The Gauntlet has been thrown down...Here continues the Midi Styles vs Audio Styles discussion. Some still claim that Midi drum Kits in Styles are the way forward for Arranger Keyboards, others prefer live audio recordings for their rhythm section. Some manufacturers have played with Audio Drums (Wersi and Yamaha for instance) whilst so far only Ketron has fully embraced them with Live guitars and drums.

At this point it is a discussion on THE DRUMS ONLY Once we have covered this we can move onto the full styles.

RULES:

Recording
1) Recording must be done in ONE TAKE via the onboard recorder and presented in WAV or MP3 format.
2) BASS LINE is allowed, but at least one example must be drums only and must not overpower the recording
3) No post editing, except for normalize.
4) You must state the Style Name (in case your tempted to upload a Dylan Elise recording and pretend its from your PS3)

Suggestion: keep fills to a minimum...if at all, use intro's and endings wisely.

Playback
1) If your listening through laptop speakers or low cost PC speakers your disqualified from having an opinion and will be sent to solitary confinement in the Kawai Discussion Board
- Suggestion: use Reference Headphones or good quality DJ headphones (not Eagle sets from 1978 or in ear walkman sets unless you want a slap on your way here)



--------------------------

First Challenge:
THE SWING CATEGORY

SWING CATEGORY

Here are four from the Audyas original Factory Style Library. Recorded in WAV format, normalised and then converted to MP3 at 128kbps (on my PC) as the files averaged 10mb each as wav, there is a little compression as a result, but not enough to detract.

No Fills or Breaks used.

1) Jazz Quartet. No intro, all four arranger parts in order and ending 3 to finish.

2) Romantic Slow. Intro 2 to start with, all four arranger parts in order, ending 3 to finish

3) Swing Time. Intro 3, Arranger 4, Ending 3. Style Bass in F.

4) I love this one: GOGO. Intro One, Arranger 4 (R), Ending 3

Thanx..Enjoyed listening to the demos.....unless I'm wrong...
as I can see it so far midi vs audio drums discussion is that with audio you cannot do any editing to the kits that's where the controversy lies....so your essentially stuck with what they give you.

It came about after Diki said this:



Which warrants some evidence to support the claim And as I do not have a Roland and Diki does not have an Audya what better way to find out than post examples...

I also would love to hear from owners of all the other major players like Tyros, PSR950, PA3X and any other arrangers, new or old.



As for being stuck with what I'm given, for me, I would rather have my 400 or so audio loops and 700 Factory styles than an endless supply of Midi stuff...but that's just me of course. But I do understand others have got used to being all powerful when it comes to their drummer....after all your Midi Drummer cant quit when you tell him to turn down the bass drum or move the snare to the other side of the stage...hehe

Now I've heard the Ketron and awaiting the others to make a comparison.

Gary

where is everyone? I thought we would have loads of Yamaha and Roland stuff on here by now

There are so many Tyros and PSR owners here and they are always saying how great the styles are...c'mon guys.

It's a good idea in theory....but, Didn't you know?.. on this forum the minute someone requests a demo of "any kind" of music all the shutters close up tight and you can hear a pin drop. Your better off just listening to whatever on You Tube.

Another reason is that today is SUPER BOWL SUNDAY !!!!!!!

but all that is required is to press the start and stop button...no need to even play a note!

Its Sunday...maybe everyone is too busy.

http://justintimeband.homestead.com/XFER.html



Here are Roland BK5 drum samples..random selection ..

It is 10.4 mgs ..too large to post on SZ..so here is a link to my website..

Well done for having a go Fran, although its not really what I was hoping for. Sadly its pretty impossible to compare them as you have loads of different styles all rolled into one file.

Would it be possible just to pick some individual ones from the Swing Category for now and upload only those (just four will do as I did above)

But thank-you for making the effort.

here are two swings

and a third

great, thank you Fran.

Lets also include Live Body Drums

Are the drums the same on the BK5 as the BK7?

Camp Yamaha is real quiet at the moment.

When I get a chance I will change up some of the default styles and use the new "Brush kit" and "Brush perc"..with a newer bass to show tightness..

So far the Ketron "Audio" drums have the edge, but I believe the BK5 outshines the Ketron "Midi" drums...

Maybe you can post a few samples of Ketron MIDI drums..

Since no Korg or Yamaha have posted yet..my experience with the Korg and Yamaha model I have owned...the newer Roland does beat them for realistic sounding drums..I am comparing to my Tyros3, PSR2100, PA800 and Microarranger..

