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#117651 - 12/14/06 06:41 AM Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Stephenm52 Offline
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Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 4644
Loc: USA
I recently recorded a number of tunes I play on the PSR3000 to put on a CD to give to family and friends. The CD is made up of mostly latin and big band tunes.

Here's the interesting thing, when I look at the styles I used on the 13 tunes, only 6 were Yammie styles, the other 7 were style conversions from the SD1, G70, PaxPro and Wersi-USA styles. Although I like the 3000 very much I'm finding the so called " in your face styles" just aren't as in your face as I would like them. Generally while playing live I find myself moving toward converted styles from other brands of keyboards vs. the 3000. Anyone else find that happening? Seems I may have a case for another brand and with all the new product releases could be a tough decision.

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#117652 - 12/14/06 07:01 AM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
SemiLiveMusic Offline
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Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 2189
Loc: Louisiana, USA
My only counter to that is that you might find the same situation no matter what keyboard you have. For me to do an album, I had to go through hundreds of styles IN THE GENRE. One brand just does not offer enough styles.

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Bill
SmallGig.com
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#117653 - 12/14/06 07:13 AM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
zuki Offline
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Registered: 09/20/02
Posts: 4216
Loc: Michigan
Have done the same. The only songs I've ever written to CD were done on Yamaha arrangers - and more often with a Roland style - worked out great. Just have to find that style that doesn't need tweaking (at least for me).

zuki
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#117654 - 12/14/06 08:30 AM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Diki Offline
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
It would be interesting to make short MIDI files of the Yamaha style and the converted style to see what, exactly, is making one more 'in your face' than the other.......

If you take a look at each in a good sequencer, and try to look at the maximum velocity and minimum velocity of a track, that should give you an idea about the track's overall dynamics, as well as looking at each drums min/max values to see what it is that makes for the 'live' sound.

Once you figure out where the vibe is coming from, it should not be too hard to go into the Yamaha styles and adjust them to match the 'live' converted styles......

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#117655 - 12/14/06 11:00 AM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
J. Larry Offline
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Registered: 12/14/99
Posts: 521
Loc: University, MS 38677 USA
Doesn't the amount of reverb used and other processing on the parts affect the perception of liveness?

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#117656 - 12/14/06 12:24 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
rikkisbears Offline
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Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 5083
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Stephen,
I noticed a while back that my SD1+ styles for instance, are recorded at a far higher velocity than my older psr styles. Maybe that could give a style more presence on playback??

I quite often use a list edit function in either OMB or EMC ( with the plus package) to check notes velocties etc & do minor editing.

Doing an overall velocity boost by a small percentage, doesn't appear to affect the tracks too greatly.
best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stephenm52:
[B]
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Rikki

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#117657 - 12/14/06 02:20 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Uncle Dave Offline
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Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 11318
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
Wow. In all the discussions here on the zone, I don't ever recall anyone saying that Yamaha styles were "in your face". That's what people always liked about Ketron and Korg. I play the psr3k, and I use it because the styles are dependable and universal. They lack some pizzzazzz, but they work SO well for so many styles of music. I've never had an AMAZING drummer, so I'm right at home.
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#117658 - 12/14/06 04:37 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Eric, B Offline
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Registered: 12/15/99
Posts: 1932
Loc: Ventura, Ca, USA
Actually, since I have the T2 I use less and less external styles, unless they are specifically made for the T2.

When I had the 9000Pro I did the same as you, since the internal styles weren't as good.

Since the T2 it is a different ballgame.
When I use external styles they just don't hold up to the Mega Voices and SA voices.

One of the main things to get a more in your face kinda sound is to turn down ALL the reverb/hall and echo stuff.
It will drown the sound and make it appear to be further away.

If you go to a bar or club, you will notice that the drummer and bass player run their sound completely dry. The guitar player might have a little reverb, but that's it.
Listen to recordings. They are mostly dry.

The first thing I do with the Yammies is to set the global settings to Stage4.
This gives it a nice dry sound with just the right amound of reverb.
The same for the voice.
A lot of OMB singers use waaay to much reverb. It drowns the voice and of course some mistakes..

Again listen to a CD and you'll see.
Increase the volume on the drums and bass and increase the bass level on the drums and you can make any KB sound more live and in you face.
I never had anyone complain that my Yammies didn't have enough kick..

Eric
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#117659 - 12/14/06 07:11 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
travlin'easy Offline
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14442
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
I sincerely believe the reason you like those converted styles so much is that in the process of conversion those styles were tuned to perfection for the 3000. They rarely sound as good on the orriginal keyboard, and some folks have told me the conversions sounded so much better than the orriginal board that they wondered if they were ever the same file.

