SYNTH ZONE
Visit The Bar For Casual Discussion
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#507841 - 03/06/23 10:48 PM KETRON EVENT - Your questions and doubts answered.
Ketron_AJ Offline
Moderator

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3547
Loc: Middletown, DE
For clarification purposes, this is going to be a long video that answers a lot of questions and doubts that have been raised about the KETRON EVENT lately, so grab some pop corn, sit back, and enjy.


Questions and doubts cleared about the new KETRON EVENT:- https://youtu.be/dULXT00bnJM
_________________________
[KETRON - USA]
Design Engineer & Product Specialist.
www.KetronAmerica.com

Top
#507854 - 03/07/23 08:36 PM Re: KETRON EVENT - Your questions and doubts answered. [Re: Ketron_AJ]
Nick G Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1093
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
I just finished watching this video from start to finish. thanks for posting this!

I also watched the video of that guy from Dynamix giving his feedback and comparison to the Medeli, its all very interesting.

I think one thing we can all agree on is - Social media is everything these days - his video just like your tutorial videos are all "Social media"... you make claims and observations, and so does everyone else over social media platforms.

I want to give my feedback here as food for thought...

I understand alot of vendors (and not just Keyboard / synth companies) are always trying to "simplify" things by reducing buttons on devices. Because in some cases - alot of buttons comes across to some people as daunting or "complex"... But in all essence, there is a lot of basic staple arranger functionality that needs a dedicated physical button, it just cant be replaced by a menu configuration or a "soft button"...

I think about arranger keyboards and other technology like this: how much can you achieve before needing to read the manual or watch hours of tutorial videos? sure you need a manual to go beyond the surface and deep dive to get into the nuts and bolts, but for an arranger keyboard with a large colour touch screen it shouldn't really be necessary.

Here are some examples:

The method you showed of switching from Arranger mode to solo voice (full keyboard) mode is absolutely ridiculous. Can you imagine trying to do all that on the fly while performing?

Sometimes while the arranger is playing I like to press 1 button (accomp) which immediately turns off tracks 3-8 for the base and accomp so all you hear are the 2 drum tracks that keep looping. then press the button again to bring them all back in. From what I can see - the most efficient way (on the fly) this can be achieved with the EVENT is to use the sliders to mute the 6 channels?... perhaps you have a way of programming this in the menu, but again what's wrong with having a dedicated button for such a staple feature? other brands have these buttons for a reason...

Another thing - you showed that you can have a row of soft buttons on the bottom of the screen for basic arranger functions like variations, fills, intros end endings - when you are playing live and you are trying to hit fills or switch functions in time, the touch screen doesn't always read your input unless you press it perfectly... And then if its a miss - you have missed a fill-in or a que for the next variation screwing up your performance. this happens to me on some korg keyboards where you need to press the track on the touch screen that you want to mute, and unmute etc...

I must say this keyboard is one of the most menu driven systems I have ever seen on any keyboard, probably even more than on my BK9 - which is a nightmare (death by scroll wheel!!)

You address the page up page down issue by saying you can assign 2 of the 7 assignable function (soft) buttons to these features... Now I am sure than any person that buys this keyboard will immediately want to set that up before anything else... so really you need to sacrifice 2 of the assignable soft buttons straight away for a basic function that simply should be there in the OS... hopefully something that can easily be addressed with an OS update??

Audio latency. you addressed this by saying that audio requires processing power / memory etc... so why not give the machine the right power it needs then?

Yamaha dabbled with audio styles for a little while (fair enough it wasn't as deep as Ketron) but still - no issues there with latency whatsoever.

You then mentioned that you can essentially go levels below to be on par with other arranger keyboards by using Midi styles to remove latency (as opposed to the real and live styles)... Lets be honest - the main hook to these Ketron boards is the Sound quality which comes from your AUDIO styles! To have latency on your flagship audio styles and use the fallback of "we are comparing to midi" doesn't sit well... it needs to be done right!

You made a lot of claims about how Ketron is next next level above the competition etc - but really in terms of the usability / interface it is not really ahead by any means. It pains me even thinking about trying to use that machine in a live situation.
_________________________
Yamaha PSR SX900 / Roland G70 / Roland BK9 / Korg PA700 / Roland GW-8L

Top
#507856 - 03/07/23 10:37 PM Re: KETRON EVENT - Your questions and doubts answered. [Re: Nick G]
Ketron_AJ Offline
Moderator

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3547
Loc: Middletown, DE
Originally Posted By Nick G
I just finished watching this video from start to finish. thanks for posting this!

