I was sitting in the office with the PSR-S950 this evening, just tinkering around with some of the new styles and trying to put songs to them. I've come to the stark reality that the keyboard can do more things than even I can imagine, and I thought I was pretty damned good with these things. Today's TOTL and MOTL arranger keyboards have so many features, voices, styles, built-in programs, etc...that it would take someone years to explore and utilize every aspect of the keyboard. What amazing machines we have, and at a very affordable price.

One of the things that really amazed me was the new vocal processors. They're absolutely fantastic. Today, while performing at a local retirement community, I paid careful attention to my vocals. I had a bit of a sore throat from performing 22 jobs in 18 days, and I sing every song. I thought my voice might end up sounding a bit rough, but this was not the case. Several people came up to me and said my vocal was outstanding, better than ever. I sincerely believe the PSR-s950's onboard vocal processor has a lot to do with this.

The depressing thing is that this keyboard wasn't available two decades ago. If it were, the way this technology has advanced, there's no telling what would be available today. Every time I press one of the voice demo buttons I'm blown away by what I hear. I wish I had the playing ability of Chas, Captain Russ, Don Mason, Diki, and most other folks on this forum. If that were the case, I think I would be in keyboard heaven.

Cheers,

Gary

I remember seeing a video from Craig Knudsen for Yamaha that had total pitch correction software for their keyboards. He sung the national anthem totally off key and flat- the processor made him sound like a professional arena singer..amazing. I don't think that made it into their keyboards after the beta test though.
In fact, here it is! Come to think of it, I might have seen it here.

Pitch Correction-Krazy Kooky Korrection Karaoke

Considering that it wasn't all that long ago I had to carry between 4 and 7 keyboards to do duty in the four and five piece bands I played in.

Now, with only ONE arranger keyboard, and, if I so choose, I don't even need the band.

Someone started a thread on what one of our old keyboards we would want back...hell, when I have an instrument that fills the role of every keyboard in my past, does it admirably well, with remarkable reliability, portability, great key feel, and in magnificent stereo sound, why would I want to go backwards?

Ian

If you had a house gig with a real B3, a real piano, a Rhodes, a Clavinet, etc., would anyone honestly STILL prefer to play their arranger?

Arrangers and modern keyboards certainly are convenient, but, IMO, they still have a VERY long way to go to sound as good as the originals.

That's the rub, Diki..."house gig"...if we all had that luxury we probably could still use those old monsters.

Unfortunately, bands break up, we get older, and less enthusiastic about moving heavy gear, house gigs are literally unknown in my area, so it's the arranger that takes over, and admirably so, at least in my case.

I get to play a Rhodes 73 and a lovely B-3 with a Leslie, usually twice a month at a jam session, and, whilst it's a treat, I certainly don't feel I've taken a step down when I come home and play my Tyros4. It's emulations of those classic instrument are extremely well done, plus it has features that were only a gleam in the developer's eye back when those old dinosaurs ruled the stage.

I only have one keyboard from my past (sold the Jupiter 8), which is a little Yamaha CS-01, a minuscule monster of an analog mono-synth (with breath controller) and I've mainly kept that because it's takes up very little room here in my apartment and it sounds terrific played through my T4's line in.

I honestly do not miss my old gear...I sold it, or part exchanged it, for good, valid reasons, and they would still apply very much today.

Ian

I play enough old instruments in studios and at friend's places to perhaps remember what was so good about them.

Yes, OF COURSE lugging a B3 around is not an option for most of us (me included), but that doesn't change what makes the old stuff so good! If you honestly think your Tyros's B3 is anything more than a pale shadow of the real thing, perhaps your hearing has gone with your lifting strength?! LOL

Nope, hearing is actually better, since I was wise enough, over the years, to use ear protection. I hope you did the same. LOL. I wrote this bit a tad louder just in case.<grin>

Lifting strength has never been the issue...I'm lazy, and I just like lighter, more manageable gear, that has the sounds that appeal to me...it's just a more intelligent (and convenient) way of operating my business.

No one is saying that the old stuff didn't have redeeming qualities...the sounds it made defined the way a lot of music has been written and played. That's why digital pianos, samplers, emulators, VST's and clonewheels have such great appeal and sell so well. They reproduce the sound, but in lighter, more convenient and sometimes more affordable, packages.

My old gear served it's purpose, and it was time to move on...as I said earlier, I sold/replaced my old gear for perfectly valid reasons, and have no dreams of buying any of it again.

Ian

If only they reproduced the sound more accurately! Convenience is one thing, sonic accuracy is yet another!

