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#381268 - 01/12/14 12:26 PM Re: Yamaha Audio in Styles [Re: DannyUK]
rosetree
Unregistered


Considering that audio styles are "the way they are" once they have been recorded, whereas for midi styles every single note of every instrument involved can be eliminated or recomposed - I think it is probably quite expensive for the manufacturer to be up-to-date regarding the newest pop music with audio styles. If some new dance or rhythm has been invented, all a manufacturer had to do up to now was reprogram the midi styles with the samples already existing, maybe add a certain drum sample. With audio styles, real musicians have to be hired again for a sampling session.

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#381269 - 01/12/14 12:31 PM Re: Yamaha Audio in Styles [Re: ]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Originally Posted By: rosetree
Considering that audio styles are "the way they are" once they have been recorded, whereas for midi styles every single note of every instrument involved can be eliminated or recomposed - I think it is probably quite expensive for the manufacturer to be up-to-date regarding the newest pop music with audio styles. If some new dance or rhythm has been invented, all a manufacturer had to do up to now was reprogram the midi styles with the samples already existing, maybe add a certain drum sample. With audio styles, real musicians have to be hired again for a sampling session.


exactly right....you create, record, etc, your OWN or use commercial, factory Midi styles or SMF file songs and Edit Every Single part, note, fx, etc, till the cows come home to make it the way YOU want! ...not so with audio styles...

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#381270 - 01/12/14 01:21 PM Re: Yamaha Audio in Styles [Re: DannyUK]
Bernie9 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5514
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
Even though I love the realism of the audio in my Audya,therE are many times I want a more laid back sound of my 910 or KN7000. In addition, I prefer to work with midi for my sequences, except for MP3 on vocal back up. Of coarse, I am an old guy that doesn't want everything to change on me.
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#381272 - 01/12/14 01:48 PM Re: Yamaha Audio in Styles [Re: travlin'easy]
Marcus Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/12
Posts: 210
Loc: Canada
Having played my Tyros 5 since last month, I am really impressed with the styles in general plus the 50 audio styles. Owning a T4 for backup, most of the same T5 styles by name were reworked with improved voices and some intro/ending patterns updated.

Mostly impressed by me besides the audio parts was the Country style category. There are only 2 audio country styles, but with the new guitar voices and DSP effects the other styles are unbelievable, not mentioning the incorporated human vocal/choir voices. I don't generally play country music, but I used 2 country styles on my T4 and now I can easily use up to twenty T5 country styles. They sound so realistic, especially the guitar strumming and picking. Many of these style parts I can borrow into additional hybrid styles.

Audio style modifications in style creator can only be saved to the user drive. I estimate that perhaps up to 100 styles can be saved to the user drive. So I will dedicate the user drive for only the user audio style saves.

I like the mix of audio style parts and the flexibility of the midi style parts. I can create hybrid audio styles mixing up any style part in style creator, as long as you start with the original audio style you want to use the audio parts from. 100 spots on my user drive would be plenty for me.

Style programming, voice quality, and great DSP effects makes it almost unnecessary to have audio bass and guitar parts, but for drum kits and other audio nuances the audio parts are second to none. I am quite impressed with the Ketron Audio Styles, but I am pretty much dedicated to the Yamaha OS and files I created over the years.

I too am waiting for additional Yamaha Audio style packs, but I have plenty to work with for now on the T5. Yes, there probably are software programs you can use for more realism, but for one compact unit for the convenience of gigging and arranging your creations, I am very satisfied with the a Tyros 5.

Regards, Marcus
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#381273 - 01/12/14 01:52 PM Re: Yamaha Audio in Styles [Re: Dnj]
DannyUK Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 1130
Originally Posted By: Dnj
Originally Posted By: rosetree
Considering that audio styles are "the way they are" once they have been recorded, whereas for midi styles every single note of every instrument involved can be eliminated or recomposed - I think it is probably quite expensive for the manufacturer to be up-to-date regarding the newest pop music with audio styles. If some new dance or rhythm has been invented, all a manufacturer had to do up to now was reprogram the midi styles with the samples already existing, maybe add a certain drum sample. With audio styles, real musicians have to be hired again for a sampling session.


exactly right....you create, record, etc, your OWN or use commercial, factory Midi styles or SMF file songs and Edit Every Single part, note, fx, etc, till the cows come home to make it the way YOU want! ...not so with audio styles...


Fair points... however, are manufactures now forced to go Audio to follow each other? I've not owned a Korg since the PA1x and I've never owned a Roland thus far, aren't these guys audio yet? Maybe Yamaha will never go fully audio but the trend has been set, first 25 styles on the S950 and then 40 or so on the T5, and it does seem to be a variety and not just focused on one particular genre so this may mean it would eventually replace them all.

