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#245271 - 09/30/08 07:34 AM Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
bebopster Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/30/08
Posts: 2
Loc: Philo, CA, USA
I have read the reviews and am left blank, again. I am new here so bear with me. I am a old school bebop player who incorporates bossa into the sound. I am interested in either a Korg pa1x, pa800 or I could go with Yamaha Tyros (2 or 3). The second piano I would like is either a Roland Fantom X7 or maybe a Triton extreme? Which of these are better for PA arrangements (jazz) and instruments? For the Roland and Triton extreme which has better sounds for jazz
realistic sounds. Or alternatives. Thanks
for any input. Maybe an all in one PA and
Workstation, any out there?
Michael Wilson

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#245272 - 10/18/08 02:31 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Bebop, and especially bossa, I'd shoot for a G70 or E60. For a start off I am going to assume you play piano. So a 76 is a must. Secondly, if you play piano, I am going to assume you want a GOOD one... again, G70/E60

But bottom line is audition everything yourself, if you can...

One man's Dizzy is another man's Miles

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#245273 - 10/18/08 02:40 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 41891
Diki,

great advice

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#245274 - 10/18/08 02:54 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
If you want a ton (Read 1000's) of third party and Factory styles in Be Bop or Bossa (or any style) the Yamaha has the best library amd the most free styles by far and a lot of user websites.

Here is one where you can download hundreds of styles free http://www.yamahapkowner.com/index.php?page_id=3

You can buy a new Tyros 2 for $2500 or less depending on the dealer now. A Roland RD700 would make a great addition.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-18-2008).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

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#245275 - 10/18/08 03:41 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
keybplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2416
Loc: CA
An all in one "P"ersonal "A"rranger/Workstation?

Well for an all in one you need 76 keys or better for the Piano parts, in my opinion, so maybe the Korg Pa2XPRO could fit the bill for you Michael. It is a high-end Arranger that has Workstation features and has 76 semi-weighted keys. The sounds are right up there with the best of them but the price is a little steep with a street price at around $3,699. Although, that price is actually less than the 61 key Tyros3.

If you purchased two separate keyboards i.e. one as arranger and one as the workstation you could end up paying way more than a single solution PA/Workstation such as the Korg Pa2XPRO.

Another 76 key all-in-one would be the Ketron Audya but it won't be released until next year sometime.

The Roland G70 has been mentioned but it's now getting long in the tooth (read: obsolete ) and lacks some essential and currently modern keyboard technologies such as USB 2.0, Audio/MIDI over USB, Sampler, etc. You can get them on the cheap though so you might want to consider it. It does have 76 pro action keys (NOT weighted or semi-weighted) but still a very good action and with Aftertouch too.

As far as third party support for Styles, Yamaha is certainly one of the best sources for those but you will be reduced to a "two" keyboard solution since the Tyros3/2 are all 61 key and Yamaha doesn't even make a mid-range 76 key arranger either. Plus also, the Tyros3 does NOT really have extensive pro workstation features. It is mainly marketed to Home Hobbyists and is considered a Home oriented keyboard i.e. = plastic outer shell, lackluster Drum Kits, NO "real" Sampler, only 61 keys, etc. But with a 4 Grand price tag (out the door with tax) you would think you'd be getting the Rolls Royce of PRO Arranger keyboards. Apparently not so.

Happy shopping on whatever you finally decide on getting Michael!

Best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 10-18-2008).]
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Mackie HR824 MKII Studio Monitors, Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro Mixer (made in USA), Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, Shure SM58 vocal mic.

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#245276 - 10/18/08 03:57 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: The World
Trying to read between the lines of your post, I would suggest you look at either a PA2x (if too expensive look at a used PA1x, but the pianos are awful), OR a G70. (if the G70 is to expensive the E60 would make a great alternative with some additional outboard gear).

Both have very useful Bebop and Latin styles with the Roland ahead of the Korg.

I also prefer the overall jazz styles on the Rolands as well, although the Korg, again, is not far behind.

The G70 is a super live performance keyboard with great operational tools.

The Korg is too, BUT, and this is a big but, ONLY because of the Songbook, without the songbook it swings decidedly in favour of the G70

Comments about the Yamahas and a "gazillion" styles are true, BUT at the expense of only a 61 note keyboard. In my view, too big a price to pay.

Dennis

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#245277 - 10/18/08 04:34 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
zuki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/20/02
Posts: 4356
Loc: Michigan
I am partial to the PA series. I do a fair amount of bossa type stuff and there are plenty of styles. A comment made about the G70 being hands down? Not in my opinion, just the opposite. That's what makes this an interesting forum

You really have to decide for yourself.
_________________________
Korg PA3X / PSR SX900 / MTM monitors / QSC 8.2s / Zed mixers / Blue mics

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#245278 - 10/18/08 09:08 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 41891
Quote:
Originally posted by zuki:
I am partial to the PA series. I do a fair amount of bossa type stuff and there are plenty of styles. A comment made about the G70 being hands down? Not in my opinion, just the opposite. That's what makes this an interesting forum

You really have to decide for yourself.


