Enjoy it...I can tell your excited about it.

Well todays demo's got me excited over it all over again...

Congratulations Fran...

Heck, he might get so excited, he might even post some music made on it...

Hey, had the last one what, two, three years? Posted ONE thing done on it (right?) when he first had it, then nada.. zip, zilch.

Maybe this one we get TWO...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 02-12-2009).]

And the self appointed MS policeman kicks in once again. Your life must really be lacking for this to have become your only mission ... which it really seems to be when we see you are always the dominating poster on ALL MS threads. We don't hear much about the pros or cons of your G70 including style demos of it from you but you seem compulsively determined to count MS demos from others. If I am mistaken please point me to the videos of you demonstrating the G70 .... I guess I must have missed them.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 02-13-2009).]

Diki is able to demostrate the G70 with video too?? where???? I will see too!
Maybe Diki is stil working for Roland and they don't allow to record video with Roland instruments?
can be possible?

Anyway ANY video link,also from the CA beach will be really interesting...
please zoom as close as possible to the Ca blonde..

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 02-13-2009).]

Nigel I'd love to see that G70 also of Diki performing on the G70....I have played Fran's MS when it first came out & enjoyed many of it's unique features.....this new updated one will surly be exciting.

Congrats Fran. I think one of the (few) things we have in common (except for our good looks ) is a fondness for the exotic. The difference is that you are far more willing to dig deeply into these feature-rich systems. Kudos to you for your adventurous spirit. I have always been intrigued by the Mediastation but turned off by my addiction to 'instant gratification'. The term "user friendly" was coined especially for me. (Am I) lazy or just plain dumb? Don't know. Probably a little of each.

chas

Thank You Nigel, I have been waiting for someone to say that!
I do not mean just about the one “self appointed MS Policeman” in this post, but about lot of negative posters that shoot down anyone that will step out on a limb and try something different.

I admire Domenik and the work he has accomplished with the Mediastation. It is amazing that as a small company, he has been able to create such a versatile and powerful instrument, far surpassing well established large keyboard companies in their technological improvements!

We as the keyboard consumers deserve a lot more than we are spoon fed by the industry. My early years working with keyboards saw huge leaps forward in keyboard development. Remember when the Kurzweil K250 was first released? Or when the Yamaha Dx7 first hit the streets? Or the first time you heard heard the lush pads on the Roland D50? I know everyone has their nostalgic favorites, but my point is that we had a lot of amazing advances in keyboard abilities in a rather short period of time. But in recent years I have grown very bored with trips to the music store.

Too often new keyboard debuts are just repackaged tech that we have had for years. We’re often asked to pay way too much for the slight improvements we’re given. I think that if anyone is willing to try and break this mold that we as the SynthZone community, should celebrate!

The success of Lionstracs, or any other forward thinking company, will only push all keyboard companies to improve. Lets not hold back any progress with negativity, but cheer it on. We as keyboard players are the ones who benefit!

I eliminated the first paragraph so as to avoid any personal references, but the remainder of this post beautifully articulates my feelings, as well. I believe that avant-garde features (necessarily) come at a cost of operational complexity, which might compromise it's commercial success. However, as long as we (musicians/consumers) continue to demand more and more features from these instruments, we also need to be willing to invest more into learning to use them.

There are clearly, still 'wrinkles' to be worked out, but I continue to believe that this hardware/software (easy upgrade) approach is the way of the future.

I also believe (and this will be controversial) that it's 'boutique' status relieves it from having to compete directly with purely commercial boards like the Tyros3 and PA2x. After all, it is far more that 'just an arranger'. Still, some nice high-quality styles would certainly help with it's commercial ambitions. JMO.

chas

BRAVO BRAVO Nigel. Very well said! Thank you!

Fran,

Congrats on the Media Station. Hope to see a full report from you in the next few days.

Gary

Nice! Which one did you get Fran? It'd be great to get your opinions on it. Actually.., if you still have the older model you should do a comparison between the two and show how far Dom has come with the MS

And at a price very close to the Audya....
the MS is miles in front in features. Have you read what the MS can do?
http://www.lionstracs.com/store/

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-13-2009).]

Nigel,
I am certain that Diki has posted demos here before, I have at least one in my hard drive as we speak. No videos, but music, yes.

Also, the things that Diki points out (not Fran's "lack of demo posting", but about MS or Domenik) have -most of the time- a basis and a substance to them, that most of the time I feel are valid..

While his persistence might be mildly annoying for some, (and for me sometimes), to the point that sometimes it becomes "noise" in a thread, I personally see no reason whatsoever for the above remark, at least from the mod of this forum, whose opinion carries a bigger weight/momentum than others (as demonstrated by the orchestrated echo of similar opinions that followed).

Fran,
I would love to hear things form the MS.

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 02-13-2009).]

Trident we are talking about current demos or videos not old ones.Or ones pertaining to the topic talk.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-13-2009).]

OK

Hey, I just call it the way I see it..

That list of revolutionary instruments you mentioned... K250, DX7, D50... remember how those were immediately used by top pros on damn near everything you heard? None of those sat around for three years or more before anyone came out with a decent piece of music created on it. Top pros recognize what WORKS, what sounds unique, and what is practical to play. And talented amateurs could make great music on them, too. And did. Lots of it...

I am SO fed up with this thing that magically, seems unable to produce good music in the hands of people that, given a G70, or a T2, or a PA2X, are VERY capable of making something that basically doesn't suck...

I've heard ONE piece of Yiddish music on the MS that couldn't be beat by most T2, G70, heck, even an S900's user demos. Is that IT...? Is that all you got...?

I'm sorry, but until something can be made on it, by a reasonable percentage of it's owners (they can't ALL be non-players!) that can't be easily beaten by a semi-proficient player on an S900, the words 'groundbreaking', 'forward-looking' and 'open' shouldn't honestly be bandied around.

The DX7 was 'groundbreaking'. AND it's users had no trouble recording it and making it sound great. The K250 was 'forward-looking', and was IMMEDIATELY heard on records around the world. Why can't I ever hear a few decent MS user demos? Let alone see it being used on the TV and stage?

Is this a crusade? Am I off my rocker? Obsessed? Maybe...

But I simply though I was in the company of people that actually NEEDED to hear something good, before they would take anyone's word that it actually WAS any good... No? Then let me give you my review of the Tyros4. Apparently, I won't need to hear something good on it before I tell you how GREAT this thing is...

Why does MS get a pass, and yet the Audya is held to REAL scrutiny..? At least it had some demos that sounded as good as they were hyping it. That's all I need, I guess... Just a few, teensy-weensy little demos that ROCK...! That actually DO sound amazing, ground-breaking, forward looking...

Too much to ask?

One explanation is that there is some thing call marketing.
Also no person in their right mind will put up an MS demo here when there are rants like that.
The ground-breaking MS comes out and you here I want more much more demos I don’t just want to here how the product works. Then the Ground-breaking Audya comes out with demos on the manufacturer’s webpage but what do you hear, I want technical specs; audio demos from the manufacturers is not enough I want information as to how the product work the way I say it should work. So which one is it. It seems as if there is no effort to understand these newer ground-breaking arrangers and that is evident by comparing them to the T3 G70 and PA2x.

You can not just take one feature and say they do not meet the T3 standard (what ever that is) not many people seem to grasp the concept of integration. Meaning you don’t have to have a controller keyboard, connect that to a midi interface, connect that to a laptop, then try to get all of that to work with different software all on stage live. So until there is some demonstration that there is an understanding and appreciation of these newer keyboards, I don’t think any one would take a demo request seriously. I know I don’t.

Sorry... wrong again.

I don't use Yamaha. I have heard great demos (factory AND user) of S900, T2, T3...

I don't use Korg. I have heard great demos of PA800, PA1Xpro, PA2Xpro.

I don't use Ketron. I have heard great demos of SD-1, SD-5, & Audya.

Just because I don't play it does NOT mean I can't recognize a good demo, user OR factory, when I hear it. And recognize it as such. They may not be the right arranger for me, and I will definitely discuss my viewpoints on their features, both strong AND weak (we all have 'em!), but when I hear a great demo, tune, composition, video, whatever, I give it props...

As for all this 'video baiting', sorry once again, but I'm not sure where that comes from. I got to post more than MUSIC to demo an arranger? I don't want to SEE screenshots and listen to excruciatingly bad demos. I want to hear great demos and keep the damn videos. Nobody LOOKS at my arranger. They LISTEN to it.

