Often a discussion on this subject migrates towards a existentialist area. I have my reality, you have yours. If they overlap great, but its not necessary.

With growth and size of most anything worldly, comes unintended consequences and sometimes outright corruption.

All the great faiths seem to focus much on helping the poor, the weak, etc. in both spiritual and materialistic ways. There was a great movie back in the 80's called "The Mission" with Jeremy Irons, Robert DeNiro in it that really effected my views on organized religion and faith.

For all the quiet, dignified work that the Catholic Church has done through the years, right now the focus is, rightfully, on the Pedophilia problem. While not a Catholic, common sense tells me they should move faster, not slower to rid their house of that plague. Due process is important, witch hunts do no one any good, but I think there's a perception that the Church engaged in denial for far too long, at a potentially high price.

I understand the Biblical direction to go forward and spread the message, but that's where I find a problem. Raised a Methodist, I was taught that God is always with me. he knows my thoughts, my fears, my joys, etc. I can talk to him/with him anytime of my choosing. Location is not important. However, attending Church allows one to participate and enjoy the rituals of the Methodist faith. As I said before, churches in this area/in this time seem more confrontational. And that's a turn off. How did we get from "God is with you always, just talk to him and listen" to "No! Unless you say this and that, you will never know the glory of the lord!" Those two thoughts don't reconcile well in my mind.

The God I grew up with was inclusive. If a Man lives his life as virtuously as possible he will be welcomed into the kingdom of heaven. JC helps all those weak to be strong. The God I hear far too much about today seems to be the president of a very exclusive club. And the membership fees ain't cheap.

Make no mistake, I have plenty of doubts about this whole affair. I do tend to think that the further we take a person's experience with God away from a highly personal one to more of a group or organizational experience, for me at least, it just doesn't resonate.

Here's a contradiction to that...Having been to a Catholic service a few times and having paid attention to when we replace the Pope, I have to admit that the grandeur and the ritual is alluring. It draws you in because in many ways, I'd like to be part of that. It seems very impressive.

The struggle continues, lol...



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Bill in Dayton

Rory-I agreed with a great deal of the rest of this post, and would like to respond to this remark.I'm fearful that this is more of a political direction and might water down the discussion we're having on Theology.

Do you mind if I create a Political thread and move this there?

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Bill in Dayton

Sure Bill, start a new thread. I'd really like to know some opinions on that. Since Taike mentioned the wealth of the church, I just threw it in here, but feel free to move it.

Chas said:

I guess what I have a problem with is the concept of worship. Even if there were some higher life-form,
why should I bow down and worship it? I can see trying to reach the same intellectual level as this more advanced super-being. But I can't see any motive
for worshiping it other than fear of what it might do to us.....and in fact, isn't that precisely what most Judea-Christian religions tries to instill
in us at a very early age?

OK, try your hardest to reach the same intellectual ability. The moment you figure out how to create one totally new atom, forget a universe, let me know. Yeah, maybe you can rearrange the atoms that are already here and turn them into a car, computer, pencil, but how about just adding one totally new atom, one speck of new energy. Then, once you've done that, try to make one microbe from scratch. One tree, one planet, one galaxy, one universe. Something tells me it's going to be a little while yet before we match God on an intellectual level.

Worship? I'd say so. That's just supreme admiration. You admire your favorite organist. how about if you met someone 10 times smarter than you, with an IQ of maybe 1200. Now how about 12000, 12000000000? I'd say a little worship might not be inappropriate.

And it isn't really about being scared of what might happen if I don't. I mean, I'm scared of what might happen to me if I try to live by eating a vat of lard and nothing else. But it's not fear of what would happen that keeps me from doing that. It just seems like a dumb thing to do. Same with ignoring God. Just doesn't seem to me like it's a good idea. Yeah, I don't really want to experience Hell, whatever that is, but it's not because I live in constant fear of pissing God off that I honor Him.

Rory, in your example, aren't you really saying that "all that we see or seem" comes down to science? Sure, a science far more advanced than what we've been able to master (so far), but still, just science.

Let's face it. You either believe in God or you don't. Since neither point of view can be proven or dis-proven within the scope of our (current) understanding, we can only rely on blind faith that the 'fairy tales' that our parents told us are true, OR, what our senses and intellect are capable of understanding. Religion has a function and a purpose, no doubt about it; but IMO, that function is not to educate or inform, but to substitute fiction for the pursuit of real scientific explanations for the things we are not yet able to understand. If 'all will be made known to us' after we get to heaven, then we'd better arrive in heaven with a much bigger IQ than what we left earth with. I can just picture God trying to explain the physics of time travel or the concept of infinity to my wife. I think you might see some God-size frustration .

Maybe worship is just super admiration, but why then do most of the major religions hint at dire consequences if you don't. In your 'favorite organist' example, what if Joe Blow doesn't really care for Jimmy Smith? Should I insist that he like Jimmy? Should I insist that EVERYBODY like Jimmy? Should I slaughter a few goats in his honor? How about a few million people? Should I tell all the little kids that the only way to Carnegie Hall is through Jimmy Smith (okay, now I'm getting a little silly ).

When we travel as far as we can go, when we reach the edge of the universe, what's on the other side? What is infinity, what is nothingness? I really want to know, not just explained away with gobbledegook. We now know that 'love' between two people has more to do with the science of chemistry than anything else. That's a start. Let's build on that. BTW, I AM starting to get the hang of infinity. A good example would be a debate on the existence of God .

