Is this the Beginning of the End for Arranger KBs?
It just seems like after this last wave of models from all manufacturers we are at a stand still and truthfully what if anything can they come up with that will get players any more excited. As it stands now there is more then enough sound, styles, features, bells & whistles, to make all kinds of music if you take the time to dig in and learn your unit and it's capabilities. Of course there are always those who would like things implemented just for their needs but that in no way is general enough to warrant a big design change. Then we have the competition of rapidly changing technology & music in general that will definitely alter what we now know as the traditional arranger KB in the future if at all ....or is this the beginning of the end?.

I remember thinking back in 1976 that my Lowery Contempo 80 organ was the last instrument I'd ever need. How could they improve that?

Gary

All I can do is hope Winter NAMM 2015 brings some ground breaking NEW designs in arranger KB's...fingers crossed.

Hey Don
I remember when I finally had two B3's that I really liked, one for the studio and one for the road I was set for life. Many keyboards later I had 3 / G1000's, and thought oh boy, I'm done buying keyboards LOL !!!

Donny
I think the bigger question is this the end of OMB's as we know them ? If there's a demand for more Arrangers they will be made but I don't see it. And as you said if you really dig into any of the better ones out there they are really all you need.

Omb is dwindling vs todays music if your gigging qith an arranger....NH gigs is a diff story not effected.....its a new world out there...adapt or you'll be staying home.

Sorry, Donny, I must have missed something is NH nursing homes?

God Bless,
Don

Don ... yes ...

Hey Donnie:

I think we have "flown through this barn before" but my two cents worth is "never!" As long as people with talent like you guys are willing to go gigging and endure the drunks and wannabee's... there will always be Arrangers. I'd bet Mason's favorite house cat that we will see some remarkable improvements. These folks know what they are doing and they know how to sucker-punch us when we think we are gaining ground on them... LOL!

All my best,

Dave Rice

http://www.ShowCaseYourMusic.com/DaveRice/

Donny, do you have more jobs scheduled for 2015 or fewer? For me, I am taking six months off, and still have more jobs than the previous year for the same time period. And, I still have a couple places that have not booked 2015 yet, but they will within the next few days.

These are not ALL nursing home/assisted living facilities. Several are private parties for specific holiday occasions. Others are staff parties, and there's the usual number of wedding anniversaries, birthday parties, etc...

Now, there are at least three new retirement communities opening within 15 minutes drive time from my home. One, that opened just a month ago, has already called and booked me for six months of 2015.

I was at a golf course country club yesterday, I was introduced to the club manager, and she said "Oh, I've heard about you. Would you be interested in performing at the country club a couple times a month beginning in January?" When I explained that I will not be in Maryland until the end of March 2015, she said that's fine, but could I please send her a contract listing some specific dates so she could advertise them in her country club newsletter. And, that was after I told her my fee.

So, maybe things are going sour in NJ, but for us southern OMB guys and gals, we sincerely believe that OMB entertainers using arranger keyboards are going to be around for a long time to come. Donny, you've been playing this same, old tune for a couple years now, and the answer from all of us has and will be the same - we're here for the duration. You may be in a state of panic about the future of arranger keyboards, but no one in my part of the world is gonna loose a minute's sleep over your post.

Gary

About not being able to improve on arrangers or whatever. It calls to mind a documentary I saw a few years back on PBS I think that stated that the head of the patent office for the USA wanted to shut it down, because he said that everything was already invented. He said there is nothing new to invent. This was in the 1890's

Our perception of arranger keyboards in the U.S.A. is very different then other countries. When I visit Mexico I typically see OMB performing at restaurants, hotels, and all sorts of events. Maybe arranger keyboards just never caught on here?

There are still new people buying arranger keyboards for the first time ,for them, it is a miracle instrument that is an answered prayer to their needs. Although we are used to all the features that we have experienced in arrangers over the years ,many people who have just discovered arranger keyboards have just started on their love affair and features that are old to us new to them. So long as there are individuals that want to create full sounding music easily, then arranger keyboards will have a market . And so long as people still enjoy listening to live music then there will be an audience for one man bands

I've seen many wonderfully talented Mexican guys playing arrangers both here and in Mexico. Most I've seen don't have the latest totl models, but sound great on what they have.
Just recently heard one using a PSR2000. Terrific sound!
I have sold psr 8000, Tyros 2, and pa3x to friends of mine south of the border!
On all occasions a relative living in the US delivered it to them.

Well here's the view from Southern NJ and this being a tourist area I think its a good representative of a lot of the US now. I may have missed something hidden in a corner but I do monitor the local scene pretty well.