Zuki,

you never even gave the G70 a chance its an awesome PRO arranger...in the right hands.
What didnt you like about it?

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#245279 - 10/19/08 10:03 AM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Fran Carango Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9348
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Mike!!!!!!!!!!

Obsolete!!!..

I can tell you never owned a G70..maybe never played one...

"Long in the tooth"..maybe Roland is just waiting for the other guys to catch up..

Oh, and for the record..The G70 has the USB 2.0 covered..as well as an excellent USB midi operation too..maybe the best of the rest....

That same option is on the E series too, including E50/60...
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#245280 - 10/19/08 11:14 AM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Bernie9 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 4969
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
I agree with Fran. I have owned the PA-800 and now have the G70. Once you learn the workings of the G70, there is no doubt in my mind that it is the most awsome keyboard I have ever owned. I was as glad to get rid of the Korg as Zuki was glad to get rid of my G70.
Bernie
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact

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#245281 - 10/19/08 12:58 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Stephenm52 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 4848
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Bernie9:
I agree with Fran. I have owned the PA-800 and now have the G70. Once you learn the workings of the G70, there is no doubt in my mind that it is the most awsome keyboard I have ever owned. I was as glad to get rid of the Korg as Zuki was glad to get rid of my G70.
Bernie


Bernie, I'm happy to hear you're enjoying the G70. Would you share with us what are the things that make it the most awesome keyboard you ever owned?

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#245282 - 10/19/08 02:29 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Bernie9 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 4969
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
I will be glad to tell you how I feel about the G70,compared with the other keyboards I have had, recently including the KN7000 and PA-800. First,there is the mere presence of the board with 76 keys, quality all the way. The keybed is tops. The styles are much better. The sound of the instruments and drums have an up front presence I like. As far as the OS is conscerned, after reading the easily understood manual, I find it fairly intuitive, and amazed at the depth of this machine. The Makeup tools is one of the best features for editing styles and SMF's.

I am not Diki or Fran, who are technicians, as well as great players. I am still finding new things about it all the time. I don't get into p----- contests, so this is my opinion only.

Bernie
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact

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#245283 - 10/19/08 02:53 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Stephenm52 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 4848
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Bernie9:
I will be glad to tell you how I feel about the G70,compared with the other keyboards I have had, recently including the KN7000 and PA-800. First,there is the mere presence of the board with 76 keys, quality all the way. The keybed is tops. The styles are much better. The sound of the instruments and drums have an up front presence I like. As far as the OS is conscerned, after reading the easily understood manual, I find it fairly intuitive, and amazed at the depth of this machine. The Makeup tools is one of the best features for editing styles and SMF's.

I am not Diki or Fran, who are technicians, as well as great players. I am still finding new things about it all the time. I don't get into p----- contests, so this is my opinion only.

Bernie


Thanks Bernie for your feedback.

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#245284 - 10/19/08 03:18 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 41891
Quote:
Originally posted by Bernie9:
I will be glad to tell you how I feel about the G70,compared with the other keyboards I have had, recently including the KN7000 and PA-800. First,there is the mere presence of the board with 76 keys, quality all the way. The keybed is tops. The styles are much better. The sound of the instruments and drums have an up front presence I like. As far as the OS is conscerned, after reading the easily understood manual, I find it fairly intuitive, and amazed at the depth of this machine. The Makeup tools is one of the best features for editing styles and SMF's.

I am not Diki or Fran, who are technicians, as well as great players. I am still finding new things about it all the time. I don't get into p----- contests, so this is my opinion only.

Bernie


Bernie GREAT POST & So TRUE!!

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#245285 - 10/19/08 03:19 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Fran Carango Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9348
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
I would like to add a couple features that most folks are not aware of...including G70 owners...

The G70 (also the E50/60/80) can import and export lyrics..This is super handy..I like to sequence on the G70 (sometimes using a pattern/style and than add tracks live over top..After sequencing..I like to add lyrics via import function..you can also tap in the lyrics timing...all on the keyboard...I need lyrics to remember the words of a tune..

The other feature that most are not aware...the USB/midi interface...allows the G70 to be a decent controller and sound source..connected to a laptop via USB...

It works well with my software programs too..
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#245286 - 10/19/08 03:27 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Is the G70 still current?

Can they still be purchased new, or just second hand?

No new owners on SZ in quite a while.

Sure is popular.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#245287 - 10/19/08 03:27 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Fran Carango Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9348
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Here is another tip for Roland users...

Organize your User Programs via the "index" feature..You can name the categories (8)..like latin, swing, fast rock, etc..
Making it easily accessible when searching for a style of music with all your settings..including one touch for you guys/gals that use them...

