Yes folks you heard it right.....after using a laptop on stage for the last few years while performing with my KB it is really becoming a Pain in the Butt with the advent and popularity of a Karaoke Bar thinking public who looks at your performing and doesnt see anything EXCEPT the LAPTOP SCREEN and is totally oblivious to you as a LIVE MUSICIAN doing your thing.....all they know is "hey theres a screen that he's reading Lyrics from" "oh boy Im gonna go over there and ask him if I can sing a song" or "hey Joey go over there and ask that guy if you sing some Sinatra"
The mere fact is this you can be the greatst player in the world but if they see that Screen your a gonner for legitamacy in their eyes due to the publics lack of knowledge of this "thing of ours! the OMB show.." Last week a woman stuck here head in between me & the laptop screen while IM playing & singing!! to look at the scren and says to me "Hey wheres the words? [which arent there..] & " what else do you have that I can sing?" as GOOD as a Laptop is to use Live, is as BAD as it is in another way! What YOU think is normal is so Bizzarr to the publics eye when they hear all kinds of music and only SEE One Person sitting there playing it all somehow as they GUESS DJ?, KARAOKE? KB PLAYER, LIP SYNCING?
etc etc its getting weird when 80% of what the public sees nowadays is DJ's, "K" artists, etc etc etc etc typw entertainment vs the "LIVE PLAYER" anymore......with this in mind and trying stay belivable & Still entertain MY LARGE DANCE CROWDS in the WAY THAT I HAVE TO DO IT by playing live styles & singing as much as possible....peppered with SMF & Mp3's...
IM looking at alernatives to the LAPTOP style usage, I have a few ideas........we'll see what turns up...have you had any experieces too?

Your thoughts?

The lip syncing one is the best I ever heard. A woman actually came up to me one night and told me I wasn't playing or singing, I was lip syncing. My response to her was "Who was I lip syncing to? Was it Sinatra, or Tony Bennett?" If I was going to lip sync, why would I do it to myself? And catering people always get miffed when I ask them to remove the "DJ table" from the bandstand. They look at me like I'm from Mars. I've quit using labtops. I just use the G-1000. I can play SMF's thru it but I ues them sparingly, just for major dance tunes. I try and do as much as I can without relying on all the extra stuff. The downside to that is it does somewhat limit me as to what kind of gigs I can go after. I've been thinking of adding a DJ setup to my mix to take care of the newer stuff, much of which I wouldn't want to play myself. Has anyone done this and what is your experience with it?

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

Joe take a look at the Ketron Midjay
http://www.ketronus.com/midjay.htm

A friend of mine who plays sax/piano/keyboards did this for a number of years ...he would play kb for the ceremony, piano and mix in sax with backing tracks for the cocktail hour, and add that to DJing for the reception ... it helped that his son-in-law also did DJ and radio work and kept him up-to-date... it worked well for him until he got tired of hauling all that 'stuff' around ... now he does mostly ceremoies and/or cocktail hours on piano or kb ...
t.

Not one playing live (yet), I'm not qualified from experience about using a laptop...however...it is refreshing for me to continue working out songs by using styles and registrations only. I find myself very busy pushing buttons and looking as if I am a musician/singer. I'm practing audience participation by memorization and keeping my eyes off the keys as much as possible. Next, I'll incorporate some SMF's and sequences that I have harmony to, but hopefully limited.
Having fun with the PA50.

Donny ... Do you think all that stuff doesn't happen if you DON'T use a lap-top ?!? ... I don't use one and it happens all the time ...
When someone comes up to me and looks at the kb and says "what other songs do you have in there?" , I tell them "they aren't in THERE, they are in here, here, and here, and point ot my head, heart and hands !!!
t.

You are so right Tony. It seems that almost anyone under the age of 40 or so just does not understand what live music is. I cannot begin to count the number of times over the last few years that the words "Have you got so-and-so" have been heard. Everything they see on stage is, to them, simply another type of disco equipment.
Whatever would Mozart think of it?

