Hello people!
this is my first post on this Forum, and I'm happy I finally found a great Forum for keyboards and synth enthusiasts and professionals.Ok, I'll come to the point.
I'm in the process of renewing my Studio gears, specifically I am in need of a new arranger. I use to have a Technics KN-3000 that i just sold on eBaay (got a great deal )
I would prefer getting a rack based board, but given there are not a lot (actually there is pobably none) rack based arrangers from Yamaha or Technics (the only one I could find was teh Solton K-4 but seems to be an older model) I am debating between the KN-2600 or the PSR 2100.

Can anyone of you that used both keyboards, recommend the best one between the two?

I write songs and compose contemporary music so I need something that is versatile and has a lot of new sounds and styles. My KN-3000 was getting old on that matter.

KN-2600 vs. PSR 2001 .... Why should I get one or another? How do they compare on sounds and arrangment styles? do they both have USB connectivity for Audio recording? (Digital Audio OUT)

please tell me anything you feel is inportant in order for me to make this decision. also... where is the best plae online (best prices and shipping) to go for getting either keybs?

Thanks so much!
I am looking forward to get your opinions and reccomendations. I would like to get the new board next week, so I would really appreciate if you could send the comments


------------------
Cheers,

M.C.GATTO

M.C. Welcome to the forum! You'll like it here.
There has been a lot of discussion on the merits of the 2100 and 2000, which are virtually the same. As I recall, there was even some comparison between it and the Technics KN2600. You might try the search engine to retrieve this information.
I think you'll end up choosing the Yamaha.
Ketron does make an excellent arranger module, comparable to the latest keyboards. I'm sure someone will chime in with a description of it, although traffic is usually quite slow on Sunday.
DonM

M.C. GATTO welcome to the SynthZone Forum. You've come to the right place for finding info on Arranger Keyboards.

Ketron makes a Module in the XD3 and the X4. The XD3 focuses mainly on Accordian type sounds and it would be a great Module if you play[ed] the Accordian. There are other sounds on it of course. It has 64 note Polyphony, 32 Multitimbral, Live Drum Kits, etc. It does 'NOT' have a Digital Output. The X4 also has 64 note Polyphony plus you can add SIMM Memory to expand the Sequencer's recording note[s] limit. It is also 32 Multitimbral. I noticed Ketron's web site does not have a Brochure in English so I translated the Italian Brochure for you. Here is the translation of the X4 Module:

"X4 comes installed l?unità Vocalizer (optional), one of the two microphones can control l?unità Vocalizer while l?altro it can work normally: situation this ideal for a duetto. The Vocalizer é endowed a professional Harmonizer to 3 Voices of un?ampia range of the 16 completely programmabili vocal effects all?interno of Vocal Sets available: Trio, Duet, Unison, Harmony, Vocoder, Falsetto, Baby, Alien, Gorilla, Mickey Mouse, Rapper and many others. L?effetto can be assigned is to the section Song that all?Accompagnamento automatic rifle, for which function Vocalize to Arranger is previewed also l?utilissima that allows to assign various vocal effects to the several sections dell?Arranger. The Vocalizer interprets all correctly the Midifiles programmed with Vocalist trace, with the possibility to block interested the Midi Channel all?harmonizer. The Vocalizer card concurs moreover one separate equalization for the direct Microphone and l?effetto harmonizer, with controls of Filter to 3 bands (Low, Mid, Hi), Pan/Pot, Frequency, Resonance, Formant, Riverbero and Delay. The Simm inner Ram dell? Structured X4 é on two sections separated from 8 Mbyte ciascuna, one for the Sampling and l?altra for the premanifactured Sound Banks of the Bookcase for Ketron X4, X1 and X8. The Sampling section is connected all?Ingresso of the microphone of the instrument and concurs a sampling of 16 professional quality with Bit and 44.1 KHz. The champions, in Wav format, can be editati and therefore Sound personalized Library saves sull?Hard Disk to you in such way to create one. L?editing previews advanced functions of Loop, Reverse, ADSR, Filter, Shift, Tune Aim and allocation Effects. With function MSP (Multisampling) Splits can be defined until 8 new Program Changes every compound from 32 multiple Samplings until. PROGRAMMABILITÀ BEEN LEFT OVER the Ketron X4 is equipped of a powerful Sequencer from 36.000 notes/16 Traces (expandible to 300.000 notes with 4Mb of Simm), that it allows to create sequences originates them or to copy and to modify preesistenti sequences or Midifiles. They can be programmed in the inner memory until 99 Patterns (198 if it comes installed optional l?Espansione 2Mb Flash), with recording of the single parts in real time or via Midi and with sophisticated functions of Editing much. The section of the 128 User Voice also allows to editare all Sounds PCM, Analogic and FM of the instrument for means of several functions which ADSR, Filter, Volume, Shift, Resonance and new and personalized LFO in order to create sonorità. Programmabile section for the Drum Sets with the new 4 possibility exists moreover one to create until User Drum Sets (in adding to the 20 Drum Sets inner). COMPUTER L INTERFACE? X4 is equipped of a taken Computer Interface which concurs to connect the computer instrument also (PC, Mac). Through an optional cable and a specific Software to install on the computer, the X4 is in condition for sending and for receiving regarding information the Midi and all the others files of management of the instrument which Styles, Programs, Registrations, User Voices etc. Moreover such connection can serve in order to carry out on computer one copy of backup of the data dell?Hard inner Disk dell? X4. CONCLUSIONS our objective is that one to always create the best instrument possible in order to make music, thanks to un?instancabile search in the sound and one particular attention to the necessities of the solisti musicians. L? X4, we are convinced some, constitutes a meaningful step in ahead in the field of the contemporary Arranger modules and it will not lack sure to offer new, stimulating emotions to all it gets passionate interpreters to you of music from the alive one. Functions keyboard Polifonia Sound Source User Voices Sound Card (optional) Sound Ram Factory Styles Stiles Custom Drum Mixer User Drum Set"