If you want "In Your Face" styles, it's just a matter of tuning the keyboard, and or the style to sound the way you like it.

Good Luck,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy
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#117660 - 12/14/06 08:08 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Scott Langholff Offline
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Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3106
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Eric, B:


The first thing I do with the Yammies is to set the global settings to Stage4.
This gives it a nice dry sound with just the right amound of reverb.
The same for the voice.


Eric



Hi Eric

I don't have my Tyros 2 set up right now, but I am trying to think where you are refering to any global settings for reverb or level. I don't know if I recall seeing Stage 4 anyplace either.

Where are these global settings and for what parameters? A while back we had a discussion about this wishing that there was someplace where we could do global settings for reverb and part levels etc across the board, if there turns out to be one that will be great news.

Scott

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#117661 - 12/14/06 08:11 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Scott Langholff Offline
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Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3106
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
Hi Eric

Other than that, I agree with you, the onboard Tyros 2 styles are so good that rarely will I use an external style. There's no need to. And when I do use one or test it out, the sound just isn't quite the same.


I will admit though that external styles have greatly improved over the last few years a bunch. I remember going though tons of styles from all over tarnation and once in a while I would find one that was kind of ok.

But now, the converted styles sound incredibly good. Makes me wonder why I sometimes consider getting a Korg or a Roland?

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#117662 - 12/14/06 08:13 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Scott Langholff Offline
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Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3106
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
Another thought. Really we only need a few very good styles. Some have mentioned what they called the easy 8. I would say that really 20 or fewer excellent styles could really handle 99.999% of all the music we'd play in the Western world.

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#117663 - 12/14/06 11:33 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
adimatis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1156
Loc: Oradea, RO
Quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Dave:
Wow. In all the discussions here on the zone, I don't ever recall anyone saying that Yamaha styles were "in your face". That's what people always liked about Ketron and Korg. I play the psr3k, and I use it because the styles are dependable and universal. They lack some pizzzazzz, but they work SO well for so many styles of music. I've never had an AMAZING drummer, so I'm right at home.


i think new roland's styles (e series) are just the middle way, both with usebility and dynamics. you should try them!
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#117664 - 12/14/06 11:49 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
adimatis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1156
Loc: Oradea, RO
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott Langholff:
Another thought. Really we only need a few very good styles. Some have mentioned what they called the easy 8. I would say that really 20 or fewer excellent styles could really handle 99.999% of all the music we'd play in the Western world.



i agree with you. and even more: since the style that are essencial are indeed not many, i think is worthy to put some effort and make/tweak this styles in the very personal way you need them to be. making them would be the best!
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#117665 - 12/15/06 12:07 AM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15826
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by travlin'easy:
I sincerely believe the reason you like those converted styles so much is that in the process of conversion those styles were tuned to perfection for the 3000. They rarely sound as good on the orriginal keyboard, and some folks have told me the conversions sounded so much better than the orriginal board that they wondered if they were ever the same file.

If you want "In Your Face" styles, it's just a matter of tuning the keyboard, and or the style to sound the way you like it.

Good Luck,

Gary




I would prefer NOT to have to tune the keyboard. I want it to sound live when I buy it and not spend hours and days adjusting it.
DonM
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#117666 - 12/15/06 05:42 AM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Stephenm52 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 4644
Loc: USA
From the comments looks like I'm not alone with Semilive and Zuki you both are using styles from other boards on Yamaha arrangers.

Uncle Dave, you're right Yammie styles aren't in your face, but they do work well and are dependable. Not to mention easy OS.

Rikkisbears and Gary I'm with DonM in his comment
Quote:
I would prefer NOT to have to tune the keyboard. I want it to sound live when I buy it and not spend hours and days adjusting it.
DonM


Gary, interesting and a good case to be satisfied with the 3000.
Quote:
I sincerely believe the reason you like those converted styles so much is that in the process of conversion those styles were tuned to perfection for the 3000. They rarely sound as good on the orriginal keyboard, and some folks have told me the conversions sounded so much better than the orriginal board that they wondered if they were ever the same file.


Quote:
By Eric The first thing I do with the Yammies is to set the global settings to Stage4.
This gives it a nice dry sound with just the right amound of reverb.
The same for the voice.
A lot of OMB singers use waaay to much reverb. It drowns the voice and of course some mistakes..

Is there a stage 4 setting on the 3000, I don't have access to my keyboard right now. If so where is that setting?

[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 12-15-2006).]

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#117667 - 12/15/06 11:16 AM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
In the old days of non-velocity switched drum sounds and no extra 'squeaks' and stuff, it didn't matter if a style part was low velocity, high volume or the other way 'round. But now that things have improved, dialing in the EXACT velocity level to make the sound switch at the correct point, and then balancing it's volume is critical.