The index works with your SMF's the same way..

Also another tid-bit...When you save your "user programs" you can add a SMF link...This allows you to select a User program and have the choice of playing the SMF or the arranged style you programmed...
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#245288 - 10/19/08 03:28 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Fran Carango Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9348
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA


[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 10-19-2008).]
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#245289 - 10/19/08 03:30 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Fran Carango Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9348
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Is the G70 still current?

Can they still be purchased new, or just second hand?

No new owners on SZ in quite a while.

Sure is popular.

_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#245290 - 10/19/08 03:31 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Fran Carango Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9348
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Is the G70 still current?

Can they still be purchased new, or just second hand?

No new owners on SZ in quite a while.

Sure is popular.




Ian, how many new in the box do you want to buy..I can get you a good deal..
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#245291 - 10/19/08 03:31 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
With all this hype, I figure Fran must be getting ready to sell his.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#245292 - 10/19/08 03:34 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Fran Carango Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9348
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
don't confuse fact with hype..I am not talking about Yamaha..
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#245293 - 10/19/08 03:40 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Fran Carango Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9348
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Maybe I secretly ordered a Tyros3..
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#245294 - 10/19/08 03:42 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
don't confuse fact with hype..I am not talking about Yamaha..


It's not me that's cofusing fact with hype...and I'm not talking about Yamaha either.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#245295 - 10/19/08 03:47 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Fran Carango Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9348
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Ian,,,quote my hype comment.....I stated facts and points of interest to those that appreciate a real instrument...
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#245296 - 10/19/08 03:49 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I'm glad you love your keyboard, Fran...really I am!

The G70 is a classic, no doubt, even though it's no longer being supported by Roland with updates...they must be getting ready to launch the next G....or give up the G-series altogether.

I hope not...competition is good for us all...keeps the big guys on their toes.

If they don't, you could always buy a few of those G70's you can get for backup or spare parts.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#245297 - 10/19/08 04:00 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Fran Carango Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9348
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
I'm glad you love your keyboard, Fran...really I am!

The G70 is a classic, no doubt, even though it's no longer being supported by Roland with updates...they must be getting ready to launch the next G....or give up the G-series altogether.

I hope not...competition is good for us all...keeps the big guys on their toes.

If they don't, you could always buy a few of those G70's you can get for backup or spare parts.

Ian


Why would I need an update...My G70 works great for me..apparently Roland feels no need to update..

BTW:At 4 updates to date..not just bug fixes but added features...I believe that is considerably better support than any Yamaha that I am aware...

And as for parts...no need..Roland is built to last and designed to take out of a bedroom..

And yes I am totally pleased with my choice..I could own anything I want..it happens to be the G70 with great reason..
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#245298 - 10/19/08 04:10 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
Why would I need an update...My G70 works great for me..apparently Roland feels no need to update..


I read what's on Roland Arranger and it does seem to need a few fixes...long overdue apparently.

But, it's good that you're happy with it...too bad more people weren't like you as they didn't sell very many.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#245299 - 10/19/08 05:40 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
robbiekeys Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/17/08
Posts: 8
Loc: san jose, ca, usa
They are all cool pro keybords.They all have great viable aproaches to the arranger board concept but dont but the non top of the line models. Keep them like and guitar collection. ne is your tricked out fender strat and the other is your gibson les paul.If there are needed updates and buggs then lets all bugg the hell out of support and get some software features implemented for the amount of money we spend they owe us. For example yamaha just released V3.6 and im on the for a1 full keyboard mode for the 9000 The most realistic drums are in the roland and the korg but yamaha's are awsome but haven't improved much since the psr9000 (a beauty still). Fran is right about the usb for the roland g70 and e80 it works for storage and midi. Korg now has oasys m3 synthesys and korg quality but no scoring and no karama if it had that i'd mabey comit murder to get one I am a paligamist when it comes to arranger boards beautiful sexy instruments in general. Well it's true i confess. Not enough money in my bank to give me peace and i'm forever available. http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/icons/icon6.gif

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#245300 - 10/19/08 07:48 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
keybplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2416
Loc: CA
Originally posted by Fran Carango:

Quote:
Oh, and for the record..The G70 has the USB 2.0 covered..as well as an excellent USB midi operation too..maybe the best of the rest.


I don't know what you're smoking there Fran but the G-70 does NOT have USB 2.0. It has USB 1.1. So when one considers USB 1.1 as an obsolete USB specification in today's world (me and 99.9999999999999% of the rest of us anyway) then one could consider the G-70 obsolete on that instance alone. Michael also wanted in his "all-in-one" other things on today's workstations like a Sampler I would assume, and something the G70 doesn't have either.

Now before you get your bowels in an uproar Fran.. I did suggest that Michael might want to consider the G70 for its low price and the keybed action but also some of the other features too such as physical drawbars and a big LCD, amongst others.