Hey TWD,

I was going to do some using BFD vst drums, but as Diki said, they (BFD) already have plenty of website drums demos...so probably a link would be sufficient???

I am thinking though, that this shootout is more between the BK series, the Audya, The PA3 and the Tyros 4, yes?

Dennis

When this is all said and done would someone tell us what it all means? just sayin'....
All I know the "rumored" NEW Tyros 5 is gonna blow away anything on the market New or Old!!

In your imagination. It doesn't exist yet so it doesn't even consider rating until it does. So far in this thread the Audya audio style drums certainly have the most realism. But I won't vote until I hear all candidates including the S950 audio style drums.

I never give an opinion on something I have never heard. Nobody in their right mind would do that.

Tyros 5 is just that Nigel a rumor who knows if it's true or not?....

I tried to record the S950 audio style DRUMS into the seq on the KB but it wont let me,..only the bass records not the drums.
Same with the audio player rec. Unless I'm doing something wrong. Otherwise I'll have to record them into my computer when I get a chance this week sometime..I actually already voted because no matter how good Audio drums sound you can't edit them Yet....hope that changes in the future somehow.

The sequencer does not record audio...only midi data..

Thanx Fran...just realized that lol..

I would love to record something and post it, but I don't have a means of recording anything down here - I wish I could.

Good Luck TWD in getting the others to post something,

Gary

I look forward to hearing it Donny. I think that the S950 may be the main contender for the Audya.

Although Midi is always more easy to edit than audio, this poll doesn't seem to indicate it is about editing.

Here are some yamaha S950 Audio Drum & Midi drum styles demos..

First Bebop Style (Midi Drums) Intro, Var4, Ending (acoust bass)

Second Cool Swing (Audio Drums)Intro var1,2,3,4 end

Third Big Band Swing (Audio Drums) Intro, var 1,2,3,4, ending.
with acoustic bass.

My observation so far...The Ketron is the best (Audio drums)..
The BK5 comes real close and they are midi drums..

The s950 audio drums are decent..except they recorded with too much effects and you have to live with it..another observation,,the Yamaha midi drums sound pretty average (another term for poor) compared to their audio tease..

Still waiting to hear a recording of Ketron midi drums..( although I already heard them and believe the BK midi drums out shine the midi drums on the Ketron too)

I recall listening to audio loops in the Audya and substituting them with midi sounds...TALK about being naked..and this is within the same instrument..

The original comment by Diki seems fairly accurate...the BK is pretty close (not better) than audio drums on the Ketron...but the difference is small..and edits are plentiful on the BK..

Yamaha still needs to upgrade the midi drum kits...and audio drums seems to be a tease presently, with a test for future interest..

BTW: They all sound great compared to a decade ago..

Yep... weekend and Superbowl have but a crimp on my posting my BK-7m (which I think sounds a bit better than the BK-5, but that may simply be a Master Compression/EQ issue).

But yes, the only point I have tried to make is that, in practical terms, what LITTLE extra you get from audio drums is more than outweighed by the almost total loss of control you have over them.

Thank You for posting the PSR950 recordings. I did not think any Yamaha owners would man up actually - well done!

As Diki pointed out, At the moment we are comparing Mid range keyboards with Audya which is a little unfair, so we still need
Korg PA3X and Yamaha's Flagship the
Tyros 4 (which came out after the Audya so should be in the running)

Here’s my take after listening to each example. The Ketron Audya sounded most like a real drummer but a bit too busy for my taste. The Roland sounded the least realistic. The brushes, cymbal and especially the congas gave it a very unnatural sound. The Yamaha 950 seemed to strike the best balance as far as natural sound and feel. I hope we hear some Korg and compare some other styles. I really like these comparisons as it helps make more informed decisions. How many stores in the U.S. could you compare side by side a Ketron, Roland and Yamaha

With these so called Audio styles it is what it is right now...nothing more nothing less..honestly on the S950 some of the Jazz & Latin ones are really good ...but sadly on the other hand ones like in the R&B category are less then stellar to the point of unusable. So for now it pick and choose if you want to incorporate them into your repertoire, who know what the future will bring.I'm very happy with the Midi styles to a point that many of the same Yamaha styles that were on previous models can now be exchanged for the same ones on the S950 with much better quality sound. I hope this little demonstration has helped people understand Audio Drums a little better.