Unfortunately, the concept of GM/GS has gone the way of the dodo, despite the usefulness of the concept. SA and 'Live!' voices have all sorts of behavior in them that is completely proprietary, so translated styles just don't work well with these kind of voices, and accounts for why so many T2 users prefer the onboard Yamaha styles.... they are the only ones that address this extra layer of 'detail'.

Plus, many of the drum note assignments are now no longer standard..... half open hi-hats, snare drum 'ghost' notes and stick drags, tom-tom flams etc., work differently from one arranger manufacturer to another. I find much of what makes the Rolands so 'live' is the extra snare ghost notes and other subtle drummer performance things that are so difficult to translate between arrangers.

But also a philosophy difference is there, too. I am always looking for styles that concentrate on the rhythm section and don't add a lot of other parts. That's MY job! I just want a rhythm section that responds to how much I want to put on top, rather than one that stays out of the way because the style itself has already overloaded itself... One of my first tests of usefulness of an arranger's styles is to turn off ALL the non-rhythm section parts, and see if the rhythm section BY ITSELF really rises and falls through the variations in a smooth and satisfying manner. If it really needs the other parts to help out, it's no use to me, because I am the one going to play the other parts, not the machine!

I would REALLY like to see someone take a good crack at using the arranger's velocity response features (Rolands, for instance, have a feature where how hard you are playing the Keyboard Parts adds a little extra velocity to each part, so it responds to your playing... I imagine most others can do something similar) in a more dramatic fashion. Anything that makes the rhythm section more responsive to our playing styles, rather than concentrate on whizz-bang extra parts, is in my mind FAR more useful.

Some arrangers can make whole different parts come in and out with velocity, I believe. Now THAT'S fun to play with.....!

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#117668 - 12/15/06 08:29 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Eric, B Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/15/99
Posts: 1932
Loc: Ventura, Ca, USA
Hi Stephen and Scott,

I just got home from a 14 hour job and am pretty tiered.
I will write step by step how to get there in the morning (to Stage4).
Yes, and it should be on the 3000 too.

Eric
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#117669 - 12/16/06 01:29 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Eric, B Offline
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Registered: 12/15/99
Posts: 1932
Loc: Ventura, Ca, USA
OK folks,

here it goes: to set global reverb/hall effect on the T1/T2 and I believe 3000:

Hit the mixing console button to bring up the mixing console page, then right tab over to effects, then hit the F button "type", then hit button 1 or 2 on the bottom of the screen up (in the block area) to go to reverb which is the global setting for styles, song, R1,2,3,left and vocals, then go to the right hand side on the screen to "Type" and scroll down to Stage4!

That's it. Then save to registration memory.
If you want it even more dry use one of the Room types.
Play with it and see what you like.

A few styles are programmed in the type of Hall1 and are somewhat dry to begin with. If you use Stage4 on those styles you will actually add reverb.
Use Room instead.

Next I went to CMP by using the tab button to the right twice and set it to "club"
That adds a nice punch to the global settings and styles.

Of course for each style and song you have to do the same and save it to registration memory.
If you call up a style from the style banks it will default to factory settings.
Except for the global Club setting, all others will default back unless you use registration memory.

I hope this helps

Eric
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#117670 - 12/16/06 04:52 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
I would love to see manufacturers add some kind of global 'offset' to the reverb depth parameter (maybe placed with the overall mastering EQ and compression which doesn't change with registrations/UPGs) to allow you to dial out a bit of overall reverb when you play in very 'bright' rooms, and add in a little for 'dead' ones.

It's easy to make room adjustments with global EQ, but reverb needs can change dramatically from one gig to the next, with no global way of changing it......

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#117671 - 12/16/06 07:55 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Nick G Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1042
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I would love to see manufacturers add some kind of global 'offset' to the reverb depth parameter (maybe placed with the overall mastering EQ and compression which doesn't change with registrations/UPGs) to allow you to dial out a bit of overall reverb when you play in very 'bright' rooms, and add in a little for 'dead' ones.

It's easy to make room adjustments with global EQ, but reverb needs can change dramatically from one gig to the next, with no global way of changing it......


I have played on alot of technics KN boards, yamahas, and this has never been a problem. every style from the factory already has reverb and effects set to each channel in the style. you can easily in the mixer go and turn the knobs up or down...

I guess before you do the gig, set all the styles up first and then way you go. with the Tyros 2, if you hold down 1 button and adjust the data entry wheel, it will globally turn all the knobs on the entire row of that style or midi file...

example: go to "mixing console"
tab over to the "efffect" page. then hold down the "H" button and turn the data entry wheel at the same time and booyaaa, all the knobs for the "reverb" are adjusted simultaneously.