Live Bands -- a Few. 5 -9 piece show/dance groups that travel in for special gigs.
One very good local Blues Band that works about 2 times a month
2/3 piece groups with Backing tracks. --- A lot and more that travel into the area
Guitar player /singers with / without backing tracks--- A million and counting . Lots doing "Open Mics" for free.
DJs who sing with tracks or just DJ. A handfull, some working for tuna sandwiches.
Solo Pianists --- Three, but spotty gigs. Two travel in ( both with International Resumes ) and a local guy just got cut by a local winery so two who are working.
Solo singer who sings with tracks from his keyboard --- 1
Does the same act and uses the same tracks with his Wedding band.
Arranger OMB's ---Me, thats makes 1, but I also DJ and am moving into backing tracks. Otherwise none, nada, zilch , 0, not even in NH.

So how does that translate into instrument sales, which drive manufactures to bring out new models, which is what we started the thread about ? Very low percentage of working musicians using them but I can't speak for the home hobbist.

Ezxactly Bill as the OP Title says...
"Is this the Beginning of the End for NEW Arranger KBs" it should say..

Despite this gathering of pros, semi-pros and advanced enthusiasts, I would think the largest market in the U.S. is home players, many who years ago would be playing pianos or organs. If you want to talk about a dying market, try either of those instruments.

As mentioned in previous threads, all the manufactures say (Off the record) that arranger sales are on the slide, with the main clientele being 70+ and using about 2% of current arranger keyboards capabilities, thus it will have to change or go the way of the organ market in the late 90s on.

Ironically with advent of new entry level organs (And the adaptions of arrangers into organ style setups) organs are making a resurgence. (It’s never going to go back to what it was but it is encouraging) Basically users are getting fed up of pressing a button and playing along to a style, but instead want to try full playing themselves, (Which is much more satisfying)

If you think about it everybody enjoyed the music made before styles, using just a drum box, and the artist could be identified by their playing style, (Something that is virtually none existent on arrangers) which made them stand out.

Arrangers need to change if they are to survive, (Rumours are abound that Yamaha is working on something new to get themselves out of the downward spiral) and sticking your head in the sand is not going to cut it.

Bill

I talked to one of the PR guys at Yamaha a decade ago about the makeup of the consumers for arranger keyboards. He said it's very similar to the makeup of those who previously purchased organs. Less than 1/10th of 1-percent are pros and semi-pro musicians, the remainder are home players. And that's who every keyboard manufacturer markets to - not guys like us on this and a few other forums. We are nothing than a speck of fly crap in a mountain of pepper. In fact, I'm amazed that Yamaha and other manufacturers has responded to our wishes as much as they have. For the most part, they have granted nearly all our wishes during the past 20 years.

Bill, I'm amazed that there are not more OMB entertainers in NJ using arranger keyboards. Granted, there's only a handful of us in my part of the mid-Atlantic region, but I would think that there would be far more in your area, mainly because of the number of retirement communities and assisted living centers. Down here, in the frozen wilds of Maryland, retirement communities are springing up all over the place, and the demand for guys like me is incredible.

In the Florida Keys, especially during the height of tourist season, there are hundreds of places that have musical entertainment nearly every night of the week. For the most part, it's "Have Guitar Will Travel" entertainers that by and large, are not really very versatile. Consequently, when an OMB entertainer that can sing well, and has a reasonably good arranger keyboard, and can read an audience shows up, the guitar guys usually take a back seat. I talked with a friend in Washington State that also has more jobs than he can handle, and he charges about the same as I do.

Now, I don't use many mid files and absolutely no MP3 backing tracks. And, I only know of one OMB guy in my part of the mid-Atlantic region that does, and he only performs once a week at most. Those of us that pretty much use the onboard styles and can sing fairly well are working 5 to 7 days a week, often doing a fair number of doubles and a some triples. That has to tell you something.

Good luck,

Gary

We don’t need better arranger keyboards. We need better musicians to play what we already have because the law of diminishing returns, reference arrangers, is finally beginning to surface. Really.....the only thing left is for the manufacturer to stock up the OS with pre-set songs so you can just press the stop for whatever tune you want and move your hands like you’re playing.

But let me correct what I just said. We don’t need just “better musicians.” We need musicians playing arranger keyboards “better.”

Many play arranger keyboards, but few players really milk the keyboard dry with everything that it’s capable of doing now!

View Don's post #395724

QUOTE: "I've seen many wonderfully talented Mexican guys playing arrangers both here and in Mexico. Most I've seen don't have the latest totl models, but sound great on what they have."

It appears the more gimmicks a keyboard has, the more the player relies on it to do all the work.