I also watched the video of that guy from Dynamix giving his feedback and comparison to the Medeli, its all very interesting.

I think one thing we can all agree on is - Social media is everything these days - his video just like your tutorial videos are all "Social media"... you make claims and observations, and so does everyone else over social media platforms.

I want to give my feedback here as food for thought...

I understand alot of vendors (and not just Keyboard / synth companies) are always trying to "simplify" things by reducing buttons on devices. Because in some cases - alot of buttons comes across to some people as daunting or "complex"... But in all essence, there is a lot of basic staple arranger functionality that needs a dedicated physical button, it just cant be replaced by a menu configuration or a "soft button"...

I think about arranger keyboards and other technology like this: how much can you achieve before needing to read the manual or watch hours of tutorial videos? sure you need a manual to go beyond the surface and deep dive to get into the nuts and bolts, but for an arranger keyboard with a large colour touch screen it shouldn't really be necessary.

Here are some examples:

The method you showed of switching from Arranger mode to solo voice (full keyboard) mode is absolutely ridiculous. Can you imagine trying to do all that on the fly while performing?

Sometimes while the arranger is playing I like to press 1 button (accomp) which immediately turns off tracks 3-8 for the base and accomp so all you hear are the 2 drum tracks that keep looping. then press the button again to bring them all back in. From what I can see - the most efficient way (on the fly) this can be achieved with the EVENT is to use the sliders to mute the 6 channels?... perhaps you have a way of programming this in the menu, but again what's wrong with having a dedicated button for such a staple feature? other brands have these buttons for a reason...

Another thing - you showed that you can have a row of soft buttons on the bottom of the screen for basic arranger functions like variations, fills, intros end endings - when you are playing live and you are trying to hit fills or switch functions in time, the touch screen doesn't always read your input unless you press it perfectly... And then if its a miss - you have missed a fill-in or a que for the next variation screwing up your performance. this happens to me on some korg keyboards where you need to press the track on the touch screen that you want to mute, and unmute etc...

I must say this keyboard is one of the most menu driven systems I have ever seen on any keyboard, probably even more than on my BK9 - which is a nightmare (death by scroll wheel!!)

You address the page up page down issue by saying you can assign 2 of the 7 assignable function (soft) buttons to these features... Now I am sure than any person that buys this keyboard will immediately want to set that up before anything else... so really you need to sacrifice 2 of the assignable soft buttons straight away for a basic function that simply should be there in the OS... hopefully something that can easily be addressed with an OS update??

Audio latency. you addressed this by saying that audio requires processing power / memory etc... so why not give the machine the right power it needs then?

Yamaha dabbled with audio styles for a little while (fair enough it wasn't as deep as Ketron) but still - no issues there with latency whatsoever.

You then mentioned that you can essentially go levels below to be on par with other arranger keyboards by using Midi styles to remove latency (as opposed to the real and live styles)... Lets be honest - the main hook to these Ketron boards is the Sound quality which comes from your AUDIO styles! To have latency on your flagship audio styles and use the fallback of "we are comparing to midi" doesn't sit well... it needs to be done right!

You made a lot of claims about how Ketron is next next level above the competition etc - but really in terms of the usability / interface it is not really ahead by any means. It pains me even thinking about trying to use that machine in a live situation.






Your points are well noted and so are your suggestions (most of which can be addressed with Registrations, Performance or 1 button - programmed or assigned to the tasks at hand).

I only have 2 questions to ask. You watched both videos at length and sated above that "I think one thing we can all agree on is - Social media is everything these days - his video just like your tutorial videos are all "Social media"... you make claims and observations, and so does everyone else over social media platforms."

1. What claims did I make which I was not able to illustrate on the instrument as a fact?

2. What claims did he make which have been proven not to be true?

Thanks,

AJ

Top
#507857 - 03/08/23 01:16 AM Re: KETRON EVENT - Your questions and doubts answered. [Re: Ketron_AJ]
Ingres Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 86
Loc: FWI
Funny (...) to see that no one complains about the price of the PA5X 76 in relation to its bugs and its complexity...
and that the majority of criticisms come from people who do not know Ketron brand and have not tested EVENT (or another Ketron kb) in real life...

just have a look at Bartłomiej Krzemiński videos; he owns other kbs too… but doesn’t seem to have problem with his Event.
On Psrtutorial, everyday brings false info: one user keeps saying there is no registration button on EVENT...