Carry On

Paul, we have a slight difference of opinion

I recall a time that I thought Roland cymbals seemed lack luster..everybody else was clanging loud, and seemed to be the normal..

Then I listened closely to real acoustic drums...Roland in fact is dead on...They are very realistic..

Roland V-drums are considered to be the best in the business..

They react to dynamics..and are not full on..They sound like acoustic sets...unmiked as they should..

What you mentioned as balanced with the Yamaha midi set..the ride is annoying at best..it is louder than the drums...Just as annoying as a lousy drummer

For you guys that are use to the unrealistic statis quote drums..Roland has the tools to make the drums and cymbals just as annoying if you like

"status quote?" What the Hell is Status Quote? And, after patiently listening to all the posted drums, I agree with Paul. Of course, I'm old and deaf, therefore what I hear or say really doesn't count.

Gary

Hi Darren... Today I will create demos for my Pa3x...
However, I agree.... Audya is too much Live!!!!!
I am happy with my Audya!!!

Ok... Here is and Pa3x demos...
I recorded in Cubase_6 from SPDIF (Digital Record 48khz), normalize and export to MP3 (320kbps)...

Swing Band.mp3

Acoustic Shufle.mp3

Bossa Nova.mp3

BeBop.mp3

Sokratis nice job....I didn't like the resonance of the snare on the first demo swing band,.....but, the rest of them sounded real nice and live!

I agree, but I guess the the beauty of midi- you can change the drum kits easily.

I love the BeBop Style Variation 4 that allows you to play 'fours' with the drummer ... when I was first trying this style on my Pa600 and the accomp stopped I thought 'what the heck is going on?!?' ... when I realized, it blew me away ...

OK, here's some BK-7m examples with the Master compressor off, but EQ still on (sounds a hair tubby on pro studio monitors, but will probably be better on computer speakers). BTW, recorded straight to the simple audio recorder in the BK-7m, then converted to MP3's in iTunes. No particular style selection, just a bunch of randomly selected ones...

Two more

Two more (why am I limited to only two per post?)

Keep going...

Finally...

BTW, I'm curious as to why some have no fills... how the fills connect the different Variations, how it all flows together is as important as the basic sound.

And particularly with audio styles, there's lots of opportunity for one audio file to not transition smoothly to the next one (whether it's the recording, or the hardware's fault). For one thing, how do you get crashes on the 'one'? Are they always MIDI crashes on the very last tick of the fill (like MIDI styles do), or is there a way for the tail end of the fill to ring on, while the audio engine plays the beginning of the next audio file at the same time?

Well this has been really interesting, thanks for everyone taking the time to do this.

I have been VERY surprised with the results. Putting the Audya aside, I expected to like the Korg best, but it wasn't that simple:

Roland.
The BK7 was the biggest surprise for me. The drum kits are indeed excellent (except the brushes which are the worst of the bunch), the big problem is with the patterns themselves, often they are unnatural and lumpy, sometimes the percussion instruments used are totally random and would not be played that way in real life. If Roland were to use real drummers to play the drum parts of the Midi style (using a Midi Drum kit) it would make a huge difference. The BK5 didn't sound quite as good as the BK7, perhaps this was the recording, not sure. Diki's recordings were very good quality, and at 320kbps there is almost no audible compression.

Korg PA3X
The Korg patterns are better than the Roland ...although many are obviously programmed much slower as the tom runs are just silly in places! Many are still too jerky though and actually sound like something I might do if I were programming a style (I am not very good and my styles sound too mechanical..like a walking Robot)! The percussion instrument samples are good, but not quite as good as Roland's BK7, but the brushes are far superior to the Roland and are the best Midi brushes I have heard. The Crashes...they are all over the place, lots of different pitches and all over the stereo image which is odd sounding

Yamaha
The Midi Drum instruments are the least impressive of the bunch (Maybe the Tyros is better?) and the drum patterns are quite messy. Again....why are Yamaha not using drummers to play the drum parts instead of keyboard players? The Audio drums sound much better than the Midi drums, but the patterns are not great and I am not convinced these are 100% real drummers - sounds like an Audio recording of a Midi Drum style mixed in with some real Audio which is a little weird.

Obviously we all have different benchmarks, and I am glad we have the choice of all these different instruments. Although I couldn't go back to midi styles, I would not want any of these manufacturers to stop... or worse disappear. Its bad enough that Gem and Technics have gone it would be a disaster if we lost another.

Is anyone here a drummer, I would be interested to know what they think?

