There’s been a lot of discussion here lately about Korg arrangers so I thought this would be a good time to post this.

I’ve been listening to these demo’s here for a few weeks now. I think they’re incredible for both sound and versatility. Fact is, I think they give the Ketron demo’s a good run for their money.
http://www.korgpa.com/pa_root/en/support/demo.html?en

I’ve been considering buying a Ketron SD5 for quite a while. What’s been holding me up is the inability to find one I can take a good workout on (though Frankie has a nice setup at his place). Mostly, my reservations come from the lack of proper technical and backup support for the unit (outside of AJ).

In the meantime, I discovered these Korg demo’s and have been reading whatever I could about the Korg PA2X Pro. I like the extended keyboard, reasonable weight, the authentic styles, and the realistic drum and instrument sounds. I also like the fact that Korg seems to be committed to company growth and particularly to their arranger keyboards, and that I can pick up the telephone and almost immediately get through to the Korg techies to get my questions answered.

So...what do some of you who are familiar with the Korg arrangers say about these units? Also, compared to the Ketrons? Also...is there anything I should consider about the PA2X Pro that I might not like? I'm seriously thinking about buying one.

Lucky

The two places where the Ketron shines is in its Audio Drums and Audio Guitars. Unfortunately Korg does not compete with Ketron in these areas, though it has a lot of other advantages in other areas. (I say this as a Pa2x owner who also played on the Audya.) The Korg drums are altogether pretty good. Not so for their guitars.

Hi Lucky,
first up, I'm only a hobbyist.
I own the Korg PA800 (18months) and a Ketron SD1+ (3 years).
Biggest downside for me as far as the Ketron goes, is lack of style editing functions. IF the onboard styles don't suit, it's not all that easy to create one's own.
For me, that's where the Korg shines. Great style editing & creation functions.

Also, Korg has a pretty good user forum,
someone normally pipes up to try & help.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lucky2Bhere:
[B]

Lucky,

Korg has been my choice arranger for the last 18 months. First with the PA800 because the Pa2xPro wasn't available, then 4 months later I upgraded to the Pa2xPro. If you're like many of us here, that perfect arranger hasn't been built yet. Since it hasn't I've settled in with the Korg and also an s900. They serve me well.

For me the downside of the Korg is not enough on board Jazz/Big Band styles. If you play a lot of big band/jazz styles you may find the Korg not the best choice. But I've found work arounds for my needs, I'm sure you can too. There are some third party styles available. Rikki helped by sending me some of her big band jazz styles and they filled in a gap.

Overall the positives of this board far outweigh the negatives. I know you've been shopping for a while I say go for it. BTW, in the last 3 years I've owned the PSR3k, Tyros2, G70. The Korg for my needs has an edge, though very slight over those other models. I did miss Yamaha enough where I did purchase an S900 and do use it here and there for gigs based on what and where I'm playing. Good luck.

I would say these demos are clouding your judgment as do all factory demos do.......
I would also suggest you go find these arrangers your interested in no matter where they are and play them so you get a real hands on experience to see if it is really for your needs before you lay out a substantial amount of money & not be satisfied.Do not listen to anyone here ....go try it yourself.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-23-2009).]

I hasd the Korg PA2x for 4 mos and ended up with a Tyros 3.

Korg was a better Workstation insofar as MIDI goes, Korg had a better Harmonizer, Korg had a more "raw" overall sound. Korg had 76 keys,
Korg is a great board for LIVE play and MIDI/DAW use.I was hoping to have an all in one Workstation/Arranger.But the available style library was pale in comparison to the Yamaha's

Since I don't use the board for live work (where it truly shines) and in the end I preferred the vast style library the Yamaha offered which is why I bought an Arranger in the first place. Styles. Not being a guitarist I felt the Yamaha had far better guitar voices and acoustic instrumentation overall at the expense of drums and synthy stuff. So I bought a Tyros and recently the XS8 to fill the Workstation keybed hole the the Korg left.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 03-23-2009).]

is it me or are those Korg Drums the THINNEST sounding, most electronic drums i've ever heard on any arranger ???

I think it's you, lee...