They do have an English 'Manual'. Here is the link to the main Arranger page. You may have to scroll to get to the X4. Click on the "Manual" link to bring up the Window for downloading it. You will need a PDF Reader on your Computer, eg., Adobe Acrobat, to open and read the Manual file. Here is that link: http://www.ketron.it/prodotti/index.asp?idTipo=2 PS: I have no idea what the X4 costs.

As to the PSR 2100 and the Technics KN2600, I have played both personally and both are good Keyboards. Both have 64 note Polyphony. The Technics uses SD Memory, ie., "Secure Digital" Memory on the KN2600 which is a good feature to have for saving your Recordings, Midi's, etc. The sounds on the KN2600 are pretty good. Some of the Organ sounds are a little weak 'thin' but overall the sounds are fairly decent. Although the internal Speakers on the KN2600 have more 'Watts' of power they actually do not sound as good as the PSR 2100's internal speakers IMO. The Volume is also lacking. Full volume is not really that loud on the KN2600 considering it has 2 x 20Watt speakers. They both have USB connectivity. The PSR 2100's Flash ROM Memory is miserly -(1.5mb) compared to the expansive SD Memory Cards. The PSR 2100 has a Floppy Drive though whereas the KN2600 does NOT have a Floppy Drive. But you wouldn't need it since you have the SD Memory capability.

Neither the PSR 2100 or KN2600 has Hard Drive capability. But then again the SD Memory Card capacities are up to 1 GB in size and pretty soon they will be up to '8' GB's in size so essentially it IS a Hard Drive. Also the KN7000 has SD Memory and you can even use the SD Memory for loading and playing not just .Wav files, etc., but MP3 files as well. I think the same thing is possible on the KN2600 but I could be mistaken. Call a dealer to confirm this if you have questions regarding this and other features.

Now here's the Kicker - you will pay 'several' hundred dollars "more" for the KN2600. Something like $500 more. If you don't mind spending more it really is a toss up as to which board to get. Both are good Boards but I think the PSR 2100 has better quality sounds in it overall compared to the KN2600. But the KN2600 has SD Memory capability which is a 'huge' advantage over the PSR 2100's 1.5Mb Flash ROM Memory. But again, the PSR 2100 has a Floppy Drive of course so it essentially has unlimited Storage too but with the KN2600 you wouldn't have to keep putting in and taking out Floppy Disks which can be a hassle sometimes. Decisions, decisions.......

Best regards,
Mike

and what about styles? People say yamaha styles are simple, canned and mechanic. What about 2600 styles.

And, what about sequencer, and the possibility to make and edit styles? Is similar in both kbs?.

Is yamaya live grand piano voice better than best piano voice on 2600?

Bluebird

To answer your questions 'in order'

1. The KN2600 Styles are very lively and dynamic in their sound and realism. It is probably a toss up depending on what suits you. My advice is try and find Demos of the KN2600 on the Net or play it in person to make a final opinion.

