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#398122 - 01/12/15 12:02 PM Active PA..trend toward line array systems
guitpic1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/16/14
Posts: 1950
Loc: Missouri
The recent thread on active PA systems got me to thinking...

I'm always interested in getting a better sound at a gig...to that end, I'm always reading about, and occasionally trying out new PA systems.

I've owned a number of traditional PA systems to include Yamaha's DXR which are great speakers to my ear.

But since the advent of line array systems...sort of started with the Bose L1 systems, it seems to me that line array is the coming trend.

For example, HK, Maui and Bose(others?)all produce line array(I believe they are line array systems) systems for smaller gigs. Also, Centerpoint is producing a very interesting unique(supposed stereo) speaker system in the Spacestation V.3.

I'm also seeing line array systems produced by Peavey and others..but intended for larger venues.

I've used some form of Bose L1 since they first became available almost 10 years ago. Since then, I've moved to the L1 Compact system, still my go to system.

We play to very small audiences...100 folks or less in smaller venues where these line array systems shine.

But that said, I'm wondering if the days of the more traditional speaker systems are limited?

Curious as usual.

Rog L.







Edited by guitpic1 (01/12/15 12:03 PM)
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#398124 - 01/12/15 12:46 PM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Rog,

The main benefit of the traditional speaker system is exactly the disadvantage that the Bose (and other line arrays) seem to overcome...sound fall off.

When I played at the restaurant, using my Yamaha MS-60S powered speakers, those who wished to talk and not listen to the music simply were seated far enough away where it wouldn't interfere.

If I was using a Bose system, the sound would still be heard at relatively the same volume no matter where they were seated...that's why the regular speakers worked so well in my case.

I suspect other venues would benefit from speaker sound fall off.

A rented Bose system (actually two of 'em in stereo) worked extremely well for me when I was doing a theater gig and wanted full coverage with little or no sound drop off at all points in the venue.

So each fills a specific need.

Ian


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#398129 - 01/12/15 02:01 PM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
Question...in my home where I play (small den)
What would be a good stereo system for Arranger play??
I currently have 2 Mackie HR824's and I think I will sell them and get something different.
Thanks,
Lee
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#398130 - 01/12/15 02:08 PM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: leeboy]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By: leeboy
Question...in my home where I play (small den)
What would be a good stereo system for Arranger play??
I currently have 2 Mackie HR824's and I think I will sell them and get something different.
Thanks,
Lee


In a small den, it's unlikely you're going to improve much on a couple of Nearfield monitors like the 824's. They're a little bass-heavy but other than that, what don't you like about them?

chas
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#398131 - 01/12/15 02:23 PM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
Just seems like overkill as to power...and maybe I could sell them (they are like new, never been out of my house) and get something lighter/smaller
Lee
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#398133 - 01/12/15 02:34 PM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
Bill Lewis Offline
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Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 2441
Loc: Bluffton/Hilton Head SC USA
Why sell the Mackies and lose money even thought they've never left your home. they look like perfect speakers for a small room. If you like the sound but feel they're too powerful just turn them down or get a small mixer for more control. I sometimes go thru the same thing and after going round with all the options I realize I'm just changing something for no reason.


Edited by Bill Lewis (01/12/15 02:37 PM)
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#398134 - 01/12/15 03:06 PM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
Good points... I guess since I have not had anything else..I wander if a speaker system like on Tyros with powerd wolfer might sound better. I guess the Mackies are darn good so maybe not??
Lee
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#398137 - 01/12/15 03:37 PM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Still using Logitech Z2200s in my "studio". Also Z5500 in the living room for surround sound.
Not sure what the latest reincarnation of the Z2200s is, but if it's as good as these old ones, it would be worthy of consideration.
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#398141 - 01/12/15 06:10 PM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
So, Don,
These are just home audio powered PC type speakers??
I did find these: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/logitech-2-1...kuId=1311968973

I wander if they are similar...they seem too cheap to be any good?


Thanks,
Lee
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#398143 - 01/12/15 06:35 PM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I have the Logitech Z-2300 system...it's incredible, especially the sub woofer...hard to imagine a system originally designed for games and movies could sound so great on a keyboard...but it does.

