http://www.onemusician.com/

I'm checking out this web site which looks promising upfront. A chance to hear what one of the "cruise ship" OMB's sounds like.

"You only need One Musician to have the sound of an Orchestra"

I downloaded: Mony Mony...Those Were the Days...Stand By Me.

I almost fell out out of my chair when I listened to them.

I'm really interested in hearing from some of you your overall impression of his act. Tell me what YOU think of his playing separate from his rapport with the audience. Does it deliver what it promises?...

"You only need One Musician to have the sound of an Orchestra"

Listening to this fellow play has certainly changed my perception of today's performers!

What do YOU think?

Lucky

I didn't really care for it...

Someone should teach the guy the proper changes to Piano man...



------------------
Bill in Dayton

As the saying goes, “You had better keep your daytime job”.

Voice on a scale from 1 to 10 is 4.

Piano playing in the lounge is about the same. But—he writing about himself is superb.

I don’t normally like to pan a performer but it gets tiring listening to people pass themselves as a OMB that do not make the grade.

Kind of harsh, sorry, John C.

You think HE's bad, I almost lost my breakfast listening to his partner do 'RESPECT'. Atrocious. Even a chicken hat wouldn't help those two.

chas

Wow, you guys should be ashamed of yourselves.
First, more power to anyone who wants to make music.
Second, the fact that people are singing along with his cruise ship gig means that they are being entertained, which is the idea, correct?
Third (and most important) there is always at least one person out there that can put your playing and singing to shame. Would you like them to come forward publicly with their opinion of you, especially if you didn't ask for it?

Sorry to be harsh, but come on...it's Christmas. Granted it appears that he is Jewish, so Happy Hanukkah if that's the case.

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

GEEEZ OHHHHH MAN!!!!! Look if I'm paying good money on a cruise I expect a decent musical act. That rendention of RESPECT.., was nothing but DISRESPECT to the song itself.

Sorry, but sometimes I hear so called pro musician's but can't understand how some continue to book gigs. Maybe this couple is acceptable to some here.., but IMO I would complain the cruise company if this was the musical act on a cruise I paid good money for. I know sometimes we accept that a performance on a cruise might be mediocre, but these two IMO don't even reach mediocre.....

I guess you'd have to be there to understand...


R.

I should have been more thorough in my response. Yes, of course I give the credit for "being in the game." Any musician, who is out there in front of audiences, especially paying ones, deserves some measure of respect. A charming personality can enhance an otherwise mediocre performance easily.

Musically, it just left me cold...

Kb wise, his playing is ok...I took issue with Piano Man because its virtually an archtype pop song. Any performer who dares cover that tune, IMO had better be able to play it very closely to the original feel and chord structure. Yes, the right artist could take it way out the h*ll to left field somewhere and pull it off, but this isn't the case, IMO...

The Mony, Mony thing with its audience lyrics, even though they're indicated as x rated, IMO should never have been put on the website as a demo...

The tunes with the backing tracks were ok from a kb sense...Middle of the road caliber, but the vocals, I think could use some direction.

I would also change some of the text on his homepage, especially the line about"...Some of the ceremonies I've played have sounded so beautiful that even I cry !"

His remark about DJ's also, IMO, doesn't reflect very well on him either. There are DJ's who put on a helluva show, are gifted hosts and are just as tuned into their clients needs as any musician is.

There's some talent there. Obviously adept at successfully marketing cruise ships or agencies, in what I've always understood to be a pretty competitive gig. If what's he's doing is working to both his clients and his needs...then, who cares?

------------------
Bill in Dayton


[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 12-19-2008).]

They are not terrible but they are not great either. I have heard worse. They're passable for drunks and those people are definitely drunk. For the arranger songs, his accompaniment has no punch, it's lifeless.

No, I don't think they are cruise ship quality. Then again, I've only been on one cruise.

Remind me to never do a "gig"... LOL!

Dave Rice

I give the guy credit for getting a cruise gig and supposedly for playing commercially in his area. The website is a good start, BUT his choice od demo music leaves much to be desired. It might be better if he recorded his piano bar stuff straight from the mixer. His keyboard sounds leave me wanting; the patches are not great; here is a situation where maybe a better keyboard might help.

I think when you put yourself out there for the public to hear, you have to live or die by what you make available. I know my site suffers from a lack of good pictures. I think this site suffers from a lack of more polished recordings.

------------------
Cass
Lovin' my G70 and XK-1

Thanx for sharing I can see why they are playing on cruise ships for sure.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-19-2008).]

Having a live musician is so much more entertaining then a DJ.

"then" a DJ? Wow, wonder how much he paid the English teacher to proof his website?

Also, on the ceremony demos, would someone here please tell me which of the demos showcased his flute? HE claims there's flute on there.

I call this KARAOKE, and the two Elvis clips downloaded and lend a ear to did not make me
wanna dance or go for a cruice ....
GJ

True that when you go public, you open yourself up to critique, both good and bad. What kind of bothers me in the initial posts is instead of constructive criticism , it was "this guy and gal stink!"

This forum is for people to share information on product use, tips, etc. and suggestions on how to improve what you do. Wouldn't it be nicer to maybe e-mail the guy with some useful suggestions such as those mentioned by Bill and Cass rather than blasting him. BTW, I find it interesting that the real constructive criticism came from the only two members that have actually have websites and offer demos of there material.

OK, I'm jumping off my high horse now. Don't mean to offend anyone. Maybe it's the stress of the economy, lack of gigs, and lack of sleep getting to me.

Best Regards and Merry Christmas!

Dave

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

I sincerely believe the only thing wrong is the samples he provided. Essentially, it's live recordings from a piano bar, which are marginal at best. The guy is probably very talented, a mediocre player, but a good entertainer. I seriously doubt that he books many jobs from his website, which was my experience as well. Hey, he has a job as an entertainer on a cruise ship, which for some zoners has been one of their fantasies. He's probably making a good living, having lots of fun entertaining cruise ship, piano-bar patrons, and doing what he wants to do. He obviously interacts with his audience and they too seem to be having fun.

As for the song Piano Man he performed, most comments are correct, it's not even close. On the flip side, I get requests for Piano Man all the time, mostly from younger audience members and I just will not do the song. It's boring as hell, long, and did I mention it was boring as hell? Oh well, he kept the piano bar drunks happy and entertained, and that's what he is paid to do.