Psst! I actually have played the G70 Fran and I told you way back that I didn't really like the sounds or styles very much. That's just me though. Oh, and there are a few others I could mention that didn't care for it either. I won't mention names though.

Best,
Mike
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Mackie HR824 MKII Studio Monitors, Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro Mixer (made in USA), Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, Shure SM58 vocal mic.

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#245301 - 10/19/08 07:57 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Fran Carango Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9348
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Hey Mike..I never reccommended the G70 to Michael..I never even responded to him..only responded to your wrong info...
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#245302 - 10/20/08 11:56 AM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Good grief, Mike! What are YOU smoking?

There's no need for USB 2 for anything other than jacking samples around. A couple of hundred kb for a BIG style transfers into the G70 faster than you can hit a button. The RAM disk and PCMCIA card slot work instantly, no HD seek times to slow things down (USB2 doesn't make those seek times ANY faster...).

Backup is offline, and so what if it takes 30 seconds instead of 10? Do you back up your HD at the gig?

Unless you have a sampler, if the arranger is designed right in the first place, there's no need for more complicated transfer protocols. USB1 is completely backwards compatible with USB2.

And, in truth, even USB1 completely outperforms any hardware arranger at even loading samples. The bottleneck is at the RAM pipe, USB1 is STILL way faster than the Korg and T2 load up samples.

You have to be less dependent on 'buzzword technology', and realize when you are getting into overkill. If the arranger works completely glitch free during data transfer with USB1, what's the point of USB2?

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-20-2008).]

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#245303 - 10/20/08 01:12 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
keybplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2416
Loc: CA
Originally posted by Diki:
Quote:
if the arranger works completely glitch free during data transfer with USB1, what's the point of USB2?


The point is: "faster data transfer" vs. USB 1.1 Diki. I'll take glitch free USB 2.0 data transfer any day of the week over glitch free USB 1.1.

USB 1.1 tops out at 1.5MB/sec transfer rate whereas USB 2.0 tops out at 60MB/sec - i.e. 12Mb/sec USB 1.1 vs. 480 Mb/sec. USB 2.0

>> When you get your hands on an Arranger or Workstation that has USB 2.0 and start working with it you'll be thankful you have it. It's almost the same scenario as Dial-up vs. Broadband. Once you "taste" it you'll never know how you ever did without it.

Hey, I'm not really dissing the G70 you guys. I know it's your two's pride and joy and I'm happy for you. I am just pointing out some slight "drawbacks" of the G70, that's all. Roland's new Fantom G workstation OTOH, which I own, DOES have USB 2.0, as well as my Roland Sonic Cell. When Fran is telling Michael "mis-information" I felt I needed to correct him on it, even though he is apparently still trying to stick to his 'empty' revolvers. What am I going to do with you Fran...

Maybe he modified (read: jury rigged) his G70 and put in a USB 2.0 interface I dunno. I doubt that would be possible though, especially for Fran. Oops! Sorry Fran... But to go on and believe a lie doesn't do him or Michael any good. I'm not necessarily doing it for Fran's sake either as much as it is for Michael's sake. I didn't want him buying a G70 and later finding out that Fran gave him some "mis-information" and his G70 really "doesn't" have USB 2.0, which it DOESN'T. I repeat: DOES NOT have USB 2.0. Okay?? So in that respect the G70 is, shall I say, slightly "behind the times"? Instead of "obsolete" if it makes you feel better.

Best,
Mike
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Mackie HR824 MKII Studio Monitors, Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro Mixer (made in USA), Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, Shure SM58 vocal mic.

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#245304 - 10/20/08 01:28 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Sorry, Mike, you are still missing the point...

What's the speed of transferring a 40kb file under USB1? (that's all most styles are). At 1.5MB/sec?

Yep, a tiny fraction of one second... How much faster will it be at USB2? Who cares. 1/100th of a second is fast enough!

Just do me ONE favor... explain any use of your arranger that needs data transfer at faster than a tiny fraction of one second...

Then start bitching at Yamaha to put eSATA interfaces on their arrangers (faster MUST be better, no? ) and stand back as they laugh their heads off at you!

Just like me...

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#245305 - 10/20/08 02:48 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
mc Offline
Member

Registered: 07/17/01
Posts: 866
Loc: New York
If you use a lot of bossa, you may want to look at the Ketron SD5 Hd, so you can also get the MS 50/100 styles, there bossa's were nice also.
_________________________
Ketron X1 (Oldie but Goodie)

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#245306 - 10/21/08 09:15 AM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
keybplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2416
Loc: CA
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:

Just do me ONE favor... explain any use of your arranger that needs data transfer at faster than a tiny fraction of one second...



Your point is well taken when concerning the G70 Diki. Since the G70 doesn't have a Sampler and can't load anything other than .mid, .sty, and .txt, USB 1.1 is suitable no doubt for the G70.

