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#147974 - 12/01/04 06:43 PM
Laziness amonst todays generation to learn an Instrument...
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
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Originally posted by Dnj 12/01/04: "Laziness amonst todays generation to learn an Instrument...." :
I see it every day......the younger generation want to go the easy DJ/Electronic route vs taking lessons, and learning to play an instrument resulting in the ongoing demise of Live Music as we grew up knowing.Is it too far gone an issue, are parents at fault, is society at fault, is their too many choices, I just can't pinpont it?.... How do you see it? What is really going on,,,,? Donny, perhaps we're merely victims of modern society. It's just another symptom of the INSTANT gratification we've grown to expect, partly because of the fast paced society we're living in, which means less & less time available to devote to becoming better musicians. My former vocal coach (Judy Davis) always reminded her students that this instant gratification trend began way back with the onset of television, instant cereal, & the microwave generation were we came to EXPECT instant results with everything. With the computer internet age, everything has speed up that much faster. The FACT is, that art & music are akin to making fine wine. Yes, you can produce cheap wine (albeit cheap tasting too ) quickly, but FINE wine takes years to age. The same goes for musicianship & other artistic creative endevours as well. Regretably, people today are finding less & less time (impatience) to put in the dues (hours & years) required to become good musicians, and instead, opting for the a 'quick buck' gig solution, relying on technology to cover up for their musicianship deficiencies. This in turn gives the public the impression that anybody can become a musician (aka star) now, and that hutsfa & bravado matter more than musicianship to become a pro. Thankfully there are audiences out there that still APPRECIATE musicianship & willing to pay to see music performed live (as well as the personal creative expression that go along with it). How long this lasts, I don't know, but I may have to go down with the sinking ship if it comes to that. Scott
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#147975 - 12/01/04 08:35 PM
Re: Laziness amonst todays generation to learn an Instrument...
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Senior Member
Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 2202
Loc: Dayton, OH USA
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I agree with Scott's sentiment.
IMO, the recent trend will intensify over the next few years. I see nothing changing the current landscape whereas technology enables many under-talented users to appear impressively skilled.
My belief, is that those players who DO have actual skill and technique will outshine the others in some very limited environments. The two groups will seem as one to the masses.
I must recognise the natural change in popular music that we've seen in the last 20 years. Punk & New wave was the popular style back then...its life cycle took it into the late 80's early 90's when more earthy sounding bands like REM, Nirvana, etc. then took center stage. Could we suggest that there is a higher degree of musicianship to be found in REM than Flock of Seagulls? I'd like to think that at least, given my appreciation for REM.
The only thing constant in music is change. Gershwin was too modern for many, as was Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, the Beatles, the Who, Elvis Costello, Prince, REM, Nirvana, the Goo-Goo Dolls, etc...
As arranger players, we have the unique opportunity/challenge to be able to interpret a variety of music for OUR audiences. We play a different role than the "big names" do in music. I honestly think that a trained, skilled, creative arranger user will be able to play well above a level of a untrained user who has plenty of money to toss around.
...and if we don't...then shame on us "trained" performers. Perhaps the accessability of this technology may serve to keep the rest of us honest. Add songs to our play list that don't necessarily fit in easily-but rather, with our skills and an openess for new interpretations and creativity, we can add our own mark on unexpected songs.
Bill in Dayton
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Bill in Dayton
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#147982 - 12/02/04 07:50 AM
Re: Laziness amonst todays generation to learn an Instrument...