Thank you for posting all those Diki - very nicely done.

To answer your question I will record some styles and add fills so you can hear how the Audya handles the transitions between loops. you are right, often the Audya will use a crash or similar.

To my aging ears, they all sounded pretty good, not a lot of difference between them, some, particularly the BK7 latin styles, sounded somewhat thin and too much reverb, but overall, there wasn't sufficient difference to make me jump up and down and look for another keyboard because of what I just heard. As for what the audience hears, they could probably care less.

Thanks to everyone that took the time to post,

Gary

Id like to hear a few G70 drum patterns also in this mix to compare...Diki,Fran,Cass?

They all sound great - but I HATE, HATE, HATE it when swing patterns have "Congas" or "Bongos" in the style!!!! GRRRrrrrrrrrr.
My Korg is famous for that - I have to edit all that junk out - swing bands don't have conga players...or claves ... or even tambourines. That's a real buzz kill for the groove.

I think my original point still stands. Yes, there are slight differences between manufacturers, and yes, overall, audio recordings sound a bit better.

BUT.... only a bit!

And what you lose is EVERYTHING. Not only the ability to edit the pattern, but also to easily make your own, or 'lift' a great set of patterns from an SMF. When time permits, I'll post some patterns from the BK or G70 and then apply a 'Cover tools' preset to them, which changes the kit entirely (it can change the style entirely, too!). It is a piece of cake to take pop patterns, and make them into brush patterns, or Rock patterns and make them techno, whatever... This is something you just can't do to audio.

BTW, one of those Latin patterns was 'thin' because there's no kick drum! If you play the full style, the bass plays the tumba...

The BK5 was recorded as an MP3 directly to the inexpensive Tascam Dr-07...

I am sure a better recording quality can be acheived by recording as a wav via BK5 audio recorder, and converted to MP3 via MixCraft..

Tonewheel, I agree with most of your comments, but I don't think Roland brushes are bad or even the worst of the lot..

I would like to hear Diki record the same styles I recorded on the BK5 with his BK7m..to get a better feel...if there is any difference...I don't think there is...sample wise...I would think settings are more of a factor, and surely recording gear...and method..

Take the compressor off, Fran. Listen to the patterns without it. Just leave on the Standard EQ preset, and you should be getting apples to apples.

TBH, I don't think there's a LOT of difference in the drum kits (if any). Those samples are pretty small, not a lot of gain shortening them. I think that some of the keyboard Tones, however, have been squeezed a bit, data-wise. This is not unusual for Roland (or most manufacturers) when voicing a BOTL product with the voices from the TOTL...

One of the advantages of recording to the built in recorder is that it bypasses the output circuitry (I think...). So, if you have a BOTL BK-3, which might not have as good a final output circuitry (it uses a TRS single output jack, like some of the BOTL Yamaha's), you should still get a pretty good sound direct to the recorder built in.

Unlike the S950 which doesn't allow it .....can you save Ketron Audya Audio styles to an external USB drive?

http://francarango.homestead.com/XFER.html


I recorded the G70 to the DR-07 as an MP3...

This is Rock1 kit..replaced on the BK with New Rock kit..

Select the "G70 drum demo"

Yes, you can. You can even copy & paste them there. You can copy them anywhere you like & access using the "disk" function.

Keep well my friend,

Henni

Thanx....very interesting!

It is also possible with the Audya to use Midi drums instead of Audio drums, and then you have the same facilities as any other keyboard, but I guarantee not a single Audya owner would want to do that because through a PA with a room full of people live drums are just miles apart from Midi drums. You wont hear that through headphones or in your home fully....add to that the live guitars and an Audya owner stands out head and shoulders above the rest.

Can you edit Ketron audio styles and then save as a custom audio style? If so, are audio styles as easily edited as midi based styles?

Sounds to me, that audio styles are the wave (pun intented) of the future. The audio drums posted are impressive.

Yes on both questions, you can. I do it all the time. You can also mix and match audio, grooves and midi drums in any way you please.

The 1st thing I do with most 3rd party styles, is to replace the midi drums with audio drums. Of course this does not work for the intro & endings, so I use the original midi drums for those. I can choose midi drums, audio drums, user audio drums and even two banks of grooves. The selection is astounding, to say the least.

Plus, if you want to use any mp3 section in any part of your style, just convert to wave and save in the drum section of the style. It will synch completely, follow the tempo, play in a conineous loop & follow the chords. This feature alone has tremendous potential!