What about the S900 drums, or Wersi internals? I just thought they were pushed back in the mix quite a bit. You know, just like arranger players tend to do

I've heard a ton of stuff from users where they weren't so buried, and they pop quite nicely. Not the same as Roland, but still effective. A bit softer in the hi-hats and cymbals, maybe a hair better on a few of the snares and brush stuff. They definitely seem to have nailed the 'smooth jazz' kind of kit sound

But you know what strikes me from listening to the style demos? I don't really think it is an arranger issue. I simply think that Korg have some of the most creative, 'hip' style programmers out there. Put these same guys on a T3 or a G70, I am sure they could make something just as effective. I have a few PA1X styles in my G70, and they are some of my favorites for jazz and smooth jazz.

I don't think there is much getting around it. Just like us and our playing demos, there is NO substitute for great playing and creative music making.

Diki,

would you say the KORG drums come close to AUDYA's- or Ketrons in general ??

The buck stops here! Buy the PA2X - it sounds better live than the online demos.

Like Stephen said, use your imagination to draw from the onboard styles. The fills, endings, variations, etc are EXTREMELY MUSICAL and INSPIRING. There has been discussion regarding fill problems (and no board is devoid of this) but I have not found this to be a problem - it's a small work-a-round and only a few at most. The harmonizer is to die for, as is the Songbook. Editing is easy and effective. I totally disagree with Chony about the drums and guitars (fantastic) - what???????? - is one of its strong points, as is the bass. There might be limited style resources, but the available ones are incredible.

There is no way I will comment about the Ketron. Everyone has their tastes and you just have to decide for yourself.

I absolutely LOVE the PA800 - to me, it is the best arranger ever made and I will defend that statement to the bitter end. In fact, I just closed the deal on my 2nd one after recklessly roaming for a bit.

Good luck on your decision.

[This message has been edited by zuki (edited 03-23-2009).]

Lucky,
Go play a PA2XPRO for a few HOURS...preferably with Frank V. at Audiowerks as it sounds like your close to him?

After that I think you will want to buy one. IMHO.

Oh, I think the guitars are great..but I'm not ito distortion guitars...so I can't coment on those specifically.

Also, on the KorgPA web site there is a Korg PA80 video tutorial which is real nice.

Lee S.

Thanks guys (and Rikki) for the input here so far. I’m glad I decided to ask for help as I get zilch input from the salesmen in the music stores. But, at least I can FIND a local Korg a lot easier than I can a local Ketron SD5.

How I got turned on to the Korg sound is as follows: About a month ago I found a video cassette that Korg had sent me of this fellow Stephen Kay playing an i3 at a concert in Japan. He was doing it solo (also singing). He was so good that I could close my eyes and think he was working with a band. That impressed me considering the technology was 15 years old.
http://www.karma-lab.com/mg/ag-pd.html (the song is Glory Road, but it sounds much better on my tape as he sings and backs himself up)

Anyhow, I’m going to Sam Ash tomorrow to spend a few hours on the PA800. Unfortunately, the salesmen have already advised me they’re not conversant with it, so I’m hoping I can figure it out myself.

“Great style editing & creation functions”…yes that’s also important to me. My understanding is the Ketron is limited in that department.

Forums:
Korg user forum” scale 1-10= 10 another reason I’m partial towards Korg
Ketron user forum scale 1-10= 0

The Korg demo’s….yes, they sound a little TOO good. I’m wondering how many of them are actually MIDI files. Still the sounds are quite authentic sounding. Nice trumpets…..I love trumpets.

“But the available Korg style library was pale in comparison to the Yamaha's” Lucky: But someone said recently in another thread that although Korg doesn’t have that many styles out there, what they DO have kicks butt? What do you guys think?

Lee: I didn’t think the drums sounded thin, but then again I wasn’t really listening to them that closely, and particularly on good speakers. That’s one of the things I’m going to check out tomorrow at Sam Ash. In all fairness, I’m not crazy about the Ketron drums. My understanding is that only the Ketron Latin drum set was “recorded.” I don’t hear a lot of “punch” in them on big band. But I’m still thinking analog, as in my old Yamaha RX7 drum machine which I still have.