Gary

Me at the mic
Me at the piano (.wmv format)
Me at the piano (quick time format)

Critique away.

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

i've heard many people like this do the gigs i would kill for. they must have the personality to sell it despite their lack of musical talent. when you play in public ,you're gonna be judged. i would focus on trying to be the best i could. this sounds like a bad american idol audition. as always, there's two
types of music ... good and bad. one person's "bad "music is another's "good" music. that's what makes this business of music so great to be a part of. i wonder if they have references? or is this a web designer's joke.

Yeah, the only way to get through the whole tune is to be half plastered. And I don't really drink like that so I avoid the song. Something to consider regarding his rendition; maybe he is doing the 'oom pa pa' piano part to keep the drunks singing along in time. Maybe this guy is smarter than he is given credit for. hmm!?!

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

If I had your talent I'd quit my day job

This isn't too bad, Dave...you are definitely better than the guy referred to in the thread.

Ian

Hi All
My musical partner Midge - Keyboardcapers - has discovered a place where you can set up your own web site(s) completely free of any charge - see example http://www.divasndisco.synthasite.com/
Just go to www.synthasite.com and take it from there.
Rog

The guy is a working musician whether or not some like what he does or not. Someone is paying him. I will tell you this having spend 6 months on a cruise ship in a headlining show., The lounge players as well as ALL the entertainment is judged by the patrons on comment cards and those cards mean a ton to whether you keep a job whether on the Main Stage or on the Poop deck for happy hour. People love rating things.

If the people like him thats all that matters.In the end its not the opinions of fellow musicians, better musicians, or virtuoso musicians that matter. ONLY the audience. Apparently this guy makes a living doing what he does so in my book he is far ahead of many who may play better by a huge margin but still are forced to work day jobs for their living frustrated at those who can and do despite their supposed inferiority.

LOL.....The audience don't care if he is playing the "proper chord changes" to a particular song!They don;t even "listen", they sing along with the melody.

The general public is so dumbed down it has opened a lot of doors for those who did not put in years of work to earn a living...some using Arranger keyboards, other's being karaoke DJs.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 12-19-2008).]

I've seen formidably mediocre players hold their audience spellbound, and technically proficient musicians turn an audience off completely...so it's not always musical technique that is working, but just how effective the player/performer/entertainer is at connecting.

-

[This message has been edited by chony (edited 12-19-2008).]

There you go, endearing yourself to the members of this board again . The fact that I agree with you (sort of) also doesn't help your cause .

chas

You guys can rationalize all you want, BAD IS BAD.

chas

It's not "rationalization", my friend, it is reality...remember, we are playing for the "common ear" not our musician buddies or SZ members.

I'll bet it's not a top of the line cruise ship like we are thinking of. It's probably one of those two hour site seeing cruises. that leaves from Podunk goes around the island and back. And sometimes includes lunch.

Show off !!! Seriously, Dave this is good stuff. Thanks for sharing.

Well, I've never had so much interest in my website since I put it up 10 years ago. First I would like to thank the level headed people that understand that playing music is a job like any other and making the customer happy is the bottom line. To the one guy who felt compelled to Email me directly (steve pellegrino paradisesteve@comcast.net)and ask me what ship I am going to be on so he can avoid it - It's too late, I will be appearing on the ship of fools and clearly you are a permanent passenger. As far as the quality of the demos. One particular night the ship (carnival cruise lines) decided to videotape my "performance". I recorded the music off the video into my computer and threw it up on the site, many years later I added some more "demos" that I did sitting at my desk with a microphone plugged into my sound card. I think I spent a total of 3-4 hours putting up the site. To those of you who listen and play music in order to be as close to the original composer as possible "Kudos" to you. My focus on the ship was to make as much in tips as I could every nite and if I had to play Pianoman 47 times (which is what it felt like) so what, my tip jar was always full! and I got laid a lot. I don't do many gigs anymore and definatley not with equipment. I get paid a lot more to fix computers/networks and telephone systems and carry a lot less. It seems to me, with the exception of those posters who recognize that it is what it is, that many of you are full of yourselves and yet can't manage to get your shit together, so you waste your time lambasting others. Finally, for all those that are so interested in what I am doing musically, I sent those same demo files to an agency and booked new years from 7-9PM for $600 on Acoustic piano. Are you working? Merry Christmas to all and my Holiday Gift is (if you don't already know about it)Pandora.com and seeqpod.com check them out 2 great sites. Thanks again for all the attention, I'm flattered. P.S. Thank you Jack for the heads up and best wishes to you and yours.

Dave-I play ALL of the songs on your demo as often as possible. Moondance, You Made Me So Very Happy and God Bless The Child are some of my very vavorites. Loved old Blood Sweat and Tears and Chicago.

Cool stuff!


Russ

What I read was:
“I was shocked when I heard this. Tell me what you think”.

And then the blows start and a bit personal. The answer to the question asked is still the same, the music and voice in my opinion does not make it. This is not to say the man is not a good person or that his ability to book a job is no good --- or any other negative remark to the performer.

It is just an answer to the question asked.

John C.

Like I Care,

Good response to the above posts. I stand by my post, and still don't play Pianoman, but that's probably because I no longer rely on tips for part of my income. And, welcome to the Synthzone insane asylum.

Gary

One two cha cha cha.

Steve, glad you got to the site to defend yourself. Merry Christmas

Jack

I liked David's demos - good clear voice, and his playing in his solo video was choice!

I think we've got our usual mix of honest criticism and extraordinary bluntness here - nothing new.

Here finally is our video demo:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=IYnaVpo_8-w&fmt=18

It's Youtube quality.... our DVD demo has MUCH better Video quality and sound sync....but you get the idea.

I'm interested in a constructive critique, though if I get the "other kind" I'm quite strong enough to deal with that these days too.

Wow! Gotta watch what you say around here - Nigel has a a popular site

I don't have a "cause." I'm not selling anything. LOL I tell it like I see it. I have no issue with ANYONE who can make a living with their music no matter how badly it is critiqued by other musicians. It's nice to be recognized by one's peers, but that's about it, but they don't write the checks. They aren't buying the CDs.