Scott Yee showed that to me...

not sure if it could be done on the PSR3000 or any most other brands?


[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 12-16-2006).]
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#117672 - 12/17/06 02:30 AM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 4888
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Dikki
If I understand correctly you wish to set up separate global reverb programs (Or the facilities to easily adjust it) for different venues, if this is the case then Wersi OAS instruments have this feature, and you can also store your settings for each venue. The same can also be done with the EQ.
Hope this helps

Bill
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#117673 - 12/17/06 01:03 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
NickG..... there isn't enough time to do this for each and every time you change registrations, this is why I'd like to see just an offset. Depending on whether you are in a big bright room or a small dead one, I usually find that the reverb needs to be tweaked quite a bit, although being close to the monitors you may not notice it as much yourself, your audience gets a VERY different sound out in the room.

Abacus.... So you are saying that you only have to store a global reverb setting, and all programs that have ANY reverb in them will refer to this setting without having to re-write ALL your programs.....?

Nice solution, although I'm unsure how it deals with setups that use a Hall setting for one song and a Plate (or whatever) for another. Do they still refer to the Global reverb we just set up?

I still think a global OFFSET parameter tied to the style and keyboard's Reverb Depth parameters would be best, as it would not change the reverb type, only it's depth, on a setup by setup basis. Simple, effective...... Now who'll be the first to implement it....? (probably Domenik!)

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#117674 - 12/17/06 01:59 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 4888
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Diki
If it is just the depth you wish to change, then on the Wersi Main Screen just press the Effects Tab and adjust the depth with the onscreen slider, and when youre happy just touch the Main Tab on the Screen to bring you back.
Whether it changes with the presets etc is entirely up to you, (You just set it up the way you require)
Hope this helps

Bill
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Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#117675 - 12/17/06 02:11 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Nick G Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1042
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
NickG..... there isn't enough time to do this for each and every time you change registrations, this is why I'd like to see just an offset. Depending on whether you are in a big bright room or a small dead one, I usually find that the reverb needs to be tweaked quite a bit, although being close to the monitors you may not notice it as much yourself, your audience gets a VERY different sound out in the room.


u set the global reverbs to your reg banks before you do the gig... im sure before everyone plays for a gig they do this? i sure do... its really no hassal.

I guess in most cases you are usually taking a close guess to what the your reverb should be depending on the sixe of the hall, number of ppl etc. there will probably always be an occasion where your reverb might not be set right. i guess in between breaks u can set it up...
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#117676 - 12/17/06 02:40 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
The T2's effects section is very different from Roland's system, I'm not sure I'm understanding you, NickG. Are you saying each registration in the T2 points to a bank of Reverb presets, that if you edit them, will be still be pointed to the same ones? Or do you edit them, and then tell the registrations to point to the new presets?

As long as you don't have too many different reverb types and presets used by the registrations, this would work well......

abacus..... so there is a reverb overall depth control on the main mixer? But it resets when you change registrations, doesn't it? My G70 has that, but changes as soon as I change UPGs. Can you put a 'lock' onto a mixer parameter?

I guess all I would like to see is a knob in the Global section that just said 'Dryer/Wetter' and it would offset EVERY reverb called up without any further attention. If it involves a whole lot more than that, or forces you to use a Global reverb rather that the tailored. per-registration one you so carefully worked out, it might be more trouble than it's worth, but I'm glad to see that SOME manufacturers try to address this sonic problem.

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#117677 - 12/17/06 02:46 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Nick G Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1042
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
The T2's effects section is very different from Roland's system, I'm not sure I'm understanding you, NickG. Are you saying each registration in the T2 points to a bank of Reverb presets, that if you edit them, will be still be pointed to the same ones? Or do you edit them, and then tell the registrations to point to the new presets?

As long as you don't have too many different reverb types and presets used by the registrations, this would work well......

abacus..... so there is a reverb overall depth control on the main mixer? But it resets when you change registrations, doesn't it? My G70 has that, but changes as soon as I change UPGs. Can you put a 'lock' onto a mixer parameter?

I guess all I would like to see is a knob in the Global section that just said 'Dryer/Wetter' and it would offset EVERY reverb called up without any further attention. If it involves a whole lot more than that, or forces you to use a Global reverb rather that the tailored. per-registration one you so carefully worked out, it might be more trouble than it's worth, but I'm glad to see that SOME manufacturers try to address this sonic problem.


once you edit them, you have to re save the reg bank. all im saying is you can adjsut reverb and other effects globally instead of just a single part. you can do one or the other.

like i said, one turn of the data entry wheel can simultaneously turn all the reverb knobs for the entire style or midi file.

in the yamaha mixer you have 8 channels per page, u can turn all 8 knobs in one hit.
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#117678 - 12/17/06 03:13 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
OK, thanks, I think I get it.