2. I didn't have a chance to try out the KN2600's Sequencer but from what I've read on the Net it is similar to the PSR 2100, ie., 16 track, simple record mode, step recording mode, etc. On a side note: The PPQ timing resolution on the KN2600 is only 92PPQ. The PSR 2100's PPQ is 1920 'Parts Per Quarter Note' timing resolution which is a huge difference. They say anything less than 480PPQ is not Professional in rating.

The editing ability of the Styles and sounds on the KN2600 is much greater than it is on the PSR 2100 from what I understand.

3. Yes IMO. But you may like the KN2600's Grand Piano voice better. They're both pretty decent.

Best regards,
Mike



[This message has been edited by Idatrod (edited 10-05-2003).]

Guys,
thanks so much for your advices and opinions.
Although I tried the KN-2600 and I must say it sounds really nice, easy to play because of my previous KN experience, SD feature for maximum storage capacity,. etc etc...
I am deciding towards the PSR-2100 for a couple of major reasons:
1) the price of the PSr seems more interesting (its probably a better deal overall) and I could use the $200 difference to get additional gears for my studio.
2) the Yamaha platform seems to be more popular and its easy to find thousands of new styles online giving me the ability of "renewing" the base styles almost infinitely...
3) I don't really care about the SD feature because I have a Computer based system, and I'll be storing everytning into my PC.

But ultimately I will play the PSR today at my local music store here in Ottawa (Canada) and make the final decision.

I will buy online for sure, because the price here in Ottawa is roughly $CDN 2100-2200+ taxes... that its way too much compared to the online retailers (I saw the price at $1195US online, that translates into $1,600CDN... so I save something like $CDN700 by doing this )

is there any place that you know, that has this keyboard for less than $1195? and that can ship Fedex to Canada? Let me know.
Thanks.

------------------
Cheers,

M.C.GATTO

M.C. Gatto,

I believe you have made a wise choice. I too have played the two boards side by side and there is no comparison IMO. The 2000/2100 has clean, smooth, crisp voices, that are so realistic it's nearly impossible for someone to determine if they are the real instrument or a synth. The live piano sound alone is probably among the best in the industry, and the list of sweet instruments boggles the mind and continues to expend. As for styles, there are more styles both onboard and third party for Yamaha than all other boards combined. This, plus the endless possibilities available with the Yamaha, plus great forums like this one and www.psrtutorial.com and SVPworld will provide you with unlimited support when you do encounter technical problems. As for the price, sounds like you've found a good buy there as well.

Good Luck,

Gary 8)

usually I like vey much the Yamaha Piano sounds. I have a Yahama P-80 (88keys stage piano) and I think the GrandPIano sounds amazing.

One question... has anyone tried to control the PSR2001 from a P-80 or from another 88-keys piano thru MIDI? I am used to play on the real piano keys and the full 88-keys keyboard. If there would be a rack version of the PSR2001 that would be really amazing... oh well...

I would be really interested in knowing if anyone tried that. Let me know.
Thanks again. you guys are really a great bunch of people.



------------------
Cheers,

M.C.GATTO

M.C.,
I also live in Canada and Cdn$ 2100 - 2200 is high (even for Canada). The PSR2000 was selling at approx. C$1850 at Long & McQuade here in Toronto. The PSR2100 S/B the same price. You might consider shopping around. If you order from the U.S. you have to consider the total landed cost: transportation, customs duty, taxes.etc. Let us know if you order from the U.S. and what the landed cost would be. I might consider the same route. Let me know where you make your final purchase.
Starkeeper

All of you speak about kn2600.
But there is another technics, kn2400. It is very similar to kn2600 but has not SD card, only floppy.
So, it is more similar to PSR2100, and I think is cheaper than PSR2100.

Any opinion?

There are posts similar to these in Technics forum. But (nothing new...)there, they think Technics is far better than Yamaha (styles far better, sounds far better, building keyboard far better, sd card, ...).
Here, a neutral forum but more pro-Yamaha, it seems general opinion is Yamaha is better (better sounds, etc.).

Obviously, both opinions can't be true at same time.

Why people can't be objective?



[This message has been edited by Bluebird (edited 10-06-2003).]

"Here, a neutral forum but more pro-Yamaha, it seems general opinion is Yamaha is better (better sounds, etc.)."

I don't believe it's a pro Yamaha thing as much as it is a diversity of experience by many professionals who have tried just about every keyboard that comes on the market. Nearly all seem to favor Yamaha for one reason or another, and from my personal experience, they're been the leader for more than a decade when it comes to the quality of styles, voices and operating system. Granted, there are some folks who are Technics, Roland and even Cassio fans, but most working (gigging) performers, especially those who perform for a variety of audiences with large, medium and small venues, it's going to be difficult to beat all the attributes that Yamaha has to offer. No, this is not a commercial for Yamaha (Steve), and if there was something better available, at least for my purposes, regardless of cost, I would buy it tomorrow. But for now, I, and many of my collegues, will likely stick with Yamaha.