About complexity and usability, keep in mind
1 once you save your registration, you load it with ALL the environment necessary to play easily and smoothly,
as you prepared it before … and recalling it needs just typing two or three numbers.
2 the footswitch (ie FS13, not available on other brands) puts at your toetips 'buttons' not available on the kb (neither on other brands) ;
see user manual page 159: not new since Audya…

As for Ketron users, they keep waiting their Event kb : they already knew that bashing experience when Audya came out.
I will never say Korg or Yamaha are not good but, given what I know and have seen (videos and mainly real life)
about Tyros, Genos, PA4X, I know, despite their respective qualities, the ‘environment and philosophy’ is too different from what I am used to

When you use a brand for years (Yamaha, Korg), it is not easy understand another ...; same for Apple ... or cars...
even less when you don’t own one model of this other brand and never tested it personally…
Ketron is a little brand and can’t pay for talented demonstrators showing what few user will be able to do;
but Ketron users know … for years. To each user his needs…

Hope I am not dumb nor ridiculous...


Edited by Ingres (03/08/23 01:58 PM)
_________________________
from now on, on some forums, I make a screen copy... in case... time will tell
imagine some people you know having more power...luckily God knows best! Take it easy ... and funny!

Top
#507858 - 03/08/23 02:14 AM Re: KETRON EVENT - Your questions and doubts answered. [Re: Ketron_AJ]
Bernie9 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5466
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
I think you make a lot of sense. We all know that there are minuses and pluses with all keyboards, and navigation is important. However, there are workarounds like registrations that streamline and do away with button pushes. I also agree that there is a certain amount of hype in all presentations, and the real goal in making a decision is separating the wheat from the chaff.

I have owned most all keyboards in the last forty years, including Ketron Audya and others, and have waited until the bugs are ironed out. In all fairness, I must say that my Audya and SD40 have been and are trouble free and among the best I have ever owned.
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact

Top
#507859 - 03/08/23 02:16 AM Re: KETRON EVENT - Your questions and doubts answered. [Re: Ketron_AJ]
Nick G Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1093
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Ill start with question 2:
2. What claims did he make which have been proven not to be true?
Yes you have definitely addressed every concern by giving a method to achieve what he claims is "missing". I am merely giving my feedback stating that the "method" of achieving most of the staple standard arranger functions are tedious and counter productive.

My real point to most of what I said above was not to say - it cant be done on the EVENT, I just think that the overall control and interface design puts a shadow over such a beautiful machine.

Its just a shame - there is so much real estate on the keyboard yet the buttons and controllers you have decided to include are all squashed together where they could be laid out more intuitively over the keyboard for ease of operation (and understanding). and of course -there could definitely have been more buttons. (think of the Roland EA-7) at a glance it looks like a nightmare - but it is in fact one of the easiest arrangers to pick up and use.


Now to answer #1 -
you asked me to provide examples of your "claims"... Ide rather not go down a tit for tat scenario but since you asked smile

35:25 "I just downnn graded the EVENT to a Midi Arranger just like any other midi arranger out there"

hmmmmm given that ALL your competitor products are Midi Arrangers is basically giving off the impression or "claiming" superiority. Although Midi styles may sound inferior to audio, it has a lot of benefits over the audio styles (for example - editability) so its not reallllly a downgrade...

36:00 "Ketron as an example leaping years ahead of other arranger manufacturers". ehhh maybe in the audio style department but same could be said from other brands about some of the features and sounds in their keyboards too... its a very subjective area...

37:02 "There's a reason why people are always trying to compete or compare or try to sound like an EVENT"... who is??

Keyboard players are always on the hunt for the best sound no matter what - whether its through sampling, editing / sound creation or chasing the latest and hottest gear.

It all depends on what style or genre of music you are playing as well - not to mention how easy and intuitive the machine is to operate... I could probably guarantee you that If I had an EVENT or any other Ketron Product I would be trying to add and improve the sounds and styles of its EDM / Synth Department... does that mean I'm trying to make the EVENT sound like a Korg or Yamaha? (I remember When I owned the Audya5 it was total lack luster in that category for synth, EDM, Trance etc).