My G70's mixer has an overall reverb depth parameter, too, but it is keyboard parts only. To change the reverb depth on style and SMF parts, that's another page altogether because there is a completely different reverb and effects section for them....

Just wish there was 'One ring to rule them all.....'

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#117679 - 12/17/06 07:22 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
renig Offline
Member

Registered: 02/20/00
Posts: 643
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I guess all I would like to see is a knob in the Global section that just said 'Dryer/Wetter' and it would offset EVERY reverb called up without any further attention.


This may be a bit simplistic, but, being that almost all keyboard amps have a reverb knob on them, would it not be simpler to just go through everything in the keyboard and kill all the various reverbs, then adjust the degree of reverb required or not required by virtue of the master reverb knob on your amp?

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#117680 - 12/17/06 08:30 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Nick G Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1042
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Quote:
Originally posted by renig:
This may be a bit simplistic, but, being that almost all keyboard amps have a reverb knob on them, would it not be simpler to just go through everything in the keyboard and kill all the various reverbs, then adjust the degree of reverb required or not required by virtue of the master reverb knob on your amp?



that makes alot of sense, most of the time when you play live, the keyboard feeds through a mixer that has a reverb slider/knob built in.
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#117681 - 12/18/06 12:15 AM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 4888
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Diki
Whether the various reverb sections changes with each preset is optional. (You just select what you require)
When you have adjusted the reverb from the effects tab, choose Save followed by OK (This will maintain the setting) before returning to the Main Screen,.
As well as Global, the Reverb, Mixer, Chorus etc can be set per voice, (Voice Edit) Main Section, (Manuals, Styles/Sequencer, Drums, Mic/OX7 and Additional such as Harmonizer etc) and Individual Section (Drawbars, Longwave Sounds, Real Drums, Waves/MP3, VST 1,2,3, 4 and audio Input 1 and/or 2)
Hope this helps

Bill
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English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#117682 - 12/18/06 04:41 AM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9159
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
I guess we can score another one for Domenik..The MS has a global Audio effects section..this pertains to the VST instruments.

You can easily go to the effects page and set this globally..

The individual effects remain, only the overall sends are set..globally..
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#117683 - 12/18/06 01:25 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Reverb at the amp? Only if you like the sound of EVERYTHING going through the reverb at the same amount! (Drums in a cavern, anyone?!)

So, while there are a few keyboards with workarounds that usually involve changing the registration's reverb settings to a global one (and changing the sound of the registration in the process if it had a different reverb type to the global one), no-one has a simple, set-and-forget knob that just adjusts wet/dry balance in an offset manner (that is, subtract say 20% of of ALL reverb depths no matter the type or section, on EVERY registration you call up).

Now, does anyone think that this WOULD be a good feature to add to arrangers in general? Maybe if anyone else likes this idea, SOMEONE will probably implement it.....

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#117684 - 12/18/06 02:01 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Nick G Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1042
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Reverb at the amp? Only if you like the sound of EVERYTHING going through the reverb at the same amount! (Drums in a cavern, anyone?!)

So, while there are a few keyboards with workarounds that usually involve changing the registration's reverb settings to a global one (and changing the sound of the registration in the process if it had a different reverb type to the global one), no-one has a simple, set-and-forget knob that just adjusts wet/dry balance in an offset manner (that is, subtract say 20% of of ALL reverb depths no matter the type or section, on EVERY registration you call up).

Now, does anyone think that this WOULD be a good feature to add to arrangers in general? Maybe if anyone else likes this idea, SOMEONE will probably implement it.....


not sure what your on about exactly here, but i assume you want one single knob or slider for GLOBAL reverb. thats GLOBAL as in DRUMS, BASS, Accomp, etc etc. most basic amps have this. i am assuming u want this feature on a keyboard.. as i have explained, Tyros 2 has it...if you dont want to add reverb to drums or other channels u dont have to...
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Roland G70 / Roland BK9 / Yamaha Motif XS6 / Logic Pro X

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#117685 - 12/18/06 02:21 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 4888
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Diki
I am a little confused with your last post, (Drums in a cavern) as I thought what you required was to be able to adjust the Global Settings without altering the preset settings, and which can be done on the Wersi.
Your last post however seemed to indicate that your requirement was to be able to alter the reverb on the sounds and not the styles or drums, (Which can also be done on the Wersi, as the styles, sequencer and sounds can be adjusted independently) for this reason I think we may be talking about different things, so could you elaborate more on your requirements.
Regards

Bill
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English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#117686 - 12/18/06 03:08 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Sorry, Bill..... the 'drums in a cavern' comment was for NickG's idea of putting the entire arranger through a keyboard amp's reverb! Some degree of confusion about what is meant by 'global', I guess.