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Senior Member
Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 3781
Loc: San Jose, California
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I have a couple of thoughts on this thread that I thought I would share with you from my perspective. I am 73 years old now so I started on my learning curve in 1937. I think I am very typical of that time. I hated music. I hated piano lessons. I hated practicing several hours a day. I hated the piano teacher. I hated my parents for putting me through this agony. Seven long years of classical music. WHY? Because my parents liked it. I never did learn to like it even thought I learned to play it well. I also had to play at the cutsey recitals about once a month for my mothers instant gratification. I also hated that. Now, having said all that is it any wonder kids don't want to learn music fundementals and theory. When I was 12 I was walking home from town, (about 5 miles) after the movie and as I walked past this country tavern I heard the most amazing music coming out the window. It was swing, and I loved it. I could see the piano player and I knew who he was. I was at his house the next day begging him to give me piano lessons to learn to play his "STUFF". He shoo'd me away time after time. You see that is the problem then and now. The good musicians don't want to teach kids their craft. They only want to gig and make the big bucks. I badgered this honky tonk piano player for months until her finally relented but only after I threatened to burn his house down when he wasn't home. He taught me to play his "Stuff", and I found out that I actually loved music and have been playing every since. I put my first band together as a sophmore in highschool, about age 16. I studied horns, accordion, and organ also. I taught kids for a couple of years. I went through college working in a piano bar 6 nights a week. I see that there are two problems to kids learning music today. Their parents and the lack of teachers that will satisfy both the parent and the kid. That is my 10 cents worth for what it is worth if in fact it is worth anything Best to all PS: After Reading Ric's Post following mine, it occurred to me that I ought to add. I raised 8 kids. They were constantly sourrounded by music, mine and others. We had lots of jam sessions in our rec room. One son took up Organ. I would not teach him and got a teacher for him. He soon switched to Trumpet. These were two instruments I played. You can read between the lines here. He then swithced to guitar which he took to like a duck to water. In the last 35 years he has become an accomplished musician and band owner/leader. The rest of the kids. Two of them in their mid adult years took up the piano with lessons. They are almost competent parlor players. The rest of them? They play CD's and have no desire to play an instrument but when they come here they want me to play for hours on end. Go figure? Bebop [This message has been edited by BEBOP (edited 12-02-2004).]
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BEBOP
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#147983 - 12/02/04 08:05 AM
Re: Laziness amonst todays generation to learn an Instrument...
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Member
Registered: 08/07/02
Posts: 135
Loc: Italy
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I have three daughters, currently 9, 13 and 17, and I pushed all three to music.
Sara is 17 and learned piano from 6 to 12, then she discovered her passion for flute, so she reduced her piano effort, moving to the flute, where now she's pretty good. But, apart from the instrument, I am very satisfied about her knowledge of music, her ability to read music and play with apparently no effort.
This same situation applies to Marta, the 13 one, which started harp when she was 7. With highs and lows she's still learning with very good results: she won a couple of contests and she's very "musical" if you know what I mean. Now she started to discover classic guitar, but harp is still her main instrument.
Finally, the little one, Camilla, who started violin 2 years ago and alredy reads music as I read messages in this forum.
Why have I told you all this? Because there is a big, extremely big effort on parents side. I stressed them for years about how good is music and how good is knowing it and how good is achieving the ability of playing an instruments. There has been highs and lows, and they have been about to dismiss a couple of time, but we all have supported each other and still they are.
So, todays generation suffers from that "everything and now" instant gratification, but we (parents, I mean) have to play our parts.
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#147984 - 12/02/04 11:12 AM
Re: Laziness amonst todays generation to learn an Instrument...
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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Bebop, I can relate to you a bit I myself am one of 8 kids. Interesting thing is there is NO musical talent in my siblings. Sure they all tried an instrument here and there, but gave up after a few lessons. This benefited me because I got a lot of instruments handed to me from them We got a piano when I was quite young. No one was interested but me. Eventually my parents put me in lessons, and I too hated them with a passion. Couldn't stand the recitals. I quit the lessons, but was still determined to play because I enjoyed the music. I ended up teaching myself piano (can't really read music though... Just know what goes together from years of practice). I also taught myself guitar, and drums. I myself get frustrated with the (instant gratification music approach). Like others said its just the times. I know individuals who rap,and so forth who call themselves (seasoned musicians, and can't play a single instrument). They use royalty free loops with programs like Acid. They think that just because they can copy and past a loop, and burn a CD it makes them a musician. This is the approach with a lot of music today. I remember for a while everyone was ripping music off of other musicians, They'd pay the royalties and release a new version of an old song. There will always be a need for (real) musicians. The piano has been around for a long time, and I don't see musicians getting phased out any time soon. Can't remember the last time I saw a rapper performing at a wedding Squeak
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GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#147988 - 12/02/04 12:59 PM
Re: Laziness amonst todays generation to learn an Instrument...