But Michael, OTOH, wanted a solution where he would have workstation features either integrated into the arranger or a separate solution of two keyboards. He obviously would be paying much more money for a two keyboard solution therefore I was encouraging him to go for the one keyboard integrated solution. An integrated solution such as the Korg Pa2xPRO has USB 2.0 and a Sampler and, of course, can import .wav, .aiff, and akai if I'm not mistaken. Therefore USB 2.0 would be an "essential" and necessary component because the loading of large .wav files for example.

I think all totl arrangers, from this point on, will incorporate USB 2.0 into them and therefore I was also encouraging Michael to get something technologically current. Also, the G70 is no longer being supported by Roland in the way of OS updates correct? Soon they will be releasing their next totl arranger as well, and it absolutely WILL have USB 2.0 and also either a full fledged Sampler, in my opinion, or at the very least a Sample 'player'. Whether it has 76 keys though is anyone's guess.

But you are right Diki as far as the G70's lack of USB 2.0 in that you can't load anything large enough for the G-70's USB 1.1 to be a hinderance per se. But then again it's lack of a Sampler would further exclude it as an "all-in-one" solution, and that's the reason I was basically steering Michael away from it. But like I said in my previous post he may want to consider it in a "two" keyboard solution as a separate arranger for its low price (used) and nice keybed action.

OTOH, why would he really.. when the Korg PA2XPRO is an "integrated" solution, has 76 keys, has USB 2.0, has a Sampler, has a great action keybed, and is priced lower than, for instance, the new Yamaha 61 key Tyros3? Oh, and it weighs less than the G-70 too.

Best,
Mike



[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 10-21-2008).]
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#245307 - 10/21/08 10:11 AM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Well, first of mall, I looked at the initial post, saw the words 'old school bebop player' and don't see any particular requirement for a sampler...

One of the strengths of the G70 is that a lot of the sounds, particularly the piano, is so good on-board, there's no need to complicate things and slow them down with a sampler. For bossa, and bebop, the G70's OOTB sound is already just about perfect. Great drums, decent percussion, great upright, great piano, great sax (but no SA - it's still one of the best, even without it). Why complicate things, or add the expense of a sampler and it's library?

My advice to the original poster would remain to just try the G70. You may not need a WS or second keyboard at all... Why complicate the task if you don't have to...?

Finally, to return to the USB thing... I'm sorry, but USB1 already outperforms the RAM pipe in hardware samplers. 1.5MB/sec is WAY faster than any contemporary arranger sampler loads up at. The T2 worked out to about .25MB/sec (four times slower than my K2500!) and I heard the Korg's were about the same. Throwing the data at the bottleneck of the RAM pipe faster doesn't shove it through the hole in any less time!

There's theoretical speed, then there's reality...

The reality is, USB2 confers NO advantage to an arranger, at the moment. But a freakin' big FlashRAM drive would! Even a USB1 FlashRAM drive (like my G70) outperforms the USB2 HD's in other arrangers because there is negligible seek times (the thing that REALLY slows down file transfer).

Many Yamaha users remark about the time it takes to pull a style off the HD (Korg is probably the same). On a Roland, this is instantaneous.

Advantage, USB1, I would say!

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#245308 - 10/21/08 06:17 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Fran Carango Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9348
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Maybe he modified (read: jury rigged) his G70 and put in a USB 2.0 interface I dunno. I doubt that would be possible though, especially for Fran. Oops! Sorry Fran... But to go on and believe a lie doesn't do him or Michael any good. I'm not necessarily doing it for Fran's sake either as much as it is for Michael's sake. I didn't want him buying a G70 and later finding out that Fran gave him some "mis-information" and his G70 really "doesn't" have USB 2.0, which it DOESN'T. I repeat: DOES NOT have USB 2.0. Okay?? So in that respect the G70 is, shall I say, slightly "behind the times"? Instead of "obsolete" if it makes you feel better.

Best,
Mike


First off Mike, I have not found any facts stating the G70 is USB1.1..or 2.0...If you can direct me to this fact, please advise me..

Also the only Roland products that I found stating they "support " 2.0 are products that are USB/audio or sampling transfer equipment..

The other product lines just mention USB without the speed declaration..

Being that Roland does use USB 2.0, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't use it across the product line..We are not talking any significant cost...

I see you are in "computer related" avocation..can you explain what that really means...in case I am barbing with a "true expert"..

As for misleading anyone ..not happening, I did not recommend the G70 to the fella..just questioning your account..and yes you were wrong about USB/midi...

Please no more sparring comments, I am not as patient and tolerable as I use to be..
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#245309 - 10/21/08 07:56 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Fran Carango Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9348
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
I just completed a test..that may shed some light on the USB connection of the G70...

I transferred data from the external Compact Flash card on the G70 via USB cable to my PC..