Ian
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#398144 - 01/12/15 07:13 PM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
J. Larry Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/99
Posts: 521
Loc: University, MS 38677 USA
Like others, I’ve sold and purchased new speakers for years, always looking for something better in an affordable price range. I may have found it with two compacts and a Yamaha arranger. Now, what to do with those new Mackies---model 350 v3? I used the Mackies about a half dozen times and just couldn’t get accustomed to the sound. Thankfully, there are lots of options in speaker systems. My taste in live audio is that clear, clean, hi-fi sound that Bose seems to produce. Traditional speakers just don’t excite anymore. Also, I really like the sound of powered studio monitors over traditional PA speakers. I’ve had good luck with those setups, as well, in live solo playing.

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#398145 - 01/12/15 07:18 PM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
Ian,
OK....I see them used...but they must have been replaced by another model.I will do some research. So, do they sound as good better as the ones for T4 from Yamaha?

Do you use them on your T4 at home?
Thanks,
Lee
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#398148 - 01/12/15 09:03 PM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: leeboy]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: leeboy
Ian,
OK....I see them used...but they must have been replaced by another model.I will do some research. So, do they sound as good better as the ones for T4 from Yamaha?

Do you use them on your T4 at home?
Thanks,
Lee


Hi Lee...to me they sounded better than the system included with the demo Tyros3 I had...I didn't compare them with the T4's optional speakers as I didn't get them with the keyboard, and, on our clinics, we used a stereo PA system.

I also used them on the S910 I had at my old house, and they were wicked!

The sub-woofer is amazing and actually quite heavy.

I'm presently using my trusty Yamaha MS-60S powered monitors here in the apartment...I have the Z-2300's hooked up to the television I use exclusively for playing my PlayStation2 and GT4 driving game.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#398149 - 01/12/15 11:56 PM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
As I said, I don't know what the current equivalent would be.
I actually played a number of small jobs with the Z 2200s. They handled up to 50 people quite easily and they sound terrific. I used to keep them in a bag for backup system or for when I needed a second setup.
Probably the best value for the dollar I've ever seen .
Also Logitech offers terrific support. I know Gary Diamond had a problem with one and they sent him a new one and told him to keep the old one.
I bought my first set from DNJ and liked it so much I bought a second set new. We made stands for the satellites out of fold-up music stands. We velcroed the remote to the sub and transport it all in a small duffel bag. That's not a good idea though. I never had a problem, but Gary had a couple go out and after Logitech replaced them they told him that the vibration from the sub at high volume was causing connections inside the remote control to break down!
I sold my second set to my friend Dean Mathis and he is still using it to play small nursing homes. Must be close to ten years old now!
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#398159 - 01/13/15 06:54 AM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: DonM]
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
Thanks..guys for the input...
I will go a few places to listen to these types...and let you know what I discover,
Lee

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#398213 - 01/14/15 04:43 PM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
I would suggest the HK Nano 300. You could place the satellite speakers anywhere in the room and put the base/bass unit nearer to you for control purposes. Don Mason had a pair for sale recently, $475 ea...
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#398219 - 01/14/15 09:24 PM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
One is sold, but I have one left so far. They are great!
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#398225 - 01/15/15 06:28 AM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
Remember guys...I am playing in a 12x20 room.
I want great quality, but don't need to fill a room full of dancers.
Thanks,
Lee
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#398227 - 01/15/15 06:36 AM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Bose L1 Compact - does it all!
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#398235 - 01/15/15 08:05 AM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
One advantage of the Nano 300 over Bose is that you can get true stereo from one unit. Plus the sound is warmer with a little more guts in the bass.
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#398237 - 01/15/15 08:09 AM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
rosetree
Unregistered


I would clearly opt for the stereo system then, i.e. Nano 300.

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#398243 - 01/15/15 08:56 AM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
The Nano 300 is a nice system, especially for smaller venues where you don't have to worry about falloff. And, keep in mind that the stereo effect is quite small. Pretty much everyone hears mono in the room. The only true benefit from stereo is that fuller sounds of right hand instruments that are heavily stereo sampled, pianos mainly. So, if you are really heavy into the piano, then stereo can be very beneficial to you. But, if you kick into the guitars, horns, saxes, brass, it makes no difference at all.

