurricane Sandy caused you and your daughter's family not long ago.

Thankfully some very kind and generous people came to your rescue, otherwise you'd be playing Christmas tunes on the old blue and butt ugly PA-500.

It's nice to know there are such sincere and supporting people out there.

Bravo to them all.

They have my total respect.

Ian

Ian ....thank you for your unknowing concerns as usual......
but this is one time I will have no comment here on this forum.
sorry I wont take the bait.

No bait, my friend...just an astute observation.

It is just heart warming to see the kindness and concern of fellow SZ'ers.

Ian

Now this, I agree with

I would only add ease of use and the ability to select any entry (1-9,999) via a simple MIDI CC string, that can be embedded into any midi file, or even attached to a PDF chart using Unrealbook on iPad so that the Songbook setup gets loaded the instant the chart is selected!

I did do a Youtube vid demonstrating this some time back....

These are things NOT found anywhere else with the ease of use of the Korg System. ROland do have a similar way but it is restricted to the 128 listings in a, is it a UPS???

I cannot remember the actual acronym, but yeah, all you can immediately access is 128 settings, then you have to load another set of 128 if you want to find another song...no problem if all you do is preset fixed playlists.

The advantage of the Korg system is you can dynamically change anything at any time to suit whatever is happening as you have immediate access to anyone of the 9,999 songbook listings...

For example on my system using Unrealbook (in which you can annotate charts) I simply mark the Korg Songbook number on the chart page, so that if I select the chart I can then press the Songbook button twice which brings up a number pad and I enter the number. The setup is then selected and loads in under a second!!!

This is the backup should I not have a preset midi attached to the chart, or if I forget the midi out kit for the iPad...

So yes Bill I agree with your summation, but I think it goes a bit deeper than JUST more comprehensive

Dennis

As to not seeing arrangers around in "real" bands:

You'll see arrangers in use in many professional settings such as Cruise ships, dance bands and high energy singles who entertain in settings where a larger band just wont fit, or would be too loud. If a B3 player can be called "legit" because he's using bass pedals, then a good, solid arranger can be used to fill in whats missing in any other situation. It's all about changing with the times. I am still playing my butt off with both hand, both feet and my voice ... the arranger does it's thing, and I do mine ... same as when I was in bands.

Touring acts use tracks, sequences, automation, and anything else to make the show. Please don't suggest that the business is just for manual labor. Automation makes it possible for us to communicate on this site - embrace the technology.

Dennis, yes the G70 has 144 locations for user program selections, but beyond that is unlimited (depending on size of external memory) storage of user programs on the external memory card...this is easily searched and selected in the same manner as styles and smf,s...

Well, the Oracle of Synthzone has spoken. Let's see now, I respond to a statement made by Diki directed (not maliciously) to me, and that's a 'Hijack'. YOU, on the other hand, respond to a post (not directed at you) in a similar manner, but equally not on topic, and it's NOT a Hijack. How does that work? Does it just depend on WHO the poster is? Also, if you bothered to actually READ my post (in it's entirety), what I said was that I, ME, CHAS, had never seen an arranger used in certain professional venues or known any professional musicians that owned or used one professionally. And finally, please stop trying to tell other people what their opinion should be or what they should embrace. I tend to listen to people who have demonstrated their wisdom by their career successes. The major Touring acts you alluded to are able to 'embrace the technology' because they FIRST made it the old fashioned way, with above-average TALENT. Hey, have a good day and knock 'em dead at the Crab Shack.

chas

Yes Fran but you STILL have to load up the UPS set of 128 if you want a song that might be in set 4, or 13, or 25 whatever!!!

And it is ONLY these entries (after loading the entire set) that can be selected via MIDI...and then only one of 128 can be selected via midi not 144!! The CC numbering only goes to 128

Even though 144 can be loaded onto the G70, only 128 are availabel for MIDI selection.

And then you need to re-load the original set you were using for the pre-programmed songlist (playlist) after you made that audience request selection.

Even if you COULD load 144, I mean 144 as against 9,999??? And ALL instantly available? You really cannot be serious is asserting the Roland system is the equal, surely

Stop trying to defend your keyboard!!! I never attacked it in the first place I only stated I think the Korg Songbook is the best I have used.

At least I HAVE used the Roland system. I am not sure you have used for yourself the Korg SB in a any serious way.

Dennis, I was looking for opinion why the Korg Songbook is superior...sorry I still don't see it..I am not defending the G70...it is every thing I need ...

Why is midi selection important with a top of the line arranger?
Why is it important to need more than 144 locations?
Via the keyboard as the controller..the user program selection from storage card is easy to use....
I probably use 3 or 4 user programs, for specialtie performances....My default user is really all I need to use...preferring to make my selections live during performance..since this is easy to do with Roland OS..

So in review, I am neither knocking the Korg or defending the Roland.....I am just trying to understand your views...