When I hear a selection of style demos from Lionstracs that even approach the standard that current TOTL arrangers achieve, you can be assured that I will be the FIRST to jump all over it... and praise it for what it is. A great piece of music, made on a great keyboard.

WHEN I hear it... not before.

I am not defending anyone here. But it makes no sense to promote the features of a keyboard in order to SELL the keyboard and then be afraid to DEMONSTRATE those features to the satisfaction of the people that you are encouraging to buy it. For what its worth , i think the MS is definately improving but Dom is simply trying to sell the board to the wrong audience and will keep getting disatisfied opinions because he is talking to the wrong people .

Has he got any demos that are going to impress the 'right' people?

Or are the 'right' people people that don't NEED a demo? They can tell from stats and specs whether something is a great instrument to use or not...

You see, here's how it is for me... Maybe some of you are amazed at the MS's capabilities (or should we use the word 'possibilities'?), but I have been using VSTi's for years. I've been using beat creation loop tools for years. And I have been using arrangers for years. And the reason I use an arranger is as a live performance tool, simple, easy to use, comprehensive (or as close to it as possible) in it's style diversity, able to help me perform music in lots of different styles as easily as it can do it.

This AIN'T what this does. Sure, technically, it's an arranger. But it is tied to an 'open' system, that does not promote professional, great sounding styles, because the basic truth anyone knows that has tried to successfully translate styles across different manufacturers is that the style and the soundset it was created on are basically ONE.. The style is performed with the sounds, and played back on the same sounds. You get the intention of the creator, the composer, whatever, the drums have the correct sound, dynamics, volumes, timbre, the keyboard sounds reflect his playing, and if he made a great style, you can guarantee that on YOUR arranger (the one he wrote it on) it sounds great.

Now take that style, and put it on anything else. It NEVER sounds as good. Something is always out of whack (if the style had any dynamics and accurate use of the multisamples in the original sounds) when played back on different sounds. But the MS is ALL about using different sounds for the styles, it's core library is not as well integrated as even a T1. Supposedly, every owner loads this thing up with their favorite VSTi's, and hey presto! It sounds amazing...

And this is where the break from reality occurs. Because, so far, has ANYONE heard someone achieve this? I know, I know, THEORETICALLY, it ought to sound amazing. But alas, so far, after YEARS of it being out, there are fewer impressive demos of the MS up anywhere (there goes your 'this place is TOO intimidating' theory ) than the T3 which has been out a few months.

Now, I don't know about you, but I tend to take the number of decent user music (I SO hate the term 'demo'... just call it what it is - 'music') posted up as an indication of how easy it is to make music on it. If NO-ONE gets it good, doesn't that suggest that perhaps it AIN'T easy to make great sounding music on it? I just find it hard to believe that magically, MS's have only landed in the hands of those that CAN'T play worth a damn... Statistically, that's impossible. So if it's not the players, it must be the machine. Simple logic.

Dom time and time again demos great new features (so we are told) with unbelievably bad music made on it. Surely someone, somewhere, is going to make great music on this, if great music CAN be made. So far, not so much...

The most amazing thing I've heard so far on this thread is the idea that people are 'intimidated' into not posting their MS music here. If it IS good (by the standards of other competent arranger music posted here), who isn't plain ITCHING to prove me wrong...? Who wouldn't love to rub egg in my face, make me eat my words (I already promised I would, remember? If it sounds good, I'll say it!), show me up...?

I am not a big Yamaha fan. Doesn't intimidate anyone into not posting. I am not a big Korg fan. No shortage of posters. You know, just using a little simple logic BEFORE you post might avoid some of this flawed reasoning. Personally, I think the reason no-one has posted any great style music from the MS is because THERE ISN'T ANY!

Fran has standards... So, apparently, has everyone else here (how many is it, two, three? ) that has an MS.

Look, all the so-called 'defenders' here. Put up or... [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] Go buy an MS. Make some great music with it. Post it here (or anywhere). PROVE me wrong, quit trying to just argue it theoretically... My whole argument revolves around the lack of good user music. Make some, or at least admit that I MIGHT be right... [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img]

I think Diki is absolutely right. I support his statements 100 percent. http://freenet-homepage.de/United2/

If you read the rant, again, there is a predisposition that the MS would not work the way you think it should work so why should some one post? If most users are content to use arrangers as a glorified Karaoke machine, then putting up a demo would be pointless. Because if some one uses what ever sounds they want in the MS, create their own styles, puts up a demo that is good, and then what would we hear from the detractors, (it is not easy to make styles, how many people would be able to do what you did or my favorite one that can not be the MS; it sounds too real).

Again, if the T3 and Pa2x are used to compare the MS to, then putting up a demo is pointless because obviously some one is not understanding the point of the MS.

Just having knowledge about VSTs, audio loops beat machines, computer hardware and software, may be a distraction to truly understanding the MS.
You know that old saying what you know can hurt you.

Diki all of doms demos that show how quickly VSt's can be opened and used and also how loops can be created and edited without the use of external hardware have been impresssive. It just the arranger functions that have been less impressive.

I agree with much of what you say To the Genesys. But thats exactly why the MS is aimed at the wrong people .

"Because if some one uses what ever sounds they want in the MS, create their own styles, puts up a demo that is good, and then what would we hear from the detractors, (it is not easy to make styles, how many people would be able to do what you did.......'

The fact is it is not easy to make your own styles,( i make styles myself so i am not talking from a theoretical perspective) it is not cost or time efficient to buy all the best VSTs, edit them , balance them in the styles , EQ each and every style and each and every style variation and compose them so that they sound good in every possible chord type that you might use when playing. In an earlier post relating to the Audya i pointed to a glitch in the brass element of a funk/fusion style where the brass played an odd chord not in harmony with ther rest of the style and this is a style produced professionally and with A SOUND SET DESIGNED SPECIFALLY FOR THAT MACHINE....

The MS could be a great workstaion on the same basis as probably the Neko by Open Labs . Both could be great workstations. But ITS NOT A GREAT ARRANGER ...at least not yet. Dom is going to find it dificult selling what is screaming out as a workstation through and through to a mostly arranger market. Thats really the whole problem . I think the MS has great potential But it is not a finished product in terms of its arranger capabilities although the last few demos have shown that in terms of sound it is getting there. But its user interface and physical layout looks very complex and in itself may have been a barrier to potential arranger customers.



[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 02-14-2009).]

Why is that some of the posters on this site, assume that all arranger/organ players want a board that allows them to do what the manufacture says they can do.

Believe it or not, some people want to do what “They” want to do, not what the manufacture allows them to do.

In addition how many family’s would allow controllers, computers, speakers and a multitude of cables in the lounge. (Where most arranger/organs reside)

Regards

Bill

Abacus I agree with you.

All SZ open your mind for new things at last.

BR

Arranger, workstation, VSTi setup... You all have got it wrong. They aren't made to do different things. They are all for the EXACT same thing

MAKING MUSIC...

That's what I don't get. Most seem to have little problem making music on an arranger. And go to any of the sites for WS's like the MoXS, M3, FantomG, etc., there's no shortage of people happy to show the world the music they have made on their WS. Go to many of the VSTi sites, and you'll see plenty of user submitted music.

So where is the great music made on the MS?

You see, very few great musicians are rocket scientists. Although theoretically an MS MIGHT be the right tool for many different jobs, it has to be easy to operate, intuitive to create music on it, and an efficient workflow for it to be picked up by top musicians. I have never heard ANY owner claim these for it! Secondly, if this really IS a great WS (it COULD happen ), few WS users buy arrangers, despite actually being very good in a WS role (they got to get past those arranger controls and the banks of cheesy ballroom and schlager styles!) as long as you make music they are best at.

Look, watch the TV... go out to a major concert. You see very few Neko's out there, too. Apparently, the top pros STILL prefer the ease and convenience of a WS or modeled (or real!) analog synth for performing over even a computer based WS, let alone a computer based arranger... I personally don't believe that the MS is being marketed to the wrong customer. I just happen to believe that the right customer doesn't yet exist

Perhaps those that have great trouble making good music on an arranger might look to this as some kind of technological 'fix' (best of luck with that one), but those that can already make good music realize that a) it isn't what a real arranger is, a content delivery system to assist live music performance, and b) if you need loops, arps and computer based music production, a computer is STILL the easiest and cheapest way to do this. Look how many electronica artists use laptops on stage. THAT is the tool of choice for that market. We are rapidly running out of people that this product IS right for.

