I DO try to understand. At my age, I have more reason to hope for an afterlife than you do . But I have to listen to what makes sense to me. I think the spiritualism that Bill alluded to, and that appears to reside to some degree in all of us, feeds into this need to believe that there is a force greater than ourselves. In fact, most of us, including me, believes that. I'm just not sure that that 'force' has blue eyes and nordic features and is watching every move that I make. Especially the last part . In any case, you seem to be taking a somewhat 'softer' stance on the absoluteness of your religious beliefs. I'm not saying that there is no God, I'm just saying that I don't BELIEVE that there is one.

Will I ever 'see the light'? No, I won't. I'm an old man with lots of life experiences. It never made sense before and it still doesn't (to me). I grew up in a home where neither parent showed even an inkling of interest in religion (but they did love Basie and Ellington and Billie and Sarah and Ella). As a high school principal in Wash., DC, my mother went to church occasionally but I never saw anything even remotely religious (or even spiritual) about her. My father was pretty much a carbon copy of me (but wittier). If there really is a Heaven, I doubt seriously if either of them made it. Wherever they went, I'll likely be joining them.

To me, choosing religion over logic, reason, scientific evidence, and plain old common sense, is very akin to choosing (as your primary instrument) an arranger over a Steinway grand. You can fake being a good musician or you can BE a good musician. The arranger (God) can do all the work for you, or the Steinway (your brain) can force you to make some decisions for yourself. Each approach is legitimate but one will always work better for some people than others.

BTW, nothing 'pithy' about a dissertation as long as this one .

chas

Why do people pray?

If their wish gets granted it's because God had answered their prayer.

If their wish doesn't get granted it's because God has other plans for them.

If a sick person prays and gets well it's because god has answered his/her prayer.

If an amputee prays he/her prayers are NEVER granted, no matter how good and spiritual person he/she may be.

Why are their so many starving people on earth?

Why do most "Christians" ignore all those starving people?

If earth was created by God, then why do so many Christians do their best to destroy it?

If we're to turn the other cheek, why are we constantly at war?

If we're to turn the other cheek, why is their so much death and revenge in the Bible?

If Adam, Even, Cain and Abel were the first human beings, how did earth get populated?

............................................

I could go on and on... and no one would ever be able to give me a convincing answer.

On one hand we're to take every word literally and on the other hand we have to take it with a grain of salt, albeit only those parts that we can't agree on.

Did Jesus live? If he did, I prefer to think of him as a healer/prophet. He was one of many, in fact. But why did
Josephus Flavius barely mention him in his writings?

Christianity stole/borrowed a lot from other religions: it's pretty well documented.

But what gets me the most is the "hypocracy" of most of its believers.

Look, if I mess up it's because I messed up and the only one to blame is myself. If I gamble and lose all my money it's because I played the devil's game. Yet if I hit the jackpot...well...

Why are christians monogamous if it's perfectly alright to have lots of wives according the Bible. Yet we are supposed to do the "Christian" thing. So doesn't that mean that human laws are above the word of God?

So far I've not had ONE clear and convincing answer, here or anywhere.

Make a book as confusing as possible and it's easy to get every answer right. You answer a question with a quote that, when countered with another quote, gets countered with yet another quote, and so on and on... and the winner will be the one who can counter the most times. It's like being on trial: it's not the law that gets you off but the most convincing lawyer. Truth hardly matters.

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 05-27-2010).]

If your child asks you, "daddy, can I go to my friend's house and play?"
if you say yes, you granted his request.
if you say no, you had other plans for him.
So he should just never ask. Correct? What if you said yes to him yesterday but no tomorrow? Then you're psychopathic and can't give a straight answer.
What if you're teaching him to ride a bike and he falls off and skins his knee? Do you enjoy torturing your child and purposely letting him get hurt?

What if you gave your wife a diamond last year for your anniversary? But this year you just do flowers and a nice dinner? Why do you love her less this year than you did last year?

If you go to visit your friend in the hospital, why don't you visit every patient? Why doo you hate everyone else? Are they less important?

If you were God, what would you do? Make sure nobody does anything stupid, make every day all over the planet a nice spring day? All the birds would sing in harmony, mosquitos wouldn't bite? Is that your idea of what God should be doing, and since he's not doing it, then there is no God? This is just so peculiar to me.

Or if your gripe is with Christianity specifically, then since I'm a Christian, I shouldn't go to work tomorrow, but rather I should be required to sell everything I have and donate it all to the local food bank. And I should walk everywhere I go and eat only carrots. I'm just totally baffled by the reasoning I've been seeing in this thread lately.

If I were God and the creator of life, I'd certainly not let anyone suffer.