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#381283 - 01/12/14 05:59 PM Re: Yamaha Audio in Styles [Re: DannyUK]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14207
Loc: NW Florida
If Yamaha's audio styles WERE so obviously better (in many people's opinions, they aren't), they would make the MIDI drum styles sound so bad you wouldn't want to use them. This is apparently not the case. So, the question is, why introduce a new technology that has significant disadvantages over MIDI drum styles (you can't change the kit, you can't edit EQ, pitch, reverb or volume for each drum individually) if the advantages aren't THAT great?

This is basically an all or nothing approach. Ketron went all out, and doubled down on audio styles. And, for them, it has worked wonderfully. If you aren't much of a tweaker, and want the most live sounding drums out there (not to mention live guitars, bass, etc.), the Audya works great.

But Yamaha's timid, tepid approach to it just seems so half-hearted, it cuts the legs out of how strong it COULD be. If say 75% of the ROM styles were audio, if they mixed them to be only as ambient as the REST of the styles in the arranger, then we could say that this is where Yamaha are going. But reviews about the audio styles from owners seems mixed, at best. Not enough to be significant, too ambient to be integrated, virtually no extra and 3rd party audio styles, and no way to quickly load them into the arrangers.

That's a recipe for failure, IMO.

And the need for them is almost entirely removed by the simple and expedient solution of simply MUCH better recorded, multi-velocity drum KITS. Which has the HUGE benefit of being able to be used on ALL styles, especially legacy styles that mostly address the oldest, least dynamic kits even now.

I simply cannot fathom Yamaha's mindset here... 10% or less of the styles in a T5 are audio, there's no quick way to load a bunch more, IF a load more were even available. How is this in ANY way a significant feature? Even the audio multipads, the one way you would THINK would be an easy way to add your OWN audio drum loops (for once, Yamaha allow a common sample format rather than their own proprietary BS), they don't allow the loop to loop!

For the want of a nail (OK, a box of nails!), the crown has been lost. All this half-hearted approach has done is whet the appetite of those who actually LIKE the audio styles for an arranger that uses them for MOST of the styles..! Well done, Yamaha. You've done more for Ketron than you have for yourself.
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#381364 - 01/13/14 11:28 PM Re: Yamaha Audio in Styles [Re: Diki]
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6483
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Originally Posted By: Diki
If Yamaha's audio styles WERE so obviously better (in many people's opinions, they aren't), they would make the MIDI drum styles sound so bad you wouldn't want to use them.


That's such a "strange" thing to say. It makes absolutely no sense at all.

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#381367 - 01/14/14 02:47 AM Re: Yamaha Audio in Styles [Re: DannyUK]
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
Not really Nigel. I think what Dikki means is that playing audio styles should be so clearly better and therefore preferable than playing the internal Midi styles that you generally would not want to use the midi styles . In the same way that playing a keyboards proprietary internal sounds such as yamaha's super articulation sounds are generally preferable to playing for example most GM equivalent. I will probably regret saying this (smile ) but in many respects I agree with Dikkis arguments from a musicians viewpoint .I think that audio has limited value other than for short loops.

I think that midi styles with better samples is likely to be the most value to musicians that create and edit thier own the content and don't just rely upon the suggested content that came with the keyboard. To those folks that just wish to plug-in and play then audio tracks are great until they get bored. And for most arranger players that really fall into this category, its not an issue because when they get bored as an proven time and time again, rather then dig in to their instrument and learn all its features and become stimulated again, they simply buy the next edition of that keyboard with updated content.


Edited by spalding1968 (01/14/14 02:51 AM)

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#381417 - 01/14/14 06:07 PM Re: Yamaha Audio in Styles [Re: DannyUK]
Robbo Offline
Member

Registered: 07/31/08
Posts: 570
Loc: Ballarat, Victoria, Australia
Honestly, now owning a T5 and the great Audya. Yamaha has reworked all of the styles beautifully, and the sound whilst still lacking in Audio with limited capabilities is pretty darn good. I.m expecting Yamaha to further enhance this capability with further updates and new programmes to better the overall approach, as yes the scribes have pointed out re the shortcomings, and it makes no sense not to follow up with improvements as we go.

I do believe i think from a previous discussion re sound creator Yamaha, we are to shortly receive a new programme to do this. So it;s a wait and see, and i.m sure it will all be worth it in the end

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#381448 - 01/15/14 12:11 PM Re: Yamaha Audio in Styles [Re: DannyUK]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14207
Loc: NW Florida
Thanks spalding... someone understands me!

Basically, for anyone that edits AT ALL rather than just dials up the factory presets, you lose more by going to audio drum loops than you gain.

The gain is a SLIGHT improvement in sound (but I have been showing that, compared to better MIDI kits, that improvement is almost indistinguishable), but a COMPLETE loss of control. And the inability to use the sounds for other styles.

It's simply a bad trade, IMO.
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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