It is marketed as an arranger. A vast majority of it's features and workflow are arranger orientated, it is designed to BE an arranger. If it walks like a duck...

If there IS some mythical musician that this product is the perfect tool for making music on, somehow, not one seems to have made it into their hands. There seems to be no shortage of the WRONG hands for this to be in, though. Ergo the demos. Or lack thereof

It's simple. If no-one ever posted any good music, pleasant to listen to, well balanced and realistic sounding, on a T3 EVER, and all the factory demos sounded like Dom's, we would all be sitting around here slagging the T3. But we don't, because the T3 CAN make great music, even in the hands of average players, and in the hands of great players (Yamaha's demos) it sounds fantastic.

I only wish that we held the MS to the same standards. Then maybe, just maybe, Dom might quit making endless upgrades to the OS, and spent his money instead on great sounds and styles that are integrated. Load it up with a standardized set of top quality VSTi's at the factory, EZDrummer, Garritan Jazz Band, Garritan Personal Orchestra, things like that, and then have styles developed specifically for those VSTi's. Then, and ONLY then, will it sound good in the hands of real players, not these mythical 'right people' that mysteriously have not made any decent music on it.

Why do I dominate the MS threads (at least by posting )? Because I am Dom's target buyer to a 'T'. An arranger user, that also does studio work, works extensively with electronic music production, has experience using and appreciating the power of VSTi's, and uses loops in some production work. The trouble is, of course, this also puts me in the perfect position to realize where the flaws in the ointment are. And so far, the core library, and the styles developed for it are the weak point, and probably contribute considerably to the dearth of decent music posted. I've already GOT a decent VSTi setup. I've already GOT the loop tools I need and use. And if I decide to go out live with that type of music, I can use a laptop to do it.

But if I'm going to ponk down a fortune for a hardware keyboard, it has to at least do it's PRIMARY function, that of being a great arranger first and foremost. Which it patently DOES NOT. Why am I posting all the time..? Because I want it to WORK. I want Dom to wake up and realize that, if the arranger WAS as good as all the other TOTL arranger at what THEY do best, the world would be beating a path to his door. With me at the head of it. But until it does, I can only act as the sand in the Vaseline, the itch you can't scratch, the buzzing fly that won't go away.

And maybe, just maybe, if some of you got off your dream couches, and took an objective look at the reality of the MS, not it's 'promise', 'possibilities' or 'potential', maybe you could encourage Dom to actually pay some attention to what REAL players want, not some mythical player that so far fails to have materialized...

Nigel wrote:
"And the self appointed MS policeman kicks in once again. Your life must really be lacking for this to have become your only mission ... which it really seems to be when we see you are always the dominating poster on ALL MS threads. We don't hear much about the pros or cons of your G70 including style demos of it from you but you seem compulsively determined to count MS demos from others. If I am mistaken please point me to the videos of you demonstrating the G70 .... I guess I must have missed them."

Very well said Nigel.
I'm feeling really tired of reading posts where people want to teach us what is right, what is wrong.What kind of keyboard is good, what is not.
These people forget that the right of free choice is healthy.
Besides, I do not see from these people, performances that make them able to dictate rules.
Lots of bla bla bla and few music.
Chico

Exactly Chico very well said....
& nothing new here. Great post.

Like what Diki says, or not,he is seldom wrong. Sometimes a naysayer is needed to get a balanced answer.

Well...I thinh here we have lost the point of view..
IF you are looking for the HiFi sounds styles perfection ( I dont mean about the midi tracks structure)then the MS ( I think) is not the right arranger for this features.

How Spalding and Diki sayd before, the MS is a softsynth based workstation and NOT a ROM system.
With a standard ROM system that include the right fixed sounds and engine ( like the Yamaha, Roland, Korg...) they are able to develope amazing styles and really good volumes levelled that seem like playig one Stereo HiFi.
Do NOT cray then if you need a more powered drumkits, boost Bass or Audio loops, because sometime this fixed ROM system keybard have some limitation.
OF course they can offer the 64Mb, 256Mb, 1000Mb of sampler, but you have to choose a compromise, slow system for loading the data in Ram before ready to play and also data format/quality.
Said that, in the ROM system the all sounds are generated from one DSP, with a typical one Stereo out, where then is really simple control the global volumes tracks and then you get a nice global sounds out.

Still with the EMC Styles converter is not possible get a true 1 to 1 brand conversion, why? because sounds from one ROM system to another are different and can NOT be full 100% compatible and mixed too.

With the MS softsynth this is more complicated, because the standard GM format is made in GIG sounds and are totally different as a ROM based system. ( example, try to play one Yamaha XG format midifile in one keyboard and you will hear here the difference too, a total sounds confusion)

Start to play/editing one midi styles on MS give a lot of possibility, for each track to load one different GIGA sounds or to use some ASIO host VST engines for the same style.
the Audio out result is totally different and MORE different souds engines you open, more is complex to control the global volumes.

On Ms you have to choose with taste of sounds to use: If yu are looking for the HiFi sounds, choose the ROM system, If you are looking for a totally different powered sounds ( but more hard to control all in realtime)then can be the MS.

If you have happy with just a couple of new sounds offered on a new keyboard and you dont care the loading time for a new simple sounds, then choose again one ROM system.

If you still not happy like the new "Grand pianos" that the ROM system offer, on MS you are able to loading the all sounds that you like, from GIGA format to VST//ASIO format. Press one MS keys function and PLAY.

Do still NOT like the MS sounds that we offer for free? http://sonart.cc/shop/product_info.php?products_id=210
here give a lot of sounds for Free Or make a deal: http://sonart.cc/shop/product_info.php?products_id=122
79.99USD and for 2 years you are able to download for FREE the all sounds, loops library.. that they continue offer.
With the same money from yamaha you can buy just a couple of new style...

This mean Open system, BUt if you still are looking for a HiFi system, softsynth is the wrong keyboard, you have to choose the compromise.

Anyway, IF you don't like the MS styles, then you can use the MS like the Roland Fantom G, the concept is the same.
Qranger is a Audio-midi SEQ, record unlimited audio -midi tracks, record your Voice, Guitars parts.... and play over it with the new GIGA /ASIO/VST sounds.
Qranger under SEQ mode, still can have the 32 pattern loop pointer and make the global song transpose by +/- keys OR by chords changes!
Same way we use the Qranger for the Midifiles players, because we can insert the 32 marker loop pointer and switch in realtime like the arranger, the all parts of the midifile, + the global transpose of course.

About Frank new MS:
Frank need ONLY to upgrade his old 32bit MS, with a new AM2 Mainboard, Dualcore CPU and SATA2 HD or the new OS 3 Kubuntu can not be installed, is NOT compatible.
After this PC hardware upgrade, Frank can have the last same OS system and features that you saw on the videos demos.
This PC upgrade will cost for sure LESS than upgrade one T2 to a T3 and the live continue again...

have now understand the MS point?
Always...enjoy what you play.

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 02-14-2009).]

O K hear is the person who the MS should be marketed to.
Some one like me who uses VST’s audio loops in a studio setting to right songs. That same person also play live at gigs. That person also uses an arranger. That person does not want to use a lap top on stage to try and get every thing connected. That person also wants to perform original songs and styles at live gigs with the VSTs used in the recording.

The on board styles is not the important part of the keyboard. I along with a lot of other persons I know don’t by an arranger for the onboard styles.
Now what the MS offers is that all of that is integrated on one machine.
The MS is for persons who want to be creative not just a glorified Karaoke player. Some persons make style making to be rocket science. I guess if you are trying to sound like a Yamaha style perhaps. But one of the lesser known secrets about style making is that you can make them suited to your style of playing. You see if I use an on board style, I am saying I have to play based on what the manufacturer has in the style. Where as if I make my own style, I can make it to where it would be best for my playing and performance style. For example, I do not make my style too complex with lots of busy tracks. I make it to where I could play at lease 10 songs on one style. I like to have the keyboard split where I would have 2 sounds available in the right and one sound or a stack of sounds in the left (hence the need for 76 keys).
So it would take an open mind to understand the MS. But if you are always wanting the MS to be a T3 P2x or G70 closed system, then you just would not grasp the concept.