Trevor

There was a time when I didn't use a laptop, probably about the same time I was wrestling with a massive setup that took 45 minutes and involved two keyboards--dumb. Even then, when I had lyric books on a music stand, had the keyboard set up sideways so the audiences could see my hands playing the keyboard, it didn't make a damned bit of difference. People still came up to you in the middle of a song and began talking to you as if you were a DJ. I'll stick with the laptop until something better comes along, which I don't think will be anytimg soon. I've even had the laptop on a music stand to the side of the keyboard where no one but me could see it, and it still didn't make a damned bit of diffeence. Like my father always said "The average person is well below average, and common sense is very common these days."

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

You have an excellent KB .....practice Playing & Singing with a 'BLINDFOLD ON" his will force you to NOT rely on Lyrics and Looking at the keys when you play as litle as possible making those two things secondary, But it will let you concentrate on reading the audience and entertainig them

Good Luck

Tony.....after 35+ years of performing live I can tell you that electronic music as a whole is beyond the rhelm of the laymans ears & knowledg to a point .....
But the Visual of an audience of a Large LT SCREEN is a major factor in their "YOUR FAKING IT attitude. Lets face it total believability would be PURE ACUSTIC playing eg: Piano, Accordian, Guitar, etc, etc, & vocals......anything else confuses the masses....so to eliminate whatever veiwable gear you can to LESSEN the Audience Doubt factor by a few Percentage points makes for an easier gig all around



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-17-2005).]

Depending on yor agravation tolerance level &
I mean dong this for a living mucho gigs a month year after year....after a while it WILL sink in and get to ya

I love the laptop..it covers everything i need, and easy to access...Soft synth,MP3's, sequences..lyrics..It is hard to beat....the problem as mentioned are the "newsbags"...how be it, I notice it diminishing..

You guys are right, even without the laptop,,we have inquires like"do you have so and so in there".....worse yet , I get it from my band members when someone ask for a tune...they look at me and ask "Do you have Hey Girl in there"...They don't even have a clue how anoying they are...

I can live working with a laptop...it makes everything super easy..and at this point I can ignore the curious.
That being said, I am also considering the Midjay/controller set up...and use the laptop as a back up[packed untill or when I need it]..

The ideal set up for me is my G1000[or a G70], with MP3 capabilities..
I know it's available with the Genesys and PA1x,,,but I need the Roland quality for sounds and sequence playback..

As far as the audiance goes, try to distance yourself from them if at all possiable...like elevate the platform you use or try to fence yourself in, if they can't get to you, they can't bother you...when folks try to come up to me, I put my hand up like STOP and at that signal, they stop and turn away then I simply say that the insurance regs will not permit me to have anyone on stage....that generally works..even though everyone knows that there are no ins. regs here in Mexico....then I have to deal with the Karaoke singers that want to be stars but that is normally after my dinner show....
this is just a thought amigos...it works here...try it.....
Tony Rome

[This message has been edited by Tony Rome (edited 10-17-2005).]

Tony that senario to me would be Musical Suicide in my act.......a Lovey Dovey repoir is a staple in my shows & is CRUCIAL for giving my audiences that "SHMOOZE" factor nite after night ......but if I can lessen the curiosity in some way, if even a little bit it cant hurt and would make my life a bit easier hopefully.

Donny . . . hmmm. Wow! Interesting to hear you finally 'coming around' to my way of thinking on this. Here's what I had replied to you, Uncle Dave, and Gary Diamond, over on this very topic, over TWO years ago:



Donny, it's obvious from what you're saying now, NINE years later, that audience attitudes about the laptop onstage has'n't changed.

In the meantime, I'm having continued gigging success utilizing the MusicPad Pro+ because my audiences rarely (if ever) notice it. If they do, they just accept it like the tilt LCD screen on my Tyros. The MusicPad Pro+ remains the best music investment I've made in years. I've yet to discover if the Tyros2 I recently purchased (still waiting for delivery) can top that.

Scott

Donny...remember, in a gig such as yours, all or most of the people that come are friends and folks that have been to see you many times before....this gives them the sence of familiarity to you hence, they feel that they can come up and join you and kibitz with you while you are working and
while you concentrate on your performance. If you try to lay some ground rules (with that famous SMILE) of yours, I think it would help you very much...my audiance is very different here...some nights we are full with no more seats and other nights I am singing for 2-3 tables.....you gotta do what you gotta do....try it..SMILEY....
Tony Rome

[This message has been edited by Tony Rome (edited 10-17-2005).]

