Yamaha Audio in Styles

Now that Yamaha has featured two models with Audio in their styles, how do you think it will progress from here? Initially, people thought that they were testing the waters by implementing the option in the S950 as a trial but it now seems clear that Yamaha are finding this feature quite favorable by implementing it in the T5 also.

I am really surprised that Yamaha have yet to sell any Audio premium styles, I suppose it might have something to do with them being protected / not transferable?

Do you think Yamaha will now go all the way in any subsequent upgrades? The next "S" series will surely have a few more but I would prefer if Yamaha would just go all the way and have every single style in Audio format with the option to switch to midi drums within the same style so that they are editable that is if Audio will remain protected.

I think had the T5 had all their styles as Audio I would have purchased one.

I have also noticed that some posters have thought that Yamaha's Audio styles are not true audio as they don't feature other audio tracks such as bass / guitars etc.. Do you think that's next? Or do you think Yamaha would be just keen to increase the number of Audio styles with drums? The T5 is appealing but just doesn't have enough of this at the moment, 40 styles just isn't enough.

Danny, I think they're gradually introduce them, plus introduce software to edit them as well, with upcoming models. Kinda test the waters so to speak.

Gary

OK, so it's going to be a bit at a time? Do you think like 20 new styles at a time? So then Yamaha will have a fully audio model in 50 years time? They should just go for it! My opinion of course.

If you can't single out EACH TRACK desperately for editing ..no software will work to edit these so called audio styles.If Yamaha ever outweighs midi styles for all audio in future models,.....
I will surly switch back to another brand. And someone please me this:......Why do we even need Audio styles vs Midi styles? just sayin'

I see what you're saying, but for "some" types of music, especially Electronica, the drums need to be Audio I think. Midi can only take it so far within that genre. But I also suspect that the majority of users here probably don't care for that type of music anyway so I can understand.

I would think for Electronica/ T3cho etc..you would definitely want to use a separate software drum program for industry standards....etc..

Well that's true, but the thing is for me, I was talking about ambient music, I don't really enjoy Club / Techno / House / Dance music as I used to when I was younger so that doesn't bother me. I think I would have already gone the route you suggested if I was seriously into that stuff.

I think if Yamaha are going ahead with the audio route they should do it properly and not in dribs and drabs.

Yamaha styles are very well programmed.
If you ask me, they should make those audio styles more universal..They are good but most of them too specific for some songs.It's a waste of space.
What i wish that Yamaha would do is give some new epansions for new drum kits..And they need to be much better.Yamaha should step up with drum sounds the way they do with other sounds on keyboard.My las Yamaha was 9000pro and I can't believe the drum sounds have not change since then.And when was 9000 pro made.

If they make new drums they could surpass Aydia styles easily.

With their new sound creator coming up they should make a good drum mixer for easier editing of styles.Sometimes we just need to tone downs high hats,or snare,or add some plate reverb on snare for a ballad style.Sometimes there is no need to edit whole drum kit.Just an element in a style..

We really don't need audio drums.

Be careful what you wish for....The more they go ahead the total audio route pretty soon there will be no need for an arranger as DJ style/Arranger KB gets closer and closer, & farther way from traditional human music creation it wont be long...both are just a way to "CONTROL" & Manipulate Audio sound.

I guess I'll just stick with what I have now for another 10 years, if I live that long. Sure makes me happy.

Gary

Considering that audio styles are "the way they are" once they have been recorded, whereas for midi styles every single note of every instrument involved can be eliminated or recomposed - I think it is probably quite expensive for the manufacturer to be up-to-date regarding the newest pop music with audio styles. If some new dance or rhythm has been invented, all a manufacturer had to do up to now was reprogram the midi styles with the samples already existing, maybe add a certain drum sample. With audio styles, real musicians have to be hired again for a sampling session.

exactly right....you create, record, etc, your OWN or use commercial, factory Midi styles or SMF file songs and Edit Every Single part, note, fx, etc, till the cows come home to make it the way YOU want! ...not so with audio styles...

Even though I love the realism of the audio in my Audya,therE are many times I want a more laid back sound of my 910 or KN7000. In addition, I prefer to work with midi for my sequences, except for MP3 on vocal back up. Of coarse, I am an old guy that doesn't want everything to change on me.