Now, if eventually you begin performing larger venues, the falloff of the 300 can be problematic. That falloff is significant, but not as dramatic as some of the older, conventional sound systems. Some of the older systems had up to 50 percent falloff at 50 feet, which was nasty. Consequently, the band cranked up the volume to distortion levels in order to reach those in the back of the room with reasonable levels of volume, thereby blowing the heads off those individuals closer to the speakers. This problem was eliminated when Bose came out with the L1 PAS system several years ago, where the falloff was less than 10 percent at 100 feet. Big difference between the stacked vertical array and conventional sound systems.

I only brought a single L1 Compact with me to Florida, and I'll be performing outdoors. That system easily handled audiences to 250 ppl a few years ago and carried out across Boot Key harbor for incredible distances. It sure made a believer out of me, and many of the other visiting musicians there whom also sold their old systems and went with Bose.

All the best,

Gary cool
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PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#398244 - 01/15/15 09:26 AM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
rosetree
Unregistered


To me the worst sound in mono are string sections. Beautiful, realistic string samples lose everything if they are amplified in mono. Yamaha Motif acoustic guitars excel because they have stereo samples too.
I think in medium rooms most listeners do perceive a certain degree of the stereo effect. But it depends a lot on the type of music played, in my case, e.g. when emulating a symphony orchestral sounds, it is very important. For dance music, it's surely less important.

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#398246 - 01/15/15 10:13 AM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
This is true, those strings always sound fantastic in stereo, and those acoustic guitars are fabulous. However, there is a simple formula for stereo. It can only be heard effectively in an area that is an equilateral triangle based upon the spread of the speakers. Therefore, if the speakers are 30 feet apart, the triangular stereo effect area only extends to 30 feet directly in front of the speakers. Once you get outside that triangle, the effect is lost. Now, the overall sound quality is not lost, instead it becomes mixed, but still sounds very, very good. No argument there. The person that tends to benefit most from stereo is the performer himself. He, or she, is positioned in the perfect spot to enjoy that wonderful stereo sampling that Yamaha seems to excel with in several unique sounds.

And, you are right about the dance music - which is highly dependent upon the bass, drums and vocals, or lead instrument(s). Symphony is a totally different animal in this respect. Ironically, when I was a much younger man, I installed sound systems for a company called Executone. We put systems in very large theaters, locations where the Baltimore Symphony frequently provided concerts. All of those systems were mono - not stereo. We used vertical array sound columns in each corner of the venues, some weighing up to 150 pounds each and sporting a dozen or more 8-inch speakers in the sound column. They were suspended from the corners of the room and curved so the sound would project towards the middle of the venue. We then placed subs beneath the stage, and a circular array of speakers in the middle of he ceiling. It was a nasty, often dangerous job, and I only worked there for a year when I decided to quit before I ended up getting myself killed from an accidental fall. Just after I left, a scaffolding fell 30 feet to the floor or a large cathedral where three installers were seriously injured. One of them never was able to return to work because of his back injuries from that fall.

Cheers,

Gary cool
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#398249 - 01/15/15 12:16 PM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
rosetree
Unregistered


I am convinced some stereo can be perceived way outside of the triangle you mentioned. It is probably no "effective" stereo (whatever that is exactly), but a residual perception of the spacial stereo dimension in a sound.
The link below is a recording of a wedding I had in 2012. My recorder was placed on the organ gallery at the opposite side of the church to where the singer and I were placed, at a distance of at least 130-150 feet. My speakers were placed on one keyboard stand, only 3 feet from each other. But nevertheless, I can still detect a slight stereo in my piano sound at this distance if I listen to the recording with headphones. It would sound different if my system had been mono. (BTW, back then I used the BK-7m).
https://soundcloud.com/rorosetree/hochzeitsmusik-somewhere

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#398251 - 01/15/15 12:32 PM Re: Active PA..trend toward line array systems [Re: guitpic1]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Good song, but I believe what you were hearing is not stereo, but instead, the echo of the piano, at least that's the way it sounds to my aging ears.

The absolutely best stereo effects recording I've heard in my entire life was done by Ferrante and Teicher



Gary cool
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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