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#180795 - 05/17/06 02:54 PM Re: Newer is not always better
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
AJ, I agree..why would anyone want to tweak our sequence library to conform with a sound source that is suppose to, but does not conform to GM..
All my softsynths[including SGM180] and hardware [Roland], play fine...I wouldn't even consider a product that can't conform to GM, GM2, and most important to me, GS...

I'm not quite sure that Diki was commenting on you, but it was a little confusing..

How did such an uncomplicated topic get so complicated?
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www.francarango.com



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#180796 - 05/17/06 02:59 PM Re: Newer is not always better
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Just a brief comment........ You want something smaller and more robust than a laptop to play SMF's? Try a SC880 Pro module or even an older M-GS64 rack module......

As good as the G1000 mp3 (same engine), bombproof, no latency issues (how do you deal with integrating your keyboard and laptop without soundcard delay issues?) and NO CRASHES....... EVER!

And, if you are using the sound-font as SMF playback ONLY, and you aren't using the sounds to play live (latency issues again), why not just record the SMF through the best gear you can beg borrow and steal and then just use MP3s? An iPod would be sufficient, I'd say (and a video one could display lyrics or leadsheets for you, too)

BTW,,,,,,,,,, no, I don't have a life; I have a JOB! It's my job to sound as good as they pay me to sound, and they pay me pretty well! So the several weeks it took to tweak my SMFs and styles from the G1000 over to the G70 was work that I consider I have been paid for. And considering that I used the G1000 for over 6 years as my main gig keyboard, and anticipate that I will get at least that from the G70, a month or so doesn't seem that long for all the use I will get from them.
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#180797 - 05/17/06 03:25 PM Re: Newer is not always better
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Diki, are you saying you had to do a lot of tweaking to use the same files that played fine on the G1000..but not the same on the G70...

Please tell me..the G70 is still GS compatible? If not, I can see where it may not work for me [as the JV/XP/XV/Fantom..didn't..]only GM/GM2 compliant..
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#180798 - 05/17/06 04:30 PM Re: Newer is not always better
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
I understand Diki, and really I have no argument with you, but I also think that characterizing others who you don't know personally at all as lazy just because they don't see fit to work the way you do is maybe a wee off base. As I said before, I'm not at all sore about it, just chuckling a bit.

This forum is filled with many people who come from different arenas in life. Your reasoning and approach is totally different than mine, and neither is right or wrong. I have a job too, and many other things going on in my life, probably as much if not more than a lot of people in my age group. I don't mind at all... in fact, I embrace it. Still, strictly speaking for myself, I can think of more productive ways to spend my limited spare time than tweaking midifiles, which for the most part I rarely actually need to use in the first place.

BTW My steady paying job isn't music, and I don't regret that. In fact, I'm pretty happy doing what I do and I wouldn't want it any other way.. OTOH I've also never regretted the money that came my way for the jobs I have done.


AJ
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AJ

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#180799 - 05/17/06 05:39 PM Re: Newer is not always better
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi AJ,
quite frankly, if the Lecacy edition, were the type of sounds I used frequently, I'd have no hesitation in spending the money either.
I just came across these new age, spacey , soundtrack type of styles in biab 2006, and remembered how incredible some of the Wavestation sounds were. Some of the gm synth sounds leave a bit to be desired, so I'm hoping this 600mb+ soundfont, may fill a gap.
I also had the M1 rackmount, plus O1W & Wavestation. My MI worked beautifully ( probably didn't have as much use as yours haa haa) But what a great way to get all those synths back.

I finally bit the bullet & ordered a new laptop ( 2 gigs this time ).
My Dell ( 512mb) laptop is working again, but the desktop has packed it in now. The Dell's now my general , internet pc & the new one will be dedicated to music. Great excuse to get a new laptop

best wishes
Rikki.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bluezplayer:
[B]
Rikki,

The Legacy edition is expensive compared to most other vst modules. In fact, off the top of my head, I will say it is the most expensive VST I've ever purchased, but I just had to have it. It includes versions of the MS20, Wavestation, Polysix, and M1. I had the latter two in their heydays. The Polysix was my first analogue synth, and it worked like a charm. My M1 however, was buggy. When it worked, it was a good board, but when the eeprom went bad in it, it cost big bucks to have it reprogrammed.
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best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#180800 - 05/17/06 08:30 PM Re: Newer is not always better
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Yes, unfortunately (please see my earlier post to this thread with a more detailed explanation), the G70 does only a fair to poor job of playing unmodified SMFs compared to a G1000.

BUT.......... read my post again. Roland provide the fastest, easiest way to correct this problem. Let's face it, if all you want is a new keyboard that sounds EXACTLY like your G1000, why change at all..........?

If you want a new keyboard that sounds seriously better, you are gong to have to put some time in tweaking the files to make it sound as good as it can. Who, in their right mind, wants to run an SMF through (for instance) a MotifES and NOT use the best sound for each part? Well, OK, you're going to have to do some work.......... But doesn't the end justify the means?

Please don't over-react to my 'lazy' description of this problem. I fully understand that not everyone here is a full-time musician, and am sorry to describe the problem in such a confrontational way, but in all professions there is the 'easy' way and there is the 'best' way. The ones that rise to the top are the ones that take the path less travelled........

Once again I bring up the point that ANY SMF needs tweaking to sound it's best on anything but the original equipment...... but how easy does YOUR manufacturer make this process???