Having played my Tyros 5 since last month, I am really impressed with the styles in general plus the 50 audio styles. Owning a T4 for backup, most of the same T5 styles by name were reworked with improved voices and some intro/ending patterns updated.

Mostly impressed by me besides the audio parts was the Country style category. There are only 2 audio country styles, but with the new guitar voices and DSP effects the other styles are unbelievable, not mentioning the incorporated human vocal/choir voices. I don't generally play country music, but I used 2 country styles on my T4 and now I can easily use up to twenty T5 country styles. They sound so realistic, especially the guitar strumming and picking. Many of these style parts I can borrow into additional hybrid styles.

Audio style modifications in style creator can only be saved to the user drive. I estimate that perhaps up to 100 styles can be saved to the user drive. So I will dedicate the user drive for only the user audio style saves.

I like the mix of audio style parts and the flexibility of the midi style parts. I can create hybrid audio styles mixing up any style part in style creator, as long as you start with the original audio style you want to use the audio parts from. 100 spots on my user drive would be plenty for me.

Style programming, voice quality, and great DSP effects makes it almost unnecessary to have audio bass and guitar parts, but for drum kits and other audio nuances the audio parts are second to none. I am quite impressed with the Ketron Audio Styles, but I am pretty much dedicated to the Yamaha OS and files I created over the years.

I too am waiting for additional Yamaha Audio style packs, but I have plenty to work with for now on the T5. Yes, there probably are software programs you can use for more realism, but for one compact unit for the convenience of gigging and arranging your creations, I am very satisfied with the a Tyros 5.

Regards, Marcus

Fair points... however, are manufactures now forced to go Audio to follow each other? I've not owned a Korg since the PA1x and I've never owned a Roland thus far, aren't these guys audio yet? Maybe Yamaha will never go fully audio but the trend has been set, first 25 styles on the S950 and then 40 or so on the T5, and it does seem to be a variety and not just focused on one particular genre so this may mean it would eventually replace them all.

If Yamaha's audio styles WERE so obviously better (in many people's opinions, they aren't), they would make the MIDI drum styles sound so bad you wouldn't want to use them. This is apparently not the case. So, the question is, why introduce a new technology that has significant disadvantages over MIDI drum styles (you can't change the kit, you can't edit EQ, pitch, reverb or volume for each drum individually) if the advantages aren't THAT great?

This is basically an all or nothing approach. Ketron went all out, and doubled down on audio styles. And, for them, it has worked wonderfully. If you aren't much of a tweaker, and want the most live sounding drums out there (not to mention live guitars, bass, etc.), the Audya works great.

But Yamaha's timid, tepid approach to it just seems so half-hearted, it cuts the legs out of how strong it COULD be. If say 75% of the ROM styles were audio, if they mixed them to be only as ambient as the REST of the styles in the arranger, then we could say that this is where Yamaha are going. But reviews about the audio styles from owners seems mixed, at best. Not enough to be significant, too ambient to be integrated, virtually no extra and 3rd party audio styles, and no way to quickly load them into the arrangers.

That's a recipe for failure, IMO.

And the need for them is almost entirely removed by the simple and expedient solution of simply MUCH better recorded, multi-velocity drum KITS. Which has the HUGE benefit of being able to be used on ALL styles, especially legacy styles that mostly address the oldest, least dynamic kits even now.

I simply cannot fathom Yamaha's mindset here... 10% or less of the styles in a T5 are audio, there's no quick way to load a bunch more, IF a load more were even available. How is this in ANY way a significant feature? Even the audio multipads, the one way you would THINK would be an easy way to add your OWN audio drum loops (for once, Yamaha allow a common sample format rather than their own proprietary BS), they don't allow the loop to loop!

For the want of a nail (OK, a box of nails!), the crown has been lost. All this half-hearted approach has done is whet the appetite of those who actually LIKE the audio styles for an arranger that uses them for MOST of the styles..! Well done, Yamaha. You've done more for Ketron than you have for yourself.

That's such a "strange" thing to say. It makes absolutely no sense at all.

Not really Nigel. I think what Dikki means is that playing audio styles should be so clearly better and therefore preferable than playing the internal Midi styles that you generally would not want to use the midi styles . In the same way that playing a keyboards proprietary internal sounds such as yamaha's super articulation sounds are generally preferable to playing for example most GM equivalent. I will probably regret saying this (smile ) but in many respects I agree with Dikkis arguments from a musicians viewpoint .I think that audio has limited value other than for short loops.