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Member
Registered: 02/27/04
Posts: 741
Loc: Victoria, British Columbia
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RicFreak...Good for you and your daughters. That's great to hear. My 22year old son, got his first guitar 6 months ago, and asked if I could teach him to play a "song or two". I told him I'd go one better and if he could devote the time to practicing, then I would teach him the basic understanding of his instrument...what the notes are, where to find them, how to find them and the mathematical relation to one another for chord building, and then it was up to him to do the intense work of repetition until it set in, but only if he wanted to. I didn't know how he was progressing until 2 weeks ago. I was noodling on the keys when he dropped by, asked what I was playing, and if he could jam along. He picked up one of my acoustics and joined in on "Layla" in minutes. Feels kinda Good. ------------------ ...L
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...shboom
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#147989 - 12/02/04 01:28 PM
Re: Laziness amonst todays generation to learn an Instrument...
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Member
Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1704
Loc: Toronto
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Originally posted by brickboo: Probably many people would like to learn music and can't afford $25,$35, or $50 an hour for lessons, especially if they have 3 or 4 kids.
That's the position that I'm in, but I was thinking, what would I need a teacher for? If you want to learn to read sheet music, just record yourself on a MIDI file and print it out. Does it match the sheet? Don't know what the timing is, input the notes in a sequencer and play it. That's what it's supose to sound like. Posture, postioning, attack, hmmmm? Starkeeper
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I play Roland EM20 and Yamaha PSR550
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#147992 - 12/02/04 04:06 PM
Re: Laziness amonst todays generation to learn an Instrument...
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Member
Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 187
Loc: Amersfoort, Netherlands
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I have a daughter and I wanted her to play music too, but didn't want to push. I gave her a keyboard when she was rather small, because she showed interest in music when it was on television. She saw I was enjoying it and I was always moving and dancing on music. But she wasn't really interested in that toyish keyboard. The guitar was too big for her, so I tried to get her on the ukelele. Nope, not interested. She was interested in dancing though and did Jazzballet when she was about 8 years old. Later on she went on to another danceschool, but stopped when she was about 14. In the meantime I bought a bigger keyboard - a more realistic kind. She tried, but I saw she didn't have feeling for it. Suddenly she showed interest in drums. I tried her to start on electronic drums, but she wanted real drums! She has been taking lessons now for 2 years (she will be 18 in january). But dancing is really her thing and I drive her every wednesday to Amsterdam to Hip-Hop-lessons, where she is dancing to Usher and other Urban music. And I watch and enjoy it. I enjoy the music too. I have come to value the rapscene of today, because there are some very good productions. I just saw the clip on MTV of Jesus Walks - a very impressive video and music production. (there are actually two video's of this rap). I like singers like Christina Aguilera and Justin Timberlake and rappers like Eminem and Nelly (I really like the beat on "hot in herre"). And that small girl Christina Millian wrote some very good songs. She wrote Play, sung by Jennifer Lopez. Recently I saw a 1989 documentary on the rap scene. I was impressed with black teens who are poor and use their body as musical instruments and rap with very interesting rhythmic patterns. They didn't have money to buy instruments and made use of whatever they had to express themselves with. Some of these "boys" live in Beverley Hills now. On the other hand there are the richer boys and girls that had every opportunity and play an instrument and compose music, write lyrics etc. For instance Alicia Keys, who also sings with Usher, another very musical guy. Alicia performed at the North Sea Jazz Festival in The Hague. There is a lot of music that goes around and a lot of musical children too. But there is not only music, but also different art-forms that have connections to music, like dancing and mixing (the "DJ/electronic route"). The many danceforms, like hiphop, lock'n'pop, streetdance,electric boogie, etc. are inspiring and far more sophisticated than the dances of the sixties and seventies. Sorry guys, but I really love it today. And "Laziness"? I don't think so! ------------------ drdalet
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#147993 - 12/02/04 05:40 PM
Re: Laziness amonst todays generation to learn an Instrument...