I am sure glad you had a chance to read this thread and not allow it to discourage you. But then again you were and are actually working for good money.

Having worked Cruise ships (RCL and Premiere) I also know you won't last long if those comment cards aren't favorable whether you are in the main room or the lounge. I am sure you represent yourself far better then some here would guess in their haste to ridicule and critique. Good Luck to you. But I don;t think you will need it.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 12-19-2008).]

Big Ditto !

Here’s what led up to me presenting this topic…..

For the last few weeks I’ve been observing the mediocrity and gradual demise of music as we know and experienced it years ago. There are those who say it’s just music in another form…I say it’s not music even in it’s death throes! Then they say “the same thing was said about rock & roll and that came to be accepted!” And every genre that came out after that was invited into the inner circle. Up until the nineties when music took a nosedive. What we’re hearing now is “tolerated” at best. It may be “accepted” thought it won’t be as music but rather as a replacement for music.

Back to my story:

It started with watching these awful, awful, AWFUL bands that the late night talk show hosts present to their audience to stay connected to their teenage fans. I’m at my desk at night multitasking (working and watching). Here’s what I observe with most of these groups:

The lyrics of their songs I wouldn’t present to my psychiatrist….they’d drive even HIM up a wall.
They sing sounding like they have chronic colitis.
Women dressed as if they buy their clothes at the Salvation Army or else going to the Vampire Ball.
The guitar kings never look up at their audience instead burying their heads somewhere between the strings.
The rap heroes flash their hand gestures like street gang members and strutting their stuff up and down the stage deluding themselves about how good they are.
Most of the bands so hyper my guess is instead of a Johnny Walker before the show, they took massive amount of Viagra!

Back to my story:

Thursday I stopped in to a music store to try out a baby grand (I have a love affair with pianos). I’m talking to the salesman who turns out to be an ex-working pro. He told me pianos are the next instrument to take a hit. No one buys them for their kids anymore to learn music on. Instead, he said they buy them Casio’s and then get angry and frustrated at their children for “not being able to learn properly (on the Casio)!”

Later that night I go on the Internet and see this gentleman’s promise of hearing what one man can do to sound like an orchestra. And I’m foaming at the mouth to hear what a working pro does to entertain on a cruise ship? After listening, that was it for me. I recognized at that point the bar had been lowered. That no one actually plays music anymore. Musical craftsmen have vanished from the face of the Earth. I’m feeling isolated!

Lucky

“…more power to anyone who wants to make music”

Dave...a fine pianist like yourself? You’re the last person I’d expect to hear say that! You’re not actually referring to this as music? I’ve heard civil rights demonstrations more musical than this!

"...the fact that people are singing along with his cruise ship gig means that they are being entertained, which is the idea, correct?”

Yes, you're correct but they’re a captive audience, aren't they. I’d bet the rent that if they had a choice between attending an Andre Riu concert and this piano bar routine even the most musically oblivious would know what route to take.

“Would you like them to come forward publicly with their opinion of you, especially if you didn't ask for it?”

Yes, yes and yes! You don’t grow without suffering pain and if the pain comes from criticism, so be it! Tchaikovsky had his share and I believe he would never have left behind such beautiful music without it.

Where’s the incentive to improve yourself if everyone accepts you at street level? Remember everything in life has to keep moving. Where does music go from street level? There’s nothing below that!

Lucky

I think it would be even nicer if we emailed and posted to each other (some useful suggestions). In all the time, I've been on this site, I have yet to hear anyone talk about "playing"....what ideas they have in arranging a song, producing keyboard sounds, how they practice, do they practice?, etc

Still trying to figure out why that is?

Lucky

Whatever was popular with our generation (whichever it is!) when we were kids was as equally excoriated by our parent's or grandparents (ESPECIALLY our grandparents ) at the time...

I'm sorry, but unless you CAN produce music that sounds identical to what the kids are doing (never heard ANY here, that's for sure ), you are in no better position to criticize than your grandparents were back then! I don't imagine YOU had much respect for their scathing opinion of Led Zeppelin, or the Beatles, or even Bing Crosby (who was panned badly by earlier generations not into that newfangled 'crooning' ).

I thought WE were the generation that was NEVER going to become like our parents! But, I guess EVERY generation says that when they are young!

Just be grateful that the current generation is NOT as focused on learning to play keyboards... I can't think of a single player under the age of thirty or so playing professionally in my area. More gigs for me! I know my father's generation's keyboard players were NOT happy when I took their gigs away Guess it served them right for ignoring the current crop (at the time) of pop hits, and refusing to mess with those newfangled synthesizers!

Try to remember them burning Elvis's records, before you get too harsh about today's crop of pop...

What goes around, keeps going around!

Somewhere along the way you have to take a stand, reverse this "dumbing down" syndrome, and give back to the system that gave to you. Entertainers and others in the public eye say they are just reflecting what people are all about. I say those of us who were given talent to lead others should lead them in a positive direction, not bring them down even further. Re-introduce them to quality music..it's what we need more of these days to help many folks cope.

Lucky

I never saw how 'A wop bop a loo bop, a lop bam boo!' was exactly leading THAT generation forward musically OR linguistically Or 'Inna gada da vida', or 'Yummy, yummy, yummy, I've got love in my tummy'!

Personally, I don't see THAT much 'dumbing down'...

I reckon we were pretty much all dumb to start with! The kids merely have a different way of expressing that 'dumbness'

'Hope I die before I get old'....

Like I Care…

I think that you DO care or you wouldn’t have taken the time out to sign up here and write what you did!

Now you’re probably a very nice fellow, but you should be ashamed of yourself advertising like this. First and foremost, this type of musical presentation does a disservice to true OMB’s. When I also became a DJ in the 90‘s, in the transition period from live music to canned, what I heard repeatedly from my new DJ clients was how live musicians “don’t cut it anymore.” Listening to your demo’s, I can understand them saying that. If you’re going to do what you do, I have no problem with that. Just don’t advertise yourself the way you do…..one person producing the “sound of an orchestra!”

You wrote: “My focus on the ship was to make as much in tips as I could.”