I think that midi styles with better samples is likely to be the most value to musicians that create and edit thier own the content and don't just rely upon the suggested content that came with the keyboard. To those folks that just wish to plug-in and play then audio tracks are great until they get bored. And for most arranger players that really fall into this category, its not an issue because when they get bored as an proven time and time again, rather then dig in to their instrument and learn all its features and become stimulated again, they simply buy the next edition of that keyboard with updated content.

Honestly, now owning a T5 and the great Audya. Yamaha has reworked all of the styles beautifully, and the sound whilst still lacking in Audio with limited capabilities is pretty darn good. I.m expecting Yamaha to further enhance this capability with further updates and new programmes to better the overall approach, as yes the scribes have pointed out re the shortcomings, and it makes no sense not to follow up with improvements as we go.

I do believe i think from a previous discussion re sound creator Yamaha, we are to shortly receive a new programme to do this. So it;s a wait and see, and i.m sure it will all be worth it in the end

Thanks spalding... someone understands me!

Basically, for anyone that edits AT ALL rather than just dials up the factory presets, you lose more by going to audio drum loops than you gain.

The gain is a SLIGHT improvement in sound (but I have been showing that, compared to better MIDI kits, that improvement is almost indistinguishable), but a COMPLETE loss of control. And the inability to use the sounds for other styles.

It's simply a bad trade, IMO.

But suggesting that any manufacturer "would make the MIDI drum styles sound so bad you wouldn't want to use them" would NEVER happen. So why even bother saying it.

Personally I like MIDI drum tracks and I do agree that they are more flexible to use than audio styles. But audio styles just offer some alternate choices that's all.

"Thanks spalding... someone understands me!"

I probably would not stretch it that far mate ha ha !

But you are right . The difference between real audio and great samples of drum grooves played through midi drums is very marginal . I remember this point being made in discussions about the audya . The arguments are just as valid today .

I like MIDI drum tracks too, but after playing a client's Tyros5-76 last evening, I must say the audio drum based styles were very impressive...the client, who is a pro for many years, really liked them as well and it was one of the first things he mentioned...the T5 is replacing his Tyros3, and he still has and uses a 9000Pro (he likes having 76 keys).

I think the most important words in your post are "alternate choices" with emphasis on "choices".

At one time, using up 40 spaces for differently made styles in an arranger's on-board factory banks would/could be kind of wasteful especially if many of those styles didn't appeal to you, or had very limited editing compared to those with MIDI drum tracks.

With today's arrangers sporting virtually unlimited storage for styles, it's not actually relevant anymore.

I went to the clinic with some reservations on the audio drum based styles, considering some of the criticism leveled at them here on SZ, but, I must say, they were quite effective, especially those in the Latin and Swing/Jazz categories.

If I needed a 76 note arranger, I'd sell or trade up my Tyros4 for a Tyros5-76 in a heartbeat, but I'm perfectly happy with 61 for arranger duties, so I'll stick with what I have, as most of the new features wouldn't be useful for my needs.

But again, the operative word is "choice", and, it's nice to see a company at least adventuring into new territory and taking the risks involved.

Ian

Hardly new territory, my Canadian Amigo. They are just a shadow of what Ketron does with them! However, I did use and enjoy several on the S950. They did not seem out of place in regard to the midi styles.

Were the audio styles on the S-950 the Guinea Pig?
Are the T5 audio styles same ones different & better sounding in some way? or?

Yes, you are right, Don, but I was thinking it was something new for Yamaha to try...they usually are a conservative company and I was quite surprised to see and hear the new audio drum based styles, both on the S950 and now the Tyros5.

My buddy with the Tyros5-76 really likes them, and, he felt they were well integrated within the regular MIDI based drum styles, which he also thoroughly enjoys.

He simply says, the audio styles have their more specific uses, just like any other unique styles on an arranger, like the FreePlay styles, another cool new idea recently added by Yamaha.

Going from playing an audio drum based style to a MIDI drum based style was different, but in a musical and well coordinated way. The audio styles aren't perfect, but that also seems to add to their authenticity.