To try and explain as carefully as I can..... every arranger has at least one, and often two or more different reverb processors aboard. One for the keyboard parts, one for the style or SMF parts, and sometimes one for the Harmonist (the E80 can have as many as six including all the MFX and IFX insert effects units).

To dial back the total amount of reverb on all these different processors is usually a complex and time consuming task, unsuitable to doing quickly on a gig that turns out to be sonically too dull or 'ring-y' for the usual presets. As I said earlier, because of the player's close proximity to his monitor, he may not appreciate this problem, but further out into the room, it gets a lot worse.

What I am hoping that someone can consider is a SINGLE, GLOBAL (in the meaning of 'it applies to ALL reverbs called by by the arranger' in normal operation) parameter that would apply an offset (that means 'no matter WHAT the reverb amount is for every processor, subtract or add the same amount to each'), thus the BALANCE of reverb amount between say a dry-ish drum part and a wetter piano part doesn't change, just the overall amount of reverb as a whole.

'One ring to rule them all' and simplify this task. That's all.

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#117687 - 12/18/06 03:45 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Nick G Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1042
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Ok DIKI i think i now understand exactly what u mean. the only thing is really, when would you need this? most of the time if your perfomance is so great, being slightly off reverb in some areas really wont make a difference. the crowd would never be able to tell the difference.


[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 12-18-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 12-18-2006).]
_________________________
Roland G70 / Roland BK9 / Yamaha Motif XS6 / Logic Pro X

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#117688 - 12/18/06 03:58 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
As I said earlier, because of the player's close proximity to his monitor, he may not appreciate this problem, but further out into the room, it gets a lot worse.....

'no matter WHAT the reverb amount is for every processor, subtract or add the same amount to each'), thus the BALANCE of reverb amount between say a dry-ish drum part and a wetter piano part doesn't change, just the overall amount of reverb as a whole.


Kind of figured that explained it perfectly......

I don't want to set every reverb amount to the SAME amount (never said that, ever!). Just imagine there was 40 reverb amount for the drums and 60 for the piano. I want an offset to change all reverbs by e.g. -10. So now I have 30 on the drums and 50 on the piano. Balance is preserved, only the overall amount of reverb changes.

The simplest place to make this control is the total output control of each reverb processor..... You dial THAT down by 20%, and everything that gets fed to it drops it's reverb amount by 20%, no matter HOW much each one is.

Now just gang ALL of the arranger's different effect section's 'reverb output' controls to one dedicated control, and you have the ability to change total reverb amounts WITHOUT changing the balance between one part an d the next.....

Can't see how I could explain it any better, now Nick. I hope you understand, now.....

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#117689 - 12/18/06 05:25 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Nick G Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1042
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
well if you take notice, I edited my post about 5 seconds after posting it cos I realised that I made a mistake. Go and read it again. then again forget it, this topic now bores me.
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Roland G70 / Roland BK9 / Yamaha Motif XS6 / Logic Pro X

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#117690 - 12/19/06 12:28 AM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 4888
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Dikki
I get you now.
With OAS 7 you can do what you require with the instruments, styles etc, (They all have 2 reverb settings each, thus allowing one to be assigned to presets and the other global) however as far as I am aware the microphone, and any other equipment that is connected has to be adjusted independently. (OAS 7 users will probably be better to answer this as I am still running OAS 6)
Hope this helps

Bill
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English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#117691 - 12/19/06 06:43 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Sorry, Nick, I posted (or started to reply to your post) before your edit. No way I could have known that at the time..... Don't get worked up for nothing.

The thread may bore you, but does the idea seem useful? I'm still waiting to see if I'm the only one that thinks this would be a neat (and fairly easy to implement) idea for some of the more complex arrangers.

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#117692 - 12/19/06 10:44 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Nick G Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1042
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
It will definitely be a good idea, i agree with you. but then again there would be alot more things on top of my list that i prefer an arranger to have at this stage
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Roland G70 / Roland BK9 / Yamaha Motif XS6 / Logic Pro X

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#117693 - 12/20/06 12:43 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
So, wish away (it's that time of year!)......

What are the features that you would most like to see on arrangers (especially ones they don't already have)?

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#117694 - 12/20/06 01:22 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Nick G Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1042
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
2 big things i really wish a Tyros 2 had -

- The arpeggiator that the Synths have.