I also transferred the same data from the same Compact flash card via the built in card reader of my PC...


The results...the transfer from the G70 to the PC was 13 times faster than the transfer from the card reader to the PC..


Any thoughts?

Sure sounds like the G70 has a 2.0 USB...but if not..who cares...it surly is fast enough..
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#245310 - 10/22/08 12:57 AM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
No, Fran, the G70 is strictly USB1. But, as you noticed, it's as fast as you need...

I am always amused by the 'spec wars' types, that if they see something more advanced technologically, assume that MUST translate into better performance. Unfortunately, reality rears it's ugly head

1.5MB/sec is pretty damn fast, unless you are trying to load all 50MB of the FlashRAM drive... but the only time you do that is offline, at home, when backing up your data (which is only 20-30MB of that 50MB, anyway). I can wait for 30 seconds to do an entire archive backup. Somehow, my day just isn't THAT busy!

As I said, it must burn Mike's ass to not have eSATA on his arranger... I mean, if 1/100th of a second is fast, an arranger that can load a style in 1/1000th MUST be better!

USB2 is SO last year's technology!

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#245311 - 10/24/08 10:10 AM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
keybplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2416
Loc: CA
For both of your 'edification', I HAVE done archiving on my Fantom G7 and my Sonic Cell and believe it or not USB 2.0 really does help. In a BIG way I might add. I know there are limitations within the motherboard and chipset through the Front Side Bus (FSB) on the mainboard and the memory buses on arranger and workstation keyboards but when a manufacturer starts including USB 2.0 on their arrangers and workstations they ALSO take the necessary steps to insure that the USB 2.0 will be a benefit to the User (else why give it USB 2.0 in the first place?). So the "whole system" essentially will have to be upgraded by manufacturers to enable the use of USB 2.0 in an efficient and "effective" manner. Each manufacturer has to decide just how efficiently they want their workstations and arrangers to take advantage of the USB 2.0 standard. If a manufacturer decides to take only a few measures then of course the result would not be as great as a manufacturer who takes ALL necessary steps to ensure the fastest transfer rate possible on their keyboard(s) with USB 2.0. So what I am saying is your mileage may vary depending on how 'advanced' the keyboard's "whole system" is (which are essentially computers inside) and how optimally "tuned" they are for taking advantage of the faster USB spec.

For instance, the Tyros2 has USB 1.1 and it also can load .wav samples. Load time on the Tyros 2 for large .wav files was notoriously "slow" and people complained about: "why have a Sample 'player' and not be able to take advantage of it??" Notice I didn't say Sampl'er' because the Tyros2 doesn't have a "real" Sampler, just a sample 'player'. Same with the Tyros3 for that matter.

Anyway, it would be nice to know what the now USB 2.0 capable Tyros3 load times are compared with the Tyros2' ultra slow times. I have to think there will, no doubt, be much better load times on the Tyros3, and if they're not, then we know who to blame right? In other words, you can't blame the spec itself because USB 2.0 "is what it is" i.e. up to 480Mb/s (60MB/s) of transfer rate speed. You have to blame the manufacturer (in this case Yamaha) if the T3 load times are not dramatically improved over the T2's load times.

So yes.., your mileage will vary depending on how effectively and efficiently each Manufacturer has made the keyboard's computer interface and "whole system" work with the USB 2.0 interface on each system i.e. each keyboard. But I can tell you "firsthand" that Roland has done a reasonable job regarding USB 2.0 on both the Fantom G and Sonic Cell.

Best,
Mike



[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 10-24-2008).]
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#245312 - 10/24/08 10:53 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Thanks for the 'edification'

But, as I pointed out, backing up your HD isn't exactly a time critical function. I can wait patiently for the minute or so it might take. Nobody does this in front of an audience, do they?

As to speeding up the transfer of samples, once again, I point out USB1.1's theoretical limit of 1.5MB/sec. And AGAIN, I point out that the T3 (and Korg, for all I know) do not, as of now, manage to load samples up at even the top speed of USB1.

So what, exactly, does it help to have USB2?

Other than to give a sense of technological superiority over just as capable arrangers without it..?

Look, there are MANY advantages of T3's and PA2Xpro's over older arrangers. Guitar modes that work. SA2 voices to die for. Samplers that read popular sample formats (in Korg's case). MP3 players (for those that use them), etc., etc..

Why try to puff up a feature that IN PRACTICE, confers no appreciable advantage? Plenty that DO to crow about

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#245313 - 10/26/08 03:45 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
keybplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2416
Loc: CA
So you're saying the T3 doesn't load large files any faster than the T2 Diki? Who told you that? Did I miss a thread topic or discussion mentioning it? I find it hard to believe that the T3 load times aren't any better than the T2's. If that is indeed true, it is just one more reason for T2 owners to hold on to their existing T2 boards.