The major problem MS and other Italian keyboard companies have is marketing. They are terrible at Marketing.

And making demos...

'The on board styles is not the important part of the keyboard. I along with a lot of other persons I know don’t by an arranger for the onboard styles. '

And theres the problem. I know that some eastern europeans customers are very much into sampling their own instruments and programming their own styles because there is a shortgae of these styles and sounds in conventional arrangers. But certainly in the west the vast majority of arranger customers would not have a clue about sampling or creating their own sounds or styles . They ACTUALLY BUY AN ARRANGER BECAUSE THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE FOR THEM. And it has nothing to do with their lack of imagaination . They simply either dont have the skill set or the inclination to develope them to make their own styles. With the other manufacturs of arrangers , thats not an issue as they UNDERSTAND THE MARKET THEY ARE SELLING TO and provide the styles and sounds with the arranger complete.

There was a thread a few months ago where people expressed a genuine interst in buying the mediastaion becaise it was being sold at just 1000 euro's. It was a special ofer. No one ever came back to say that they were happy with their purchase or even that the purchase went through.
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/018202.html

You said 'The major problem MS and other Italian keyboard companies have is marketing. They are terrible at Marketing. '

You hit the nail on the head my friend ! But marketing is not just about getting the message out about your product so that the market understands what the product can do, its essentially about understanding what the market wants and giving them what they want in a manner that they will easily uinderstand and happily purchase. Dom does it the other way round. HE decides what the market SHOULD want ( thats guys like me) and then gets frustrated when the market does not respond favourably to WHAT HE THINKS THEY SHOULD WANT AND HAVE. Then he provides an update that he thinks should be included on the mediastation and tries to convince the market that this makes the product even more attractive.And so on... Funnily enough thats the premise of buying the Mediastaion... that you wont be forced to buy what the other manufacturers tell you you should have . What do you think is slightly ironic about that reasoning ?.....:-)

Liontracs ...Your explanation above gives an excellent example of the complexities of having a keyboard like the meiastation as an arranger. If buyers want to buy an arranger that out of the box sounds like a korg, yamaha, roland arranger then the MS is unlikely to meet their needs. You are so very very right. Unfortunately you are for the most part talking to the wrong customer by your own definition on this forum...

Korg , Yamaha etc dont just dream up the features that their products have ! They are not just lucky that the features they 'force' on the buying public just happen to be the features that the market are lapping up hence the success of yamaha etc. They spend probably hundreds of thousand of dollars researching what they feel the market will go for and then provide it in the most suitable manner in their keyboards.

I am sure there must be other arranger forums where people like To the Genesys or Ensnare you or Fran frequent. If there are give Dom a helping hand somebod and point him to them .Perhaps Dom would have more luck there ?


[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 02-15-2009).]

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 02-15-2009).]

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 02-15-2009).]

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 02-15-2009).]

I am not prepared to suffer a lousy arranger, to get WS and loop player functions. Plenty of WS's that already do that. Arps, loops, sync'd up, cutting edge sounds...

But I use an arranger. So I need THAT to sound great first. THEN I can appreciate all the other goodies. But if the arranger sucks, it kind of makes the rest of the goodies not so good.

Dom has his head in a very dark place if he thinks that suddenly, after 20 or 30 years of an arranger providing styles for the player to use, and sounds that go together with them, the vast majority of arranger players around the world are going to start to write their own. Balkan and middle eastern users MIGHT develop their own styles, but I GUARANTEE that, when they have to play Western music, they use the styles that came with their arranger... You don't see much in the way of middle eastern developed western styles, do you?

And, I'm sorry, but even Dom doesn't see it that way... or he wouldn't develop ANY styles and sounds for it. Just sell it empty, and let the user do it ALL for themselves. So, I'm sorry, but that argument just doesn't hold water. No, the problem isn't that Dom doesn't think that the MS even NEEDS good styles and sounds... It's just that he can't afford to make them.

They are expensive. The soundset development and style development is possibly the most expensive thing he has to do. Write a few lines of code? Write a few tens of thousands of lines of code? He knows how to do THAT. But sampling a coherent soundset, and then develop styles for it that compete with the T3, PA2, or G70? Quite obviously, he himself cannot do it. And that means hiring someone (or several someones) that CAN. And that cost money. LOTS of it...

Making styles is HARD... or there would be a million of them out there for pennies, and they would all sound as good as the factory ROM styles. They don't. In fact, about the ONLY time you get to hear great new styles is when a new arranger gets released. Hell, they are so expensive, even the Big 3 don't make many of them except for a new arranger!

This is the dirty little secret of the MS... Sure, you COULD get it to sound great. IF you were the guy making factory styles for Yamaha or Korg, etc.. But how many user styles have you ever heard that sound even close to the quality of a ROM style? Bloody few, as far as I am concerned. I refuse to believe that middle eastern style makers are any better than western ones. Just that their music is so unfamiliar that I am unable to recognize how poor those styles are (and that there aren't any ROM styles in those genres to compare them to )

Yamaha don't sell the MoXS without any great arps and loops in it. Yamaha don't sell the T3 without great styles in it. But apparently, Dom thinks he can sell the MS without them. Just add your own... Trouble is, be REALISTIC about your chances of making a style as good as Yamaha's ROM styles (or any of the Big 3).

Look, it's simple. If you can make a piece of music on a WS, with no loops or arps, that could fool a LOT of people that they are listening to a real band, do all the drum parts, bass parts, keys, strings horns, then you possibly DO have the skills to make a decent style. Mind you, it's a lot harder making a style that can be used for a lot of different songs, that is useful to an arranger player, than one specific tune...

In other words, if you are already making top pro music production entirely by yourself, at close to the highest level, without using an arranger or production loops, then yes, you could make some great styles...

How many of those do we have here at SZ...

Crickets chirping

Dom, please... you still don't get the point... once and for all... all this technical blabber is USELESS in a music world where the only thing really matters is to MAKE GOOD MUSIC.
Listen... I'm an italian computer programmer, so I know about computer systems rather well, but I like also to play music at home just for my enjoyment. And I want good sounds coming out from what I play.
The first time I saw your website, and read about the MS, well... my first word was.. "wow... A linux system on a keyboard... real time streaming of sounds, VSTi... this thing should sound awesome..." but... after seeing all the videos and hearing all the demos of the MS I could find on the .net, my view changed drastically... Is it possible that in the world nobody could produce a good-sounding piece from this thing? What Diki says is real, if NOBODY EVER showed a good-sounding demo out of it, then probably there's something wrong.

Again these responses only validate my points.
If I just wanted to play I would have gotten a piano.
What I have in a keyboard is an electrical instrument that entails programming and setting up sounds and styles and that can and should allow me to sound like me and not some one else.
Lets face it, a keyboard (today’s WSs and arrangers) is perhaps one of the most complex and involved electrical instruments. To get the best out of it you have to be a good player (that is the first thing), you must understand midi and sound and music creation. Remember back in the day when we use to use 3 keyboards, 2 drum machines and have everything midied together? You not only had to no how to play but also you had to understand a complex midi system. That is just part of the electrical keyboard instrument. That is what would distinguish keyboard players from a DJ. If you are using your arranger correctly, you should never have to educate your audience and show them that you are not a DJ. It should be apparent that just by hearing you play that you are the one in control of the music; you have a lot to do with the live keyboard parts and the accompaniment.



And when I am talking about creating styles, I am not just talking about Eastern but Western ones also. Like I said before, if you are trying to make your styles to sound like a Yamaha factory style, then you are missing the point about style making. And in fact, that is what I am talking about when I say most people on this forum use their arranger as a glorified Karaoke machine.
A style is an auto accompaniment not a auto replacement.

The other point that a lot of persons seem to forget is that the MS is not just an arranger like T3 PA2x and G70, but it is also a WS that can record Audio so comparing the MS to the T3 and others demonstrates that most persons on this forum just do not understand much about the MS. Again, MS’s market is not nor should it be the persons who would use a T3 or G70 but ones who would use a Motif xs, Korg M3 and computer software like OMB and band in-a box.
I guess it is hard to competently critique something when you don’t understand what that thing is.

