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#508257 - 05/11/23 10:37 AM Re-learning old equipment
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
One result of 'old age' (at least for me) is how quickly we forget how to do things that we did routinely just a short time ago. This is especially true if you never learned it well in the first place smile smile. That's the case with a stand-alone recorder (Tascam DP32SD) I bought on a whim a couple of years ago. After messing with it for a couple of days, I quickly decided that recording on the PC with REAPER + audio interface was ten times easier and faster with even better sound quality. I packed it up, put it in my storage room and it's been there every since until I decided I might want to record something on my new FP-e50 which is located in my office, not my studio.

Pulled it out, unpacked it, and (operationally) drew a complete blank. Back to the manuals, YT tutorials, and occasional flashes of memory. In the process of learning it the first time, I recorded this tune, MY FUNNY VALENTINE (for those that might not recognize it smile ), and left it on the machine. I don't remember much but I'm sure that's the SAX from my old (retired) PA1x-Pro. The sound is pretty lousy 'cause it's 16-bit, un-mixed, and un-mastered. I don't know why I decided to mix two lead instruments at the same time (probably just experimenting) but I thought it was kind of interesting so I decided to post it anyway.

https://app.box.com/s/vdfzztenspwc641pjbrvix63pak1gqrl

chas
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#508258 - 05/11/23 11:21 AM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: cgiles]
Bernie9 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5515
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
Hey Chas,
I love it and the ending with the organ was very tasty. Listening to it took me back to yesteryear in a smoky after hours joint.

Thanks for sharing
Bernie
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pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact

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#508259 - 05/11/23 01:10 PM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: cgiles]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15566
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Damned, that sounds fantastic to me, Chas. I really enjoyed it, a lot of creativity went into it, and the final product really came out incredible. I can sing, but how I wish I had your playing skills.

All the best,

Gary cool
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#508260 - 05/11/23 02:46 PM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: cgiles]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Thanks Gary and Bernie, but I think you ol' fogeys just like those old tunes (like I do) no matter who's playing them smile.

chas

PS: I don't think I know anything past 1940 smile.
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#508263 - 05/12/23 10:48 AM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: cgiles]
captain Russ Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7293
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
One of my all-time favorite tunes played by my all-time synthzone player.

You KILLED it, dude.

I know what you mean talking about old equipment. For years I played a pair of MS 60 Soltons. Then, I tried to program pre-sets on an SD-5, which is very similar.

Drew a complete blank, and am still using a 1994 Solton MS-60 for speck scores.

Be well, bud.

Russ

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#508265 - 05/12/23 04:43 PM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: cgiles]
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
That was beautiful Chas. Glad you found it.

The older we get, we definitely do forget how to do things.😔

Bought Sample Robot software the other day so that I could sample some drums from my sx900 for my Korg.

Couldn’t get it to play the notes on my sx900 that it needed to record the samples. Wasted 2 days.
Reread the manual on my external soundcard, thought it might be the culprit , haven’t used it for 3 to 4 years.
Then realised I’d left my daw running in the background. My usb interface only allows for one program running at one time.
Normally would have been the first thing I would have checked if something wasn’t working.

Getting old, ain’t fun😫 haha😀
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Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
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#508267 - 05/12/23 06:47 PM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: rikkisbears]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By rikkisbears

Getting old, ain’t fun😫 haha😀


Yeah, but thank goodness we can still be immature smile (MEN excel at it smile ). The important thing is that we stay interested and involved. Sure, there's joy in discovery but re-discovery ain't bad either. It proves we can still have a synapse (takes at least TWO brain cells smile ). I feel certain that MUSIC makes us better human beings. I feel a little sad for people that don't have it in their lives. BTW, I (we) love your 'always cheerful' outlook on things.

chas
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#508271 - 05/13/23 07:03 PM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: cgiles]
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Originally Posted By cgiles


The important thing is that we stay interested and involved. Sure, there's joy in discovery but re-discovery ain't bad either. It proves we can still have a synapse (takes at least TWO brain cells smile ). I feel certain that MUSIC makes us better human beings. I feel a little sad for people that don't have it in their lives. BTW, I (we) love your 'always cheerful' outlook on things.

chas


Hi Chas, so true about staying involved. Hubby has his online video games, communicates with friends from all over the world ,
me, I’ve got my keyboards, might not be much of a musician, but I enjoy it anyway.
Definitely agree that music makes us better human beings.