Mark

Mark, I've been saying some variation of this for a long time now but that just gets me accused of being an "arranger hater". Why me and not you? Can't say, really. Must just be my 'winning personality' .

Truth is, I don't 'hate' arrangers at all, I just don't view them as professional instruments that are normally used in your average professional venue. I think Gary's post bears this out. Truth be told, what I REALLY find annoying is the number of narcissistic chest thumpers who pass themselves off as musicians ('pro' at that) yet can't play a single instrument at even a semi-pro or advanced amateur level. Their trademark is the constant clamoring for more and more 'self-play' features (so as to better fool the public, I imagine). No matter how much you deny it, the use of specific song styles, SMF's, and MP3's just makes you a glorified Karaoke act with perhaps, better visuals.

Now don't get me wrong, it's not that Arrangers CAN'T sound good in the right hands (witness people like Marco Parisi) but it's because these guys are MUSICIANS. Nearly everyone here talks about this or that 'amazing' feature, but we rarely if ever hear a discussion about playing technique, arrangement concepts, practice regimens, or even artist (musicians) that they admire (most topics are about themselves and how they 'wowed' their audiences).

Personally, using arrangers for 1hr NH gigs is perfectly acceptable and makes good economic sense for those who can't keep a bunch of old folks entertained for one hour on an acoustic piano, but please, leave it there; don't take those things into upscale country clubs (unless you're booking it as a karaoke act) and fine dining venues. Leave those for the 'starving musicians' who've paid their dues and actually learned to play their instruments (and rarely brag about it - ever notice how people that are really good at something are the most humble about it).

Don't get me wrong. There are certainly a handful of 'pro-quality' musicians on this board - Russ, Al, DonM, to name a few, for whom this 'rant' does not apply, and have shown many times over that they are capable of 'pro-quality' performances, but sadly, they are a minority in the world of Arranger keyboard players and EACH is more than proficient on another 'legitimate' instrument.

So, will we soon see the end of the Arranger keyboard? Does it really matter? Good music will continue to emerge (but probably not from arranger keyboards). JMO.

chas

Chas

I agree that better musicians should win out but they don't. Its market driven and what sells is "Entertainment" not musicianship for the most part. I can play acoustic piano and sing pretty well but will I get hired anywhere, no. As I said in my other post, there are two guys just playing piano here and they are both world class. A few people notice their fine playing but most are there for dinner and really don't care.
I've gotten a big education since moving here and have decided to give em what they want. I'm moving into the dreaded SMF's, but they do sound fuller than anything I could play live. Its economice too. 6 piece bands are down to 2 or 3. Solo acts need to sound like 3 or 4. Saw a new duo the other night Guy with an old Korg 01w keyboard, computer, and a really good female vocalist. Even his keyboard solos were pre-recorded. did anyone care, no. They appalauded and danced as thought there was a really good live band there.
I used to use two keyboards and bass pedals with a live drummer. Love to do it again but those days are gone. Its a strange business these days. I like you don't like it but it is what it is.

Bill, I'm amazed that there are not more OMB entertainers in NJ using arranger keyboards. Granted, there's only a handful of us in my part of the mid-Atlantic region, but I would think that there would be far more in your area, mainly because of the number of retirement communities and assisted living centers. Down here, in the frozen wilds of Maryland, retirement communities are springing up all over the place, and the demand for guys like me is incredible.

In the Florida Keys, especially during the height of tourist season, there are hundreds of places that have musical entertainment nearly every night of the week. For the most part, it's "Have Guitar Will Travel" entertainers that by and large, are not really very versatile. Consequently, when an OMB entertainer that can sing well, and has a reasonably good arranger keyboard, and can read an audience shows up, the guitar guys usually take a back seat.

Gary

Your killing me. I gotta move !!! I really don't want to do NH but have tried. They just don't pay musicians. One large one told me her entertainment budget for the month was $150. She offered me $50 for an hour and said she would give me another $25 out of her pocket. I politely declined. Others just rely on what they get for free. This business relies a lot on where you are and the demographics.
Maybe "The Villages" in Fla. is the place to be.

You definitely don't want to be at The Villages in Florida - too many retired musicians that will play for free, which is pretty much the case with most of the west coast of Florida. Much better along Florida's east coast, the keys, and panhandle where Diki lives.

Of course, you could always set up a weekly gig similar to the one that DNJ has been doing for many, many years. I would do it down here, but that means you would not be able to take an extended vacation, and no matter what, you have to work that night, 52 weeks a year. In the right location, this can be quite profitable, but it does take a lot of legwork in order to get it up and running.