I argue that if your keyboard was as easy to adjust as a G70, you probably WOULD take the time.............
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#180801 - 05/17/06 11:09 PM Re: Newer is not always better
trident Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 1457
Loc: Athens, Greece
Ok, here are the files I finally uploaded.

This is the Hypersonic2 GM version: http://storeandserve.com/download/245678/honky_tonk_hypersonic_GM.mp3.html

This is the Bandstand GM version: http://storeandserve.com/download/245683/honky_tonk_bandstand_GM.mp3.html

This is Hypersonic2, with selected better quality instruments: http://storeandserve.com/download/245693/honky_tonk_hypersonic_SELECTION.mp3.html

Bandstand kept doing things in playback and I suspect there are a lot of stuck notes after the first minute. It tried to stream from the hard disk but my PC is full of garbage so it couldn't cope.

Hypersonic did fine. In the second version with the selected instruments, I let it play for a while and during playing changed the amp simulation on the Distortion guitar, and changed some drum kits. The instruments I selected may be not the best for the situation, I just searched and replaced the original GM with their high quality equivalents.

Here is a screenshot from Hypersonic2 so you know which instruments replaced which: http://storeandserve.com/download/245733/hypersonic_selection.jpg.html

I think Hypersonic sounds better, on both GM occasions I just loaded the file and let it play, while recording with Goldwave.

Cheers,
Theodore

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#180802 - 05/18/06 05:42 AM Re: Newer is not always better
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Theodore, Thanks for taking the time to record these versions.
For me personally, it allowed me a chance to compare Banstand with what I am presently using.[Thinking about purchasing]..

I agree with you ..Of the recordings you did, I favor the Hypersonic GM version..

To date, including My recording, Donny's, AJ's and yours..I think overall, I still prefer the G1000 recording, followed by AJ's SGM180..then your Hypersonic GM version.
I guess this shows merit in softsynths[2 out the top 3, to me..are softsynths].
Thanks again for all you guy's taking the time to record...I really found it interesting, and fruitful for me..
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www.francarango.com



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#180803 - 05/18/06 06:53 AM Re: Newer is not always better
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Theodore, I spent more time listening to your recordings again..

I definitely like the Hypersonic better than Bandstand on this SMF..

I liked some of the changes you were making on Hypersonic[variations]..very interesting..
My thinking is it may not be as reliable to use Bandstand..the hanging notes would drive me crazy..
For my use , I do need a good GM choice. I would not entertain changing my thousands of files to accommodate a sound source..

It does seem to me that the Roland and SGM180, have a clarity that I prefer, but some on the instruments in Hypersonic merits my interest in checking it out in more detail..I may add Hypersonic to my arsenal..
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www.francarango.com



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#180804 - 05/18/06 08:52 AM Re: Newer is not always better
trident Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 1457
Loc: Athens, Greece
Fran,
believe it or not, I have the feeling that when using Bandstand and listening to either:

a) PRO midifiles made from Roland itself, or
b) PRO made, 3rd party midifiles intented for use with Roland equipment (SC series etc, produced in the 90's),

without changing anything, Bandstand sounds better or maybe more acceptable or maybe more "Roland HyperCanvas-like" out of the box, compared to Hypersonic2 which sounds more Yamaha-like.

BUT (in capital letters),
a) you have to give it enough time to load the appropriate instruments before you start to play (about 20-30 seconds for the Honky Tonk midifile you sent me,
b) Pray and hope that there are no program changes halfway in the song, because they need time for the new instrument to load.
c) ther are not many instruments playing at once (which was the case with the Honky Tonk midifile) because it will try to use the hard drive with unpredictable results.

During playback of the Honky Tonk, memory consumption was showing about 120MB, and topping at about 45% processor time. ( all that in 48KHz playback, in 90 KHz it stutters profoundly in my system).

Someone with a better PC than mine, (Athlon 1400+, 768MB RAM, audiophile 24/96, lots of garbage programs inside) may find that Bandstand is behaving differently, but I write about what I see.

Bear in mind that it also has some settings I didn't touch, like an EQ for every channel with presets like "Rock" or "lowpass", and some of them sound good. It also has a very "Hypercanvas" like interface, with the same controls, (tracks are top to bottom instead of left to right, with chorus, reverb and level readily accessible).

Bandstand's GM drums are miles ahead that Hypersonic2's GM drums, although they have some quirks when I use certain Casio Styles. (the maracas or something similarly sounding are unbearably loud, they are louder than the snare drum!). Hypersonic avenges itself when you load other drum kits, but they miss some instruments like congas etc, as another Synthzone member pointed out.

Hypersonic has a very fast engine. It loads things fast, and some of the XXL instuments shown in the photo I provided are very big. It has an enormous selection of instruments like guitars and synths, though lacks in some areas, like woodwinds. Never stuttered, except in case i was trying to load a 30 MB instrument while 5-6 other equally large instruments where playing at the same time, but the wait is nowhere as long as Bandstand's.

What I dream of, is a utility which will take a midifile, and change the instruments automatically to the high quality equivalents of Hypersonic. This would provide excellent results. I think one such utility exists fot the Tyros or am i mistaken?

Ahh, I forgot, I tried to record MA-Audio Key Rig GM version also, it behaved very erraticaly, so I gave up. Sound quality was inferior to both the others according to my ears.

If you have any questions, I'd be happy to try to help.
Theodore

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 05-18-2006).]

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