Oh thank you, I do my best to try and stay cheerful, who wants to listen to a grouch . Haha.😀
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#508272 - 05/13/23 07:33 PM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: rikkisbears]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By rikkisbears
who wants to listen to a grouch . Haha.😀


smile smile Yeah, I need to remember that smile.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#508274 - 05/13/23 07:46 PM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: cgiles]
zuki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/20/02
Posts: 4720
Chas. Really liked it. The sax was fine, as the digital piano. The slap bass was the coolest of the bunch. I liked how the sax 'talked' back. The southern gospel ending was fun. Nicely done smile


Edited by zuki (05/13/23 07:47 PM)
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#508321 - 05/24/23 01:52 PM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: cgiles]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14208
Loc: NW Florida
I really think you ought to give SWAM a try, Chas… your note selection is very tasty, but the saxophone sound is letting you down over legato phrases and fingering.

I was amazed at how much going to a modeled sax improves the realism. And SWAM can run on an iPad or iPhone very affordably if you want portability or don’t have a Mac. Very easy to set up (it has auto-map for controllers) and very simple to use. It even sticks to each horn’s natural range, so you can’t play outside and ruin the illusion!

Treat yourself to the best $40 you ever spent! 🎹♥️
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#508325 - 05/24/23 02:45 PM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: cgiles]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
I'm sure you're right Diki, about the SOUND superiority of VST's like SWAM and many others. However, I think personal taste, playability, and how well it 'fits' with the other instruments on the tune, is equally or possibly even more important. I always liked that slightly tweaked (by me) 'breathy' sax on my ancient PA1x-Pro and that's why it's usually my 'go to' Sax, especially on ballads. I'm sure I'd like SWAM (maybe even better) if I were dissatisfied enough with my current choice to try it. Call it 'lazy', but I'm just not the type to go to a lot of trouble to achieve what MAY be a slight improvement in the sound of ONE instrument. I guess I'm more into WHAT is played rather than WHAT it's played on. I really like a lyrical approach to improvisation, especially on pretty, beautifully structured 'standards', and I tend to play it like I would sing it IF i COULD SING smile smile. I guess it comes down to whether YOU, the performer, is satisfied with a particular sound. I'm sure there is a 'better' substitute for practically everything in life but again, sometimes it's just a matter of personal taste, and we all know how subjective THAT is smile.

On another note, so sorry to hear that you're going through such a scary medical situation but happy that you seem to be handling it so well (mentally, physically, and medically). Can't offer you any prayers (you know ME smile ), but I will certainly send lots of good thoughts your way. My own health seems to be on a downward spiral (you name it, I've got it), mostly things related to old age, the one thing we dread (until we consider the alternative smile ).

Get well soon, I miss our loving discussions smile smile smile. Do you know how hard it is pick a fight with Rikki, Bernie, or Paul smile smile smile.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#508326 - 05/24/23 03:13 PM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: cgiles]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14208
Loc: NW Florida
Thanks Chas. I’ve missed our sparring too!

The thing about SWAM is, there’s a reason you like what you have. You bought it! It was better than what you had before, so you got to using it. All I’m saying is, if you have a device SWAM runs on, buy it, it’s pocket change. And it may easily make you think of your current favorite the way you think of the sound that that replaced!

You want sexy breathy sax, it does that. Same one also does loud growly sax. And everything in between, all by simply how you play. Believe me, I’ve got my goto sax sounds I’ve used for decades. Breathy Alto. Been in Roland’s my last three arrangers. Never thought I would need better. Then I played SWAM. Game over!

In truth, it’s not the sound. It how it handles legato, something sampled saxes fail at spectacularly. They are amazing one note at a time, but fail horribly trying to join a phrase together. Enter SWAM. It can ONLY play one note ar a time, like a real sax. You might (you did!) accidentally overlap a couple of notes, and you got two notes, not one. You might also join up two notes for a legato, but the sample was tongued for both. Sax players only tongue the start of phrases.