I would like to make an inquiry for
1) the whereabouts of the guy who was congratulated for getting a "new MS"
2) his lack of comments on the new MS

Fran is currently in the process of upgrading his older model MS to meet all new factory specs & features as we speak....when done it will be on par with today's MS models.....he is currently busy gigging but I'm sure will post his experiences & opinions asap.Definitly more to come...

MAybe a tought

Linux is an open system, that builds on a community...

If this is the true Linux Arranger, then the community should stand up and create those killer styles....

Only that way the MS will succeed, build and created by the community.

People that expect a Mediastation to do anything straight out of the box should stick with Yamaha. Then you know what you get with all its limitations.
People that want a tool to do "Incredible Things" with want an open system.... the results of the open system will far surpass that of the satndard T3 system, but it will require tons more effort.

Just make your choice.....

Talk about limitations!

Try making great music the day you get your MS...

Now that's a REAL limitation

I don't know about Dom's playing skills, but first of all, assuming an arranger is a glorified karaoke machine might point towards HIS experience on them! The arranger only plays as much (or as little) as you want it to. But what you DO have the arranger play (presumably, you actually NEED this, or you might as well get a WS) needs to be convincing, needs to groove, needs to inspire you. And, let's face it, were all the MS owners out there as inspired as the owners of a T3, there WOULD be a deep pool of great user music.

And, as we can tell from the MS factory demos, so far, Dom hasn't even found ONE person that 'gets' his vision of the ideal user... The factory demos don't show totally original music at it's best. If his own demonstrators can't come up with this, how is he supposed to expect that, in OUR hands, it is going to sound amazing?

Simple question... Dom, did you EVER used to be an arranger player? I have my doubts.

sorry i cant agree with any of this. the technology is not what makes the instrument sound good. It is the musicain, this is and always will be the bottom line. Todays arrangers do not in anyway limit what a musician can do musically with a keyboard, only their imagination limits them. An Ms or Pa2X or T2/3 is not going to make anyone make great music. Its simply untrue that a closed system product limits how good your music will sound. Tbe Mediastaion has been around for at least 3 years or more and the Neko and wersi a bit longer i think. Can anyone point me to a demo on these open systems (either user Demo or pro demo )that sounds better than anything produced on the closed system keyboards Demos like yamaha, korg roland , even casio ?

The technical limitations on paper seem significant but in your ear mean squat.

The premise is false.

Last bit. I am not a technician. I understand very little about midi. I dont need to to make good music. When i am in the studio there are technicians to sort out the technical stuff. I show up plug in sing and play and go home. At home i do everything onboard my PA2X so i never need any other external equipment.I write songs and arrangements all on the one piece of equipment. To make great music on an arranger does not need a high degree of technical skill in terms of programing but if you wanted to you could make sounds that would compete very well with any keyboard/workstation synth. But that requires imagination and creativity. The Wersi , Neko, and Medistation dont come shipped with that.....

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 02-15-2009).]

I know for one that teh Wersi is teh most complete keyboard if you get it straight out of the box....

But then the wersi keeps getting more complete every update ....and they are expensive...really expensive.
why?
Well Wersi needs to make a living and when tehy sell you an Arranger that live for 10+ years, they have to make sure that in the end they make just as much money as Yamaha that sold you 4 Tyros moddels over the same periode...

Well...IMHO...the Mediastaion looks very somilar to the software arranger idea I have played with EXTENSIVELY.

PC based, high quality sounds through use of high end sample players (giga etc) VSTi's well supported, full high end sequencer functions, high quality sound card producing very high quality sounds.

Add in the software arranger ( I used Live-Styler) and one or more (2 in my case, stacked like an organ) full function MIDI controllers (or PRO synth's) throw in a 13 pedal MIDI pedalbaord if you like.


AND...Wah La! You have a Mediastation...it's just that Dom put it all together???

One thing (For me) is missing...CONTENT.

Yes, with my setup I can use Yamaha styles ( and now others in V10.5+) BUT, you have to put it all together and setup and programming is not insignificant.

Also, In my case (Not Dom's??) getting enough hardware controllers setup to do all the arranger functions is a pain. It can be done and I was 80% there.

IMHO...What Dom needs to do to make this bird fly is to be able to play Yamaha Styles!!!! Wersi did it, why not Mediastation?? Also, other SW programs play Yamaha styles...Live-Styler etc.

If he had that...i would be 'Katie, Bar The Door'.

Oh, as to the folks in 'community' doing the styles...NFW...it takes lots and lots of Musical talant as well as tech. talent to do that.

Lee

WHO told you that the Live-Styler is NOT working on mediastation??

The Live -Styler under multiple ASIO host work really fine, plus also the possibility to open unlimited others ASIO host in realtime.

The first problem found on Live-Styler is the right Sounbank XG, the XG Yamaha VST work too BUT is not complete of the all missing sounds for the styles.

Second problem ( but is not so a big problem, we made the same for the B4 II) is to choose one ASIO Host Patch and then remapping the all Live-styler midi controllers on the MS side.
I have to check IF the Live-Styler can be totally controlled by API or midi controllers for full cotrol of the all features.
IF there give this possibility and you can also find one decent XG soundbank for the style, we can integrate this engine on MS too.

We have preferred to invest more in one Native Linux audio-Midi SEQ for the full audio streaming and giga support integrated.
Live-styler is only a 8 tracks system without the audio streaming sync possibility.

IF you feel better with this tool integrated on MS, I will try to find one solution, BUT first I will hear one decent XG soundbank.

Domenick are there any Instructional DVD's that would show people how to use all these features on the MS...from beginner to advanced user?.....With all these great features I am sure many wouldn't even know where to begin if they purchased an MS unit.

I guess this would be to much to ask from such a small company....

I would hope not bachus......with such a complex instrument like the MS it is extremely critical to offer the best instructional DVD demonstration in different playing levels to owners so they may get the most from the product they have purchased. It just seems so essential & logical don't you think?

>> 1) He's in the process of making an excellent demo which nobody on an MS has been able to do thus far.. OR: 2) The reason he hasn't responded to this thread is he either had a heart attack and kicked the bucket (rest in peace Fran sorry.. ) OR he already sold the MS (hey Donny! ) and is too ashamed to admit it.. unlike Donny. lol..

Just kidding Fran.. We're still waiting on that demo though.

All the best,
Mike

Dom,
OK, let's go here...now this is my question...is MS an arranger or not?

If it is, then why do I need Live-Styler?
What style fromats do you support? Yamaha?, Korg, Roland, Ketron etc???
We are now talking about the real reasons the SW arranger is not quite there yet! MS is no different as far as I know.

If you only support your own style format...your in trouble. It take TONS of talent to make styles that are good. Thousands of $$$. To support Yamaha styles is your best bet today.
Wersi was very smart to license Yamaha style playing on the OAS system.

As to LS, the 8 tracks you see are for RH and LH sounds. You also have all the style tracks in addition. 8 tracks is more than any HW arranger I know of?

As to Yamaha XG...make a XG sound set from the quaity Giga (or other) sound sets. Put in Megs conversion, meaning if a mega voice is in a style...convert it to the next best non-mega sound )LS does that today). Eventually make your own mega sounds for MS. Not really that difficult for the right person (hire it done?).

The style issue is huge...IMHO to be really successful in the arranger word you will need to solve it. Most of us do not have the talent or time to be making a lot of our own styles for MS. Now & then we like to make a special one. It takes lots of hours.

Lee

How come, if Dom knows exactly who the MS is perfect for, he hasn't managed to get him to produce a decent demo for the MS?

You would simply think he could ask the guy for some music... because, like, he's making a boatload of it, isn't he?

All is possible

Diki you do not know becasue you did not try MS.


http://www.esnips.com/doc/c775b069-a794-4bc0-afa7-2e28dab983cd/Pop-1

Ok, just made some new experiment test with the last available Live Styler:


is full nice working and also can be used with our giga soundbank GM.
in the setup is available to configure the all midi outs ports and also to integrate on same Live Styler engine the VST or SF2 soundfonts.
I will try to buy this EdgeSounds SoniqBear GM120Pro: http://www.ntonyx.com/sf.htm
for hear IF this XG banks can cover the yamaha styles sounds too.

the best way is to clone the Tyros 3 under Giga Format with the extreme sample converter, but at this moment our sound designer have cloned only the 70%, need some more time for complete it.