In the old days you could watch the organist use two hands and his feet sitting behind a monster organ. Now they see us sit behind a keyboard that is the same size as the ones they buy the kids at walmart.
They think the keyboard does all the work while we use the one finger chords and sound like an orchestra.
The more we use technology the less respect we get as musicians.
IMHO it's the vocalist and the all around entertainer that sells the act.
In my area the DJ and Karaoke jockey's work more and make far more money than any musician.

What???? Im not coming around, I exploring new means to perform the same results

Another example of what some people call the dumbing down of America. That's a sad situation when someone whose spent lots of years perfecting their art of playing/singing makes less money than a DJ.

Ahhhhhhh whats the use? we're all viewed as glorified DJ's im most peoples eyes anyway....its sad ..but TRUE...
who are we kidding? Living in denial won't help

When I arrived at a wedding gig yesterday forst thing out of the banquet managers mouth was ...."HEY THE DJ's HERE," "I gotta nice table set up for ya in the corner" Argggg!.... scary part he's seen me play affairs for over 10 yrs there...Go Figure?



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-17-2005).]

I just had a situation yesterday...a prospect wanted to know if I would Dj a small wedding for them...because bands take too many breaks...They will spend $500 for the DJ, yet fret about a band or OMB, because we take a break..They want continuous music...This is a contact through my wife....She told them I always play break music while on breaks...

Well, from what I am led to believe is that DJ'S are getting from $800- $1,000 to do a wedding and the bands that still do weddings are only getting $75-$100 per man..
WHY.....karaoke dj's are making $200- $300
per nite letting everyone else do the singing.....and everyone wants to come to
AMERICA...streets of gold.....
Tony Rome

I've seen & also heard from people about musicians talking 20 to 30 min BREAKS!!! Yikes, no wonder clients get angry..

Originally posted by Tony Rome:

{As far as the audiance goes, try to distance yourself from them if at all possiable...}

Except for the hot chicks

Clients will ALWAYS notice when the band takes a break, but never notice how long a playing set might be ...
My nephew recently got married, and admittedly there was a lack of communication between him and the band early on that caused some problems, and he was now kind of 'on edge'. The night of the wedding after a long dance set the band took a break ... they were 20 minutes into it when he said to me "all this band is doing is taking breaks" ... he was kind of surprised when I mentioned that they had played for almost 1 and 1/2 hours straight !!! ...
However, I have seen bands take advantage with long breaks, but then I've seen DJs spin nothing but 'dinner music' the first 2 hours also....

To Tony R: ... like anything else, the $$$ a band gets depends on a lot of factors ... In the greater NYC area top wedding bands (and I'm talking about professional musicians/singers who can and will play ANYTHING you ask for) demand 5 to 8 or 9 THOUSAND a night !!!
t.

Money aside: I suppose the DJ vs working musician career decision has a LOT to do with the area (or part of the Country) you live. In urban areas, where more diverse audience music interests and the arts (in general) flourish most, there are obviously more people and venues featuring LIVE music, which attract people interested in sitting down as an active listener, to enjoy an evening of LIVE music by a musician(s). I realize that as musicians, we all have to do what we need to do to surive (feed our family, and pay rent/house payments & bills), but for those of us who view music making as an artistic outlet must be willing to make some sacrifices. I myself am more willing to use other avenues of employment (teaching, music/computer consulting) than doing the DJ/karaoke entertainment host routine no matter how much it pays. Am I a fool? Perhaps, but I'm sticking to my guns. - Scott

I've done both and I must say I didn't hate being a DJ as much as I thought I would. I was the entertainment, the MC, the host, I ran games. I made sure People had a good time and I walked away with a feeling of satisfaction for a job well done. I got more personal satisfaction from playing live.
Most people don't know how to hire live music, so they end up with a bad experience.
They tend to hire a band someone else has used before except that someone else may be "country" and they are "Rock and Roll"
Today if you want to see the Eagles or Billy Joel Or the symphony or an opera in concert people turn on the 54" TV with the 600 watts surround sound, buy or rent the DVD and watch in the comfort of their own home. You can hear better that live, you have better seats than live, no parking, no scalpers and you have take out or delivery.
The common theme here is things are changing. And to go back to the main topic less and less of our audience considers the one man band live music. Ask any bass player or drummer, or horm player, what they think a live musical performance is.