Don't get me wrong... you know full well I use the convenience of arrangers. In fact, I am happy as a sandboy that Roland came out with a new arranger with most of the best features from the G70, added back my beloved Chord Sequencer, and made it a 76 with a great feeling keybed and still kept the weight under 21 lbs.

But compare it to a real B3, or a Rhodes? Never. I think the BK-9's B3 sim is the best I have ever heard, comparable to the best clonewheels out there. But not comparable to a REAL B3! The Rhodes sounds are as good as I have heard from a synth... but not from a Rhodes!

I prefer convenience too... but I won't elevate them to being the equal of the originals!

I still use a B-3, 2 147RV's, a suitcase Rhodes and a DX-7 on a house gig at a country club affiliated with the University. I've been a member since the mid-70's and have worked many, many jobs there over the years. These old dinosaurs have been stored there since I left my house gig at the Campbell house in 1983.

Maintenance is awful (read EXPENSIVE), I pay some of the help (an old country preacher M-1 player who works as a waiter) to move between rooms. At peak season, I sometimes have three holiday gigs on a Saturday, before my evening job.

My other jobs involve much smaller and lighter gear, but, man, about 4 nights a month, it's time to play "The Cat"!
Jazz night draws approximately 400 members and the few "jazzers" who can really play often join me...one time, it's a tenor/flute..another, a great guitarist, etc.

What FUN!


Russ(lucky old SOB) Lay

Thanks, Gary, but the ability to entertain is a natural skill that some of us (especially ME) just don't have. Vocally, I do a lot of commercial work, but am not built to sing a lot on stage.

Modesty is a fine trait, but not necessary, in your case!

R.

The Tyros4's organs are very well done. A friend has a Hammond XK3c, and I can play a note on my T4 and the same note on the XK and they are pretty much identical for all settings. That's close enough for my needs.
Electric pianos, including a great Wurly, are excellent, plus I have all the other sounds not on B-3 or Rhodes, plus a whole brace of effects and layering possibilities. And we haven't even touched on programmable auto-accompaniment, sequencing and audio recording.

For the tiny gain of accuracy in some instances, it's just not worth the hassle of the average musician lugging around and maintaining old gear with all it's disadvantages.

Comparing those old instruments to a new keyboard is like comparing an old Cadillac Sedan to a new one...they are both great cars...just from different eras and for different users.

But, I could still carry my Tyros4 in either Cadillac...not so a Hammond B-3.

Thankfully the days of hauling that old gear and having to have a van to move it are way behind us.

I don't miss those days one bit.

Ian

I kind of DO miss those days!

R.

Not me Russ. I miss certain parts of those days, but lugging heavy gear and needing to have a van are two things I can do without.

I do miss the comradeship and interaction in the band days, and I still continue that experience in jam sessions with some fine musicians, but I don't miss the rest of it.

Ian

Can I make a suggestion for you oldies.
Get a strong young lady who can sing. She''l feel safe with you and will work for the love of it. (peanuts) Make sure she can sing and wears sexy clothing. That way, the audience will ignore your faults and just focus on her. At the end of gig, she'll pack up all your gear, drive you home and put you in your favourite chair.
baz

That's a novel idea, baz.

It sounds suspiciously like you are speaking from experience.

Ian

Nah. There's a spanner in the works. It's called "WIFE"
baz

LOL. I used to have one of them too, baz...also required a lot of maintenance.

Ian

I simply know I play better when playing the real thing. How about you?

I know, when playing the B3's waterfall keys, or the slightly stiff Rhodes action, or the quick, short throw Clavinet keys, that the way the keys feel, how they work, affects what I play. All keybeds are NOT created equal! Each of them shapes what you play, to an extent.

You CAN play the exact same thing on the exact same keyboard for each sound, but the the keybed itself doesn't help shape things. That has to come solely from you...

I know that theoretically I SHOULD be able to play exactly the same on my arranger or a Rhodes, but in real life, it simply doesn't work out that way. Making music is a two way street. You play the instrument, but to a small extent, the instrument plays YOU, too!

I suppose you are right Diki...of course playing the original instrument's keys and controls would influence how we play.

I still wouldn't go through the fuss and bother to have and maintain old gear...it simply isn't worth it to me. I like having the one keyboard and the one type action, and the Tyros4's sound set and semi-weighted FSX are ideal for my needs. I was even thinking of getting a weighted action synth and controller (Casio PX-5S), but, I've changed my mind, at least for now. The long term project I'm embarking on, only requires having the T4. Mine has the added memory upgrade, which has proved very handy.