- assignable sliders

- Full Piano Roll editing in the song/multipad/style sequencers and the ability to plug in a mouse for easy navigation!
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Roland G70 / Roland BK9 / Yamaha Motif XS6 / Logic Pro X

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#117695 - 12/20/06 03:00 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Amen to that arpeggiator.... Why do Motifs and Fantoms get that stuff and we get Bossa Novas?

Some of us still listen to music from THIS century!

I'm also a believer in assignable EVERYTHING... Modern arrangers are entirely software driven, why can't I use the buttons AND sliders to do ANYTHING the arranger can respond to. The G70 has one set of parameters the D-Beam can control, another for the FC-7, another for the footswitch, another for the Assign Switches..... etc., etc.. Why can't ANY control affect ANY destination? The fact that there IS a big list of choices, but each is incomplete just smacks of laziness.

My G70 does have a piano roll display for SMFs and Styles editing, but it's rudimentary at best. OTOH, being used to using Cubase since the Atari days, I'm not sure how useful this would be on such a tiny screen. Bad enough on a 17" computer display...... I still prefer to do all my sequencing on the computer, and just USB the file when it's done. Sure wish Roland would port the style making software to a computer. Imagine how easy it would get to develop styles on a nice big computer....! I'd pay good money for that.

Anyway, nice ideas, but in a hijacked thread. Maybe I'll start one that just asks for everyone's input about what else we would like to see..........

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#117696 - 12/20/06 11:16 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 4888
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Diki
Most of the people that buy arrangers dont use 90% of whats on them, so there is no compelling reason for manufactures to spend money developing extra features. (Open Arrangers probably being the closest you will get)
You can use Cubase on a small screen (Wersi instruments have come as standard with the basic cubase since they were launched in 2000) but as you say the larger the better.
On a separate point I too remember the Atari, and sometimes wish I still had it.
Have a good Christmas

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#117697 - 12/21/06 04:43 AM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
seaside Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 4
Loc: United Kingdom
Don't forget,if you want to keep reverb the same when changig reg.FUNTION-UTILITY-CONF 1 PARAMETER LOCK tick reverb-seaside

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#117698 - 12/21/06 05:08 AM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14442
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Bill hit the nail on the head with his statement that 90 percent of the features on an arranger are never used. In fact, I believe the figure may be somewhat higher, possibly as high as 95 percent.

Much of this is because of the software complexity, plus the lousy user manuals that come with every brand of keyboard. NONE, ABSOLUTELY NONE, of the manuals are well written. Consequently, this has a tendency to frustrate the user to the point where they eventually say "The hell with this--I'll just use it like a piano with a drum machine."

I would venture to say that at least 90 percent of the Tyros and Tyros2 owners in my part of the world didn't know how to set the keyboard's EQs.

95 percent of them have never used the Music Finder Directory, and 99 percent didn't know how to create their own MFD, or modify the existing one.

Less than 1 person in 10 uses their onboard sequencer, and a much smaller percentage has taken the time to explore the keyboard's onboard Sound Creator and Style Creator programs--both of which are outstanding.

The number of folks that failed to load the keyboard's driver file in their PC properly is mind boggling, and some never loaded it at all, thinking the computer would just automatically communicate with their keyboard. It's equally amazing that a significant number of keyboard owners have never taken their owners manual out of the plastic bag it was shipped in, let alone read the introduction or features pages.

The bottom line here is the PSR-3000, Tyros and Tyros2 keyboards have more incredible features than anyone can possibly imagine. Take the time to explore your keyboards and all its amazing possibilities.

Manufacturers really don't need to add more features, and as outlined above, most never get used. But, they could improve some of the existing ones such as the LCD display and LED indicator lamps to make them sunlight viewable. Then, before putting the keyboard on the market, compile a well written manual that is user friendly for the average consumer.

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy
_________________________
PSR-S950, Bose L1 Compact, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

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#117699 - 12/21/06 09:09 AM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Gary..... Thank God manufacturers do not make product for the lowest common denominator! We would still be driving Model T's if you think they should never make anything better than 90% of the users use.....

And, to be honest, I think you are being a bit harsh about the average user's capabilities... I've seen plenty of amateur users able to utilize well some more esoteric functions. If it weren't for the demand for new features (according to your vision, what demand is there if no-one uses any of it?), you'd still be playing a Rhythm Ace....

If COMPLETE mastery of an instrument is necessary before you feel new features are justified, can you (or anyone?) honestly say that you knew EVERY single feature and capability of your previous arranger BEFORE you chose to 'move on up'..... I doubt it. It's the new sounds and new styles that usually make people move, and the new OS features are a bonus. Some use them, some don't, but it still doesn't stop the new arranger from sounding better.....