Again, it's a choice for the player to make...he/she is not forced into using them if they don't appeal for some reason, although, I find it hard to see why...I really thought they were very well done.

Ian

They must be the same type as on the S950, Donny, but there are more of them.

I almost didn't expect to like them due to all the criticism, but like them I did.

My client is Glenn Campbell's former piano player (early years) and is a superb musician...the audio styles were one of the first things he mentioned, but, he also said the other styles were also excellent as well.

His only real disappointment was with most of the SA Acoustic Pianos, and he and I both agree on that point. We both found them thin in the mid-range, and like me on my Tyros4, he uses Live!Grand Piano as his "go to" instrument.

I also thought the size and shape of the Tyros5-76 made it very impressive and professional looking, although it may be a bit of an issue with those using small cars.

Ian

I guess my degree of deafness must be much greater than even I anticipated. I cannot hear the things that DNJ says he hears, I enjoy using the audio styles, especially the swing and Latin styles, and I guess my audiences must be a deaf as me, cause they don't seem to hear anything but nice music from those audio styles. And, a lot of the styles we use on a daily basis, have either subtle or no drums at all - just a great bass line. I guess I just don't get it, but maybe that's a good thing.

Cheers,

Gary

Gary there is no way around it the Drums are disconnected from the style and sound like they were recorded in another room down the block......I wish I could delete them to make room in my Ram...

As we can see, opinions will vary.

Some people love the SA Pianos, which don't appeal to me at all.

Regarding the audio drum based styles, I found the drums very well integrated, as did my friend Johnny.

Thankfully, if you don't like how they sound, you don't need to use them. There are lots of factory styles I don't use on an arranger, mostly in the Schlager category, but that's how they are sold.

The only time the Audio drum based styles need to be put in RAM and take up space is if you do edits to them (they have to be stored there).

Certainly style storage is no longer an issue with the advent of USB Drives? It sure is no longer a problem for me.

Ian

I was comparing some sounds on the T4 and I compared both the SA Concert Grand against the archaic basic XG Piano within the XG/GM category and they sounded identical which really surprised (and annoyed) me a little.

Just to make sure that I wasn't going mad, I did the same thing on the S950 comparing the Concert Grand Live! against the XG Piano and the results were the same.

Yep, all the hootin' about the new SA Pianos, and, in my opinion, they are all pretty poor...good bottoms and top ends, but the middles were lifeless.

They fared no better on the Clavinova CVP-509/609 with the "Natural Pianos"...same problems as SA.

Fortunately, Live!Grand Piano comes to the rescue and is an excellent piano voice, and sounds great in all ranges...it's also available on the CVP.

When I want it a bit mellower, I just go to the filter settings and take the Brightness down to -12. Sounds really nice for jazz ballads.

I don't think any arranger is perfect, and I think it's down sometimes to being able to live with the flaws of one particular brand easier than with another.

Having said that, I'm still on the honeymoon stage with my Tyros4...the Tyros5 I played the other night was nice...but so is the Tyros4. I wasn't tempted to upgrade, and, quite frankly, Danny, I don't think I'd find much use for most of the T5's new features, like Organ World and Ensemble to mention only two.

Ian

The trouble, Ian, is that you CAN'T have 'virtually unlimited' audio styles on the Tyros or S950. In fact, you can't load in many at all, even if there were many to load in! You can't do it on the fly (you have to reboot the keyboard to load them), and there's precious little choice even if you could.

As usual, Yamaha have decided to soak their users, keep the audio style format completely proprietary and closed off, offer NO software so you can convert loops you DO have into this format, and sell very few audio styles at inflated prices to their users. Like it or lump it.

Even the ONE feature that would allow you to do a sort of workaround, and put your own .wav loops onto the multipads, left off the ONE thing that would make this work... a loop parameter!

This is such a slap in the face of their customers...

'Here's a GREAT new feature... but we'll only use it on 10% of the styles, won't provide an easy way to load more in, and won't make many new ones for you to buy. Oh, and we'll cripple your only workaround!'

Jeez, thanks, Yamaha!

Thanks, Diki...that was very helpful...please go on.