We are all different in what we want (and need)...that's what makes life (and SZ) interesting.

The old gear will always have a special place in my memory, just like many other things back then, but realistically, an arranger keyboard, especially one as powerful as the Tyros4, makes far more sense (and is far more useful) to my present way of making music.

The monthly romp on the B-3 and Rhodes at the jam session is plenty enough to satisfy my jones for vintage gear. In fact, there is even an old mid-70's Mellotron (now in restoration) that will eventually be added to the jam gear, and as you know, it requires a special approach to playing...now, that'll be a hoot!

Ian

PS...Do you still have your two G-70's or has one been made redundant due to getting the BK-9? Are you using a separate amp/speaker, or going through the PA?

Ian, we're on the same page, BUT, from a nostalgic standpoint, I miss the B-3 and Rhodes.

But then, I was never the most practical guy in the world.

There is a group here in town that plays big buck weddings, etc. Danny, the keyboard player and leader drags a B-3 and two 145's to each gig, along with, usually, a dx-7 and a 3rd keyboard.

It's what they're known for. He's sort of a Felix/Young Rascals dude, and fronts the group, including playing left hand bass.

Now, even to me, that's a little extreme.


Be well,


Russ

As I recall you had to TUNE those old electric pianos mechanically, and it was a chore. I don't miss the old stuff. The Rhodes and Wurlitzer sounds were compromises from the start. They sounded like that because they couldn't achieve a real piano sound without a real piano!
We got used to hearing them, that's all.
At one time I could barely get all my gear, as a single, into a full-sized Chevy van. Now it all fits on a Rock'n Roller dolly.

Despite what many people think, even cars are built better now. If you service them, they will last several hundred thousand miles. My 57 Chevy got 7 miles per gallon, and was constantly needing repairs. My 97 Silverado has 211,00 miles and is going strong with only normal maintenance.
My recently acquired Ford Expedition got 23 on its initial voyage from Dallas to Shreveport. My "old" Scion XB gets 34 and has never needed anything except tires for it's 82,000 miles so far.
Point is we remember fondly our old stuff, but that doesn't mean it was better, or as good, as what we have now.
I had a really good electric typewriter, but I don't want it back!
I don't miss the old stuff at all.
BTW, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here. I fully understand the "feel" and sound of a B3 and leslie. Nothing like it. I just don't want one anymore.
DonM

I'd be in "Hog's Heaven" if I could get my hands around the throat of the piece of crap that stole my "Selmer Mark IV." I bought it brand new for $695. Today on eBay depending on the condition, they go for well over $10,000. Nothing sounds nor responds like a Selmer Mark IV Tenor Sax!

I get your point, Russ...we have an act here (actually on the mainland Nova Scotia) where they always bring a B-3 and Leslie 122...they have the wooden strap on dollies for the organ and the Leslie is a bit modified for the road (that means it has handles installed...hee hee) and they also carry a Rhodes 88 and a Mini-Moog. They are, as you say, "what they are known for" and I doubt if they'll ever change.

Don, when I had the Hammond and the other beasties, I used to use a restored 1957 GMC Suburban truck with V-8 and Hydramatic to haul my gear, and I was lucky to get 10-12 mpg, even on the highway. It sure LOOKED and sounded cool, though! I finally decided to sell it to a collector, and at the same time, I downsized my keyboard rig to a Yamaha SK-20 organ/synth, Roland RD-300 and a pair of hotrodded Fender Twin Reverb (with tweeters and crossover added). The stuff was still heavy, but it would fit in the back of my 1987 Toyota Tercel 4-wheel drive station wagon, with careful packing. Man, what a huge difference in running costs.

Now, all my present gear fits in my '02 Honda Accord SE sedan and still leaves an empty passenger seat in front. It's my 5th Honda Accord (first was a 1988), and they have all been very reliable and very low maintenance. Same goes for my gear...it's always been mainly Yamaha (and sometimes Roland) and very reliable.

Sure the old stuff was awesome and a real joy to play, but, as you say Don, it needed regular maintenance; tuning the Wurly was a nightmare that involved adding and filing away solder from the metal tone reeds which could only be done with the instrument unplugged. It all became harder to move, and luckily, new technology allowed me to downsize, and I haven't looked back.

Now, a Tyros4 and two lightweight powered speakers does what a whole stage full of gear used to do.

The old stuff was pretty cool, but, I sure don't want it back again.

Ian

Just turn up for that jam with the Tyros, see what musicians without any vested interest in what YOU play say about it! Don't play the originals, play the arranger (just the sounds)...