Good Luck,

Gary

Why can't people be objective?
Because music, voices, key feel, styles, etc. are subjective.
"There is No Reality; Only Perception", Dr. Phil McGraw.
Starkeeper

Hi Bluebird,
I don't think it's so much that people can't be objective, it's just that we all have our personal likes & dislikes about keyboards.

We also have different needs depending on whether you're an entertainer ( who needs an inbuilt vocalizer and instant access to styles) or whether you're just a home hobbyist who likes to fiddle round. It also depends on the types of styles you use. Some keyboards do certain genres better than others. To me, the styles are pretty important. It's no good buying a keyboard who's styles you don't like, in the hope that 3rd party styles will solve your problem.

You really shouldn't be swayed by other peoples opinions of a certain keyboard, their personal needs may be totally different from your own.

Best to try and work out what it is that you expect from a keyboard, and then try and find one that closest suits your needs & budget. We tend to want the latest & greatest, but it's not neccesarily the one that suits us the best.

I personally did up a list of likes & dislikes. Last year I was tossing up between a Tyros & a KN7. After doing a list of features ( I was already aware of Yamaha functions as I'd owned a 9000pro) , ie sequencer functions, style creation capabilities, sound editing etc etc,
the kn7 won hands down for me. The same features that made me decide on the kn7 , may not be important to a tyros owner.

So,I really don't think it's a case of people not being objective.

best wishes
Rikki


----------------------------------

Quote from Bluebird

Why people can't be objective?

Well, I understand you, but....

I think to have different needs and preferences is ok. So, it is ok if you like a good vocalizer and direct-disk function, to go to PSR.

But a lot of opinions here and there are not about needs or preferences. They are radical opinions like "its sounds are far better", "its styles are far better"

And so, I can't understand how is it possible that a man thinks PSR sounds are far better, and other one thinks KN sounds are far better.




[This message has been edited by Bluebird (edited 10-06-2003).]

OK. I went to my local trusted music Store here in Ottawa. I bought all my studio stuff over there (and it's quite a bit.. ).
I asked the guy to set for me the PSR2001 and the Korg PA60 side by side so that I could try them both. Why the PA60? Because the same guy knows me, and he knows i'm a Korg enthusiast (I own a Trynity Rack, a Triton Studio, a T3-EX and a M1... )
Anyway, he gave me his opinion about both keyboards before I got into them, and ... he thinks the PA-60 sounds better.

So I start playing the Korg first. I was impressed. The sounds were nice, styles were sexy... overall a nice keyboard.
I was so impatient to get into the PSR2001 at that point. Just looking at the two keyboard side by side, I must say I was turned down by the PSR. It looks like a toy, compared to the PA-60. They keyboard also has a weird feeling. while the Korg keys have a nice feeling. Anyway, I started messing around with the keyboard. It took me a while to figure things out, since I never owned a Yamaha Arranger before, but after a while I started.

Well... sound after sound, style after style... I was not that impressed. Maybe I was expecting too much? I don't know, but it does not sound Professional to me. maybe I have a wrong first impression?
I left the place after 2 hours because I was so disappointed at the PSR and I was so attracted to the PA-60.

So I gave myself a break, and an opportunity to discuss these impressions with you guys.
I will go back on Thursday to make the final decision. Also, I will go back to try again the KN2600 and KN2400 (good alternative if one doesn't need SD slot)

I am all eager to hear your feedback about my impressions... please just don't shoot on the pianist

MC,
You own a Triton Studio? How good are you with it? We should chat and help each other out (or more like you helping me).

Thanks,
KN_Fan

Hello M.C.

I think you did the right thing by taking a break. I've been in music retail since 1976 and I've seen many a customer confuse themselves by trying to take more in than they can handle.

I sell Lowrey home organs. One thing we learned in the organ business is never let a customer see three organs? Why, because they will in fact get confused and won't buy anything.

I have a PSR2000, almost the same as the 2100. I think the sounds and styles and ease of play are terrific. I have tried a PA80/60. I really don't care for the Korg sound. AND everybody else who heard me play both thought the Yamaha sounded great, and the Korg sounded bad. This is very subjective.