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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Posted by: Alone&Forsaken (AKA: possibly 4Track) "squeak_D I'm working on a composition that I'd like some feedback on from members here. It's probably not everyone's style of music though. It falls under the category R&B/Hip Hop. I recorded 6 tracks. I played the drums manually for a nice slow groove (didn't have anything remotely related to the drum track on the WK. I think it sounds really good... I was listening to Alicia Keys latest album today and sort of got enspired by a few of her songs. (she has a nice slow swing to her music, with that hip hop twist). The beauty of it is I used all GM voices and it turned out great! If anyone is interested in checking out the few measures I did just reply and I'll send it to ya. Thanks, Squeak" You just say whatever whenever...and never post up ANY viable music to back up your blah blah blah. Sad and I hope IM not the only one here that has noticed. Plus speaking in a topic about lazy musicians is kinda screwed up when you just posted some "guitar in a box" software the other day you couldn't wait to try out. http://www.originalz.com/casio/casio_bbs/viewtopic.php?t=88&sid=b6c33a9a9a9f17 0e96e6c2c7b3fd5ddb ---------------------------------- Gee you take something I posted on the CASIO forum on a completely different user forum outside the Zone and post it here??? Interesting. I had numerous people email from that forum and I shared it with them. I don't have the means to post on the web as Starkeeper stated. Hmmm your profile says you just joined yesterday, which should mean you wouldn't know anyone here yet, but your single me out and say:"You just say whatever whenever...and never post up ANY viable music to back up your blah blah blah." If you just joined how do you know what I have and haven't posted?????? Nigel I think someone's back. 4track if you're back just email me dude if you have something to say. Don't waste the space and time of others here. Squeak [This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-02-2004).]
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GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#147999 - 12/06/04 04:13 PM
Re: Laziness amonst todays generation to learn an Instrument...
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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I can read. Sorry just everyone else around here ive seen share legit musical ideas and so on. The only postings ive seen of yours have been "unfinished 30sec clip" "wow guitar on keyboard just got easy" then I see stuff like "guitarist, drummer, keyboardist of twenty years ------------------------------------
I was interested in the quitar unit because I was curious to see how it operated and how the sound quality was. Yes this caught my interest. I was interested to see what the user (could program) the unit to do. Nothing wrong with that. So what if my clips were short. I don't have the means to post on the web. Am I the only one who doesn't post music on a regular basis?? (ABSOLUTELY NOT).
This would be more so enhanced by your "keyboard history" paper...not to insult any members here, I just found it odd that with your twenty years of playing you dint have any real world connections...band members...past bands...recordings...or anything independent to offer as part of that paper. Hell you asked "who is a famous keyboard player" ------------------------------
I had several players I planned on using and know quite a few off the top of my head. I was looking for others that were considered famous, but not so well known to the public. I credited numerous groups in my paper regarding their keyboardists. I discussed great musicians like Herbie Hancock, Ray Charles, Chuck Berry and countless others.
"Nigel I think someone's back. 4track if you're back just email me dude if you have something to say. Don't waste the space and time of others here.
Squeak"
Sorry, but everyone that doesn't agree with you ( or just questions ) isn't some nightmare from your past. The fact that someone else might have brought up the things that cause you an involuntary reaction now...makes me think maybe my early observations are correct. -----------------------------------
Ask any questions you like, I really don't care, and what I said was WELL WARRANTED based on what you said and the date you registered to the forum. You're either someone we've all had a disagreement with in the past who has disapeared on more than one occasion, or you're just a lurker to the forum who finally joined, and if you're a lurker what right do you have to criticize me? If you're new as to the date on your registration what have you shared and contributed to this forum? I've been a member here for 4 years--how about yourself?? Being a member doesn't require me to post music.