If I have to suffer from an incurable disease, or lose my family to a freak accident, murder or whatever, and someone tells me it's God testing me, he/she would be "tested by me.

This is not about being anti-Christian. Rather it's about Christians being against all non-believers. Heck, they even hate each other.

Still, how come there are so many similarities between Christianity and beliefs that were before Jesus? My other questions also remain unanswered. How come that so many prophets were born on 25 December, born of a virgin, performed similar miracles, etc.

How do YOU know it's not all a hoax?



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Bo pen nyang.

You didn't answer any of my questions either. But they weren't so dissimilar from those you were asking about God and Christianity. That's because when I ask them about you it's easy to see how I have skewed logic, but when they're asked about God somehow it seems like a great argument designed to trip people up. You know, if I were able to go through and answer every one of these questions of yours, all except one, then as long as that one remained unanswered you'd still have your case and would be as set in your disgust for Christians as ever. If suddenly there were no more disease, you'd still have it out for Christians because they haven't stopped genocides. If suddenly there were no genocides, you'd still have it against God that there was starving. If there were no starving, you'd still believe the whole thing was a hoax because your town got flooded.
Somehow you want me to be able to take faith out of religion. In other words, explain away every gripe you have with logic and reason, and until that's done, the whole thing is a sham.



[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 05-28-2010).]

I'd call that a fairly moderate, somewhat mainstream view. That feels about right with me. On the other hand, people who are of a stronger faith than I would say its too weak of a stance.

I think Rory's kind of hit on one of the things I'm uncomfortable about Faith/Religion. The hardline stance just doesn't jive well with so many people. According to some Churches in my area of Ohio, it seems like the hundreds of people I worshiped with in my Church back in Penn Hills, PA during the 70's aren't quite "Christian enough." And therefore may be on the outside looking in when the time comes. Which I think is crap. I don't buy that all the people in THIS Church are right, but the ones in THAT Church are wrong. It just doesn't add up.

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Bill in Dayton

These questions make no sense to me (in this thread). Sorry! You can't read my mind so you don't know what I'm thinking. And what's so wrong about talking about genocide?


Please don't tell me that I have something against Christians for I don't. But quite a few sure have something against me for NOT following their faith. All too often have I heard that they feel sorry for me, that hell's awaiting for me if I don't repent. Repent? Because I am not a believer? No, I don't hate Christians. I just dislike people like that acting like they have all the answers and tell me what to do with my life, how it may affect my family, what will happen in my afterlife (if there's any). Hey, I talk to missionaries that approach me. And whenever I tell them that I am not a believer I get to hear the fire and brimstone crap. And I shouldn't even mention another church for those have it all wrong. If they claim that the bible has all the answers then I am entitled to ask my questions and be given a genuine answer, something that makes sense. I don't believe in blind faith although that's what they expect me to do.

I do think, that if someone believes in the Creation of the universe and life, and knows that it is true, answering some basic questions should be a simple matter.

Moderate or hardliner... if you believe, shouldn't you believe all the way. Or is it a matter of convenience? After all, you're all reading from the same book. Those that think they're the real deal are merely acting against their own belief and too blind to notice it.

To each his/her own belief. Just don't assume that one has all the answers and woe those that don't believe. But those that don't believe aren't necessarily against those that do. We're not all like G.W.Bush.

In closing, I am not a good person. I mean, I do plenty of bad stuff. Yet, I do good deeds as well. At least, I believe I do. Well, it's not really that much and certainly not something to write home about (If I did they'd send the guys in white jackets after me). I pay for the education of a couple of young men, give to the needy and those that need a hand. In fact, several times I've given all I had so that others may have a better life. It's made my life harder and I've been called a "total nut" more than once. Yet, at least I try to do my part instead of just talking religion. I just wish that there was more genuine compassion, that people would really care instead of merely feeling sorry or blaming the misfortune of others as self-inflicted. See, what's important to me are deeds, not words. Give a helping hand, make people count, give a beggar the same respect as you would a doctor or teacher. One doesn't need religion for that.

Anyway, let's not argue. My apologies if I came over like that.

Peace!

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 05-28-2010).]

Three very close friends are the main participants here. They are expressing vastly different points of view. All three have eloquently stated their opinions. I would not expect any one of them to change their attitudes or beliefs.

Everything has been said. Maybe it's time to respect the other right to their opinion, appreciate the articulate manner in which opinions were detailed; then move on.

My personal thanks To Taike, Chas and Rory for being courteous and not taking the "short cuts" that these ultra sensitive discussions sometimes generate, while still holding firm on your positions.

With respect,


Russ

Does kinda' make you wonder what 'God' was thinking, here.
http://www.detnews.com/article/20100615/...io-Jesus-statue

chas (afraid to put a 'smiley' here)

R