I have not heard a KN2600, I would like to. I was going to buy one just to try it out, and sell it if I didn't like it. But the main thing I have heard about that one from different people, is that it sounds harsh, that the organ sound is thin and they are overpriced as usual.

I think if your store will let you try the keyboard at home so you have at least a couple weeks is the best way to go. Otherwise there is way too much sensory input, IMO to pick one, unless one just knocks you out with the sound, ease of operation, styles available on the internet, support etc.

If they won't let you try it out at home, maybe its worth finding someone that will do that, OR buy one with the idea you are trying it out, and you can always sell it on ebay.

Let me give you my experience as an example of me trying out a Tyros. First time, I wasn't sure if I liked it. I thought maybe my PSR2000 sounded better. Next time, I liked it a little more. The third time I fell in love with it, and people in the store were really checking me out.

Here's the funny part. I just bought a Tyros about two weeks ago. I really didn't like it at all. The sounds and balances in the room I was in sounded not that great to me. After playing with it for two weeks, I am used to it and am liking what it does more and more. The difference between my PSR2000 and the Tyros as far as sound and everything else is like night and day. Actually a different week. My 2000 sounds good, but the Tyros eats it for lunch.

Just some food for thought.

Take your time in your decision.

Best

Scott Langholff

[This message has been edited by Scott Langholff (edited 10-06-2003).]

M. C.

I know the feeling after playing the PSR2100. I play a Ketron X1 and I was thinking of selling it and buying a PSR2100. I did buy the 2100 but returned it because overall it was a disappointment to MY ears. I've heard others DonM in particular make theirs sound great. I wasn't able to do that. I wanted to like the 2100 because of all the support out there for it and it does have a ton of great features for the price. Maybe with enough tweaking I can get comfortable with it. I just ran out of time and had to send it back. I may try again with the 2100 at some point in the future.

Tom

Tom, the 2100 doesn't like the cold, wet weather up there in the North. It wasn't trying hard enough.
Seriously, you made my 2000 sound great when you were here. I'm surprised the 21K disappointed you.
DonM

If you will be using sequencer on the keyboard... then stay as far away as you can from PSRs, including the very high end PSR 9000 and PSR 900Pro... they have the worst sequencer.
What good is all that fine resolution, if the onboard sequencer is useless.

I have the PSR2000 for about two years now, and haven't recorded a SINGLE sequence on it. It's too much waste of time.

I am not sure about the KNs.

[This message has been edited by Shakil (edited 10-09-2003).]

So that meal you had for lunch was only perceived? > Yes; your senses, ie., 'sight' saw what you were eating but does that make it any less real? Try and convince your stomach that it is still hungry after eating your lunch and you became satiated Kevin. If the meal wasn't real but only perceived you would still be hungry. But since you ate the meal and became satiated you are no longer hungry. That is reality. In fact, in as little as 40 days you would no longer be amongst the living because the lunch you ate wasn't 'real' but only perceived according to you. And that's just taking into account FOOD. How about only perceiving water? You would kick the bucket in as little as 3 days. On your epitaph the fitting words: Here lies Kevin, oops!! I mean here kevin is perceived to be lying under this perceived 6 feet of soil. Get real!

Best regards,
Mike



[This message has been edited by Idatrod (edited 10-06-2003).]

Are here any kn2600 demos to listen too?

Mike,
LOL. Very good Mike. I'll try to get real. I appreciate people who think outside the box.
I know there are Technics KN2400/KN2600 out there. How about some demos.
When I first got my Roland EM20 I loved the piano, especially the lower notes. When I got the Yamaha PSR550, I still loved the Roland piano.
Then after some tweaking I decided that I loved the Yamaha over the Roland. I could hear some distorsion on the lower notes, especially when playing more then one note at a time on the Roland.
Last week I was on holiday and played the Roland all week. When I came back to Toronto Sunday night, I played the Yamaha again, and thought to myself, that the Roland piano sounds better. ?????
So. What's my point. If I can't decide which piano I prefer after 2 years of owning both keyboards, then for two different people to have differing views is possible. It is very subjective, even though the differneces are real.
Starkeeper

If Mike considers the Technics KN2600 organs to be thin, would I consider them to be thin as well? Hmmmm.
Star

I agree. I don't know how much diffrient the PSR-2000's sequencer is from my PSR-A1000, but the sequencer is terrible and very unusable. I also tried to do some advance recording but found that I ran out of polyphony fast (only 32) which brings me to quesntion why the heck did yamaha even bother to put a sequencer in the PSR-1000/PSR-A1000/PSR-1100 when there isn't enough polyphony for the onboard sounds in the keyboard.

weird?