To someone not worried about how hard they are to maintain, how heavy they are, or how unreliable, the only thing they'll care about is how you sound on it. Want to bet that they think you sound better playing the organ on a B3 clone? LOL

Me, I try my hardest to still judge gear on the merits of its sound ALONE... After all, that IS its function. The rest is merely convenience, which the audience (either FOH or other musicians) really don't give a rats about!

Now, whether I USE the vintage stuff or not, yes, that's entirely due to convenience. But that doesn't change its sound... If someone else maintained and moved my stuff (or I had a house gig where it was set up permanently, I would use the old gear in a flash. I'd have my G70 up there as WELL, but not for the classic sounds!

I love the new stuff... But it doesn't change the sound of the old. Personally, I don't need to put down the sound of the old stuff to make me feel OK about using the new. I am willing to admit it doesn't sound quite as good. Sure beats having to have a Transit Van just to move my rig alone!

I have taken the Tyros4 to several jams...the guys simply loved it, and were amazed by the sounds. Remember, Diki, the Tyros4 has a terrific sound engine and Pianos, SA Organs, Strings, Brass, Guitars, Electric Pianos Clavinets are all very, very high quality. I sometimes set it on top of the B-3 and run it into the recently purchased Stagepas 600i PA system in stereo.

No, it doesn't sound exactly like the B-3 I play, but, then again, no two B-3's ever sounded alike. The main thing is it sounds great and fits well in the music. Sometimes I'll use the T4's combo organ sounds, which are very accurate.

I'll always take the Tyros4 if it's just me, the guitar player, and Saxophonist, and we use the T4's styles, usually trimmed down a little. We have fun! That's why we jam!

These guy's aren't stuck in a time zone...they are progressive enough to work with the new and the old. The drummer uses an electronic kit (along with his acoustic set), and the guitarist has one of those new Roland/Fender Strat guitar synths...very cool.

We are the only ones we have to please...and we do..I always look forward to the sessions.

As far as I can tell, no one is putting down "the sound" of the old gear in this thread...it does sound great...it's just no longer convenient to travel with it, and it's nice to have a viable alternative.

BTW, if you are no longer using a transit van, are you using something smaller, like a hatchback, or some other kind of vehicle for personal transportation and/or moving your gear?

Ian

After reading DonM's post about the new being so much better than the old...I have to decide what to do with my wife now!!!

So why jam on the oldies at all? If the Tyros is as good?

Personally, I am delighted every time I get an opportunity to play one of the old standbys, and look forward to the opportunity to remind myself why they are STILL the goto sounds for most pop music. Every time I play one, I go back to my arrangers, and go 'Well, THAT'S not quite as good now I played the real thing!'

Why not jam on the oldies?

I'm very happy that you get a chance to play one of those old standbys, Diki, I cut my teeth on those old beauties, and, I agree, it sure is a lot of fun, and even more so when it doesn't have to be moved or set up/down.

Like most here, you must be grateful not to have to lug really heavy gear...what are you using to transport your present setup? Surely you were able to downsize vehicles, too?

Ian

Fran, don't you know that old adage, "Many a good tune played on an old fiddle"?

What are you using as a vehicle to haul around your present keyboard setup? Are you able to get by with a car (maybe a hatchback?) or are you using a van or truck?

Aren't you interested in the lighter, more portable BK-9?

Ian

...OR ...
You could take a lesson from us "oldies" who have supported our families, pleased thousands of fans and created beautiful art for MANY, many years before you got started. I still have lots to offer ... and the clients still pay the fare for it.

(I'm sure you were just joking, baz ...)

How many times in the old days did I run around after a tube blew and I didn't have a spare for that one? I played a 6 year house job, 6 nights a week for 6 years with a B 3 and a Shure Vocal Master. That sounded great in it's day. But do you know how much more I can get out of my S 950 and Bose Compact? It's like day and night. Like Gary started out, it will take me the rest of my performing years just to get to all of the goodies on the 950. The vocal processing is awesome. I am getting great results with the VH. I'm not keeping as crazy a schedule as Gary. I just spent a few days at our place in Ocean City, MD. But I couldn't wait to get to the job today and fire up the 950. It sounded great, and it made me sound great. What more could one ask? Now if only we could get the federal government working......................