I have no problem with that either, but please, have a little class about it. When I lived in Europe, I busked in the streets! I played for long lines of people at the Tower of London with a tin cup attached to my accordion. I did the same in Petticoat Lane on a Sunday. I had the same goal…make as much in tips as I could. But I did it with class. I played Strauss waltzes, military marches, polkas, and even the William Tell Overture. I introduced them to music they don’t normally hear or music that they could relate to. I walked away each time many dollars richer but even richer in knowing that I enriched the lives of others. (Plus......I got &*^% a lot too!)

You wrote: “…for all those that are so interested in what I am doing musically, I sent those same demo files to an agency and booked new years from 7-9PM for $600 on Acoustic piano.

Lucky requests: the phone # of the agent who is paying you $600 to play piano for two hours based on your demo’s. a) I want to contact him to see if he realizes what he did, and b) quite frankly, I don’t believe that. But I’m willing to reverse my non-believer status and eat humble pie if this is true!

But, as I said previously, you seem like a very nice fellow just out to earn a buck, so I’ll wish you and yours a Merry Christmas back.

I have one more posting to do about this.

Lucky

In all fairness to "Like I Care," my beef was more with his audience than with his act. After all, he IS earning a living and apparently having fun at the same time.

Most of you know by now I've been totally frustrated in buying a new board for myself. Can you imagine how I felt when I saw what kind of music people were responding to these days. That put the nail in the coffin for me and a new kb for now. I should have known this as the listening public has tolerated me with my 10 year old Roland (celebrating it's 11th birthday next month).

Time to retire?

Lucky

Yes, Diki, every generation of new music was initially rejected. But in the long run, it eventually became accepted because it was STILL music.

Of course, the big Labonza of an example of the musical revolution was R&R in the 50's (and Ed S. only allowing Elvis to be seen from the waist up). Looking back over our shoulders, we see now what we didn't see then. Although R&R was the new kid on the block, there was still melody in the music and still a "beat," only a different beat now. And what makes it even more interesting is these guys made great music and thousands of songs with simple standard 3-4 chord progressions.

Now here's the proof that today's music is not accepted and probably never will be. I still stay in touch with the DJ world. Every 7 days I go to the Billboard site and enter the names of the latest tunes into my database. Been doing this for years. The one thing that stands out is how a new song can land on the charts in the Top 10 overnight, and be completely gone again in a few weeks. High School Musical was the hottest album for all of last summer for the kids I work with. This year it was High School Musical 2 and that didn't even last to the end of the summer before it was forgotten.

These kids today don't remember a song from 2 weeks ago, Britney Spears is completely out of the loop together with Justin Timerlake and the Backstreet Boys, etc.

Compare that with folks today who are still remembering and singing 50's songs. 'cause it was music!

These late nights are killing me!

BTW.....what does "excoriated" mean?

Lucky

Same old confusing musical ability with entertainment...

If "Like I care" thought acting like a jerk was a requirement for membership, I'd understand totally.

The question was legit I suppose, but the dis-respect you are showing this guy is rude. For a player who has shared "Strauss waltzes, military marches, polkas, and even the William Tell Overture" with the masses, I'd expect a different approach.

I understand your frustration with the current edition of the musical world as we find it.

I do not know you, but I'm guessing you are older than I. (I'm 48) You have seen & heard things I have not. The young man who is the subject of this thread seems quite comfortable in his own musical skin and beyond that, who really cares? So what if he's making $$$$ on NYE? I know of good musicians making less that night...I know of good musicians making more that night...What we make or don't make on NYE is a clear indication of only what you'll deposit in the bank later on...

I'm reading large amounts of frustration that are probably coming out in unintended ways. The great music is still there, trust me. A gentleman with the musical tastes you have shouldn't be shaken by the new music out there. One of my favorites, George Gershwin, was disrespected back in the day. Even with his tragically short career, his music, once regarded as trash...certainly lives on, right?

A suggestion...find yourself a recording of Claire De Lune and listen to it 3-4 times in a row...

Trust me, you'll feel better afterwards...



------------------
Bill in Dayton

hellboy44,
Nice Demo ! I see that Bose in the background.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-Ox9utcxmw

Personally, I like this tune better...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4Sfl1ovc_0&feature=related

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 12-20-2008).]

If we agree music is a form of communication, them it must conform to the basic definition of communication.

To have communication, you must have three things.

1) A sender
2) A receiver
3) A message

If you don't have all three, its not "communication" as we understand it.

If we take my example of Debussy's masterpiece and play it for 150 teens in a punk club, they're not going to fall on their knees and begin to weep for the sheer beauty of it. (As the father of 3 teens, take my word on this, ok?) The kids in that club aren't typically tuned into the same frequency someone who like the classics. IOW, they may hear it, but they're not listening..

You/I/We can collectively all wish the world had different musical sensibilities, but for any of us to "decide" what the "positive direction" musically is, isn't our place.

For some, musical beauty is found in the works of the Classics...some find it in the blues...some find it in Broadway scores and so on.

I think, to try and reverse the dumbing down as some call it, it a fool's errand with only frustration at the end of the quest...

------------------
Bill in Dayton


[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 12-20-2008).]

Ian-

Muppets rock!




------------------
Bill in Dayton

They sure do...always give me a lift.

And for the jazzers, they can groove as well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DfGHBO2omw&feature=related

You said it all. I dislike Hiphop and Rap but those are the genres that are getting all the "awards from the music industry." No generation was generally in love with heir kids music. The whole idea is to "rebel" against the generation previous and that means dressing and listening to music that is not only different but despised.

That's life. Few are making a living writing and performing symphonies. Many are writing and performing songs using prerecorded loops
and arrangements. It's all good to someone or millions of someones whether I like it or not.

Most working musicians making their living here in Myrtle Beach by a HUGE margin are over 45 because the clientèle who visits wants to hear the music of their peer group.

You cannot "force your art and culture" on anyone. Quality music is in the "ear of the beholder" not the creator. You can play Gershwin, Brubeck, Mozart, Kahn all day long but those days have passed and unless you are playing what YOUR audience wants to hear they will not pay to hear you and or go away not liking your work no matter how many years you studied or Music degrees one has.

I loved Jon Lord in Deep Purple. I cannot stomach his work very long today.

I understand that some of you guys aren't into these more modern styles of music. However..., arranger keyboards will continue to have the negative stereotypes they have now unless the makers start updating these styles.... The reason the younger generation goes to the workstation is because "it's up to date". Modern styles on an arranger are totally different than the modern patterns and grooves on a workstation.. The workstation is more in touch with that.