By the way - in no way am I stating that other brands are perfect - not by any means! In fact I have a huge list of issues and bug bears with Yamaha Korg and also Roland keyboards. I only wish that other manufacturer designers and product specialists posted here so I/we could give constructive feedback to them - publicly!

Unfortunately you seem to be one of the only reps that is regularly active on SZ to be available to take the heat smile
_________________________
Yamaha PSR SX900 / Roland G70 / Roland BK9 / Korg PA700 / Roland GW-8L

Top
#507862 - 03/08/23 03:20 AM Re: KETRON EVENT - Your questions and doubts answered. [Re: Bernie9]
Ingres Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 86
Loc: FWI
To Bernie

'They' may say we are dreamers ... imagine .... but we are not the only ones! Some ones will join us !
Anyhow, as a little brand, Ketron can't produce by hundreds...
Endless and useless battle!
What if Ketron users went on other brands topics to criticize and show what they can do easier or don't exist elsewhere?
Ha ok.... they have no time for that: they prefer playing on their kb as they are satisfied with it!


Edited by Ingres (03/08/23 04:18 AM)
_________________________
from now on, on some forums, I make a screen copy... in case... time will tell
imagine some people you know having more power...luckily God knows best! Take it easy ... and funny!

Top
#507863 - 03/08/23 04:17 AM Re: KETRON EVENT - Your questions and doubts answered. [Re: Ketron_AJ]
guitpic1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/16/14
Posts: 1947
Loc: Missouri
Video well done AJ 😊👍
_________________________
It’s all about the learning

Top
#507864 - 03/08/23 10:11 AM Re: KETRON EVENT - Your questions and doubts answered. [Re: guitpic1]
Ketron_AJ Offline
Moderator

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3547
Loc: Middletown, DE
Originally Posted By guitpic1
Video well done AJ 😊👍


Thanks. More coming ....
_________________________
[KETRON - USA]
Design Engineer & Product Specialist.
www.KetronAmerica.com

Top
#507869 - 03/08/23 01:32 PM Re: KETRON EVENT - Your questions and doubts answered. [Re: Ketron_AJ]
Diki Online   content


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 13993
Loc: NW Florida
I still hate the ‘mine is better than yours’ that permeates forums like this one.

I will, and have (!) criticized the flaws in my own keyboard as often as I do others. We are not representatives of any brand (other than AJ), we are CUSTOMERS. Our job is to expose whatever flaws we find in whatever and all arrangers, in the hope (seldom achieved) of encouraging each manufacturer to fix and improve the breed as a whole.

Each of us needs to find the one arranger that suits us best, but also to realize that everybody else probably isn’t using their arranger the EXACT same way we are. Their needs, if they understand them well enough, are most likely different from us. The brand we choose will often not be right for others.

And reviews that expose flaws, bugs, and non-standard ways of achieving arranger play are NOT ‘bashing’, they are the best thing to have here. The collapse of brick and mortar stores has reduced us all to buying without trying (or at least buying then paying a hefty restocking fee if we don’t like it). The last thing we need is reviewers getting called ‘fanboys’ if they write a review that contradicts your desires!

Personally, an arranger review from someone coming from another brand is about the best possible way of learning about a new piece of gear. Let’s face it, that’s what most of us do… leave one brand for another now that the new model cycle has bumped up to five years or more with most brands. Let’s hear what hoops and adjustments making that move is likely to do to us!

And yes, while there may be workarounds most cross-brand migration, they may not be obvious to early reviewers. How practical some of those workarounds are is up to the customer to decide, not the seller! I had to make some SERIOUS changes in my workflow just going from the G70 to the BK9, and that was the same brand! Some of them still aren’t quite as good as the original method…

But the other side of the coin was, took me a while, but some things turned out to be FAR better once I learned to adapt to the new method. An early reviewer may not stumble across the new way with a limited hands-on…

Just don’t forget. You don’t work for Yamaha or Korg. You probably don’t own stock in them. To my knowledge, AJ is the only person here with any connection whatsoever with a manufacturer or distributor. So get off your high horses, and embrace criticism and debate! It’s the only damn way any of us is going to find out anything other than what the manufacturers want us to know…

The devil is in the details. Let the devil speak..! 🎹
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >

Moderator:  Admin, Diki, Kerry 



Help keep Synth Zone Online