About MS arranger, the qranger have a own format, like a session SEQ file and is not compatile with other styles.
For loading other brand styles, we have first to use the ENC style converter and use the Export to SEQ midifile format and then import on Qranger: http://www.lionstracs.com/demo/qranger/QrangerEMCmulti.wmv
the work then is to mixing again the all volumes and setup the correct sounds IF you will not use the basic giga GM sounds.

with the Live Styler can be one interesting features, because then you can only copy the yamaha styles on the MS Hard disk and play it all direct, without any modification.

From our side, we can editing the MS arranger interface to manage the TWO arranger enines in realtime: Qranger and Live Styler.
If one style have the .QTR ( qtractor) extension, the style will be played in qranger, is the style have the .psr extension, will be played from Live Styler. http://www.lionstracs.com/demo/qranger/msqrangermain.jpg
All the OS will be trasparent and easy for the MS user.
Can be interesting for you there?

An arranger is a keyboard that allows the user to play chords in the left hand and get other sounds to automatically play and follow the chords (primarily drums, bass piano/guitar and so on) while at the same time allowing the user to play a melody or chord in the right hand.

That is the basic feature of an arranger, and with out that ability can not be called an arranger or said to have arranger qualities.


Now, some keyboards may have additional features like 1 2 3 or 4 variations, 1 2 3 or 4 fills intros or endings, different chord recognition tables, and most have styles coming from the factory.


There are some keyboards that are strictly arrangers and can not do any thing else like the Yamaha T3 and PSR s 900. While there are other arrangers that are both arrangers and workstations like Korg PA2x and the Gem Genesys.


Now the mediastation is taking it a step further where it is not just an arranger, it is not just a workstation, but can play and used VSTs and audio files.

In no way shape or form can the MS be classified to be just an arranger like the Yamaha PSR S900. In no way shape or form can the MS be classified to be a workstation like the Roland G nor can the MS be classified to be just a DAW, software arranger or synth, but it is a hybrid of these three different types of music making tools.


Regardless of the amount and quality of the content shipped with the product, it does not change what it is or whether it can function as an arranger, workstation or a DAW/software synth arranger.

Yes you are right.

MEDIASTATION is something new in shape of arranger. You can do with it many many things. it is only your tool for thinking of new developing of your music or production.

Software can do anything. That i want to tell you.

Here is once link of my imporvisation with style POP FUNK 1 which is ordinary style of MS:

http://plac.siol.net/index.php?m=c9ae77e8&a=dc18f91e&share=LNK445549995520cb953

[This message has been edited by Magica Alfa (edited 02-16-2009).]

[This message has been edited by Magica Alfa (edited 02-16-2009).]

Maybe its now tiome for a few mediastation fiesta Workshops around the USA so we can really see the MS in action?

Just made a deal with Norbert Stellberg, the developer of Live Styler.
Norbert will be release a special version interface for the MS OS and the all communication protocoll for our system.
Maybe for end this week all is integrated in our OS.
The main MS arranger interface will remain the same, when a new style with .psr extension will pressed, automatically the Live Styler wil play it.
If another style is selected, with the .qtr extension, autonatically the Qranger wil play it.
So...soon we have TWO arranger engine integrated on OS with full yamaha and Ketron styles support, I think is enough.
Enjoy what you play

Where can we see the MS demonstrated live in the USA? All this new technology is very interesting.
Also wan't there supposed to be a 61 key version in the works?




[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-16-2009).]

I hope that things like this will be part of the community discovering the possibillities of the MS..... and then sharing thier discoveries with the rest of the community...

This would leave MS with delivering the sounds and tools, and the community with adding new options which can be sounds, styles, tools and even more....
As said before..Linux is a community thing, and so should the MS be...


Advice..... create a MS package that people can install on any PC they want (with standard specs) so they can toy around with the programs and tools and find out more about the lovely heart of the MS...
I am sure that when people get accustomed with the MS and a coupled midi keyboard, they will choose a Mediastation for on stage too.....

Share the software, its what made M$, Intel and IBM what they are now.....And people will buy the hardware....
Give the community the tools... and they will create what the MS needs.....killer styles and aplications....You just can't do it all in house ... The project is way to huge and aspiring for that.

[This message has been edited by Bachus (edited 02-16-2009).]

This all depends on how close you can come to the sound of both Yamaha and ketron instruments...It should be possible, to come very close tough with the right sound developers....

Right!
the first really good working experiment I made by connecting the Live Styler on one Linuxsampler midi port and use the current Sounbankg GM2.
work nice with GM sounds too, just for the minimal soundbank setups.
In the Live styler give the possibility to load different device too, VST and SF2 soundfonts, then I think the soundbank right now is relative. The User then can choose the best one.
For me right now more important is the full integration of Live Styler on MS side, for choose the midi out device and soundfonts need just some minute of setup.

Bachus
I had this same idea too but is really complex now release a standard PC mediastation distribution, because the all MS code if full integrated and in continue communication with the pannel API: 176 Keys, 340 Leds, sliders, encoders..
when the MS application start have to inizialize the pannel and IF is not found, all crash!

What I will release soon is one Qranger PC distribution for develope audio-midi styles in a normally PC.
More is not possible.

Well I guess you have to buy one of these MS units & hope for the best being no one will answer me on where you can see one demonstrated in the USa aty this time or in the future?

I get last week a really interesting mail request for open one Lionstracs USA support and reseller point or distribution.
the name of this person is really GOOD know from one brand company and is also one SZ member too.
When we have found one nice agreement you will there know asap from this guy too.

Great ....I hope you can work things out with these people and get the MS out there for people to see and understand what it's all about.....this will greatly enhance your mission....people want to touch, play, see, try, demo,listen to these items it's the only way an educated consumer can make a decison if the item is right for them & their needs........and after the sale DVD instructional sets too.

One word of advice if I may.

You probably do not want to talk about any future deals until there is a written agreement and a marketing and business strategy has been carefully planned.
You must think about what action you are going to take and what type of reaction you will get from your action.



[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 02-16-2009).]

Dom,
I think your on to something....Because of me some? :-)

Live-Styler is superb and has gotten even better with the plus add-on. We can now DIRECTLY play KETRON styles and even use the Ketrom SD-2 or 4 for sounds (And the Ketron sounds are in the instrument file in LS)

IF, IF you could get the hardware conrollers to work well with LS...then you have esentially a Tx built into MS!!!!
The world of Yamaha styles would be available!

Then, the only real thing is to spend a chunk of time getting the XG sound set mapping into a VERY high quality sound set (Giga or ??) INCLUDING mega-voices.

I personally have gottem LS to work very well here (within liitations). I use:

LS 10+

15" Touch Screen

Korg PA2XPRO on top (I also can use T2)

CME UF70 76 key MIDI controller on bottem

Roland PK-5 MIDI pedal board for arranger control And/Or manual base (switch selected)

The MISSING piece, so to speak is all the HW controls I need. I have done some, but not all. This is the piece that is tough, not technocally (MIDI is powerful) but Physically to have the controls since NO arranger or MIDI controller KB ALL of what we need here.

One more thing..as some of us have experimented a 'lot' with a SW arranger the big issue is of integration...all the pieces are there...how to make it all work together (musically)

I have often though...I should write a program package to do just that.

IF, any of the Dxxm HW arrangers from any MFG would send ALL MIDI mesages from every function key, slider etc..it would be great. But the MIDI implementation is crap on the arrangers unlike a PRO synth...but...the PRO synth doesn't have all the buttons we need and they are not in the right places...so is the problem.

What I need is: A high end MIDI controller KB, 76 keys with the controllers 'aranged' like an arranger (pick Yamaha,Korg, Roland etc) and all the controllers are fully programmable. With full PRO level MIDI implementation!

Don't exist today.
Lee S.

Hi Lee

Have a look at the CME VX range of controllers http://www.cme-pro.com/products-list/product-vx.html as you may find these give a general arranger layout style.

Also see if you can find a used Bohm Keybits arranger (The name changed to Silverbird when they changed from black to a silver finish) as these were available with and without an internal sound generator, as well as an advanced Midi setup, and so literally was an Arranger Keyboard Controller.

LS still only adapts Megavoice styles to a closer standard voice rather then play them as is, but apart from that 10.5 gives you pretty much everything you get in an arranger, and then some. (Don’t forget the GS mode so that you can also play Roland Styles)

Regards

Bill

Ahhh... I see. When I try the MS, suddenly I am going to be able to make better music that anyone else I have heard on it so far...?