Diki hit the nail on the head: “I simply think that Korg have some of the most creative, 'hip' style programmers out there.”

THAT’S what’s making it sound so good. Really good styles and “rock” styles. Also I think they used top notch players to make some of those demos.

Zuki: nice comments…….very encouraging…you should be doing promotions for Korg!

I’m not downplaying the Ketron. At this point, I think they’re both good bang for the buck. But as I said, what Korg has going for it is 3 things: support, support, support….and a good deal of “visibility”…..and a FUTURE!

I’ve ruled out the Tyros, and Roland looks like it’s dropping out so I’d like to hear some more comments about your opinions on either the PA800 or the PA2x PRO if you don’t mind. This is going to be a $4,000 decision I have to make without the luxury of spending a lot of time on it in the store as they‘re not located near me. I don’t think I’m going to go with the Ketron, only because I’d feel like I’d be on an island with it here in the States.

[This message has been edited by Lucky2Bhere (edited 03-23-2009).]

Hi Steve,

I didn't know you played Korgs. I was so obsessed with the Ketron I guess I didn't hear anything else anyone said.

Yes, "big band, etc" is important to me. I do a lot of it. But my guess is that you won't see a lot of big band on any of the keyboards these days as the newer players have trouble recognizing a "waltz" even. So, I figured I'll have to do what you suggested...wing it.....work around it. (and maybe Rikki would grace me with those styles too?)

Steve....this is it for me. If I buy this Korg I'm going to spend a lot of time learning it's features...and revamp my left hand accompaniment to make use of the extra keys by playing left hand melody against the right hand. And if I DON'T go for it, maybe just an S900 or a Roland GW8.

Lucky

For $1500 or so MORE than a PA2Xpro, the Ketron's drums OUGHT to be much better than anything else out there.

And indeed, I think they are... but with a simple caveat. Most of you have heard only the 'Live Drums' demos. Recordings of real drummers playing real grooves (and apparently, putting real pickups in real Variations, which I'm not a fan of ) and fills and Intros and endings. They taped a drummer playing, essentially... It SHOULD sound great!

BUT.... forget ever using the drum playing as a source for your own edits. Forget being able to move a snare drum hit or a kick pattern around slightly to better suit another tune. Forget about being able to change the kit to a more or less aggressive sounding one with a simple PC#. Forget about turning up the toms in the fills (or down!), or tuning them to better suit the key of the song. Forget about using your own Intros and Endings, maybe copied from a MIDI file. And forget about extracting the hi-hat pattern to import to another style to give it a lift...

Oh, and forget about user created or third party styles using drummer loops (unless you are Turkish! ). Not exactly a huge selection available, out there...

You gain a lot with audio lops. But you lose a lot too. For me, at least, editability and flexibility trumps set in stone 'perfection'...

Hi Lucky,
when you check it out tomorrow, try & spot what operating system it is running.
Latest is os2.01, prior wa 1.51.
Anything earlier than that, & you're not hearing it at it's best. You also won't be hearing the new DNC voices if it's not running os2.
Operating system shows up when switching on.
Does take a minute or so till fully loaded, so don't be concerned.
Operating system & resources system
( styles & sounds ) are upgradeable (FREE download). I've done 3 to date in the last 18 months, just keeps getting better.

Korg has STS's, Yammie has OTS. Basically works the same. They both use songbooks, Korg is better. Both have pads. I again I prefer the korg system it has one additional "sync to "function that my psr 1500 doesn't.
There is an EC5 Pedal Board available, great for triggerring fills varitions etc.

Maybe worth downloading manual to get the basics? http://korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=41825&sid=45d9240afd2bd45ff4c2 07ed15d02995


Ketron onboard style editing ,very basic. Sounds ,volumes stuff like that. No way of editing a wrong note. (Makes trying to edit a converted style all but impossible).
Only way of using a pc for style recording is to midi the pc to the keyboard & play the various parts ( variations, fills etc) across in realtime. Cumbersome. Trying to work out the correct midi settings, is not easy. I'm not a total idiot, but I had real problems trying to work out how to sync the two. Eventually got there.
Recording styles onboard is possible, but again hit a wrong note and you've got to rerecord the track.
It has a track copy function ( ie mix n match tracks from 2 or more styles to create a new one)only problem is, if the tracks aren't the same length ie one track is 2 bars the other is 4), it won't copy it.
Yammie & Korg both do.