I have absolutely no need to edit any audio section on the Audya - there are hundreds, no, if I count everything, then literally thousands of well defined loops to choose from, and these will play different sequences for different chords.

Really, really awesome.

Keep well all my friends,

Henni

Maybe Yamaha should take some Audio lessons from Ketron?

And then, Ketron can take some marketing lessons from Yamaha!

DITTO! Then they can also take some customer service lessons from Yamaha as well.

This, again, is kind of my point about audio drums... If they ARE so much better than MIDI drums, who wants to use legacy and converted styles only to be shown up by the audio loops? And sorry, but you can only use the audio loops already in the machine. This isn't going to help you one iota with styles in genres either not present at all, or poorly represented (no-one wants every polka, or reggae style to have the exact same drums).

Would someone with an Audya care to post some drum demo's of audio styles they have made themselves? Is it even possible? Can you create entire audio drum parts for styles, with Intro/Endings, Fills, Break/Mutes, 4 Variations, maybe a Riff?

How easy is it to do?

For me, at least, if I had to be content with ONLY the styles that the arranger came with (plus the few that the manufacturer themselves release for it), I would go crazy after a few months! Maybe MIDI styles aren't QUITE as good sounding as audio styles. But I'd rather have an arranger where I could make ANY style sound as good as the best ROM ones (with some editing) than one where I'm stuck with what I get in the first place...

Diki, you should buy a Yamaha - lots of third-party styles available. I have more than 50,000 of them, and I've just scratched the surface. Roland has some great, onboard styles, and I frequently use many of them that have been converted. I also use a fair number of converted Korg styles, and in most instances the conversions sound as good, if not better than the original.

I know, you're in love with that 50+ pound behemoth you lug from job to job, and maybe Roland will come up with something new in the next decade, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it. The next time I travel to the sunny isles of South Florida I will probably be lugging an S-950. Maybe you could sneak a couple days away from work and head to Marathon Key and try it out. Who knows, you might like what you see, feel and hear.

Miracles can happen, you know,

Gary

I truly believe that Yamaha doesn't want us to be able to edit audio drums, so they can sell us what we "need".
DonM

I have loads of styles modified for particular songs. I'll sort one or two out later. For example if I want one for Moonlight In Vermont (The Sinatra version). I would look for a swing style around 64bpm, from Style View I would assign one of the lower voices to strings. On ch. 4 I would select Arps and Licks (A library of preset arpeggios and riffs) and maybe use nice mellow trombone, I would also assign a strumming 4 beat Les Paul guitar from the Live Guitar Bank, and maybe swap out the audio drums or groove for something more suitable. On the intro I would cut the drums completely and use strings and piano on channel one and two with an Acoustic Bass. That should give me a very simple but effective style

We have at our disposal the entire Ketron Legacy Style Library too (going back to the MS series).. we can dump the Midi drums and use suitable Audio drums in their place - takes only a couple of minutes to do that,

Something Like this. Sorry, its not very well balanced but gives you an idea of what I mean:

TWD, if you had a yamaha I could provide you with a great custom file.

Gary

Hi Gary,

Not to worry, we now have nearly as many excellent 3rd party styles available for the Audya as the figure you've quoted above. The era you are talking about is OVER for the Audya - no more.

And you will be astounded to know what can be achieved by starting with some of these already magnificent styles, and adding audio sections to it. I'm a happy & content man. I made the right choice.

Keep well my friend,

Henni

I don't want anyone to think this s another 'mine is better than yours thread' It was not the intention. All the keyboards mentioned have great things to offer and are priced accordingly. The Audya costs more than a BK7 or PSR 950 and so you expect it to sound much better. But it seems many still don't understand Live audio fully or how much is available to Audya owners in the Style View editing mode.

As lovely as the Roland drum kit samples are (and they are very good) they are only as good as the style writer, changing the kits and effects cannot get around the programmers ability, (I think they must be keyboard players playing drums on a keyboard and then editing in a sequencer.) If Roland, Yamaha and Korg want to continue with Midi voicing they need to look at how they produce the styles - A Drummer and Midi Drum kit would make a huge difference to the end result. Perhaps they could afford to do this, wheras making the move to streaming technology as ketron have is probably not worth their while.

Ooh...here is something you cant do with Midi Drums

A couple of relatives tapping feet at a traditional Quebec wedding and another playing spoons. There is also an audio drum loop featuring an Australian 'wobble board' ...can you tell what it is yet

Maybe this isn't the thread for it, but I'd sure like to read about how easy (or not!) it is to create a user audio style. Anybody here done it?