Okay fair enough Fran, TBH I thought it was clear enough, but to explain a bit more simply:

I am not talking about selecting MIDIS per se, I am talking about a special midi file created to load a Songbook Entry - be it a style, an MP3 or a song based midi file - these are a one bar "oneshot" midi that uses NRPN CC's plus the Data Entry CC, which when transmitted over a nominated "control" channle on the PA series, then automatically loads the Songbook entry with all resources - Microphone EQ and Harmoniser settings as well.

Look why don't you check this You Tube clip - which I think explains it even better ....

Having a data base of 9,999 songs to choose from makes doing requests a snap!
It also means that ....let's say I have prepared a playlist at home for the 3rd set of the night - I have my 20-25 songs all ready to go - BUT then I am playing at the gig and I find what I had prepared is not working, with the instant nature of the KSB and the fact there are son many entries instantly available I can simply change to dynamically (you do understand what I mean by dynamically? Not being rude, just asking....) selecting songs, then if I find the audience is getting more responsive, I can slip straight back to the prepared playlist...

You know as well as I do it is harder to get folks ON the dance floor than to keep them there

I know the Roland is easy to use but the number restriction (128) was always an issue...Why Roland could not have extended the function past a basic single bank MIDI set is beyond me!!! And I will also say that had Roland HAD the access to more entries (without the need to keep loading a whole UPS to get one or two songs) I daresay I would not have gone back over to Korg with the PA2xPro..

Does that help?

Dennis

tony always the voice of reason





Fran the g70 was 5 years ago, I have very little recollection of it......I have to admit I did not try the Roland thoroughly to give an honest opinion.

Hey Chas - why so angry, man? I didn't attack you. I offered up info that you might not have, that's all. I've never seen a million bucks, but I know it's possible to attain. (well, not for ME)Don't be so quick to defend the big stars either - talent has never been the driving force behind show biz success. In today's world of music - the success is based on a very tiny demographic of teens who do most of the buying, and the standard changes every 6 months. Look at William Hung, and how does Andy Richter even HAVE a job on TV? It's called Show Business, not Show ART (Miss Piggy), and I've made a comfortable living in the biz. I'll never be rich, but I'm blessed to love each day I go to work. I loved it in my pre-auto days and I love it now. Technology keeps us fresh, and I love every new toy I buy.

The fact that I offer advise from the trenches doesn't make me an "oracle" ... just a well seasoned gear-head who has tried almost every brand and model of keyboard that has been on the shelves. Inquiring minds want to know ... so I share.

Thanx for the good wishes at the Crab Trap - it's one of the best music jobs I've ever had. Great clientele, awesome management and terrific food. I make good music - they pay good money. Win/Win!

Merry Christmas, or whatever makes you merry.
UD

Oh boy, here we go with the 'angry' thing again. Give it a rest, pleeeeeese. Everybody that doesn't cotton up to your condescending, patronizing, bull.. uh, manner, isn't necessarily angry, maybe they just don't need or want a self-appointed 'uncle'. BTW, the last time I heard the "why so angry" line was from your buddy Donny. You guys use the same writer? If so, maybe it's time to try some new material. In fact, instead of you trying to be my therapist, why don't we talk about say, the PA3x. I was thinking about upgrading my PA1x but just can't see the point of it. It still sounds pretty good to me and probably provides as many arrangement ideas as any other arranger. For the type of music that I like, the Korg styles are the only ones that do anything for me. My band mates like it but only for about 10 or 15 minutes, then it's like, back to business. Could be because I'm not a very good arranger player. My next keyboard may be the new Nord Electro 4d. Anyhow, with advancing arthritis in my right wrist and diminishing stamina, I may soon hang it up anyway, at least the playing out part. Gotta' give it up sometime. Have a nice day.

chas

OK Chaz, we'll talk 3x.
(hope I don't sound too condescending or patronizing)
I still think it's the best looking, best built keyboard I ever had, and it sounds FANTASTIC. I was last this impressed by my Yamaha 900Pro (no psr prefix, I think that was the one)- metal body, XLR mic input - solid piece, and great sounding for it's day. For THIS day - the 3x has the look, sounds, the patterns, the playback and the FEEL of a true champion. If my "gig" with Justin Bieber (we share the same birth date) ever comes through, I'm takin' the 3x out on the road with me. It'll sit on top of my Rhodes suitcase and that's all I'll need - unless I can find another D-6 to get funky with. (Maybe I'd add a dedicated organ if the roadies wouldn't mind carrying it)I can't imagine a scenario that I would feel lacking if I had the 3x on the job. The only reason it's not going out with me on my one night stands is the lack of on board speakers. I had the Pa-as and it was awesome, but bulky. I need light and fit ...
So, I'm glad you're not angry, and I'm sorry that you don't need an experienced uncle's input, but I think we can agree on the 3x as a top contender in anyone's rig for living room or stadium.
BTW, the "uncle" was a term of endearment when I started student teaching years ago. I was too young to be "Mr" anything, and the nuns (Catholic School) wouldn't let the elementary school students call me by my first name, so we settled on Uncle Dave ... it just stuck.
The sounds on the 3x are more defined than the 1x, and the samples are improved with the DNC effects too. I really think you'd like the upgrade.