"KORG IS KING" for sequencing beyond the shadow of a doubt. I can sequence a tune and name it on my i30 before others can even name the tune on their arranger keyboards. Ha! Ha!

But, if you just play and sing and don't have a need to sequence like I do, most any arranger keyboard in my opion should do a good job. To me styles are more important than sounds. Sounds are more important to some others.

So, it's what turns you on and not what turns other's on. It takes a while to figure this out. After a couple of years of this squabbling, I've come to realize some still haven't figured this out. Get what you like and fulfills your needs. Not what I like.

Hi,
by the sounds of things , you are lucky to actually have access to try all 3 keyboards before you buy.

There's been posts from members who don't have the luxury of even being able to see one of them, let alone all 3 brands.

Wise move not to buy on the spur of the moment. Check them out and make sure they have the features you're looking for.

As for Technics
There are some good reasons for going for a kn with sd card functions.

Faster loading & saving of styles.
No disk swapping ( KN2600 doesn't have a floppy drive)
With optional Panasonic SD Audio Writing Kit( sd card reader & jukebox softeware) , you can play audio files on your kn.

If time spent loading styles from floppy into a kn2400 isn't a problem, then, you could save money, as I gather it's a fair bit cheaper than the kn2600.

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by M.C. GATTO:

So I gave myself a break, and an opportunity to discuss these impressions with you guys.
I will go back on Thursday to make the final decision. Also, I will go back to try again the KN2600 and KN2400 (good alternative if one doesn't need SD slot)

M.C.
Did you try the accoustic piano on the PA60? Korg is not famous for their accoustic pianos.
Star

One more thought. You are choosing between PA60, PSR2100, KN2600 and KN2400.
Star

Hi Bluebird,
I suppose if your first priority is a good onboard vocalizer, then a psr would suit you better than a kn.
Direct disk function wouldn't be as bigger issue if you were going for a kn2600, because the sd card loads styles and songs very quickly (roughly 3 to 4 seconds) wheras loading the same style from floppy ( kn2400) takes a fair bit longer.(
As for styles and sounds being better on one keyboard or another.
I tend to think it's in the ear of the beholder. I noticed sounds tend to grow on you. The 3 keyboards I had , all sounded so different. I prefer the sounds ( that I use to play melody ) on my kn7 to my ex 9000pro. To my ears , they sound more realistic. I preferred the ( melody) sounds of my 9000pro to my VA7.
As for styles, the best thing to do is try and play both , and see who's styles YOU prefer. Main thing to check is that the styles are going to be useable for you.
Most keyboards have a good mixture of styles, but one brand may do a better job on modern music like rock, pop, ballads, wheras another brand may do a better job of latin, marches, waltzes. If you only play rock & pop, then you'd be more likely to go for the one that does a good job on those styles.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bluebird:
[B]Well, I understand you, but....

Yes I've tried the Piano on the PA-60 and its OK. Actually sounds wise, the PA-60 sounds are the same as the Triton sounds.... so you cannot beat that.
However I am well aware of the Korg pianos (as I said I own korg gear since 1989) and that their pianos usually suck. The Pa-60 has a different Piano, that they made just for the PA series, and its OK (not as good as my Yamaha p-80 digital Piano, but close).
I'm going to use this keyboard mainly for its arrangement styles rather than for its solo instruments, because I have quite a lot of other stuff that I usually use in my studio to play solo parts.

I am still VERY undecided about this choice...
and sometimes reading about keyboards does not help at all because on paper they all look good to a certain extent.
I think feeling and ear are more important that features sometimes. (and of course money too )

Arrangement style wise, I had the impression that the PSR2001 was not too much on the PRO side... the PA-60 gave me instead a more positive impression.
Also, the styles that I tried on the Yamaha sounded more directed for a PIano Bar player or for a Wedding player, rather than for a real music production.
Any thoughs on this from you guys?

let me know.
by the way.... thanks so much for all of your input, you are really helping me a lot just by giving me your opinions.

------------------
Cheers,

M.C.GATTO

[This message has been edited by M.C. GATTO (edited 10-07-2003).]

MC..

I have the PA60's big brother ( PA80 ) and the PSR2000. Each has distinctive features I like. As for the styles, for live work, the Yamaha's are a bit more generic, therefore I find that sometimes they work better for live play. Accurate emulation ( instrument sounds ) is not quite that critical here for me. Of course, my solution with the PA80 us to turn some of the instrument parts off.