I know the drums would probably be the easiest, so let's stick to that? There are many many fantastic loop libraries of drummers playing real kits, often played by big star drummers. I'd like to know, if I had a few of these libraries, how easy is it to import these loops and create an audio style with them...

Please, although a link to the manual that tells you about this, I'd REALLY like to hear about it from someone that has really TRIED. You never know about the 'gotchas' until you talk to someone that has done it!

Courtesy of one of our customers (who now owns both a Yamaha Tyros 4 and a Ketron Audya AJAMSONIC keyboard in NY), here are some TYROS 4 Drum and Bass (JAZZ AND SWING) style parts.

More to follow since 2 attachments is max. per post!

... another with just drums ...

... 2 more ...

... due to size, could only attach this one by itself ...

... cool groove ...

Dikki,

In response to your quetion above on how to create a USER AUDIO STYLE (in the KETRON AUDYA keyboard that is):-



CREATING THE STYLE FROM SCRATCH

1. Create a MIDI based style (as you would do now) with a 'template/song structure' in mind ofcourse. Include Midi drums [*]. You can use the keyboard (for simple style creation) or use a Midi based software e.g. CUBASE which most of us use (for professional quality).
It is advisable to leave Chord 5 empty [**]

2. Share the template with a professional drummer who will now record the drum parts to/for your style above (preferrably at a studio if you want great results). Ofcourse he/she can either record the entire song and you later break down the individual wave files for each part (Intro, Arranger A, B ... Ending) OR, you can have him/her play each part and record separately (the former is better so as not to break the 'feeling').
If you already have a loop library, SKIP THIS PART AND TO TO (3) BELOW AS LIFE JUST GOT A WHOLE LOT EASIER!! This is the most expensive part when it comes to creating an AUDIO style from scratch (including drummer time, studio time ... etc)

3. Collect all 18 individual wave files (i.e. Reggae_Intro1@90.wave, Reggae_Intro2@90.wave, Reggae_ArrA@90.wave ... etc where "@90" denotes the BMP it was recorded as - AUDYA needs this to establish a base from which any tempo variation will be measured from) and COPY into the AUDYA's Hard Drive (Folder called USER AUDIO DRUMS) - using a USB pen drive or by connecting the AUDYA to your PC via a USB cable. This is the same folder where all previous, new, purchased ... etc Audio Drums of yours are stored (the Factory AUDIO DRUMS reside in a different folder).

4. Copy your MIDI BASED STYLE you've created (as you would do for any keyboard)[Reggae.pat] into the AUDYA's Hard Drive (USER STYLE - LATIN folder) so whenever you press the USER STYLE and LATIN category, your style will be displayed and can be selected using the corresponding F1-F10 button to the side of the screen) as is the case now for any style.



HOW TO ASSOCIATE THE RELATIVE AUDIO PARTS

1. Test the style AS IS to make sure all chord parts respond as needed to the different chord structures. If not, you may have to go into the PATTERN/STYLE EDITOR and fix any errors (or back into CUBASE if that is the software that was initially used).

2. If the style is performing well (MIDI BASED), you can now move into the more exiting part which we call AUDIO STYLE MODELLING!

3. Press STYLE VIEW which is our way to display all parts of the style (DRUM1, DRUM2/GROOVE, Bass, Chords 1-5, Lower1, Lower2).

4. F1 (DRUM 1) displays the MIDI drums. Press F1 to highlight them. Now you can instantly scroll through (by simply turning the data wheel) all the over 80+ Midi DRUM KITS to hear how your style sounds with different MIDI KITS ... if you want (this mimics having your Midi Drummer playing the same notes, but on different drum kits). If you want to strictly use AUDIO DRUMS, turn down the volume of the MIDI DRUMS to "0" or ... simply MUTE the actual drum parts (Kick, Snare, High Hat ... etc) that are not needed and leave the Percussion parts which you can now fuse with the AUDIO DRUMS you are about to insert (or mute everything MIDI - if you also have the percussion parts with your AUDIO DRUMS!

5. Press F1 once more and now F1 displays AUDIO DRUMS (off). Ofcrouse they are off as these are the FACTORY AUDIO DRUMS ... which again you can simply press ENTER to turn on and use the DATA WHEEL to scroll through the FACTORY AUDIO DRUMS - if you want to use FACTORY AUDIO DRUMS with your style. If you do select FACTORY DRUMS, you need only select for ONE PART (e.g ARRANGER A) and automatically the others get assigned to the relative AUDIO parts of this AUDIO DRUM loop!