That's quite a compliment. Thank you. Unfortunately, my own impressions of my skill are more realistic. I tend to listen to the best that a manufacturer puts up as a demo, and just HOPE I can get close... Sadly, with the MS, that's not much of a challenge

Like I have said forever... if Dom can't find anyone to make great styles on the MS, how come he expects average (or even above average ) users to be able to do it? This is the most asinine argument here. If the manufacturer cannot get it to sound good, why does he expect his customers?

I honestly have a sneaky feeling that Dom has never really USED an arranger before he started to make one. If he had, he would understand a little better what people want in one. And it AIN'T sitting home trying to make passable styles. Because, if HE had spent all his time doing that before he made the MS, he would a)know how difficult it is, and b)if he WAS good at it, there would be a plethora of great styles for the MS.

I don't believe he knows what an arranger is at all.

Bill,
Thanks for the info...while the VX is pretty good...it isn't even close to what we need...LOTS more switches arranged close to the keys etc. I'll check out the others you recommended.

Diki,
EXACTLY...very few can or want to make any styles. That's whay I think the LS idea is great...IF he can make it work really well with all controllers (sw, sliders etc. Then Yamaha styles and others will work on MS.

Still have to get a better XG sound set and have real mega-voices for styles. He has the RH voice part licked (lots of good choices for that).

Lee

Look, that's the main difference between Yamaha and everybody else right there in a nutshell... Mega voices, and SA2 solo voices.

Live styler, AFAIK, does not do the Mega stuff correctly yet, and copying Yamaha's Mega voices brings up copyright issues (remember that old topic? )... not to mention OS features that make them work (like only transposing notes inside a certain range).

What's the point of doing Yamaha styles in a software form, if all you get are wanky soundfont sounds, no Mega stuff (or off-kilter ones), no SA2 voices and something that sounds like a 90's PSR (and a cheap one at that)? Just so you can play Yamaha styles?

C'mpn, fer Pete's sake! When was the last time you heard a software arranger that sounded as good as a T3? Or a PA2. Or a G70. Or an S900. Or a cheap Casio!

Translated styles SUCK... period. And the better the style, the worse the translation sucks. The sound and the style are inextricably linked. The MS needs it's own styles, for it's own soundset.

And, if it wants to really be an arranger, rather than a WS with undeveloped arranger styles and sounds on board, it needs a top level VSTi soundset already on board when sold, and styles written precisely for that sound set. Just like every other arranger does.

Expecting the customer to have the skill to do something only a handful of people in the world can do well is insane. Might as well sell us the components to the MS, and go 'design the thing yourself' There are probably about as many arranger players capable of doing that as there are arranger players capable of making their own soundset and styles...

I think if you make a software device that mimmics your hardware, it could work...

But that surely would take a huge ammount of time.....

I think Diki makes a lot of sense here. Just my gut feeling though as I am no expert in this area.

Without its native styles, the MS is not a USABLE arranger to most of us in this forum.

But maybe "someone" here is working on that and MS is mum about it.

If MS has 200 great native styles and priced below $1500, I think it will sell a lot.

Or maybe a stripped down version for less than $1000 and I will probably buy it. It will protect me from obsolescence for many years to come. With styles upgraded every so often and maybe even for sale - it is like having a new arranger. Then Yamaha/Korg/Roland will really be in trouble.

Here are so many possibilities. That what is inside and what is possible, nobody can not use.
True MS is having only ca 200 styles included ex works. But I thing Dom can give you additional styles if you want. (2 banks of style)

If you want TOP STLYES developed with some special VST's than you need only to see what type of VST and what type of music you are playing and I can tell you it is easy to reconnect jacks and it plays different.

If you say that style pop funk that I use in my song is bad than you are really wrong. I can show you how bad it looks on G70 or in PSR9000 with factory preset. But this what you listen (if you did) is GM standard of MS nothing else except right hand where is B4 II - Native instruments ( here is link: http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=b4ii ) and RealStrat-MusicLAB (here is link: http://www.musiclab.com/products/realstrat_info.htm )

And price:
Good PC is cost $1500 and where is music card TFT LCD, buttons and good keyboard extra plates for controlling all this things, housing and finally big fish - software etc. common this things cost a lot. I thing Dom is selling this really good machine - MEDIASTATION at really discounted price because he love this approach and he want to invite to cooperate with us freaks. I'm really excited with MS and I'm using it all the time and in all my playing in this 3 years I can tell you I'm satisfied with it a lot but from start not now. Now is more friendly for use and more as you says keyboard from box


So DIKI and others please do not blame MS. You need first to try it and than you can say something.
Even if you will try it will not help you, because I thing you are GUY FROM BOX

[This message has been edited by Magica Alfa (edited 02-17-2009).]

WOW!!!! And then you wonder why arrangers do not sell well and appear to be declining.
When you have persons insulting and basically calling arranger players not competent and well rounded electric keyboard users (if you have an electrical instrument that allows you to create and you say you can not then you are not competent), then what do you expect the manufactures to develop? What do you expect other electric keyboard players to think about arranger players? What do you expect your audience to think about your competency on your instrument when you yourself are saying that you are not competent?


We always comment on the bad perception that arrangers have but what do you expect when people on this forum degrade and belittle arranger players.
Look you know what could probably happen, arranger manufacturers may say if the few arranger players out there just want a glorified karaoke player, then they would oblige and only manufacture keyboards with styles, devoid of creative features and basically be a mid range arranger $1500 and under. Others who want a more expressive instrument would not be able to get that in an arranger. So they would do to that person what Yamaha is doing to the 76 key arranger market (giving them the finger).

We basically could kiss the TOTL arrangers good buy.

So by insulting and belittling arranger players, you are helping the demise of the arranger.

Hi Magic Alfa. Thanks so much for your demo. I congratulate you on making a style on the MS and it certainly shows that you have a good grasp of style making. Please dont take the following words as a put down because i am not trying to do that and i am not trying to be condescending. You cant hear my tone of language over the internet :-) .

The pop style you produced could have been done on any arranger and may in fact have sounded even better on a standard arranger because :

1.It would not have used just GM sounds in the style
2: They sounds would have been more evenly balanced because the instruments have a basic but general EQ setting.

What your demo showed very clearly is that your efforts on the MS yeilded no better results than what you could have produced on any entry level arranger with your skill level.

And for those of you who have truly bought into the open system argument. have a look at Magic afa's file on esnips. In the true spirit of openess he posted a link to some of his work (i believe) here is the link to his work if you missed it. If it isnt his work my apologies in advance
http://www.esnips.com/doc/bb348397-9c88-497d-972c-622f500b6f07/Lionstracs280808

I dont think Magic alpha has aproblem wiyth me drawing your attention to his work as it in openly available on his esnips folder.

I believe he is an experienced MS user. He understands the technicalities of using the instrument etc so no excuses in terms of ability to use the instrument. Have a listen and then honestly ask yourself these simple questions :

1. forget the possibilities....does this sound like a top of the line arranger/keyboard ? Be honest!
2. Does it sound as good or better than the instrument you currently have....what ever instrument that is.
3. Could you reproduce these styles yourself on a basic entry level arranger?

I repeat i am not trying to put you Down Magic alfa. There is nothing personal intended here. The point i am making is that great styles (yamaha level, korg level etc) dont just fall out of the sky. They have to be crafted and making the argument (from Liontracs point of view) that having access to better sounds will automatically mean having the ability to create better styles is just not true. Its not just me making the point, with respect ,your demo's make the point. Enjoy whatever ever you play and please keep making styles and have fun with your instrument. It was very open and honest of you to share your work . Once again thanks.


[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 02-17-2009).]

Dear Spalding,


First thanks for your post here.

If said something bad than my deep, deep apologies. I know that all keyboards are good. Yes styles and soundest selecting take a lot of time and devotion.

But what I want to tell you that I used style with my GM GIGA sounds (exchangeable) and nothing else. When I use all this great tools like VST and compatibile tools, than is this power, power machine.

That is all the time my point of view.

Best regards.
Magica Alfa

i listened to all your demos Magic Alpha including the ones where you have used VST guitars and the B3 organ. I wish the theory of having access to better sounds= better styles was true but clearly this is not he case.