Look at it like this... We get all these great arrangers that are "region specific" such as the new GW-8 by Roland. There are several versions of this keyboard..., they all have an "extra" area of sounds and styles that are tailored to the region.

Why can't arranger makers take the same approach with "modern styles". Why not (along with all the traditional styles) include a section of more modern styles. Look.., realistically no one is going to produce a number one hit rap album using an arranger keyboard..., however you'd be surprised how the songs you guys play now using traditional styles would sound if you spiced them up a bit with a more modern groove. Hip Hop isn't all record scratching, bass, vocal hits, ect... I've heard some kick ass jazz grooves played using hip hop tracks. I watched a guy about a year ago use a Korg PA-80 (wrote his own style) and played a Hip Hop version of a BeBop style.., and man was it good!

The limitations are really within the player IMO.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-20-2008).]

I agree completely, squeak...

It's the CONTENT, not the technology. An arranger loaded with as contemporary loops and sounds as say a MotifXS would, IMO, sell FAR better than the MoXS itself, simply because of the easier interface that arrangers have.

But because of the balkanization of keyboard lines, we get the better interface and the dated styles and sounds, and they get the cutting edge stuff but can't control it as easily... NO-ONE WINS!

Give me a MoXS with a T3 front end, I could make some hits on TODAY'S charts!

BTW, before you go overboard about the volatility of today's chart music, you have to understand the the music business is working on revenues that are close to 20% of what they were pre-Napster. There is no money for developing artists, and no way to promote artists the way that it USED to be done (and resulted in long-term hits and careers). And so, just like every other form of communication and commerce in the Internet Age, things move at a MUCH faster pace.

Food for thought...

Hey BBB, and Mike (and Eddie!) thanks for your kind words - much appreciated.

Yes we often put the Bose slightly in front of us, or to the side, or anywhere we like (within reason) when the stage cannot accommodate the "classic position" i.e. when the stage isn't deep enough to put the PA behind us - about 85% of the time.

It doesn't really matter where you put it we've found - as long as it's not very far away, and as long as there is some elevation (say 2-3 feet) because if the Dancefloor is packed, you will have trouble re the sound being absorbed by many bodies if it's not slightly above the crowd.

When you stand in front of the Bose, it's very very special (wrapped in the sound - hearing essentially what the audience hears), when you're behind, it's not as "heavenly", but you can still hear everything pretty clearly, especially vocals - more than any conventional PA we've ever used - no monitor required.

In other words, we're not afraid to place the Bose just about anywhere (within reason) at any gig, at any time.

Never heard it called an "acoustic piano" before....

Gotta' agree! I've positioned it just about everywhere you can (within reason) and the results have always been excellent to outstanding.

Gary

Lets stay on topic here shall we?

This act is working...& I give them props big time.


most of you people won't even post your "OWN" songs which speaks volumes & which are probably worse then anything heard here....but you still have the nerve to critique...Hmmmmm?....
people in glass houses?.... give me a break.

Hey!

Just replying to some questions by my fellow members which were, in turn, really responses to my demo which I posted, which is what you're talking about right now Donny.

Guess I just sold my Glass House........

Nice demo work, HB....

Good variety, especially...

------------------
Bill in Dayton

hellboy....that wasn't intended for you at all.....but in response to the topic post in general....I personally enjoyed your act on video......it's the naysayers that couldn't hold a candle to you or the cruise ship act that irks me .....I say before anybody critiques anyone else post some of their own work for credibility first!



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-21-2008).]

Oh! My apologies, and thanks for the kind words!

**

[This message has been edited by hellboy44 (edited 12-21-2008).]

So should we silence those highly-paid NY restaurant critics if they themselves are not master chefs? Must Siskel and Ebert (or whoever replaced them) prove themselves to be great actors or directors before being allowed to put pen to paper? I don't think so. I just think that they need to be able to distinguish between good and bad.

In fact, (some of) you guys amaze me. You're constantly hassling people to post music but then climb all over anybody who dares give it anything other than a glowing review. Hey, this guy wasn't even a SZ member but anytime you put something out there on YouTube or as a commercial ad, then as far as I'm concerned, it's fair game for public discussion. Some thought it was good, some thought it was passable, some (lke me) thought it was lousy (as a professional presentation). The original poster obviously thought it wasn't very good and wondered what we thought. But now we're told that by responding (honestly) to his inquiry, that we need to 'put up or shut up'.

Donny, I respect you as a person with enough ability to make a living as an entertainer, but you really need to shut this crap down. It's pretty obvious to all but the uh, 'slowest' here, that the only reason you keep harping on this is because you think your own material will 'show' better. I'm sure you're a fine entertainer, but musically, trust me, you're not top of the heap on this board. That's not a put-down, just a mini-intervention to keep you from returning to your old bullying ways. If you want to post, by all means post, just stop bugging the heck out of everybody else.

BTW, John C. was right on the money.

chas

Chas those food critics & movie idiots are mostly wrong btw ....well I guess were gonna argue even during Christmas week also so here it goes....

I'm not saying this because of what I personally play good or bad as it may be ....but as a general rule of thumb here on the SZ with all these so called experts purveying & spewing critique on anyone when they can't play their way out of a paper bag my friend or won't even post one single piece of music or always has some lame excuse is a joke...."Shut this crap down?" Sorry buddy but I'll stick to my ears for judging music thank you....walk the walk I say before anyone talks the talk...
nuff said.

Thank you

I'll duck & cover now as I'm used to the barrage of incoming flack after the last attack on me a few weeks ago.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-21-2008).]

Oh you poor baby. I can feel the tears welling up in my eyes as we speak.

chas

Chas thank you for caring your a true friend.

I now wish you & yours a very
Happy Holiday......enjoy.

Bill in Dayton:… the dis-respect you are showing this guy is rude. For a player who has shared "Strauss waltzes, military marches, polkas, and even the William Tell Overture" with the masses, I'd expect a different approach .

Lucky: I like to think of myself as outspoken, blunt, and a straight-shooter!. Besides, no one ever died from an overdose of “rude.” We’re all grown adults now. But, if you really want to see “rude,“ jump in your car and take a spin to where I live. The folks around here would put me to shame and make me sound like Little Lord Fauntleroy.