Ian

Truth hurts, don't it? LOL

Hi Ian,

I was looking forward to your impressions of the T5 so thanks for your comments. I'm the same as you regarding the T4 although I've not had it anywhere near as long as you, I am more than pleased with it and have absolutely no reason to upgrade, I have pretty much everything I want already in the T4. I am sure the T5 is an excellent keyboard but Yamaha haven't added or improved upon the the area's I was looking forward to the most. If anything, it's the S950 that actually has one ore two new ambient styles over even the T5! Very odd.

Yep, I think we've got a very nice package in the Tyros4. The Tyros5's Audio Drum based styles are very nice indeed, but, I'm already very content with the MIDI drum kits in the T4. I've been having a great time sprucing up styles and getting set up to do some recording these past few weeks, especially when the snow had most of us staying indoors.

My friend would have got a Tyros4 if they had been available with 76 keys, as he already has a 9000Pro(76-notes) and found it difficult going between it and the Tyros3 that he traded in for the Tyros5-76. He thought the T5's audio drum based styles were a nice addition to what it already had in MIDI styles. The Swing/Jazz and Latin are terrific.

I should add that the Tyros5-76 is a dream come true for those wanting the longer keybed...same ultra high quality FSX action with aftertouch (thank you Yamaha) and the instrument is heavy enough not to feel skittish and bouncy on a stand like one of those lightweight 20 lb 76'ers.

Plus, the Tyros5-76 really looks the business, it's size giving it a very professional look, yet it is not at all awkward to carry. My buddy simply loves the instrument.

I can't see me getting anything new for quite some time, and that's a good sign that what I have now is doing the job.

Ian

I disagree Donny ... you may not like them, but I got great response from them. The deal is this: They sound very different from the existing styles and it takes some getting used to. You don't like them .... fine. I actually think they are the part I miss most about the 950. They are simple and effective. I shut the guitar part off in the swing style and I could play all night on that feel. Plenty of room for me to put in the kinds of changes that make me happy. I love the ride cym.
You're being pretty hard on them .... sorry you're so unhappy, but for prospective buyers = I'd just like to toss a positive comment in before they make a decision.

The thing I notice most about them is, the drums seem to come from one room, everything else is playing in another.

That's just not how it works, live... Mind you, there's many a singer that wishes that WAS the case, LOL

Gee, I don't feel like Yamaha slapped me in the face - I feel like they gave a bonus with the audio styles. Of course, I'm a bit easier to please than some.

Gary

The swing/jazz audio drum styles, CoolJazzClub, and UpTempoSwing are killers. I had to drag my buddy away from the T5 to get some work done...he was totally freaking out on them...he was mainly a country player, but is also a very capable jazz player as well, and it was a real hoot hearing him wail away. You are so right about that ride cymbal.

Other related Tyros5 audio drum style standouts for me were the AcousticBlues and BluesShuffle which are, again, different than the MIDI drum styles, but not that different that they made the midi drum styles any less authoritative.

Ian

Ian ... can you or anyone else post a demo of those styles?
I would just like to compare them with some of the Pa900 styles ...
although Dave has probably done that already ...
thank you

Hi Tony...I won't be seeing my friend Johnny again for over a month...he and his wife are soon off for a few weeks in Las Vegas to celebrate their 50th wedding anniversary, and then going out west to visit one of their daughters.

Maybe someone else here with a Tyros5 could treat us to a demo?

Ian

I wish I recorded something with the Yamaha styles before I pushed it off on poor Donny.

They really sounded good to me, but I just hated the feel of playing the thing. I'm so much more at ease with my PA900 now. If Tyros ever made a smaller, AUDIBLE keyboard ... I'd give it a serious listen. I did have the original T1 years ago .... but needed the speakers. (duh)

Dave ... how did they compare to some of the jazz styles on the 900?

Tony, Here's one I posted a few months ago when I first got the S-950. Bring Me Sunshine

I recorded it on the Zoom H2 because you cannot record the audio files directly on the keyboard's onboard audio recorder.

Gary

Sounds good Gar ... what style was that ...

Gary I love ya this is a perfect example of why I dislike these audio styles thanx for posting this...if anyone thinks this audio style drum kit sounds good I don't know what to say to you as I said all I want regarding the disconnection of the audio drums ratio to the style especially at around 1:22 when the next variation kicks in they sound so thin also......