After years of playing a B-3 with a suitcase Rhodes, accompanied by a drummer, I went "kicking and screaming" into the arranger businss. Last year, I am somewhat ashamed to admit, I got into the DJ business...not me as much as my son.

We bought an old Airstream trailer and used all the old massive Crowns, large cabinets, etc.I had gathering dust.

It was hard for me, because, like some of you, I was constantly irritated by DJ's who would regularly make more money than me..no show..not even much banter.


In our case, we're hired mostly for outdoor car shows, where a massive sound system is needed for annoncements, awarding of prizes, etc.

The second use is as a mobile PA for my large outdoor jobs.. usually 5-6 per year.

We're not really competing against each other, but the set-up paid for itself the first year, and we're now doing open houses at RV dealerships, city sponsored events (St. Patricks day parades, etc.)

It's something my kid and I can do together, and the extra money is GREAT!

I'd never do this instead of playing, but the addition of this service has been rewarding. And, we're not competing with live acts or musicians. I just couldn't do that.


Russ

I concur. THAT'S the primary reason (whenever possible) I think it well worth adding 1 or 2 other pro level instrumental musician(s)/singer(s) on my concert gigs. Not only is onstage musical interaction between band members (from duo to 3 piece) MORE musically rewarding personally, but the audience appreciates the musical chemistry that transpires as well, and reflected by their enthusiam & greater repeat concert bookings for this time of band arrangement. In Europe, for whatever reason, one-man band entertainment appears to more accepted form of social pub entertainment, but in the USA, I believe American's have grown to expect a live band (even if it's just a duo) when they're spending their hard earned dollars to pay for, and go out for an evening of LIVE music entertainment.

- Scott

Lets face it......find your nitche in the music world, look for your piece of the pie and go for it 150% or your done & will have to find another profession.....the music world is Too Splintered with so many avenues, so many different opinions, choices, equipment, radio stations, TV, Dj's, karaoke, computer music, etc etc....you aint gonna change the world as it is now or will be musicaly...But you can do your own thing, and if you do it Very Well you can make a living at it and enjoy it........& if anyone tells ya different tell em to
"Take It On The Hop" If ya know what Im talkin' about

I think that most "Americans" today don't really know what they want however, what is accepted is what is pushed down their throats by promoters and record co. the media and the BIG MONEY...look at the shift in todays musical tastes...what are the people buying and spending that hard earned money on???it's what ever is being pushed at the time with a generous helping of as always,SEX....I'm sorry, 80% of what I've been hearing today as the "New Age Music" is IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, trash...but that is what is selling and that is what the people want to hear, be it from a OMB, DJ,
Karaoke team or a live band....and the DJ's seem to have ahold on the market.....
Tony Rome

[This message has been edited by Tony Rome (edited 10-17-2005).]

Karaoke has ruined the experience of beeing a live musician. Every night I play, and people come up to me ask med if they can sing a tune. If I let them, peopler are happy, they drink more beer, but my employer gets cranky. If I don't let them, people get cranky, don't drink more beer, and employer still gets cranky. 10 years ago, when you played you were the boss, and you controlled the crowds mood. Now it's the other way around.

On saturday I had a woman who came up to me and said "You should let the people sing, if you want to play this place again..." She actually threatened me!

I usually reply telling people that this is my job, and that I don't go around to their jobs wanting to try it out. Like if you are a plumber, I don't ask if I can come to work with you and lay som pipes. But then they say "But the other pianoplayer let us sing... boo hoo hoo".

Any ideas on how to stop this? and regain control?

doc-Z

I set a policy with management that there will be no "sit-ins" at my main place of employment. That's sad, because that prevents my friends from playing, which is always a joy.

The place is a quiet restaurant, and I mostly play "under the radar".

I just tell the "drunks" that we have a "no sit" in policy, and management backs me up.

Russ

And the better AKs become, the more polished they sound, like a finished CD, the more that's the case. That's why whenever there's a piano in the room, even if it's in the back of the room, I'll play a few numbers on it. If it's out of tune, great... so much the better for ragtime. Certainly leaves no doubt to the audience that I'm a musician.