In the studio, for me the quality of sounds and effects of the style instruments favors the PA80. I wouldn't use many of the Yamaha styles here, and really some of the style parts don't sound very convincing in my ears.

I don't use the internal sequencers very much in either, but I do use the pattern sequncers in both. I find the PA80's to be very complete and easy to use, but the 2000's has better note resolution and it allows for midi sync when recording. This is a major shortfall of the PA80s pattern sequencer. The external clock function does not work with the pattern sequencer.

I like the panel voices on both. The PA80 allows for much deeper patch editing, so it is clearly my choice for any homemade synth patches. The PA80 also allows for 3 panel voices ( on right hand split ) to be used in a combination, the PSR2k only 2. I like the effects overall better on the PA80, but the 2k has an advantage in the way they are applied. The PSR keeps chorus and reverb effects seperate from the insertion effects. The PA80- allows for 4 insertion efffects, but only two can be used in a panel voice or combi, the other 2 go to the style section. Of course, many of the effects are combined on the PA80 ( EG,.. chorus and distortion = 1 effect ), but I like the actual layout of the effects better on the 2k.

Voices are a tossup.. I like the drums and bass better on the PA80. Ditto the organs. Acoustic and electric guitars are good on both, except I think the 2k's distorted guitars are horrible. The PA80 allows for a "key off" effect, so you can use a key click or pick noise and put it into a patch and it will sound when pressure is released from the key. Makes for some very nice ac guitar emulations. I like the 2k's ac pianos better, but the PA80s aren't bad. I like the PA80's electric pianos better. Wind / horn instruments are good on both, but the 2k has a few I like a little better.

Key feel makes a big differnece to me and clearly I like the korgs better here. I find the PSR line to have very flimsy and generally poor feeling keys.

It's almost apples and oranges here. Both the PA80 / 60 and PSR 2k 2100 have a means to the same end... to be excellent arranger board. The approach is just somewhat different between the two manufacturers, and really, you'll need to try them for yourself to see which approach you prefer.

AJ

Ho All,
Yesterday I went again and tried the three boards, the KN2400/2600 the PSR2100 and the Korg PA-60.

the Yahama PSR2100 its out of the race the first impressions I had, were just confirmed. The look and feel of the keyboard is not convincing either, at least to my ears.
The only great feature I'll miss is the Vocal Harmonizer... but that is not the main reason why I'm buying an arranger. (however I must admit its a really nice one )

The KN-2400 and KN2600 sounds nice. Number of styles are a lot (more than the PSR and the PA-60) but on all thoise styles only a few are very interesting. I mean, they seem to be almost the replica of my old KN-3000, so don't add any new aspect to my ideas.

However, the fact that I can read and play no problem the Kn-3000 songs that I have, it's a plus.

The Korg... I found it superior to the other two in a few aspects. Mainly the sounds and arrangements are more interesting to me. And I know this is a personal feeling, but overall it sounds more "Pro" then the other two. The keys of the keyboard feel also better under my hands. Even if the KN's are as good as the PA=60.

To tell you the truth, I am not convinced like 100% yet. yes, the korg is great, but not as great as I wanted to be.
But looks like there is no other alternative riht now, at least not in the same range of price.

Please.......... tell me what to do

------------------
Cheers,

M.C.GATTO

perhaps, wait

or buy an used or second hand kb...


I would go to kb what I had better feeling.
Specially, I would go to the kb with I were better with its philosophy.
And I would get special atention to sounds and styles.
To buy a kb I don't like its sounds and styles... is not for me.

You might find a used PA80 if you search enough, for just a little more than a new PA60. The PA80 has a vocal board option ( it isn't built in ). The harmonizer sounds very good in it, but doesn't have the presets and some of the options that the PSR2100's has, so you have to set it to where you like.

I liked the 2000 I have a lot, especially the harmonizer and the multipads, but after months of playing with it, I still can't adjust to the key feel the way I'd like to, so it is going going....

Everyone needs to know that the sound engine(module) whatever in the KN2600 is not the same module as the KN7000. The KN2600 I played yesterday didn't sound anywhere near as good as the KN7000 sounds. The sounds of the PA 60 where very competitive to the KN7000 for my taste.

If only the Korg dummies would put the sequencer of the i30, the sounds of the PA80 and a modern harmonizer in a new model, everyone's problems would be solved for a few months. Ha Ha

Hmmmm. Maybe the the PA1x is it ? We can hope can't we ?
Won't matter much for me though. I'll stick with the PA80 for at least another year or two. Just bought a Motif ES and next item on the list is Reason software synth. No PA1x in this budget, for a while anyway.