6. Press F1 yet again and it now displays DRUM BANK. Here reside all (well, most) of the DRUM TRACKS used in KETRON products - so you can actually use MIDI and GROOVE DRUM tracks that were used in styles from say the SD1, X1 ... etc!

7. (YOUR INTEREST). Press F1 yet again and now it displays USER AUDIO DRUMS Off. Press ENTER to turn on and use the data wheel to scroll through to YOUR Audio drums. So, if you are in ARRANGER A, you should scoll through for Reggae_A@90.wav. Press ARRANGER B and do the same but this time, scroll through for Regge_B@90.wav and repeat for ALL the arranger parts to assign each part it's corresponding AUDIO DRUM Track (so, you can get creative and record effects, voices ... etc - they MUST NOT ONLY BE DRUMS)! TAKE NOTE ... you can mix and match between AUDIO, MIDI and GROOVES and play all at once, vary each one's volume ... etc. Once more, you're the Engineer in control!

8. Test to make sure all is ok. When satisfied, you can now go through the EFFECTS for each part and modify as needed ... etc.

9. When done, simply press SAVE and the bottom of the screen shows you the current style's name (midi that was previously selected above)- Pressing SAVE (USER 5/10) will OVERWRITE the current STYLE using the same name... or the best thing to do is put a "@" before it so it stores it with the distinctive "A" for AUDIO STYLES and since it has a diffent name now, the original MIDI BASED style will be left untouched.

[*] The reason I mentioned including MIDI drums is so that you can use parts of this (e.g percussion) to supliment the drums ... unless you already have percussion in your AUDIO DRUM files.

[**] In STYLE VIEW, pressing F10 repeatedly (CHORD 5) toggles between MIDI (style's chord 5 part) and LIVE AUDIO GUITAR parts. You may choose to add a LIVE GUITAR to your style!

Here are 2 examples of 2 New AJAMSONIC STYLES (Soca Slide, and Ndombolo) - created from scratch using the points above. I gradually inserted the parts so you can hear how they are/were programmed and thus distinguish them ... also intentionally played more chords and less lead!

It took more time to type this explanation than it would have taken to mix both styles in STYLE VIEW once the AUDIO DRUMS and MIDI parts were created!!

This and a lot more is better explained in the 3hrs+ DVD Manual and Tutorial which we have out so you get a better picture as you SEE and HEAR how to do this ...

Enjoy (and I hope we didn't go off course with the topic at hand) as I tried as best as I could to answer to your question (which you have asked for a while now) ... This also explains (to an extent) why the AUDYA would cost a little more ...

... another example of a Style .... with fills and breaks so you notice the transitions ...

And now, back to the topic at hand (sorry if we deviated)....

* Here are Drums and Bass from the Ketron AUDYA AJAMSONIC Style - "Golden Swinger" (SWING)...

* Here are the Drums only from the Ketron AUDYA AJAMSONIC Style - "Afro Jazz" (SWING) ...

I agree that the MIDI style's drums are only as good as the person or persons who made it... but isn't that also true for the audio styles?

A poorly played loop, or a poorly miked kit, or too much or too little reverb (we'll get to that), and you have the same problems as the MIDI style... or do you?

It's a piece of cake to edit that poorly played MIDI drum loop. It's a piece of cake to edit velocities, to tame or add dynamics where needed. It's a doddle to alter the reverb and EQ per drum so you can wet up the snare without wetting up the kick, too. Want a hair more or less swing on the part? Easy with MIDI. Want to move the backbeats ahead or behind VERY slightly to create push or pull? MIDI drums can do this. Feel the drummer was a bit busy? Start erasing notes out.

If an audio loop is perfection, you are good to go. Mind you, perfection for one tune might be too busy or not busy enough for another. Perfection might only work with all the other parts, basted in the same type of reverb/room sound. Not easy to do with most arranger's built in effects... and you can end up with a style where the drums simply feel 'disconnected'. I've already heard that on some of the Yamaha drum loops.

And that's the bottom line... if perfection doesn't come OOTB, with MIDI and a bit of work, it's doable. With audio, you are done!

... and finally the new Style JAZZ FIRE (Drums and Bass, plus DRUM TEASER at the end).