Diki.......you nailed it in a nut shell BIG TIME!!
I have to agree 150% what is it everyone else doesn't hear? I dont think players with other brands miss audio styles..

Oh baby push away ......I love the S-950 "FOR NOW" and in two weeks I will break my own personal record by keeping it for
1 year ..........yes it has features that must be "Worked around on stage" But that is with all units of any brand....but all in all I can deal with it. Who knows what the next S series will be ...I hear rumors it will happen at NAMM next week ....The S-960 is a light weight feature packed gigging machine. I haven't played the BK9 but aside from that nothing else excites me at this time.

The Korg PA3x has the ideal solution to the issue, IMO.

It's best drum KITS have ambiance sampled into the sound, BUT there's a control for how much... So you can go all the way from that 70's bone dry sound to the 40's and 50's 'everybody in the one room' type sound (listen to any Spector, too!). Roland's drums all have a BIT of ambiance sampled in, but you can't increase or decrease it. Admittedly, to my ears they get it right, but Korg allows you to increase or decrease it when it isn't quite right.

Those Yamaha loops sound so drenched, sort of 'look what WE did!' shoving it in your face, but the truth is, outside of a recording, where you could put a big room around all the OTHER Parts, for most live players, it's too much. Either the arranger needs a MUCH better room reverb processor, something that could put the same ambiance round the MIDI Parts that is sampled into the loops, or the loops need taming to where they match the ambiance the arranger IS capable of matching...

The latter is the easier, less expensive solution.

The style I used was one of the swing styles.

Gary

... thank you ...

Here is one new drum kit for T5.It is an old Bosnian song so I had to play it traditionally.I just want to show you drums.It is not audio drums.It is Dynamix Vulgar Drums.I just changed dum kit with some swing style.No editing at all.Of course there were mistakes.First take..


https://soundcloud.com/mirza-mesanovic/hanuma-impro-1

Sounds good to me.

Gary

Tony, the 900 swing styles are a tad busy for my taste, but I thinned them out, or got used to them. I forget the name of my "go-to" jazz beat, but it's fine ... not as smooth as I'd like. I need a simple, elegant background so I can do whatever I want with the chords in my right hand. Unlike many players ... I primarily create the bulk of the arrangement with my right hand, and play very few melodies. (My voice does that) The interaction of the bass and the chords creates the groove factor for me, so I want the drums to just be a timekeeper. Again ... like RIngo.

And to answer a question a ways back ... not sure if Ringo can swing, but I'd like to hear him try because he has a reputation of playing exactly what's needed. In my heart, I think he can do it. Listen to some of the things he played ... not your typical beat-maker at all. Try to play "in my life" note for note as he does ... it's very complex, but you don't realize it because it's woven so perfectly within the arrangement.
I like a simple ride cymbal, steady back-beat on the hats, almost no bass drum and minimal accents on the snare. I can play almost any tune with that kind of backing and make it fresh each time, with the elements that I add.

... less is more, as is often the case ...

Dave, I am SO sure I played a 'Jazz Brush' style on the 900 that had the 4 bar drum solos (with brushes) in variation 4 like the BeBop style ... is this jazz brush style on the 900 or was I just dreaming it ?!? ...

One of the things I really liked about the S950's audio swing style was that is was very clean, polished, uncluttered and like Dave, I rely on my vocals for my melodies. If I lost my singing ability tomorrow morning, tomorrow evening all my gear would be on Ebay.

Gary

FOUND IT !!! ... it is the "Acoustic Jazz" style !!! ... I know I'm the only one who cares, but that's all right, at least I know I wasn't dreaming it ...

It was one of my favorite styles.

WAS?!? ... did I miss something? .. did you get rid of the KORG?

No, that was a Yamaha style.

OK ... the Acoustic Jazz style I am referring to is on the Pa900 ...

Maybe the previous owner converted the Yamaha Acoustic jazz style to Korg..BTW: this Yamaha style is one of the total of 3 that I use from Yamaha..

My favorite Korg style is the Jazz brush style (edited for Roland)..

I like the Korg styles, and they convert nicely to Roland..Also I like to rework the converted styles and they do fine after changing different instruments..

Here is a quick demo of that Korg Jazz Brush style, I modified it including a change of the brush kit for a tight room kit..It works for me...What do you guys think?..

BTW: none of the sounds, styles are from the G70