OTOH, I have worked extensively with USB 1.1 on computers and of course on my former T1. The T1 was a similar situation to the G70 in that it couldn't load .wav files and subsequently the USB 1.1 on my Tyros was, nevertheless, sufficient for its purpose i.e. for the loading of Styles and Midi.

Having worked with USB 1.1 on an Arranger I can fully attest to the superiority of USB 2.0 on my Fantom G7 and Sonic Cell. No matter how you perceive USB 1.1 to be e.g. sufficient enough for my 4 year old keyboard , etc., the fact remains that USB 1.1 is an obsolete USB specification Diki. It may work okay for you on the G70 as it did for me on my former Tyros but when you start getting into the archiving, loading, and exporting of large .wav, .aiff, files if you don't currently have a USB 2.0 capable arranger/workstation you, no doubt, would have wished you did.

Michael has never responded to any of our subsequent posts regarding this topic and I'm wondering if he realized when Nigel yanked his topic from the other forum and posted it in the general arranger forum that Michael even knew where to find it. So perhaps all of our discussion on this topic has not reached its intended target. Hopefully those who have read through it will, nonetheless, find some benefit from it.

YO FRAN!! You knew I was kidding regarding the G70 and your ability to be technicially minded right? Putting USB 2.0 on the G70 would require some hardware upgrades and Roland, needless to say, wouldn't sell you the necessary parts anyway. So in reality, if you want USB 2.0 on an arranger or workstation you'll have to use your Mediastation (if you still have it that is.. ) or buy something new on the market that already incorporates it on the Keyboard itself. But please do NOT continue to delude yourself into thinking your 4 year old G70 has USB 2.0, okay?

I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of Roland's new Arranger Flagship that WILL, of course, HAVE USB 2.0 amongst several other very exciting, cutting edge features too. But whether it has 76 keys though is anybodies guess, seeing how Roland didn't sell a boat load of the 76 key G70. I don't think Roland sold many of the 61 key E-80's either for that matter. [img]http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Sad/sad-005.gif[/img]

What needs to be accomplished, in my opinion, is for Roland to come through with a 'brand new' and 'extraordinary' preset patch set to better compete with the likes of the Korg Pa2XPRO and Yamaha Tyros3 as well as the upcoming Audya. For it also to have 76 keys - with an extraordinary keybed even better than the G70's keybed. Have a real Sampler, ARX card expandability, and weigh in under 40 lbs. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/cool.gif[/img] Do all that plus have all the other cutting edge features like USB 2.0, an outstanding Sequencer, 500 ALL NEW Styles, and bring back the Chord Sequencer and everybody will be happy, including Diki. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] Roland will no doubt have an absolute winner on its hands and WILL, needless to say, sell a verifiable BOAT LOAD of them, and will make up for all the years of lackluster G70 and E80 sales to boot. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img]

Whether or not Roland has followed any of my suggestions or timely advice has yet to be seen though. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/rolleyes.gif[/img] It doesn't hurt to dream I guess though, right? [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img]

Best,
Mike
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Mackie HR824 MKII Studio Monitors, Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro Mixer (made in USA), Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, Shure SM58 vocal mic.

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#245314 - 10/26/08 04:47 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Still waiting for someone to post the times difference of sample loading between T2 and T3. And I would still be surprised if it exceeds 1.5MB/sec.

It may indeed be faster from the T2 to the T3 at sample loading times. But there are a large variety of factors in what is REALLY making the difference. Data bus speeds... clock speeds of CPU's, larger RAM pipe specs, and finally, yes, the interface speed.

But, unless the T3 can load up samples at faster than 1.5MB/sec, the HD interface isn't the primary source of the improvement. What's the point of an interface that can deliver 60MB/sec, if the device can't take it any faster than 1.5MB/sec? (or more likely .75MB/sec - that would still be a three times improvement to the T2 )

Archiving to computer is an altogether different situation, because you are talking to a piece of gear that has no problem moving data around at those speeds. But the imbedded systems in hardware keyboards are NOT computers. No current sampler in a hardware keyboard (MotifXS, M3, FantomG, T3, PA2Xproetc.) can move samples around at anywhere NEAR the speed of USB2, and I still haven't seen any evidence that they have broke the 1.5MB/sec mark yet.

Personally, I can't WAIT for reliable imbedded arrangers to get computer data transfer speeds. Loading loops up for every song would be a practical thing, especially if the data transfer could be in the background (rather than grinding the machine to a halt as they currently do...

But for practical, song to song use, they are all to damn slow, right now. I'd rather use a laptop and Kontakt than put up with the slow load times of current hardware if I were using them live.

USB2 or not, it STILL not fast enough.

(And before the MS fanboys chime in, I'm talking about arrangers that sound great when you buy them, not after you've built, designed, installed, troubleshot, created styles, voiced all the keyboard sounds, and THEN got it to sound good!)