I could easily do this down here, and have been asked by many seniors to do this. It's a matter of finding the right location at a bargain price, then advertising the weekly dance event, doing a lot of promotion in targeted locations, spreading the word. Both DNJ and his wife Nancy keep this weekly event going and work very hard to make it successful. Depending on how you set things up, this can be quite profitable. There are a half-dozen larger halls and catering services that have done this down here, most charging about $8 to $12 per person, including snacks and soft drinks. The cost of the snacks and beverages is minimal at best when purchased at one of the warehouse grocery outlets. If you have 200 people a week, that translates into a hefty profit. Add to that a couple NH/assisted living jobs a week, and the income becomes livable.

Hope this helps,

Gary

chas ... you sometimes paint with too broad a brush ... I know quite a number of excellent musicians - piano players mostly, and even one fine jazz alto sax player - in the New York/New Jersey area who after spending years honing their craft and making considerable money entertaining people by singing and playing - most with small combos - are now arranger players ... WHY?, because that is what is NOW keeping them working ... unfortunately, the opportunities to play gigs with 2 or 3 other musicians are becoming less and less, so they now play an arranger using bass, drums, and maybe guitar backing ... and the general audience in these upscale country clubs and fine dining venues actually ENJOY it ...

Gary

I've thought that over a lot. I did those type of gigs for years for other people who ran them. Central Jersey Singles and the Nifty Fifties, gotta love those names. They're just not enough people here to support it or who will pay a decent admission fee. As I said , demographics. Donny has the largest active adult population in the state concentrated in his area. In the one develpoment alone where my inlaws lived there's over 1200 homes. And there's lots more all around as in your case with NHs.
The local VFW here gets some Ballroom dancers and Line dancers in on Fri nights and the DJ cateres to them. Its free music for them although the rest of the crowd, including me, is bored to death with the same songs every week. When he plays "Sex On the Beach" I feel like Lou Costello -- slowly I turned, LOL !
I fill in there ocassionally and they will drive you nuts with constant requests for the same songs. You can't be too rude but they totally got me off my pace and I didn't enjoy the night.
The only decent hall I can find is in a firehouse but the least they will let it go for on a weekend is $500. Regular price is $700. And there's no bar which I think is a plus to draw any people.
I'm going to try the newspaper ad thing next.

$500 is a heavy hit - down here the local fire hall will let me use the place for $100 a night. Of course, I have to do the cleanup afterwards, but that's not a big deal. At this point, I just want to spend more time sailing, fishing, playing with the grandson, and less time working.

Bill, take a look at Goog Maps for some Assisted living/retirement communities near you. You may find something that will work out for you.

Gary

Thanks Gary

It is a lot but the place is really fantastic. Just did a party there. Super big stage, large kitchen and room for 250. With the price you get a janitor/manager and you have to take him. They don't allow any party without their supervision and down her I don't blame them.
I've been updating a list of facilities so we'll see.

Tony, I probably do ("paint with too broad a brush") from time to time, but I tried to make it clear that I was not talking about the "excellent musicians" playing arranger kb's, but the posers using arranger keyboards to pass themselves off as "excellent musicians".

Let me state loud and clear; for those who truly depend on the music business for a livelihood, I say "do whatever it takes" to get the job done, BUT, for those that really don't need the money but opportunistically use the technology to satisfy one's ego or realize some teenage fantasy of performing before screaming, worshiping crowds (let's face it; you're NOT going to get the girls anymore ), but are not willing to put in the (musical) work (why practice, let the computer do it), I say, leave the true performance venues (CC's, jazz clubs, fine dining venues, etc.) to legitimate musicians playing legitimate music on legitimate instruments. In that scenario, people like Bill Lewis and Mark would have a much easier time finding work.

Just sayin'

chas

Dues ... Schmooze - I've paid more than my share, and the instrument had nothing to do with it. Starving musicians do not deserve any job I can handle because I'm smart enough to play what the client WANTS TO PAY for. I will never starve ... in music, or elsewhere. I do plenty of upscale events on my arranger keyboard, and it's nobody's business how much is automated or how much is manually generated. There is a place for solo, acoustic players and most of those places won't pay much because they don't GENERATE enough income from the addition of that "seasoned, albeit starving" pro player. You have a lot of nerve telling anyone what to play or where it's appropriate.

The relationship between a client and a performer is based on need and value. You provide a service worth selling .... and people will buy it. Econ 101

What a crock. More often than not it's about who will play for the least amount of peanuts. And although my quote above was said mostly tongue-in-cheek, the last sentence (in parens) was said in sincerity.

chas

Come check them out here:- http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthread..._WOR#Post395903

... then maybe you will find out the potential of the Arranger Keyboard - yet to be tapped in the USA.