Joe

The VH2 is a great improvement over Yamaha's early attempts, but I've found that any more than one harmony really taxes the system in the 950 ... maybe its just the way I sing, or the strength of the signal, but if you don't use the on-board gate and limiter it breaks up far too easily for my taste, and I just don't care for the sound with the processing ON ... I know, I know ... I'm extra finiky. As a straight vocal preamp ... it sounds great ... it's just the harmonies that perform a bit awkwardly for my taste. Glad you're getting good results Joe.

The VH-2 isn't perfect, but I think it is a decent improvement over the earlier version.

Since I'm not a singer per se, I rarely use my T4's VH for vocal...I do like using it as a vocoder, something it does very well.

To explain for those who aren't familiar with the term, a vocoder (short for "voice encoder") is a device that makes ordinary sounds, such as chords played on a synthesizer, sing or speak recognizable words. Often used as a novelty effect, but great when using Yamaha's SA Choir/Voice sounds.

Vocoders have been around for over 30 years, but this is the first time I've really had the desire to utilize this effect, since it is already so conveniently available on my Tyros4.

I'm still learning the finer details, but it is sure a lot of fun.

Relating to what Joe said above, today's arrangers are incredibly deep, and inspire (and need) lots of exploring.

Ian

The Tyros 4 doesn't feel like a Rhodes or a B3 but it has one of the finest synth action keybeds I have ever played and I have had a lot of synth action keyboards over the years. I don't even own a T4 but when I played one I was very impressed by the keybed. It sure smokes the one on my old Motif 6.

There are three reasons why I don't have a BK9....First I want a touch screen....secondly, since I left the band I do not need an audio player....and third, I haven't played one yet

When I used a minivan, it was the ideal vehicle...now I use a SUV, a totally over-rated vehicle for any thing...The minivan went anywhere my SUV does, carried more equipment and more economical to run..

Today I only have to haul a Roland Cube, V-stand and G70..

I had to use a Corvette in a pinch once...the G1000 at the time was a project getting it in the passenger seat..

My old 1957 Suburban would have been considered an SUV I suppose, although it wasn't 4-wheel drive. It wasn't very good in snow unless it was full of gear.

I prefer a van as well, and used to rent Dodge Caravan when doing clinics that required I carried the instruments with me. They were terrific in bad weather.

It used to be annoying that the guitar players could drive cool cars, whilst we keyboard guys always had to have a van or the equivalent. Now, at least, we can drive cars, although a Corvette must have been interesting to pack.

No sign of BK-9 in my area at all, and none on order, which is the only way the store will bring one in. I'd hoped to try one out, since several here are very enthusiastic about it.

The lack of touch screen wouldn't bother me, and I'm glad to see they've added the 16-track midi sequencer.

Hopefully I will get to try one soon.

Ian

Wow! Just got back from a 4-day cruise on my sailboat with my wife, the weather was fantastic, and the number of posts and emails during that time boggles the mind.

Some of the comments I anticipated, loved what DonM and Joe Ayala had to say. I just unloaded the boating stuff from the Dodge Grand Caravan, and loaded in the S-950 and Bose L1 compact. I have a restaurant job tomorrow evening, the place will be packed, and I'm really looking forward to it.

When I did have a house job, and I've had several long term house jobs, the keyboards always filled the dance floors as well as when I was playing in a 5-piece country band. No difference, same audiences, but didn't have to split the proceeds 5 ways.

Next weekend, if the weather cooperates, the old man will be cruising down Chesapeake Bay again. Unfortunately, I cannot continue down the bay until I reach the Florida Keys again. I would love to do so, but unfortunately, next year is booked out completely, so I'll have to wait till 2015 to make beautiful music in the Tiki Bars of Marathon and Key West again. Hope I'm still in good enough physical shape to do it.

Cheers,

Gary

So, when you played in a 5 piece, the keyboards were the only thing that brought in the crowds? Must have been a chore, having to share the stage with four people that brought nothing to the table!

I am sorry, but I find this attitude abhorrent. 'No difference'?

Maybe in your mind...

Diki,

You, obviously, are reading something into my post above that is NOT there. If you recall many of my other posts, when I performed in a five-piece band I was a guitar player and vocalist - not a keyboard player. We had lots of fun back then, we filled dancefloors, we ALL brought something to the venue. And the point I was trying to make is that since then, the arranger keyboard fills the dancefloor as well as the entire band did in years past-nothing more, nothing less.

If you find my attitude ABHORRENT, so be it. What I find abhorrent is your continual negative attitude toward every thread on this forum. No matter what the subject, for some mysterious reason, you continually find something negative to post about it. Whether it's a keyboard, amp, vocal processor, cables, you name it and Diki has something negative to say about it. If the folks on this forum, and their equipment make you feel this way, why are you still here?