Basically all the stuff my sd1 can't do as far as style editing/creating, my Korg can, and lots more.

best wishes
Rikki

p.s.
Happy to send you the styles if you decide on a korg.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lucky2Bhere:
[B]

“Great style editing & creation functions”…yes that’s also important to me. My understanding is the Ketron is limited in that department.

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 03-24-2009).]

A few more things since you asked:

1. I believe editing on the 800 is a snap. I love the drop down menus (think I'm on a Triton)
2. The toggle feature on the style buttons is very useful
3. The break button is incredible for live use
4. I like being able to link the harmonizer (2, 3-part with fx) to ots - oh, 2-part Everly Bros, etc - nice!
5. The 800 speakers are the very best on any 61 note keyboard
6. The pads follow in time, regardless on when engaged - forget the little imperfection on pads not ending (only a few and no big deal)
7. I love a touch screen, but that's me
8. Dual sequencer feature is pretty darn cool if ever needed & mp3 is a must
9. I thank Korg for intro/ending #2 - great to throw in your own chords
10. The styles and sounds are 2nd to none (IMO). BTW, I do many big band songs and there are plenty to choose from that work great

All said, some hate, some love - it's all up to your ears - good luck. Why don't you get on a plane and come to one of my shows

I'd better stop now before I get on a roll and offend anyone

Hi Zuki,
great to see you posting again.

I got your " hi " message the other day on Korg forum. I replied, but it's still sitting in the OutBox?? I don't seem to have a great deal of luck replying. My PM messages seem to get lost.

Anyway "Hi" back, haahaa, from one happy PA800 user to another.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zuki:
[B]

I'm back and exhausted. Let me reply to the new postings tomorrow, though I wish I had gotten to read Rikki's comments on the version of the OS.

I spent 4 hours on the PA800 and one hour on the M3. Most of the time was spent learning to navigate the 800 system (the salesman didn't know how to play it), but I have to admit I picked it up relatively easy. It functions no different than a computer...very logically. If you know MS Windows real well, you pretty much know how to get around the 800.

Unfortunately, I spent so much time "learning" how to play it, I was a little too tired to scrutinize it closely. I had just finished a gig at 3 pm. One really needs to spend a whole day going through it bit by bit.

One thing that really got me down was (after reading Lee's remark about the drums) the sound quality. I muted all the tracks and listened to the drums alone. There was no kick in the bass and no punch in the snare. I was impressed that the cymbals played themselves out to the end and didn't cut off as I heard the Ketron do. The Latin instruments sounded good, but then again they only need crispness (cowbells, timbales, etc).

The bass was strong but I didn't have the time to listen closely to see how well it emulated a real bass player.

Back to the overall sound. He ran the board through a big combo amp, but it was not a well-known name and consequently it sounded muffled. I asked for a Mackie 450 and they had a 450 V2 on the floor so we connected that. It sounded much better and still better when I EQ'd it. Yet.....it didn't sound good. To get the bass drum to sound fuller, I had to "color" the rest of the instruments.

The trumpets (remember I'm a trumpet afficionado) sounded excellent. Loved the "wash trumpet" ....did a great version of Clyde McCoy's Sugar Blues with it.

The piano sounded muffled. Some of the guitars sounded real good, some didn't. I thought the Flamenco guitar easily scored a 10.

There WAS a scarcity of "big band" styles, but then I got to a page (I forgot where) and there was another 4-5 bb's to work with. considering I only work with one in my present keyboard, that would have been a gift to me from the music Gods.

Enough of my review.

Thanks Zuki and Rikki for the additional comments. I understand what you guys are talking about more now that I’ve played on it. BTW…I’m wondering why only 3 breaks and not 4?

The PA800 didn't sound good to me. That doesn't mean it's not a good keyboard as the big 3 sell thousands of them around the world. It means, as I heard it, it didn't sound good. Then again, the Ketron didn’t sound good either, but it sounded excellent when Frankie played it and I listened from 10 feet away.