Bill in Dayton: I do not know you, but I'm guessing you are older than I. (I'm 48) You have seen & heard things I have not.

Lucky: Yes, Bill, I’m older than 48, and...a BIG yes...I have probably seen and heard things you have not.

Bill in Dayton: The young man who is the subject of this thread seems quite comfortable in his own musical skin and beyond that, who really cares? So what if he's making $$$$ on NYE? What we make or don't make on NYE is a clear indication of only what you'll deposit in the bank later on...

Lucky: This was not about whether he makes money or not at what he’s doing. My original question was simply: “Tell me what YOU think of his playing separate from his rapport with the audience?” Making music for delivering shoddy workmanship is fodder for another thread.

Lucky: Do you honestly believe he got hired for New Year’s Eve at $700 for two hours the instant he called an agent with his demo’s? Further, do you honestly believe everyone in this group tells the truth about their bookings?

Bill in Dayton: “A suggestion...find yourself a recording of Claire De Lune and listen to it 3-4 times in a row.”

Lucky: I’ll go with that, Bill. I do it regularly. “Music soothes the savage beast!”

Thanks for your post.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


Ianmcnll: “Personally, I like this tune better…”

Lucky: You got that one right. When all else fails, listen to a Muppet mega-mix melody.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Bill in Dayton: “You/I/We can collectively all wish the world had different musical sensibilities, but for any of us to "decide" what the "positive direction" musically is, isn't our place.
For some, musical beauty is found in the works of the Classics...some find it in the blues...some find it in Broadway scores and so on.
I think, to try and reverse the dumbing down as some call it, it a fool's errand with only frustration at the end of the quest...

Lucky: Bill, I’m sorry but I have to disagree here about trying to reverse the “dumbing down” effect. You can’t keep taking from the System. You need to put something back in. It’s like this: would you keep withdrawing your money from your bank account without re-depositing something? Surely not, or you would eventually be broke. The same with music. One needs to keep reintroducing “good” MUSIC (notice I capitalized it) to the general public as compared to “putting something together and going on a cruise ship and just building up your assets with tips!” That’s selfish.

Now look at Hellboy’s demo. THAT rocks! He’s also making money, but he’s giving back at the same time. They spent time practicing their instruments, they know how to play their instruments, they took the time to choose great tasty selections, memorized their words, and they’re having the same rapport with the audience. I call that UN-dumbing and “giving back to the System.”

Remember, I’ve also worked as a DJ for quite a few years. I’ve observed my audience as I play generational music. Contemporary music does nothing for them. But when I go to the 80’s and before, they start to come alive. This also is called UN-dumbing and we need to see more of this.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Kingfrog: “You cannot "force your art and culture" on anyone. Quality music is in the "ear of the beholder" not the creator. You can play Gershwin, Brubeck, Mozart, Kahn all day long but those days have passed and unless you are playing what YOUR audience wants to hear they will not pay to hear you and or go away not liking your work no matter how many years you studied or Music degrees one has.
I loved Jon Lord in Deep Purple. I cannot stomach his work very long today.”

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Lucky: You don’t “force” your art and culture” on anyone. You just “introduce” them to and “remind” them of the really great music in the world and leave the water to find it’s own mark.

I’ve been doing this grade school party for the last 12 years as a DJ. Every year I try to come up with new ideas for games. I decided this time to put together a medley of different dances (Fox Trot for warmup, a waltz, cha-cha, tango, merengue, Mexican Hat Dance, etc) and call it simply the “Dance Contest.” The kids use their parents as partners. I was a little apprehensive about doing it, but they hung onto it and didn’t let go for the whole 12 songs. I do this at many events now. If done right, it leaves everyone exhilarated (and tired).

I view my job as making people aware there was “real” music before R&B, rap, & Hip-Hop came along. Performing is not just about making money.

BTW: My own definition of music is anything heard where simultaneous sounds are produced in harmony and can interact naturally with the receptors in your brain, and that has enough of a melody you can hum it afterwards. Like someone said here...contemporary music is just a series of loops and words. It’s not music at all...it’s “noise!”

BTW 2: Jon is my original B-3 organ hero and Deep Purple on of my favorite bands. I’m still listening to Highway Star, Smoke on the Water, Flight of the Rat, I’m A Leo, Lazy, etc. Those guys put out an incredible sound. I saw DP in person at one of their shows in London.

Lucky

Donny....if I had to guess, my guess would be (taken from your own mouth) that they were hired because they were cheap…and willing to earn their money in the "tip jar."

But let me get the record straight here. I really have no problem with what someone is doing to make money. My problem is...don't make it any more difficult than it already is for us proper OMB's by advertising yourself in this way.

There was a time when all OMB's were so good that the purchaser knew he was getting quality. They used a lot of equipment and sang well. Unfortunately, over the years, OMB came to mean just about anyone who simply chooses to hang a shingle out whether they're proficient or not. You can be an organ-grinder with a monkey playing a scrub-board, and still consider yourself a OMB. I know I see a distinct difference in hiring practices now since the flood of “musically-deficient” OMB’s have flooded the arena. Many prospective employers now either want you to audition or play for nothing the first time, because……they’ve gotten burned too many times by the “musically-challenged!”

Lucky

Hellboy......that's one heck of a great demo you made. I'm really impressed. I can see that the two of you put a lot of effort and hard work into your act. I already said in another reply "great selections, great musicianship," and...it appears a great time had by all!

If you consider this as not "as good as it could be," I can't wait to see your "finished" product. Your videographer and web designer are Numero Uno's. This demo is the first one I can actually say inspires me to buy a new keyboard so I can do what you guys are doing with the pop classics.

You asked for a critique, but the only one I want to offer is: I think it would suit you to sing "Sway" in a higher key. Other than that, I really enjoyed watching the whole video. And tell your partner she did a great job on Blue Bayou. It's one of my favorite tunes, so I'd like to hear her sing the whole song. She has a good voice and you both have good rapport with your audience.

This thread brought out two new musical stars: Hellboy and David McMahan.

Lucky

Thanks everyone for your comments - I'll happily lap up the praise, and accept the criticisms.