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#245315 - 10/26/08 05:12 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: The World
Diki,
Just to clarify another of your "broad brush" comments.

I am not yet ANY sort of a "fanboy" for the MS!

Sheesh, I haven't even touched one yet.

What I have been espousing, is the system and concept, NOT necessarily a Media Station per se.

I just wanted to clear that up!!

The streaming performance of the MS, is probably one of the first things I will benchmark. All my VST work has been with windows, and nothing with Linux or AMD so it will be interesting. Especially as far as I know, the AMD processors do not use floating point, so it will be also interesting to compare performance with the Intel processors that do.

But just quietly, (LOL if such a thing is possible on a forum) I am seriously considering ditching the PC altogether and heading to one of those nice G5's...mmm nice machine.

After all I did start on an Atari ST and Steinberg 12, and the Ataris were very "Apple" like.

I think I have mentioned before that I am NOT buying the MS as a style machine primarily, although if I can get it to do that job well, it will be nice, and add some extra fun.

Dennis


[This message has been edited by miden (edited 10-26-2008).]

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#245316 - 10/26/08 06:33 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
I completely agree (there... it happens!).

The IDEA of the MS is absolutely wonderful. I have been waiting for years for this exact kind of product... BUT... it's execution as an arranger is just too much 'roll your own' for me. Sure, I love to try new things, edit styles, even create a bit. But I like a library of already well executed stuff as an inspiration, a source of 'pieces parts' to assemble new styles out of (probably what more people that CLAIM they make their own styles actually do), a sound set already at the top of it's game, with only areas of my personal interest to fill in.

From all the factory demos, I have to sadly conclude that it would take me a considerable amount of time, skill, and money just to get it to equal what I already have. And THEN I would have to work even harder to get it to surpass it!

So, while I LOVE the idea of the MS, so far I have to pass, because theory and practice don't coincide. I am a ONE keyboard live player (live, and in the studio, I already have enough VSTi's), so that one has to be better than what I have before it becomes a necessity. The MS is better in some areas than my G70. But in many, practical areas, it lags way behind. So, I wait, and wait, and wait

Sooner or later, somebody will make an MS-type product that starts out as a great TOTL arranger. And I can take it to the next level at my own pace.

I can wait...

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#245317 - 10/26/08 07:28 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: The World
Yes I agree.
I certainly hear what you are saying..Its a bit different for me, but I do understand and to a large extent agree with your thoughts.

Dennis

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#245318 - 10/26/08 08:19 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
Well, I hope Michael IS still reading, and this discussion (sans pissing wars) is helping him.

My suggestion is...... a G-70 (!)

Now I'll tell you why.

Yes on principal I'm loathe to agree with Fran about the G-70 (purely because he believes it is a keyboard capable of achieving everything from curing the problem of world hunger to winning the impending U.S. election)

BUT

it IS a machine that I think would help Michael bearing in mind he is (I assume) an old school player who wants to use Swing/Jazz/Latin Arranger styles in a user friendly manner. With makeup tools and an easy to use O.S. I think it would suit him - 76 keys is a necessity (IMO) in this situation too.

As for the Korg, I think it is a deeper machine (read : takes more time to fully take advantage of it's power AND is very much a programmers machine - a la a workstation) and I believe Michael just wants something that sounds good OOTB and is easy to use - again OOTB.

(Korg users please don't get me wrong, if you all remember, I currently use a PA1x Pro-Elite (with expanded memory and MP3 option) and for what I use it for (ALL genres from 40's to Top-40, MP3 playback and user sampling) it suits me fine - MORE than fine.

Piano wise, I've got some absolutely knockout Pianos (I have about 4 "go-to" sounds) that were available for free on Korg related websites, and I've tweaked the factory piano sounds.
So samples & sampling have been VERY useful to me for many reasons, but I believe for Michael's purposes, it's not necessary.
_________________________
God I hate signatures.

BUT...

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#245319 - 10/26/08 09:19 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
I've got a lot of respect for the PA2Xpro, it has a great sound, a superb Guitar Mode, loads Akai disks into the sampler, allows full voice editing, an all around pro piece of work.

BUT... there's just one thing I can't get past. Only two fills and a break fill for a four variation style. Simply not enough, IMO, and virtually 80's era feature-wise. Yamaha have six and a break/fill, Roland's have seven and a break/mute, and it honestly helps the transitions be smoother and more natural. Heck, even the GW-8 has four fills

And it's only $895!

I can't understand how Korg can be SO good at updating the OS, and STILL haven't got around to this PRIMARY need.

Now, I know all the Korg owners are about to jump in and go 'but it works fine for me!' which is probably true. We ALL had to use two fill arrangers ten years ago or more! And we got by...

But seven fills is SO much better...

Make some noise. It's probably the ONE last area that other arrangers truly beat out this great arranger... Surely Korg is listening to you?

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