Cheers,

AJ

Get the PSR2100 and also purchase the HDM2 at http://www.2av.com.ua/indexe.htm. Then you can get many properties of a hard drive on your PSR2100 for just $200 - still $300 less than the KN2600.

Beakybird

It is curious.

Why in U.S.A. KN2600 is priced 400 $ more than PSR2100, and here, in Europe, both have similar prices??.
You may see european prices (Germany) at:
http://www.digitalpianoshop.de/index.html

To clarify Boos statement:
The Backing sequencer in the Korgs works different from other brands. In truth, you are only "triggering" a note (or notes) to send to the sequencer, not the whole arranger, so polyphony is less of an issue. Also size of files.
The backing sequencer allows you to still make fill ins and adjustments after you record the song. No one else works like this to my knowledge. The full 16 track sequencer is also present in the Korgs, but they work like a conventional unit should....like all the rest.
For laying down simple arrangements, and adding a few parts over top later - the Backing sequencer is very easy, but it's not as specific as a full sequence, because you are using generic patterns as the base tracks.
Bottom line: If you like the styles....you'll love the sequences you make, and you don't need to be a drummer to program the rhythm parts.
Even a bricklayer can do it.
(atta boy Boo!)

OK... I finally made the move

I went and bought myself a Korg PA-60 on Saturday... I also got a Digitech Harmonizer (external unit) so I have more flexibility compared to the PA-80 with the internal Harmonizer card, and I saved something like $400 that I "used" to get me a professional Studio Headset (AKG)

After 2 days of playing this thig almost for 10 hours/day... I must say... I am REALLY HAPPY about it! Out of the Box is great. And if you start tweaking and messing around with the setting to tune the board to your preferences... you get amazing things out of it! I just re-recorded and re-arranged on the fly some of my songs... and the result is like ... WOW!!!

So far so good...

I will post a review of the PA-60 in the Korg section if anyone is interested take a look there.

Thanks again for all of your help in helping me making this decision.
Here in canada in Thanksgiving Day today... so HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all of you !!



------------------
Cheers,

M.C.GATTO

Yeah, baby. I LOVE happy endings.

Congrats on your purchase. I got to try out one of those PA60's.
Did you buy it at a music store or online? If you bought it online, where?
May I ask how much you paid in Cdn funds?
Starkeeper

Hi,
I got it from a local store here in Ottawa (Digitalmusicentre). The deal with the PA-60 is... if you find one... get one. They are discontinued in Canada, as of October 2003.
Korg will sell it only in Europe and US. Canada will only get the PA-80 and the new PA-1XPro.
I got a pretty good deal, paid $1850CDN.
Considring that the PA-80 is like $2700CDN, I think the price is right for the PA-60. Additionally, I got a Digitech Harmonizer (for $299) that works way better than the one used inside the Yamaha or the PA-80 and it's a rack mounted unit, so fits perfectly my studio rack .
I would not go for the PA-80... too expensive for what you get in comprison with the PA-60...

So far, today is DAY 4 and I LOVE this arranger. I also found TONS of websites where I can download stuff for it for free (styles, drums, etc...)

------------------
Cheers,

M.C.GATTO

Shakil

Can't speak for the PSR9000 or Pro or the KN's for that matter, but I must disagree with you about sequencing on the PSR2000. After getting to know the OS I have found it very easy to record on this board, be it quick record 'live' numbers of fully arranged multi track compositions. I wonder what your problems are?
There are many others who seem to have managed as well. Have a listen to some on Joe Water's www.psrtutorial.com Performers Pages.

Will

Absolutely UD. A very user friendly instrument when it comes to sequencing and one of the only ones that I'll ever use the internal sequencer in ( the Motif Es is useful too ). Believe it or not, the other arranger that had the same functions ability to change drum fill, drum patterns, arranger patterns, chords.. etc AFTER a sequence was recorded was the Casio MZ2000. It had other excellent features too, includiong an internal midi file to style convertor and very useful sliders. It was the easiest arranger to operate in real time of any that I had. If it had some better patterns and some better basic sounds, and maybe some after market support, I would still have mine..

Since it has been acknowledged that it was somewhat of a KN5000 clone, I would wonder if any of the KN boards had thjese functions as well.

MC Gatto... Hope that PA60 is for you everything the PA80 has been for me. After having mine for 2 and a half years, I still have yet to try any arranger that I like better.( I've tried a lot of them ). It isn't perfect, and I would have liked at least one more fill per style, but when I compare it overall to any other arranger, it's still the best one for me to use.

AJ