Good Luck,

Gary

What appalls me is the fairly constant putting down of other musicians as never being good enough...

To be quite frank, most of the musicians I've played with in live bands easily outshine most on here. Most of them can improvise well (can't remember the last arranger piece posted here that was much more than a rote recitation of the melody, certainly can't remember the last decent solo), most of them were at least as professional as anyone else here, and yet we have this semi-constant theme about how proud we all are, replacing them with a machine that doesn't sound one iota as good as them. Greed wins out over art, every time.

There isn't one of us here that, to be frank, probably sounds better as a solo than they did in a full band, but everyone sure THINKS they do. Bad news, guys... unless you were in a terrible band, you don't sound anywhere NEAR as good.

That people will still get up and dance to you, and enjoy the show is no proof of superiority. People will clap for a trained monkey, too! The sad fact is, the only reason we are getting gigs as solo's with arrangers is we are willing to undercut our fellow musicians, fire them, and make up some kind of BS that things were never better. And greedy club owners and restaurateurs are just fine with that...

Personally, I am seeing more and more bands that are using MP3's to do all the keyboard parts. And, you know what? You can hardly blame them... Having been told in no uncertain terms how some of us feel they are dead weight, unreliable, poor personal hygiene, whatever BS excuse you can come up with to assuage whatever degree of guilt you feel about firing them to make more money for the club owner (no way is he paying little ol' you what he paid the full band) and a bit extra for you, they have every right to turn the tables on us.

Bottom line... we opened the door. Keyboard players were the first with the technology to replace all the other musicians. Trouble is, of course, now they have the technology to replace US..! We showed no solidarity when we got the power, who can blame them now?

At the end of the day, what is music? Is it a few people playing together, or is it one person and a laptop? Or an arranger? Because, if it is the latter, better watch out. There is precious little difference between a singer with an arranger, and a singer with a laptop and a bunch of karaoke MP3's. And, who knows..? The singer with the laptop might undercut YOU.

We've painted ourselves into a corner, and I'm not sure we realized the consequences when we started this trip. The sad fact is, we are no more special, talented, or indispensable than any other 'musician'. We can ALL be replaced.

So, next time you feel like telling us about how bad the musicians you played with were, and how good you feel about getting rid of them and no-one in the audience cares one way or the other, I only hope you find yourself in THEIR shoes one day. I wonder what you will say about who replaces YOU!



Please, let's not pretend that this wasn't posted. I can go back and find a dozen more if you need them.

Diki, Abe was fired because he didn't show up for the job - nothing more, nothing less. Some folks, however, don't seem to understand that no matter how good you are as a musician, you're totally worthless if you're not there. No different than any other job - you don't show up for work, or constantly come late - YOU'RE FIRED! Plain and simple. Like I posted below that post you referred to, Abe and I are still good friends. We go fishing together, drink a few beers together, etc... We just no longer work together. He had a totally different work ethic and business approach than I have. Abe was one hell of a drummer, when he was there. When he wasn't, well, you probably never experienced that.

Cheers,

Gary

Sadly (for the music industry in general) Diki nailed it!


R.

Gary, you didn't go out and find a drummer that COULD do the gig... you just replaced him with a beatbox that the ONLY thing it did better was play at the volume you needed.

And you haven't needed a drummer ever since?

Not a particularly high bar for the groove...

I've said it many times ... the number one priority for most acts SHOULD be:

Voice (or instrumental melody)
Bass
Drums
Everything else.

In THAT order. The drums are no where near as important to the pocket or the groove as the bass is, and the interaction of the bass and lead.
Sure, a tight groove between a bass player and a drummer is a wonderful thing, but it's the bass that makes people dance, not the drums. The bass give the chords their identity and enhance the melody, which is always the most important element when pleasing most crowds.
Simple, solid drum beats go a LONG way to enhance any style ... give me Ringo on every job. (assuming he only wants to get paid ONCE!)
LOL

Diki, if you only want to play with live drummers ... who's stopping you?

Nope - never needed another live drummer, Diki. Some folks need em - some folks don't!

Dave, couldn't agree more.

Cheers,

Gary

Diki, what the [potty mouth] are you on here for? This is an arranger forum. It's clear to me that you belong on a band forum where you can chew the fat with all of the players in the band. The whole purpose of being an arranger player is to be a solo act. No more and no less. It is what it is. You can debate all day the pros and cons of working with or without players, but again I say, this is an arranger forum. If you don't like that, maybe it's time to move on.