I think the best way to explain it to an organ player is, you know the difference between how a proper B3 percussion tab works compared to a sampled percussion organ patch? Night and day. Phrasing is so much easier when the start of phrases is where you hear the percussion. Even Hammond temporarily lost their way making later models than the B3 have multiple trigger percussion (triggers on every note), and it why the B3 is still King, and the most emulated organ out there (not a lot of L100 models, are there?!).

If you’ve got a device it will run on, give SWAM a whirl. At worst, you’re only out $40. At best, you’ve found your new favorite sax! I think maybe I need to run up a couple of demos doing stuff I know you’d like… 🎹♥️
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#508328 - 05/24/23 04:02 PM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: Diki]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By Diki
if you have a device SWAM runs on, buy it, it’s pocket change.

...and therein lies the rub. I don't (and probably will never) own anything 'APPLE'. Nothing against it, just never used it, or any Apple products. My Smartwatch and phone(s) are both Samsung and none of my 4 or 5 tablets are Apple. Not even my earbuds. I guess I don't like their sketchy compatibility with the non-Apple world. I can't justify buying even a used/reconditioned/prior generation one just to (subjectively) improve ONE sound, especially since it's not my primary sound. Instead, I'd spend that money on a Legend 273 Soul (organ). I still love my Duo Mk111 but am concerned about getting it repaired if something should happen to it (not currently supported). Still, I'd like to hear your SWAM sax demo, so post it when you get the time.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#508332 - 05/25/23 02:54 AM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: cgiles]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5354
Loc: English Riviera, UK
You could always buy a keyboard where you can load VSTs (Instruments & Effects) and integrate them so that they become as one with the instrument, and have Midi features so that external modules can also become as one with the instrument, with the added advantage of getting new features and sounds for free via updates for years on end.

Example

While Apple is good it is still more limited than Windows, particularly as a lot of programs (VSTs are just programs) are still not compatible with the latest Arm versions from Apple. (When it comes to Tablets though the only option is the iPad if you want to use it for music)

Bill
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English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#508335 - 05/25/23 08:28 AM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: cgiles]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14208
Loc: NW Florida
SWAM can run on Windows… https://kb.audiomodeling.com/en/c/compat...wam-instruments

Whether this equates to tablets I don’t know, but it should be fine on a Windows laptop…

I gig, so the idea that it runs on an iPad or iPhone is very appealing, but for the home player, or recordists who uses a DAW on a laptop or computer, it’s a damn sight cheaper than buying a Wersi!

Unfortunately, the computer version of SWAM is quite a bit more expensive than the iPad/iPhone version, but it does add quite a bit of extra capability, particularly in the area of pitch fluctuation (random or programmed imperfections of pitch, like a real horn player gets).

But personally, I think the idea that you got to buy a MASSIVELY expensive keyboard to run a $40 app in hardware is laughable, abacus.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#508337 - 05/25/23 10:47 AM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: Diki]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5354
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By Diki
SWAM can run on Windows… https://kb.audiomodeling.com/en/c/compat...wam-instruments

Whether this equates to tablets I don’t know, but it should be fine on a Windows laptop…

I gig, so the idea that it runs on an iPad or iPhone is very appealing, but for the home player, or recordists who uses a DAW on a laptop or computer, it’s a damn sight cheaper than buying a Wersi!

Unfortunately, the computer version of SWAM is quite a bit more expensive than the iPad/iPhone version, but it does add quite a bit of extra capability, particularly in the area of pitch fluctuation (random or programmed imperfections of pitch, like a real horn player gets).

But personally, I think the idea that you got to buy a MASSIVELY expensive keyboard to run a $40 app in hardware is laughable, abacus.


Wersi is a low volume organ manufacture (The OAX 1 is just a single manual organ with arranger facilities like the previous generation Abacus) so will always be high priced. (They just sell a few thousand a year)
If there was enough demand then all the remining big boys could make a dedicated arranger with onboard VST facilities way cheaper.
BTW; A genos costs £4100, a Korg PAx5 £3800 and a Ketron Event £4400 with a current typical life expectancy of 5-6yrs before you loose a lot of money on them when you trade in for the latest model, whereas with a software based model would last way longer, (The previous Wersi OAS lasted for about 15yrs before being replaced with OAX, which is the equivalent of buying 3 keyboards from the big boys) and thus long term work out cheaper.
As I said my post was just an example, its up to arranger players to put pressure on the big boys to make them make something similar.