I agree that manuals could be better, but as in so many computer-based things, third-party books and instructional DVDs are usually better than the manufacturers own literature, but not many want to fork out enough money for those to make it worthwhile for the writer......

If people are happy at the level they are at, kudos to them! If not, it really doesn't take much work to go and learn the features.....

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#117700 - 12/21/06 06:28 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14442
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Diki,

Believe me when I tell you that I'm not being harsh at all. There are loads of great features that are just never used. And, I must admit, after owning the PSR-3000 since it first became available in this area, I still continue to discover things that just are not real obvious in the manual. That's why there is now a tab at the PSR-Tutorial that is titled "Secrets You Won't Find in the Manual."

Additionally, I know lots of pro players, folks that do this for a living every day of the week. Believe me when I tell you the vast majority do not use 20 percent of the keyboard's onboard features. Granted, they are excellent performers, many of which are far better players than I will ever be. But, a significant number of them have never taken the time to explore the possibilities within their keyboards. It's just the way things are.

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy
_________________________
PSR-S950, Bose L1 Compact, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

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#117701 - 12/21/06 10:51 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Spalding1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 236
Loc: birmingham,england
your absolutely right travelineasy. I have just finished a similar discussion on the korg forum. People are spending perhaps up to 80% of the value of their knew purchase on features that they already have and have never used ,styles and sounds they already have and will use very rarely if at all just to acquire " newer or the latest technology" and still not play the instrument any better or understand it any better. Thats why open systems in theory sound interesting to me but thats another discussion.
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dont quit.......period

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#117702 - 12/22/06 11:41 AM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
But all the new features get wrapped up in an arranger that sounds better than the previous one. So even if you don't use your arranger to the fullest, you buy a new one, you STILL sound better! Brilliant....!

As I said, thank God manufacturers don't build arrangers for the way most people use them. Your PSR3000 would never have come out, because, according to you, 90% of the users of the PREVIOUS PSR didn't use the features it had, and so on, ad infinitum. Why should Yamaha provide ANY advanced features that you use, if no-one else does? THAT'S the gist of your argument...? Might as well take the top and bottom 2 or 3 notes off of all pianos, given how seldom they are played!

Pros use the features they need AT THE TIME.... If the EQ isn't necessary to sound good, why learn it (it'll make you sound better, but better than what?)? If it IS necessary, they learn it..... Playing well is, of course, far more important than knowing every single esoteric feature, but trust me, most working pros know enough to make themselves a living. The truth of the matter is (and Fran's debacle on the MS just emphasizes this) having the most expensive arranger on your block doesn't make you a better player, and even knowing it's OS inside and out doesn't help THAT...... You've got to practice, practice, practice!

Most pros probably just learn enough of the OS to suit their professional need, and worry more about the important stuff..... you know - repertoire, playing skills, entertainment skills. Can't find out about any of that in the PSR Manual!

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#117703 - 12/22/06 01:19 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14442
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
I guess from my perspective Diki, the manufacturers have an ongoing pissing contest--just like car manufacturers. Kinda' like mine's bigger and better than yours attitude, therefore, if you don't buy mine you don't have the best.

I guess I'm sort of a nut case when it comes to exploring every aspect of the keyboard. Same holds true with every other piece of equipment I own. If it has something, I want to know what it is, how it works, and what benefits it provides.

However, I agree that playing ability, entertainment capability, lots of other individual characteristics, and your ability to deliver them to your audiences is the most important component of the end product--entertainment. Without it, the best keyboard in the world is worthless.

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy
_________________________
PSR-S950, Bose L1 Compact, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

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#117704 - 12/22/06 01:43 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Totally agree, Gary....

Arranger manufacturers are not necessarily bringing out new models for the owners of the previous model. They know that maybe SOME of them will switch, especially if they put in some new sounds and a practical new feature or two, but primarily they are going after owners of much earlier models that have been waiting to switch, and owners of other manufacturer's models that want something better, newer, etc..

I'm a full-time pro, can afford what I want, pretty much, but even I waited for the G70 to come out before replacing my G1000, and skipped the whole V/VA series. Didn't need what they offered, liked what I had..... But the G70 finally offered what I needed, so I made the change (despite the lack of chord sequencer!).

I don't think I am untypical. FAR more players skip a model or two than HAVE to have the latest model NOW....

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#117705 - 12/22/06 06:06 PM Re: Something interesting Yamaha PSR 3000
Nick G Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1042
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
just curious but what are u a full time pro at Diki?
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Roland G70 / Roland BK9 / Yamaha Motif XS6 / Logic Pro X

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