IMHO, Joe

Joe... I have been thinking the same thing. Although, I've been blown away by some of the insights Diki has posted that DO relate to arrangers. But, as of late, he appears to be better suited on another forum. He's no dummy, but he fails to see how he can irritate us lowly arranger players.
Eddie

Because of hand/arm injuries, I'm playing more arranger gigs than I usually do, and am glad to get to do them.

But, I do agree that the optimum is playing with live players.

I believe that Diki is in the same boat, and simply expressing his wish to be the best player he can be. For him, as well as me, that would be playing with other players. That unspoken communication with like minded and skilled players is where the magic is!

One slight difference between Diki's preference and mine is,like Dave, I want the best player in a group to be the person on bass.

A dynamite pocket takes both bass and drums, with a voice or lead instruments weaving that great little path in between.

As far as contributions, Diki is a wealth of information...so passionate about what he does that, sometimes his mouth works faster than his brain.

But, if I don't watch, I tend to do the same thing. Diki does what I believe a modern musician should do...utilize technology, but don't use it as a crutch. And I can relate to being flexible, in doing studio work, singles, arranger work and group work.

I tend to cut him a lot of slack, and would love to share a bandstand with him one day.

Russ

I tend to cut someone the same amount of slack I see them give to others...only exception would be if I know they are going through a particularly hard time.

Ian

Thanks Russ...

Joe... Have you forgotten I play ONLY an arranger? That I use it for live playing as well as solo gigs might give me a perspective that perhaps some of you that have decided to give up on playing with others quite a while ago may have lost.

The thing that gets up my nose here, probably the most, is listening to players that probably couldn't cut it in a real live band put down the very musicians that inspire their machines in the first place. No arranger EVER came up with a decent groove by itself. In fact, most of the best arranger styles have drum tracks actually played by drummers! But while these tiny snippets of drumming, guitar playing, etc. suffice as a passable backing, they fall so short of the real thing it astounds me how anyone can make the comparison.

I have no problem using an arranger... I have plenty of TOTL WS's, but when I go out the door, no matter what the gig, I take an arranger. Live band, duo, solo, session work, it's all the same to me. If that doesn't count as a reason for being here, I don't know what you are looking for... Other than, perhaps, you'd prefer I fall into line and drink the Kool-Aid and pretend the arranger is better than a live band. Well, sorry. Can't bring myself to do it!

To push ourselves, to get the most out of these technological wonders, the first thing you need to do is accept their limitations. Then you push hard at the manufacturers to address them. This is why, primarily, I spend time here. Now, while I am sure that my efforts were only a small part of it, I am sure that at least SOME of what I have done over the last few years to keep the Chord Sequencer at the forefront of consciousness, has impacted the fact that TWO major manufacturers have introduced it (or re-introduced it!) recently. I consider this feature one of the essential things you need to be able to play well on an arranger (or you simply resign your LH to rote chord repetition), and I'm ecstatic that it has returned to the fold. Even expanded a bit...

So, Joe, what's YOUR reason for being here?

I have a friend who plays singles and band gigs (up to7 pcs)using more than one instrument, with his T2. He is an extremely talented virtuoso and gets everything out of his arranger. It sounds terrific. But he is equally at home playing with the band. He rarely uses the bass loops in the arranger playing manual bass on his left. As to what sounds better, sometimes it is close depending on the depth of the musician has gone to programming and using the arranger. Live musicians can add more improvisation and authentic sounds, but I cannot simply write off a player who is a omb ,especially if he/she has delved in to the sounds, styles, etc., toward their full capabilities.

I have done the same, playing singles and with my 5 piece band (before my torn rt wrist tendon) as the venue demands, and the price covers. The business of playing demands this flexibility, particularly in tough economic times, when owners and clubs went from paying full bands to duos and singles.

Some people do this for the money, and some people don't need the money. I think it is a virtue to be able to do both kinds (single/band) of performances. And it has become necessity if you count on the income.

What I don't believe in is painting everybody, or large sections of everybody, with a broad brush. To say most of the people here don't have significant talent to me means a) You've traveled the country, wait-the world, and heard everyone that is an sz member to evaluate them as such, and b) that you hold your abilities/talent above all of these people. Its just plain insulting and unsupported given the sample you extract your data from..and worse when you back peddle when confronted. Slinging arrows from the safety of an anonymous address via computer certainly doesn't impress me. And don't say that was not your intent- there are volumes of comments here that show just the opposite. And, I never believe that someone can make themselves superior by trying to make all of those around him/her appear inferior. It's just bullying, passively aggressive, but that's what it is. So don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. From what I read, there appear many here that would be willing to do that for you...