Bill
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English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#508338 - 05/25/23 11:14 AM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: cgiles]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Muhammad Ali said it best...'DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS'.

I also agree with our fellow forumite Sokratis 1974 when he says "I respect your opinion" (and IMPLIED)...SO PLEASE RESPECT MINE.
We HAVE to accept the fact that music (and practically every other art form) is highly subjective and that YOUR TRUTH IS ONLY YOUR TRUTH. People think I love the organ; I DON'T!!! I love the HAMMOND organ. In fact, I only like even the Hammond in certain formats ie. Jazz or Gospel. I can barely tolerate the organ in any other format, even classical, and particularly Theatre Organ. That's why, if marooned on an island, I'd rather have a $300.00 Casio than a three manual Wersi (assuming the island had electricity smile smile ).

There is no accounting for taste. Between tradition, environment, and numerous cultural filters, it's unlikely there will ever be a 'standard' in the world of music and art. And to that I say, Amen.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#508340 - 05/25/23 12:48 PM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: cgiles]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14208
Loc: NW Florida
In defense of Wersi, it’s only that that ‘sound’ is rather expected if Wersi players that you hear it a lot. You can run a TOTL B3 VSTi in OAX and you’d be back in Hammond heaven..!

The organ scene in Europe (I was around it in the 70’s) is something that never made it big in the States, and that sound is part of it. But the organ itself is a blank slate you can flesh out with anything you like. Sadly, a five figure blank slate! And a back breaking weight thrown in for free!

But I never blame the tool. Only the craftsman… 🎹😂

As a horn player, perhaps my benchmark for where realism starts is different to many. But it’s rare to hear a sampled sax that I can’t tell in four notes it is a keyboard sound. Just as a B3 player can sniff out a sampled Hammond by the second or third note…

The thing about modeling is, you don’t really have to change how you play, or what you play (thank God! We’re all getting too old for that!), but the sound figures out the articulation you intended, and magically turns something that wouldn’t fool anyone using a sampled sound into something that even horn players have a hard time spotting as a keyboard sound. THAT’S my idea of great technology… don’t make me have to change how I play, just figure out what I MEANT to play and give me that! 🎹♥️
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#508344 - 05/25/23 03:04 PM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: Diki]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By Diki
THAT’S my idea of great technology… don’t make me have to change how I play, just figure out what I MEANT to play and give me that! 🎹♥️


Wow Diki, do you really mean that? First of all, I prize great MUSIC over great technology. Secondly, I want an instrument to accurately play what I played, not a technology-derived version of what it THINKS I meant to play. Unless it can read minds, how the heck does it know what I MEANT to play? Unless I've had to much to drink, I PLAY what I meant to play. Wow, how soon we forget how to read, write, or incorporate the word OPINION in our posts. Here is my OPINION about the quality of our musical performances. The biggest problem I see with most of the ARRANGER performances is TASTE!!! Say it with me, T-A-S-T-E, TASTE. By that I mean, song selection, instrument selection, selected arrangement (style), and most of all, poor playing skills. When Mario Parisi (sp) demo's a keyboard, I've rarely heard anyone (even you, Diki) dwell on or even mention, any deficiencies in the keyboard; they're too busy being mesmerized by a great performance by a great player. "Uh, the Sax sound was a little off" is a phrase you'll probably NEVER hear at that demo smile smile.

Soooo, save your money and stop worrying about that 'perfect' Sax sound until after you get the rest of the tune to a listenable state. Just my .03 cents (adjusted for inflation) worth.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#508346 - 05/26/23 02:51 AM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: cgiles]
MusicalMemories Online   content
Member

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 632
Loc: Arbroath,Angus,Scotland
Thinking about as you move from arranger to arranger through time, but you may also also learn new skills in areas such as sound design, and more in depth editing skills..