Lucky, I do in fact have a lot of trouble with Sway (probably one of the reasons I do it in a "wacky" way. We do the Buble version (not Dino's) which has a key change towards the end, so it DOES get higher, and curiously enough I have trouble with that(!) I've even tried starting the song lower (!!)

My partner (Rose) is, I think it's obvious, the much stronger singer - I'm decent (and getting better) but she just puts me in the shade when she REALLY gets going.

After years of being in Bands (originals for me being the co-writer and drummer/percussionist) and the classic "lead singer" for Rose, we teamed up in 2001 and turned professional in 2004.
You're right, we both work hard, but in my case I (genuinely) think I'm not a naturally great musician, and I have to "Practice and plan" to make it look easy and get away with what standard I am at now - there's a lot of players AND singers out there as good or much better than me, I know that - but I'm honestly getting better every single gig.

I really have some big opinions on the topic discussed here, but I'll just say this relating to ourselves, and definitely music, and working "local entertainers" in General:

We've been fortunate enough to get a lot of work, and things are going great, but I don't really think it's so much WHAT we do, but HOW we do it.

Ok what I mean is this:

We really give a damn about what we do and still love doing it, and we really do feel privileged to be on stage and think that the audience deserves to "see some sweat" at a gig.

So many acts around our parts, (and perhaps around OTHER parts) don't seem to CARE about what they do. I think that's the main thing I see these days. I don't know about the whole "dumbing down of music" thing - I've heard plenty of bad songs of the 30's 40's era, absolute Pap in the 50's - self indulgent tripe in the 60's & 70's - PLEASE don't get me started about the 80's, and right up to today - as well as great songs from ALL those eras - yes including today. As I get a little older, and perform both old AND new songs, I find my taste getting WIDER, not narrower, and I appreciate just about any Genre (except for Metal and most of it's Sub Genres - Death, Thrash, Goth etc) and in the end, for me, it comes down to the performer and the song.

I think there's crap around today, but there was crap in EVERY era. I also think that it's too "early" to denounce today's music without some 20/20 Hindsight and time. "The good old days" didn't become "the good old days" right away, if you know what I mean.

Whilst I don't fully agree with Lucky's point of view, I understand (and agree with) his frustration at Acts that feel good enough is "good enough". I personally work my arse off because I really believe any minute now someone is going to tap me on the shoulder and say "Hey! What are YOU doing up here on stage?? Get off!" but I see a lot of acts who seem to think that they have a right to be there, hard working or not.

I have strong feelings about this, and I know not everyone shares what I think, but I'm pretty sure one of the first problems with music & performers of any era that aren't up to snuff can be traced back to a lack of love and passion for what they do.

Anyone agree?

Yep!

Gary

I agree.

chas

"Lucky: Bill, I’m sorry but I have to disagree here about trying to reverse the “dumbing down” effect. You can’t keep taking from the System. You need to put something back in. It’s like this: would you keep withdrawing your money from your bank account without re-depositing something? Surely not, or you would eventually be broke. The same with music. One needs to keep reintroducing “good” MUSIC (notice I capitalized it) to the general public as compared to “putting something together and going on a cruise ship and just building up your assets with tips!” That’s selfish."

Lucky, I took a day or so to ponder this.
You say we have give back, reintroduce good music, otherwise, the system will go broke...

Would you please, define for me this "system" you refer to?

Thanks-


------------------
Bill in Dayton

Excellent post Hellboy. Agree 100%

Dennis

Bill,

Sometimes I get a little "long-winded" and this is one of those times.

What I wrote in 10,000 words, Hellboy managed to sum it all up in a few sentences:

"we both work hard"

"I personally work my arse off...I see a lot of acts who seem to think that they have a right to be there, hard working or not."

"So many acts...don't seem to CARE about what they do."

In this case, giving back to the system, means (spiritually speaking and with a simplistic explanation) taking what you were given (musical talent), nurturing and working hard at what you were given, and afterwards giving it back to the "system" (people) after you've fully developed your talent, without concerning yourself with "what's in it for me?"

I need to tell you that many years ago, after having a very dramatic religious experience, I converted to Christianity and also got into Spirituality, Metaphysics, Science of the Mind, and, of course, religion.

In these circles, we talk a certain way and we understand each other (though it took me many years to learn how to do it). I tend to forgot NOT to talk that way in everyday life!

Lucky

Hellboy,

You certainly had me fooled. I thought you played that keyboard well particularly on the Jerry Lee Lewis licks.

I’m downloading the Buble version of Sway right now to listen to. I didn’t know there was one. I like the Dino version but also the Pussycat Dolls one.

If you feel you’re not at Rose’s level of singing yet, let me pass on the two statements (from singing teachers) that helped me the most.

a) singing is only speaking in pitch and with breath control

b) LISTEN to yourself sing

Though I’m a natural musician myself, it took me 15 years of lessons and hard work to learn to sing including practicing every day sitting alone in my car, but one day the penny dropped and I’m glad it’s all behind me now.

I could almost guess you are coming from the direction of being a percussionist. I noticed that in you as I was watching you play the keyboard…you definitely have rhythm in your licks.

Finally…..I always said a man is nothing without a woman in his life in some way, shape or form. They really bring us to life, don’t they?

Lucky

Lucky wrote: "...giving back to the system, means (spiritually speaking and with a simplistic explanation) taking what you were given (musical talent), nurturing and working hard at what you were given, and afterwards giving it back to the "system" (people) after you've fully developed your talent, without concerning yourself with "what's in it for me?"
______________________________________________

Lucky-Much to chew on in that statement...

...some random thoughts...

...some people can work their butts off practicing for hours a day and still not be very good. I think there's a place for people who love music, who don't have much talent but find a way to be entertaining to others.

...I know guys from my College days that were freakishly talented but became ill when it came to performing for audiences. They wanted no part of the "entertainment" end of things whatsoever...They wanted to work on their music, be left mostly alone and let the chips fall where they may...(I'd call these guys the "art-eests.")

...I do very few benefit performances. I collect a fee from all but two of my clients. Do you distinguish between those who perform for free out of some emotional motive and those who do so on a fee based agreement only?

...who has ever, "fully developed their talent?"