There are so many things in the Bible that are downright amusing. Take the Virgin Birth for instance. Think that story would 'fly' in 2010? First of all, how many married women are virgins? And God, master of the Universe (and beyond, wherever that is) which (according to Stephen Hawking) contains approximately 180 billion galaxies, came down to this speck of dust (planet earth) and zeroed in on a single (married) female to mate with with the express purpose of sacrificing him to the locals so we wouldn't have to pay for our 'sins'. Wow, even Gene Roddenberry couldn't make that one up. Gotta give the church credit though, they're imaginative if nothing else. Is this blasphemy? Well, no, only if you believe. I don't. BUT, I do respect your right to believe whatever you like, as long as you don't insist that I have to do the same.

chas

Hmm, well, I guess if Jimmy Smith was immortal, and if he had built Carnegie hall and made all the decisions for who plays there, then you might indeed have to tell all the little children that in order to get to Carnegie Hall you gotta go through Jimmy Smith.

What's the current estimation now about how much of our brains we actually know what it does or indeed if it is even being used? Seems like we have well over 3 4ths of our brain that is still untapped which might go a long way to understanding some God concepts in time, so there might be hope for your wife yet.

And, it isn't all about science; it's about life. A recent example, which probably won't resonate with Chas specifically, but maybe with someone watching the thread.

I recently lost 2 of my best jobs working as a musician here in Nashville. The 2-time world champ bull rider turned country singer Justin McBride, just dropped his whole band in March and got a different crew. And, the Marty Robins tribute show that would be really good pay for one-offs and not bad steady pay for 3 weeks at a time just did its last show in March too. So just like that, lost 2 of my jobs which ain't easy to come by in Nashville. Well crud, now what? Well, just by pure luck, I'm sure God had absolutely nothing to do with it, (yeah right) I was contacted by 2 people who wanted me to produce records for them. Keep in mind, these are the first records I have produced since moving to Nashville 2 years ago. I used to do some back in SD. Well, suddenly I had a record to do in April, and one to do in May. Oh, and it just so happened that a small inheritance that has been in limbo for the past I don't know how many years, but I wasn't even of age when the guy died, but he was a very good friend of the family and used to make cassette tapes for me of his old record collection. Anyway, I'd totally forgotten I was even in the inheritance, but my parents get a phone call to get my current info because there's a small sum of money due me and my siblings from his very modest estate. Huh. So 2 unexpected records, and an inheritance comes to me right when I needed the cash flow most. Guess it just totally randomly happened to work out that way. I choose not to thik so.

[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 05-22-2010).]

How about, you got the two producing jobs because you're very good at what you do and a lot of people around Nashville know that. And the inheritance? Timing, that's all...plus a little luck. I still believe in luck .

chas

PS: almost forgot. Was God also responsible for you losing the two great jobs in the first place. You can't credit him with all the good stuff and none of the bad. That's not fair .

[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 05-22-2010).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cgiles:
[B]How about, you got the two producing jobs because you're very good at what you do and a lot of people around Nashville know that.

Yup, I'll buy that. But, they might have asked me months ago when I wasn't feeling the crunch, or a year from now. How cool that it just happened to work out at this time when I have no roade work.

And the inheritance? Timing, that's all...plus a little luck. I still believe in luck .

Yup, seems like I got lucky all right.

chas

PS: almost forgot. Was God also responsible for you losing the two great jobs in the first place. You can't credit him with all the good stuff and none of the bad. That's not fair .

In a way, maybe he was. The bull rider gig was not very rewarding, and playing for a largely drunk audience, and often a largely drunk artist, just wasn't exactly my ideal situation. And the tribute sho, it got shut down. there's stuff going on there that I don't know much about and don't care to get into what little I do know. So it wasn't God who really caused me to lose that job, but it probably was him working behind the scenes to start getting my backup plan in place. I have no idea what kinds of spiritual things were going on in the background. How long these people had been thinking of doing records, trying to decide who they wanted to produce for them; and of course God didn't "make them" choose me, but just some little nudges of spiritual influence here and there, just seems to add up.

[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 05-22-2010).]

Rory-

I'm envious of people, who like yourself, seem to have a peaceful comprehension of God and our relationship with him. I will say if I possessed that same level of "faith" I wouldn't be disturbed by it. However, whether its "God's Will" or something more secular in nature, I don't, so I won't pretend I do. That's not to say I don't believe in God, I just have lots of questions. Questions that perhaps, God wants me to have.

I also thought immediately when reading about your new musical work, was God responsible in your losing your other two gigs? Was it all part of the plan? A lot of people I know who are strong in their faith say flat out everything is God's Will. Good stuff and bad stuff. Except when it comes to personal failures. (Yes, we're on a real slippery slope right now.)

Perhaps God wanted you to lose those 2 jobs so you would then take this new one? Great...

What if you fail in some other area? Cheat on your Wife, lie to a friend, whatever. Was that God's will also? Why would God want a husband to cheat on his wife? Happens all the time.

This is just one area where I can't seem to sort it out. Either God is responsible for everything, good and bad OR, we have free will and its on us, both good and bad.

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Bill in Dayton

Re: Creationism comments...

Of course the group of people who prefer the Biblical/Theological explanation of creationism are going to have a profound respect, awe, whatever for whatever force or power made all of this. On the other hand, there are reasonable, intelligent men who believe there is a scientific explanation for all of this. There are also some in the intellectual middle who try and almost seek a compromise.

Regarding what percentage of our brain is actually used, its quite high. Neurologists have mapped out the brain and identified the various functions that different regions control.

What's immeasurable though, is the capacity of the human mind. On that, I've never heard any serious claims of limits, except in the cases of brain disorders, either from congenital issues or injury.

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Bill in Dayton