Whilst you may have more features / sounds In your newer arrangers, if you knew what you know now would it have made the Arrangers you had previously because you have gained a more in depth knowledge.
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Gem Wk4, Solton Ms60, Technics Kn5000, Korg Pa50sd, Yamaha Psr k1, Tyros 4, Korg Pa700

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#508356 - 05/29/23 01:06 PM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: cgiles]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14208
Loc: NW Florida
No matter how hard we try, Chas, there are times when our fingers let us down. A sampled sax, for instance, can play two notes at a time, and unfortunately, putting it into monophonic mode isn’t really very close to how an actual reed or brass instrument works. So, even if just a fraction overlapped, there’s a sax playing two notes! Then, like a B3, there’s the issue of where does the tongued note go into the un-tongued notes? As if you have a choice! Just like sampled B3’s, either the sample has the percussion at the start, or it doesn’t, it has the tongued note at the start, or it doesn’t…

You like to put technology down chas, but you completely ignore the technology you already have working at your fingertips making what you play more musical…

I can only imagine a post of yours on a Hammond forum in the 50’s, where you dismiss the differences between multiple trigger percussion and single trigger percussion..! But you know the difference, and use it in your playing, every day. Single trigger percussion allows you to phrase the line, to emphasize the starts of phrases, to articulate what you feel in your heart.

The truth is, just like a sampled sax sound, you ARE making mistakes with your fingering on the organ. But make that break in the line, and the percussion will sound every time. And it’s not your search for fingering perfection that got it. It’s technology (the horror!)…

It’s just old technology. Technology you are so used to, you don’t think it’s there, or don’t consider how important it is until it isn’t. Well, Chas, modeling saxes are the exact same thing. Technology, for sure. But technology you don’t really have to know about, that you don’t have to understand at all. It just makes what you play more musical. You get used to how it helps you phrase well, and then you just forget about the nuts and bolts of it and get back to making MUSIC without a care in the world of how it works!

So, think about your B3 for a moment. In a real one, that’s some amazing electromechanical engineering. In a clone there’s some extremely sophisticated modeling going on just to let you sit down and play it, and it sound and respond JUST like a real one. Would you have not bought your Hammond clone if anyone like me had explained how the magic happened? Would you have got your hackles up and started muttering about not wanting to deal with sophisticated technology?

Damn good job you didn’t!

We ALL benefit from how technology helps us to achieve our musical goals. All SWAM is is one more example.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#508359 - 05/29/23 04:13 PM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: cgiles]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Diki, my gripe is not with technology. It's with your insistence that I (everyone) use an object or procedure of YOUR choice rather than one of THEIR choice. Who's to say that one SUBJECTIVE thing is better than another? You have your preferences and I have mine. Is it any wonder than one might feel resentful and annoyed when they feel bullied and coerced into accepting someone else's choice over their own? Why not just make suggestions, that a person can try or not try, and let it go at that.

I'm not anti-technology. My whole career has been technology-related. Noooo, what I am is anti-authoritarianism, which is one of the reasons I've been an atheist since the first time I could say "mama".

BTW, that FP-E50 is working out well. I've been playing it on cheap 5" studio monitors and didn't realize how GOOD that Supernatural piano was until last week when I listened to it through some $270.00 headphones. Wowwww! I'm getting used to the sub-par keybed (it's stiffer than my Yamaha acoustic piano) but still wish it were the keybed that's on the FP-90(x) which is an upscale version of the same keybed. Oh well, it was obviously a 'keep it cheap' decision by Roland. Still a great bang for the buck.

Glad your healing process is going well. Don't overdo it. Me, I get 6 hrs of sleep every night. The other 18 hrs is spent napping on the couch (short breaks to check Synthzone and hit the John smile ).

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#508361 - 05/30/23 02:13 AM Re: Re-learning old equipment [Re: cgiles]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5354
Loc: English Riviera, UK
The problem with technology (In musical equipment) is that people let it become the master rather than it being the slave, which is the reason why once you have heard one arranger player you have heard most of the others.
In the old days you had to work at it to get the sound you wanted (Which was different to everybody else) and so it was great going round and listening to different performers, now what's the point as everybody sounds the same. (Yes there are some great performers out there that make the sound there own, but there seriously low in numbers to what there used to be)

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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