The demo's sounded good, but Donnie warned me about that.

So what's wrong here? What do you folks think? I DO know that all keyboards sound better when you're listening to them as compared to playing them. No different from a pianist. You never hear it as a listener does.

Are my being too critical? But of what use is all these bells and whistles if the basic sound (drums and bass) doesn’t drive me to play better?

I have a 4 piece EV system 300 here that I’m going to have to bring down to the store and try the 800 on it. Maybe that’s all I need….what I’m used to hearing.

The salesman made an interesting statement when I expressed my displeasure with the drums. He said they sounded fine to him. Reason being that the new generation (him being one of them) was raised on the digital, hip-hop, rap sound...thin drums....and my generation remembers thick analog drums. Consequently, we are subconsciously comparing them.

I’ll be the first to admit I’m more of a player/entertainer than I am a techie. You folks seem to know these keyboards inside out. Any comments on WHY I’m not hearing these things properly in close quarters in the store? I don’t remember having this much trouble buying a keyboard when I was doing it regularly up to about 10 years ago. Did keyboard sound technology change that much or is it simply unreal expectations on my part?

BTW…..just as I started thinking it was my hearing, I noticed a Korg M3 sitting there. I played that. The sound on it was incredible…lush strings, authentic horns, bells, guitars, etc. I understand that it’s a replacement for the Oaysis (which I was also fond of). So….it’s NOT my hearing. I mean that M3 really brought me back to life. To the point I have to consider, if I buy a new arranger, using the M3 as a 2nd keyboard for lead sounds. I played the first movement to Beethoven’s Fifth and Strauss’s Blue Danube on it using the “string orchestra.” I looked up and there was a small crowd around me…I think more to do with the M3 sound than me! That keyboard would be a killer on stage hooked up to a big P.A. system!

Zuki....you're invitation gave me an idea.

Is anyone playing a PA2x Pro in the New York Metropolitan area that I can explore the unit with?

Lucky

Hi Lucky,
maybe a phone call to the salesman, and he may be able to let you know what version os , the Pa800 was running. He just has to look at the screen while it's booting up.
If I remember correctly, Don M had an early version PA800. I think he was less than impressed. I immediately upgraded to 1.51 when I bought mine, so not sure what it sounded like prior.
Sound is subjective.

A couple of the forum members who upgraded from PA800 to PA2X, thought the PA2X sounded better. Haven't heard one, so can't really comment. I've mainly stuck with the PA800 because of the onboard speakers. I find them handy. I don't need the 76 keys as I have a digital piano I can midi it to.

Hopefully you can get to play a PA2X before you decide. Ideally be great if you can get to try both the Ketron & the Korg.

best wishes
Rikki

I'm one of them. I played the Pa2xPro at Frank's store and I also listened to him play it. Although I don't think the specs indicate the Pa2xPro should sound better, it did to both Frank and myself.

Lucky,

Glad you had a chance to explore it live. Hopefully you have a chance to listen in stereo - it makes a huge difference. Any single amp on a floor gags me...

I spend a great deal of time balancing the instruments for live play. Don't know why, but ALL keyboards' bass always drown out the rest of the instruments - I always tone those down first.

Strings: these should sound incredible! I do songs with strings that are absolutely top shelf.
Drums: I am totally happy with the drums, but that's me.
Pianos: again, if you play them in stereo, they should sound great. I love the acoustic pianos. The digitals are very good too.
Organs: The best going
Guitars: Glad you like them. They sure sound good in mixes and there are some great country styles. Add the pedal steel in the pads and wow!
Sax/Trumpet/Flute: Great
Horns: This is the one downfall IMO. That said, I do big band with patch harmony engaged it they come alive.

All I can say is everyone is different. I do believe we 'get used to' the small imperfections a board might have. I know I was disappointed in a FEW style choices I had to live with vs the 900 when I made the switch, but I got on and found ways to make them better - and now I'm happy (and I also forgot how the 900 sounded on those particular songs)

Of course, sounds and styles are the bread and butter. But if they are really up there and pretty darn good, remember the fantastic other features Korg offers. There are MANY inspiring and 'different' features this board will allow vs anything else on the market.