You have never said anything bad as far as i am aware sir. You are just enthusiastic about your instrument. I cant blame you for that ! I love my PA1X more every day and the only additional content i have bought is the excellent Prodata pianos. all the other sounds and styles i have onboard came absolutely free. only my imagination limits me and that expands not by buying more keyboards or more sounds but simply by playing music and listening to more music. My skills are geting beter and my familiarity with the instrument i use is getting so much better. Neither Korg , yamaha or roland and now eben the latest Ketron Offering has tempted me sufficiently to immediately by another instrument. Thats not to say i wont ever be tempted thouigh...... :-) Good luck mate.

With the high quality sound of most top end arranger companies today........switching around, buying new KB's frequently is slowly becoming a thing of the past because they are all so close in quality, sound & features.....what is left is just personal needs & preference.....

Not everyone wants the same in an arranger/organ. (Just be thankful you have a diverse selection)
Most uses however that have tried an open keyboard for any length of time find it difficult to go back to a hardware board, mainly because they do not allow them to use the sounds and features that they get used to.
Are they for everybody, of course not, but then neither are hardware boards.
So choose what you are happy with, if others don’t like it or think its crap, so what, their not playing it.
The only point I would like to make is to go and try one before you make a decision. (If there are not many dealers in your area, you will always find plenty of owners around who would be happy to let you try it)(This applies to all boards)

Regards

Bill

Bill I think this post sums it up very nicely.....great insight & very true. next year when we all read these silly pissin' contests & all those kb's are old hat we'll get a big laugh for sure...think I'm kidding?.....do a search on Kb's we talked about 5 years ago or beyond....eg:

http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/000148.html
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/000145.html
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/000175.html

YIKES another Diki?....

I leave you there to continue talk, talk and blame the MS..
Here we continue work and add the features request:


Yamaha style loader on Main MS arranger page to Live Styler is ready!
Now we start to mapping in realtimes the all keys function API for the full integration.
in some days here we can develope features that others need MONTHS and can only dreaming.

You can continue bad discuss here, I don't have the time to follow you.
Enjoy what you play

Dom,
When a MS comes to the US that I can go see/play...let me know. I am interested.

Also, since I helped you go the full LS direction...how about a great price on one for me?

Lee

Lee..how can you be interested for one MS with the LS inside?
Diki told that Live styler sounds and work more crappy as the Casio!
Test first if LS can loading CASIO soundfonts and make Diki happy,then finally can full blame on Live styler too.

anyway, let me know what can right now the best soundfont XG to use, right now is working really fine with the GIGA sounbank available on MS.
If we can find some netter under XG will help a lot for some missing XG sounds.

For the offer don't worry...let me first complete this new features.

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 02-17-2009).]

Domenic....how about the new 61 key model you said a few months ago that you were working on.... any news?

Dom... that screenshot sounded SO good...

That's the problem, you know. You keep posting screenshots, and we keep asking for musical demos. No offense, Magic, but if this is the best you can come up with in three years of trying, who HAS got the time to make the MS work well..? I know I don't have three years to spare before I could go out and gig on one, and to be honest, if that's what it sounded like after three years, I wouldn't gig with it anyway! (I don't think Fran takes his out, does he?)

C'mon, everybody who has an MS.... Who gigs with theirs as an arranger? I bet most of you just use B4, a Giga piano and the like over another arranger!

It doesn't matter if the MS has 200 or 400 or 1000 styles aboard. It matters if any of them are better styles that you get in a T3, or a PA2, etc.. And, from what I've heard, damn few are, if any. Listening to Dom call an arranger a 'glorified karaoke machine' just basically points out how clueless he is as to what an arranger IS. Not to mention that he actually MAKES an arranger...! Not much respect for his own product, eh?

Do you know what an arranger without good styles or sounds actually is?

IT'S A WORKSTATION... Circa 1996.

Since then, even WS's have had high quality grooves and loops and arps included, OOTB. But not the MS. So, by modern standards, it ain't an arranger, it ain't a WS... Just what the hell IS it?

Dear Diki,

This song that i show you are nothing what can come out of MS. But because I want to start one level higher nobody understand me nothing. Than I come with simple solution of style and than also you did not understand point. And than something between but also that is not your style.

Diki here are possible a lot of things, but you need to ask me what you want to hear.
Which type of music? Believe me I know many styles to play. Even if I look on your work I can say: that is not arranger G70 here is voice and guitar etc. but that was not point of discuses with you about what is possible to come out from G70. I know that also you can make something better on your G70 only depend if you need to do.

And finally I play with my MS from start on gigs you can ask other guys who know me. And I can tell you that better sounds than I have on this keyboard I had never on any kind of them. It is true that I do not need so many styles as you. But I have 15 good for my region and that is enough. End if you are playing all night with styles than you are really . . . ( I will not say the word)

But it is nice to talk with you, because you need more and more and with that I'm every day better.

Well, Dom,
In this case (if he said what you said he said) Diki has not done his homework (no offense intended Diki)!

I have LS here and I use 1 of two sound sources for the accomanyment. A real Yamaha QY100 and the Yamaha XG softsynth. LS is not the problem with the sounds...it is only the sounds source! It's not LS that has any problem I assure you. LS does not have any sounds!

I also have used it with the sounds in the Korg PA2...WORKS SUPER. Sounds great.
I have used it with EMU Emulator X studio also with VSTi...works super there too.

A superb XG sound set using a high quality sound source is needed to sound as good as a Tyros. A Tyros rack module would be great! :-)
I have used LS with all my sound sources here...Korg PA, QY100, Kurzweil K2600X, Kurzweil PC2R, Emulator X Studio, Tyros 2.

The QY100 actually provides a pretty good XG sound set...quality is moderate. Too bad the idiots at Yamaha did not provide XG sound set in the Motif Rack (they seem to hold on to it for everyting else)..that would be a killer with LS.

Now with the new version..LS can use a real Ketron SD-2 for sounds and play Ketron styles as well. I am looking for a good used, cheap SD-2 to try this all out.

To make the Yamaha styles really sound great we need a full T2 XG and Mega-Voice sound source. (Maybe just put a T2 behind the wall?) :-)

If you could do the integration perfectly and creat the sound source I just described...it would help sell MS. Big Time!IMHO.

Or...you can just spend $200,000 and 5 years getting great styles written for MS?

Lee

This post is starting to sound like Diki's personall vendetta against Media station...

We all agree that mediastation isn't everyone's arranger, its meant for creative people that like to make their own music and "styles" and not for people that want an easy out of the box arranger that they can use on the stage without thinking and planning...

Its for creative musiccians that wanna create new things and not for copy cats that just play music others have written.

No offence, but just accept that there are people that want other things in an instrument then you do.

Mediastation has :

-Great sounds (espescially with VSt's)
-Awesome tools to create new things.
-Flexibillity beyound your dreams.

Nothing wrong with that for a creative mind is it?

And yes it is a "Work"-station, the "ultimate" workstation that actually sets an open standard that yamaha and others can't live up to as they want to sell you a new arranger every three years, where MS will atleast have a lifecycle of 15 years.

I test also LS with some VST goot choice is from Soundcanves, XG softsynth, if you want you can connect that to NI Kontakt or MASSIVE or BAND STAND.

Simple question, never answered.

Where, oh where, is all this creative music the MS is supposed to be perfect for? Lionstracs themselves seem unable to produce any. No owner I have heard so far has any. Every user demo, and most of the factory ones I have heard would embarrass even a novice T3 (or and other Big3 TOTL) player. ..

How long do I have to hear excuses and evasion, when simply a great piece of MUSIC would shut this thread up once and for all... "I deliberately played bad so you could understand the features"... Really? Is this what you are trying to pass on us now? One would have thought "This is the best I can possibly make on it" would have sold a few more, but I guess you can't blame them if this IS the best it can do...

Guys, guys, guys... ask yourself ONE question. If the Audya demos sounded as bad as most of the MS's, would we even CARE whether the audio loops worked well or not? One thing is for certain. i HAVE heard great music played on an Audya. I am STILL waiting to hear any done on the MS... It's been out three years already.... What's the holdup?

Put an Audya in my hands, I'll be gigging tomorrow. Put an MS in my hands (or anyone else's, from what I've heard), I guess I'll let you know in a few years..

Well put Diki !