I used to peform with groups on a regular basis, but you know some people here are married and have families with children and can no longer perform or devote the time we once had to music. I am one of those people. I don't have time to perform anymore, so I get my enjoyment from personal play at home. I'm a full time college student, full time husband, and a full time father. My life is very busy. I'm thankful for the little time that I have to play at home. Just because I don't post music doesn't make me any less of a musician. Yes I have years of music experience, that I have shared with other memebers here in posts and private email as well. Once I start getting more personal time I'll start submitting music to the forum. Again what have you done? What have you posted to this forum?
Squeak
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#148000 - 12/07/04 12:20 PM
Re: Laziness amonst todays generation to learn an Instrument...
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Member
Registered: 02/20/04
Posts: 84
Loc: Amsterdam,,The Netherlands
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Hmmm...
Scott - those are very broad brush strokes you are making there...and I have to say I do not share your sentiments.
I have two sons aged 8 and 10 and a 41 year old wife who surround my life in "Modern Rock" - Linkin Park, Creed, Nickleback to you and me. Not my favorite.
Both my sons have chosen to learn "conventional" musical instruments - Sax and Acoustic Guitar. And both really like it. I never pushed them into these instruments and I was prepared to essentially allow them to learn any instrument they wanted. Their music-school, run by the local council, has a waiting list for the sax, flute, piano and guitar.
I, on the other hand, have the PSR 2000 keyboard...
I think that it's hard to generalise.
Jerry Amsterdam
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Jerry Norbury Amsterdam
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#148001 - 12/07/04 01:32 PM
Re: Laziness amonst todays generation to learn an Instrument...
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
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Originally posted by jeremy_norbury: Scott - those are very broad brush strokes you are making there...and I have to say I do not share your sentiments. . . Both my sons have chosen to learn "conventional" musical instruments - Sax and Acoustic Guitar. And both really like it. I never pushed them into these instruments and I was prepared to essentially allow them to learn any instrument they wanted. Their music-school, run by the local council, has a waiting list for the sax, flute, piano and guitar. Jermemy: I think it's TERRIFIC to hear that both your kids are enjoying learning to play a musical instrument, but .... The KEY difference between your situation and so many other families (especially many here in the US) is that music is increasingly less stressed, and even dropped from the school cirruculum altogether. Luckily, because you're a musician yourself, your sons have gotten a lot of EXPOSURE to both 'your' type of music, as well as contemporary music of today, as well as attend a school which actually 'includes' a dedicated music program. Unfortuantely, this is NOT the case with many (most?) families today, and many kids are given no exposure to develop an appreciation for music other than rap/hip hop. - Scott
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#148004 - 12/07/04 06:12 PM
Re: Laziness amonst todays generation to learn an Instrument...
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
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Originally posted by jeremy_norbury: Obviously different here. In The Netherlands the music schools are run by the city councils and are available to everyone at very reasonable costs. I believe this highlights the dramatic difference between the European & recent American public education system and what has lead to far less exposure and music appreciation beyond contemporary & commercial hip hop & rap by so many american young people today. When I was growing up, I was fortunate enough to be exposed to many types of music (from classical, jazz, country, to contemporary rock, and world). Yet, I have friends of my same generation in their 30's, who may recognize composer names like: Bach, Hadyn, Glenn Miller, and even the Beatles, but aren't able to recognize songs written by them. I think it's important to not only enjoy the contemporary music of today, but to also become exposed & develop at least some appreciation of music from past generations as well. This gives the listener a deeper appreciation of music in general, because it highlights where we came from and how music has evolved thru the years. Exposure to different styles & genres (from world to jazz to classic, and hip hop/rap) broadens our perspective as musicians as well, giving us new musical ideas to create from. Interestingly enough, many American Musicians (especially jazz & classical) are finding greater audience interest & appreciation, and greater financial reward, performing in Europe & Japan. Scott
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