...My musical career, for the last, 14 years and for many of the last 30 years, has been all about me. I was not born into royalty and must earn a living while I'm on this world. Two decades ago I met a lovely young lady who is smarter than me and convinced her to marry me, (she did) and then to have children (we did). With the bliss from the now four women in my life, there also comes increased responsibility, duty and honor.

For me, I can't/won't be musical in a vacuum, so everything I do effects my loved ones. I think balance is critical in one's life and that too much of anything isn't good. I think selfishness can be a virtue, if it doesn't impede others ability to be "selfish" as well. I think many would say practical is a better word to use. Perhaps...

I don't imagine I'm breaking any new musical boundaries in my music...I do know I and many, many others in this forum provide a fairly sought after service. I suppose I could say I bring music to a very needy group of people who otherwise wouldn't get to hear it in the form that I provide it. Well, trust me, if I don't bring it, there's 5 guys named Moe lined up outside the door ready to step in. Do they do as well as I do, worse than I do? That's not my call...

So, Lucky, I'll ask you to consider this. A musician, who has not fully developed his musical skills, who freely admits a large chunk of what I do some 400 times a year is VERY much all about me and what do I get out of it, yet brings music, memories, smiles, tears and fellowship to upwards of 20 thousand people a year - where does he fall?

There is a real, tangible value and importance to what many of us do daily here. I submit, several of us effect more people than many more talented "art-eests" reach. I've seen that lifestyle up close...I've seen absolute wizards play but they were so fragile emotionally or wild with ego that they couldn't put it all together and find a happy way to weave their music into their daily lives.

"Bad, Bad Leroy Brown" surely is one of the dog songs of all time, yet I play it with great regularity. Why? Because invariably, it evokes emotion in my audiences and brings them pleasure. They smile, they wiggle, they dance...they remember when they danced with the love of their lives who they no doubt miss beyond words. To initiate that response and to get to view the intimacy that usually follows by playing mostly pop tunes of yesteryear, I have always thought to be a high privilege.

I think to rail against anyone who brings musical pleasure to others, is snobbish and trite. To bring this full circle, the guy on the cruise ship, whether I think he plays Piano Man the right way or not, is effecting people in a good way.

They had fun...

Period...

Everything else doesn't matter in the big scheme of things, I think.

------------------
Bill in Dayton



[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 12-23-2008).]

Yep they sure do Lucky!


Ahhhh women.....

Thanks for your positive, constructive comments. Singing wise I'm currently working with that "Deva Method" (from Jeannie Deva) where she really works out your "singing muscles" in her warm ups. We warm up on the way to a gig, and just as importantly, Warm down AFTER the gig.

Gee you're spot on with the rhythmic licks talk - I really do approach the keyboard from a Drummers perspective, rightly or wrongly. I used to shy away from that approach, (I didn't want to be seen as the "dumb drummer" who bashes the keyboard) but I realized recently it's a pretty distinctive style, people enjoy it (and have told me so many many times at gigs) and it's a flashy, interesting "showbiz" approach to playing the board. What I'm careful to do though is practice my Hanon, Scales, and listen to what I'm playing musically and tonally. I have fun and do the simple, visually satisfying (to the audience) "drumming style" of keyboarding, but I'm careful now to work towards using pitch, variation, and being musical in a song - the best of both worlds I hope - I'm not there yet by a LONG shot, but everyday I get a little more like a "real" musician if you know what I mean....

(One good thing about being a former drummer: my timing is actually VERY good - I really DO know where "1" is, and so what I lack in musicality at the moment, I try to make up for with some "cool timings" - things like Syncopation, Polyrhythmic playing, and putting real feel in to a part to compensate for the more "robotic" feel you get playing over even good Midi backings)

Hell I made a great living and saw the world for 12 years impersonating Neil Diamond. Nothing groundbreaking about that nor did I break any musical barriers but I sold a ton of poorly produced homemade CDs of my own music to satisfied customers,

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 12-23-2008).]

Bill.....I could say the same thing about drugs. Ask an addict and he will tell you the drug is affecting me “in a good way.” That’s fine for the moment, but in the long run, what's the result?

My greatest nightmare is that this fellow's performance becomes the standard in entertainment and the Luciano Pavarotti's of the world are completely forgotten!

But....keep up the thinkin'. I like folks who "think." I wish I had more time to!

Lucky

Merry Christmas, Lucky...

I don't think your example holds water...The guy on the cruise ship is bringing visceral enjoyment to others. The drug addict, most would grant, is A-likely hurting or harming (directly) only himself...and B-Engaging in probable illegal behavior.

We'd both agree some musicians out there (perhaps me?) should be locked up until hell freezes over, but I digress...

I think quality music, like water finds its own level. To the masses, KISS were a far, far greater musical entity than was Kansas. You ask most musicians, and you get a totally different answer.

You listen to the stars of today's music. I think they have some amazing chops. What I think they lack is mainly the "fill in the blank with the word of your choice" that I'd call "taste." The wild, excessive mutilations of the melody at the end of phrases, especially drive me crazy. I think its mostly style and little substance. Just because you can swoop and vocally riff on some string of notes doesn't mean you should. It seems to be flash for the sake of flash. Brittany Spears, Mariah Carey, etc...they all seem to do this a lot.

But they are vastly more popular than me, Gary, Donnie, Mason, Dave M., Kingfrog, etc. What they do has mass appeal, for sure.

Are they the "standard" in today's pop music...yes and that tells us alot about the audiences...As was said earlier, Bach, Gershwin, Dylan were all told their art was no good...The burden on us is to be open enough to the music of today as to not miss the new geniuses at work. If we can be strong enough musically to put our feelings and loyalties aside and really listen to the music of today, (yes, its painfully hard sometimes...), we may find some pretty cool stuff.

Are the kings like Pavarotti forgotten? Not hardly...But consider who The king of the high C's was working with in the last years of his life...mostly pop stars...

...and that, courtesy of Luciano Pavarotti himself, perhaps brings us full circle...

------------------
Bill in Dayton

Interesting clip from a documentary called Before the Music Dies.

How to Create a Sexy Pop Star: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irk3_p15RJY .

Worth five minutes of your time?
Dan

[This message has been edited by big741.1 (edited 12-25-2008).]

Spot on, Dan...

Like I said, I think its mostly style and little substance. That said, there are good quality musicians out there amidst the noise and clutter.

I think...

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Bill in Dayton