Good luck....

Zuki, I'm beginning to suspect that you like your Korg.

I know Ian. I'm tooting my own horn too much and apologize to anyone who's sick of listening to me I'll turn it off now...

Wishing everyone the joy of whatever they like!

Not at all, Zuki, it is nice to hear someone so positive and enthusiastic about the instrument they play.

I wish I could try one of the Korg arrangers...we still don't have them locally...I guess I'll have to wait till I go back on the road and hopefully find one at one of the dealers on the mainland.

I would probably like it, the styles sound very good and are not like anything else, which is a good thing IMO.

Ian

Lucky,
I don't have a PA800...(built in speakers) I have the PA2XPRO and the sound is AWESOME...but. you need to turn on the general master EQ and maybe tweek it for your sound system and room. (This is true for PA800 and PA2XPRO)

I use Mackie HR824 powered monitors..
When I demoed it in the store OOTB..I didn't love the sound either. I tries it with phones and I think Rolands small cube speakers...BUT when I got that baby home and did a little tweeking and hooked it up to my system...I was very happy.

Lee S.

Hi guys. I’ve been busy playing all last week and doing “catch-up” with everything else these last few days. In between I’ve been researching reviews and comments on the PA2x both here in the SZ (past postings) and all over the Net.

I must admit, I’m kind of worn out from trying to find time to actually “keyboard hunt” (I think it might be easier to find the “meaning of life) but your enthusiasm here keeps me going. That and a keen desire to express music ideas I have in my head.

Rikki: I DID call them about the operating system. It’s the latest one (Version 2.01)! Read your comments about the PA2X sounding better. Good because that’s what I’m going for (PA2X). However, when I called Korg, they assured me it was the same specs and sound engine as the PA800...only difference being the speakers and drawbars. I really don’t believe that’s the ONLY difference!

The 76 keys is what I’m shooting for this time around (it will be my first). 61 keys is too limiting for playing versatility, though I’m not keen on toting it around. But, I’m glad you mentioned a Controller keyboard. I’m going to give that a thought, especially after hearing that Korg M3.

Thanks for the offer of the styles...it WOULD be most appreciated!

Stephen: I would have to agree with you from what I heard so far. I only played it for about 30 minutes (the PA2x Pro), but I also thought it sounded much better than the PA800 and about as good as the Ketron...and with more contemporary features.

Zuki: Stereo...great thought. Yes, I’ll try that also. I’m going to bring my EV P.A. system that I’m used to and play it through those speakers. I have a $2K Dynacord mixer/amp I use with them that absolutely wakes those speakers up.

The EQ I’m going to work on for peak testing. I read in the manual there are “individual” EQ’s on each track and a GLOBAL EQ. Add the EQ on the amp and eventually you get EQ-it is!

The strings on the M3 REALLY impressed me. I played Beethoven’s 5th just with the strings and had a great time with it. Korg said the strings are the same on the PA2x

The drums sounded weak and thin to me (with the Big Band style), but, in all fairness, they did on the Ketron too. I’m coming to the conclusion I’m not hearing them as efficiently as I should be. The Latin sounds are great on both the Ketron and the Korg.

Woodwinds were right on the money. The trumpets also (my favorite instrument). Guitars good…organs good. Piano’s I couldn’t get a good sound. But I never got a good sound “playing” the keyboard…it always sounds better from at least a few feet away, so I must keep that in mind.

Zuki: “remember the fantastic other features Korg offers.”

Lucky: Yes, that’s the main reason I’m quite excited about this board….the things I can do with it!

Lee: Encouraging remarks again. I also think the key to this situation is in the EQ-ing. Korg said I can run two tracks out of the “outs” in the back and EQ each one on an external mixer. I’m thinking to “out” the drum track and the bass track so I can EQ them separate from the “mix.” I think those drums can easily be cleaned up from what I heard in the store.

I’m going to try and find a PA2X Pro locally to try out again now that I have a better understanding of how it works. Or I’ll just try and find the time to drive up to Frank’s place again for the “ultimate keyboard experience!”

Lucky