Glenn

Glenn....
Its an everlsting battle of truth, justice and musicianship

I'LL take mine with a cherry and sweet vermouth.....
Tony Rome

My band that I play live with has been told we can't work at some venues unless we play some hiphop numbers. That's pretty ironic seeing as no live musician plays on any hiphop hits which are just looped audio samples. I don't think much of the public is even aware of what live music is nowadays. But note I don't say all because there are some people out there that DO APPRECIATE live music.



[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 10-20-2005).]

The irony of this thread is the OMB players putting down DJs. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...........

You want musical respect? Earn it! Join a band. Stop using ANY auto accompaniment........ Ahhh, but you want to make money, you say?? Well, few of your musical heroes did that (or killed themselves with drugs when they did).

If you are not entertaining a crowd as a OMB, chances are you won't if you were in a band (because the guitarist is probably a great front-man!) and you just stand behind your keyboard. Entertaining a crowd has little to do with how well you play (we ALL know a mediocre musician who packs 'em in every time - how does he do it??)

As an earlier poster said - ask any drummer or bass player what HE (or she!) thinks is the difference between you and a DJ/Karaoke singer. Not much, probably.

The key word here is ENTERTAINING !
It takes a cetain type of individual to be one sucessfully & make a living....its a people business and has to be dealth with accordingly like any other. How you do it in todays world doesnt matter as long as it works, you might not like it, you might want to be a musician purist, or whatver, but the botttom line is Are you working & making a living, supporting your family, doing it part time when you want to do it fulltime, singing also, being the life of your clients party day in & day out, are you lazy and have given up to just play the same low paying boring venues?
Repeat business only comes from a super satisfied customers & diligent work habits on stage & off behind the scenes. I have to thank Dj's, karaoke artists, and sub par OMB, & even full band players.....they create tons of work for me because clients are discusted & dissatified with what they hear sometimes at venues which in turn allows me more opportunity to play for them and satisfy them in multipl ways.
We are in the Entertainment business so go out there and ENTERTAINE, put your heart into it 200% every day & dont be a wall flower

well said DnJ. But still I can't figure out an effective way to make drunken karaoke hungry wannabees stay away from my mic. And the more entertaining I am, the more drunken idiots want to sing...

I miss the good ole days when sitting round the piano singing along to the music was enough for the crowd. Nowadays it doesn't count unless you are in the spotlight.

Doc-Z

Doc...I would assume your problem with drunks corresponds with the type of venues you are working at.....Luckily when I worked Nightclubs, Bars, Restaurants, back in the late 60's,70's....Karaoke wasn't mainstream at all as it is now, leaving people at these venues a mindset that they have full reign over 'sitting in' at anytime with an entertainer....ARGGGGGG!
So called drunken "K" wannabe singer hoolligans stay at the establishment waiting for their turn to sing which fuels the "BEING A HAM" in front of your friends scenario and most of all the bottom line Karaoke makes money for the proprietor , people drink, people sing, people have a ball....but where does that leave you as an entertainer, KB player /singer? It leaves you with your D!@#$%^ in your hand!!!!......sitting there trying to perform, attempting to enjoy your craft & to make people enjoy your music, which under these precarious conditions is difficult & frustrating at best.....& guess what its getting worse
So where do we stand now? You as a musician have the choice to make decisions what you play & WHERE YOU PLAY , which is KEY
I personally have relegated myself to only play venues I like, Im not hard up for work, I have the Goods, Talent, and the know how to pick & choose where & when I perform & anyone can also if you do it right.
So you don’t like drunks, Glorified Singers, etc etc ? Then my friend you have to remove yourself from these kind of venues and Never play them........I stopped playing these kind of gigs almost 20 yrs ago....and vowed to make a successful living as an entertainer/Musician/singer in the private gig sector which includes, Private affairs, Weddings, Anniversaries, Birthdays, Banquets, Dinner Dances, Award Dinners, Reunions, Club events, Active Adult communities, NH's, etc etc .......where 90+% of this Bar orientated "K" riff raff only occurs as a rarity.....
Oh yeah did I mention the money is on average 5-10X better? Don’t sell yourself short, go for what you need to be happy with your music.....its out there ...just go look for it the right way & in the end your 'll be a happy Entertainer for sure

Good Luck



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-21-2005).]