Dike my reason for being here is because I play an arranger. I am a very accomplished pianist and vocalist and I've played in many bands over the years including back up bands for both the Flamingo's and the Platters. And BTY, the Terry Johnson Flamingos are in the rock and roll hall of fame. These days I work as a OMB and I'm very proud of the level of artistry that I bring to that format. The arranger KB gives me the latitude to combine the talent that I have with the vast palete of choices that it has and for me it has become an incredible marriage. At this point in my life I wouldn't go back to playing the old way. There's way too much satisfaction and money here. I think that's the kind of thing this forum supports and that's why I'm here.

Joe

I guess it's all personal. Yes, there's money in singles. Is there satisfaction? Yes, of course there is. But is there MORE satisfaction playing in a band..?

For some of us, that's a no, for others, a yes. I'm afraid, count me in in the yeses. The predictability of the arranger, the fact that, when you call up a certain style, that bloody drummer is going to play it EXACTLY the way he did yesterday (and so is everybody else), that's the difference.

Sure, you can PERFORM something perfectly... But you can't CREATE something. At least, not at the interactive level. That arranger guitarist is never going to throw a lick at you that makes you think, or the drummer is never going to pull up and surprise you, lead you down a path you have not thought of. We get so absorbed in these little wonders, we often forget how and why we started playing. Not to perform rote versions of hits, but to CREATE and delight (ourselves probably more than anyone else!).

I'm sorry, but I've been here quite a while (at least since 2005). I've made a point of listening to almost everything ever posted here. It's got nothing to do with MY abilities, or lack thereof, but I'm sorry. The number of really GOOD demos are slim. And even fewer of them were of music that could in any way be describes as 'hip' or 'grooving'. Am I expecting too much? I can go out most nights of the week and hear a band do that. But in years of listening here? Not so much. If I'm insulting the forum as a whole (and I don't believe I am), post something. Let's hear it. If anyone's doing something that comes close to a GOOD live band, for Pete's sake, I want to hear it! I want to be inspired by it. I want to figure out how you did it!

I still think I've got plenty to learn... That ain't trying to look superior, chum.

What I will say Diki is at least you have the testicles to tell folks on SZ their level of musical expertise is pretty low, not many can do that or will come out and say that, you certainly are my Mr S.Z. Controversy and that's how we will all remember you when you're gone. Obviously to judge others as critically as you do, you need to be much better, a bit like Simon Cowell, I take it you are head and shoulders above, just never heard you. It is interesting to read your posts when you have your neck wound right out, but frankly I never get past the first 2 lines, much too wordy and prolix for me. Never mind Diki we are not going to change and neither are you, keep the spleen venting coming, certainly keeps folks on the edge or their seats when really if they take your advice they would be better practising and not come here on SZ, until such times as they have something to be really proud about. What's interesting people keep coming back for more of you, I think they just wait for the trip ups, its a love hate thing with them. Drummers, who needs a drummer buy an Audya and really be abused..

No , Diki you have not simply insulted the forum as a whole. I've seen many times where you have singled out individuals as well. I suppose we could take a poll....
I think if your discussion didn't stray from purely the limitations of the equipment to those who use it it would seem less abrasive. Being a forum member since 2005 is not in and of itself an impressive credential, at least not to me. Seniority in the workplace, private club membership, or talk forum doesn't constitute superior ability or position, command respect, insert knowledge, require submission, or acceptance of anyone- it usually just means you're old.

Again, you have taken a limited sampling and applied to a much larger group producing a flawed conclusion.

I sincerely hope you do continue to learn. You might want to start by reading up on basic human respect, then be more careful about picking your targets.. I don't believe The purpose of this forum is to allow semi-anonymous bullying- I don't care how long you've been a member. Nobody signed up for nor deserves that when they haven't asked for it.

Chum? I don't think so.

Long time coming, but that's as good as its going to get, alas it won't make one jot of difference

Hi Diki,

Please send some of your stuff for Ron to host on CCS like many others over here did. I'm not for, neither against you, but I would love to hear your music also. I enjoy listening to the way others do it...

All the best my friend,

Henni

Maybe, no probably not Tony. But it is clear where I stand, and more importantly what I stand for. Enough.............

I respect your views, much the same as other would too, if they could come out from hiding under the bed.

No please Henni not listen to Diki playing, then I will know how bad I really is.... and others too, send them scurrying like rats out of a barrel on fire. Mass sale of arrangers on ebay