For all these styles which have been uploaded, all the other tracks [Live guitars, Horns .. etc] have been mutted in order to comply with the request of this tread) .... and that's my contribution towards this segment.

... and Diki, you're right. That is why we try to catch 'perfection' up front -:)

There is something wrong here with the Tyros 4 recordings. They sound like they were recorded with a microphone in a cardboard box.

Listen to Donny's Bebop and then the T4 recording of the same style. Come on, the T4 should sound as good if not better. My Tyros 2 sounds better than these recordings.

I can't upload any recordings of my T4 because it's not here at this time. But I can tell you the Yamaha drums as far back as the PSR2000 never sounded that muffled and lifeless.

These are the worst represtentation I have ever heard of a recording of something like a shootout and I'm wondering why. Bad EQing or recording techinque?

Scott L

Scott,

She plays out several nights a week with it and might have it equed for her PA system or equivalent (I hope that's the case). Maybe someone else with access to a T4 equed with better settings can post similar? How are factory settings?

Donny, were your EQ settings factory or yours when you made your recordings?

Thanks

Aj.....My demos were all done with a Flat EQ.....directly from the S950 L/R outputs to my PC Mixcraft recording program & saved to Mp3.

http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/download/Number/1115/filename/bebop.mp3

AJ

I suspect it is the way it was EQ'd. I was a bit surprised when I heard this, as my T4 doesn't sound like this. And of course I have mine EQ'd.

I guess this brings up a point for the other recordings. These demos will sound different whether they were recorded flat or EQ'd and would affect the results. Donny of course had to record externally because the audio styles won't record onboard.

The other thing is,really, it would be nice to also hear these samples along with the other style parts. How all of this fits together is what's used in the real world.

For example, speaking as a drummer, the Ketron Romantic style sure isn't romantic sounding. All those explosions makes me wonder what the rest of the parts sound like because that drum line is anything but romantic

Scott,

Good point. I guess Darren will have to answer more on this and maybe modify the guidelines a little. I believe he was sticking to drums and bass ... for now, but the issue of out of the box (factory) versus user EQ settings BEFORE recording these takes is a good point. Also remember that some keyboards like the Ketrons have preset factory EQ settings too. My recommendation would be to keep all flat (like Donny did ... and I did same for the Ajamsonic demos above). But then, this may not be the way you play your keyboard in real life.

Too many variables ....

Hi



Thanks Diki.
Well said...

Regards
Jørgen

AJ

Yes a lot of variable to consider. Look at Donny's flat setting. This factory setting was set to make a keyboard with speakers built in sound good because most people will probably be playing with those speakers only. It also seems to me someone was saying how they need to tame down the 950's drums and bass when using external speakers unlike any other previous models.

I haven't had a chance really to listen to all the demos yet, but of yours even I noticed that yours sounded quite flat especially compared to the first Ketron demos in this thread which I noticed were from the Ketron UK site.

So, I don't know if we'll ever get this shootout worked out without any of these variables. My keyboard EQ'd sounds quite similar to Donny's flat. About the only solution I can see is if people use the settings that they think makes their drums sound better, but the only thing about that is the wide range of taste in sound.

I'm just hoping that if this continues that something that gives a fair representation of each keyboard happens as there are many lurkers out there (check the number of hits on this thread) and many will choose an instrument with info like this. If it's accurate this is great, if it's not people may end up not with the instrument that would satisfy them.

Just a couple ideas

My Audya recordings were all done on my Audya 5 at home. I recorded directly to the Hard Drive on the Audya with no external equipment. The Audya EQ is set to Factory.

In the interest of fairness I hoped everyone would do the same (or if there is no internal recorder to use an external one, also flat).

That is the only way you can get a true comparrison. (They are hosted on the Ketron UK site as I have access to it so made sense rather than uploading to a file share site or posting two at a time here)

Regarding use of other style parts, I suggested using the Bass line in some styles as this is a primary part of the Rhythm section of a band - but it needs to be kept quiet. The Bassline of Tyros ones AJ posted is so loud its hard to concentrate on the style (but I am glad one Tyros owner was brave enough to do it)

Darren,

I am glad you're leaning towards flat EQ and on board recordings (where possible). That should be a good reference point. At least she was even kind enough to do 'something' when I told her of what we were doing here and your requirements - after not seeing any Tyros 4 postings.

Scott - you're right. I did mine flat just to have a base as everyone's EQ setting would be different (depending on internal speakers, what PA they use ... etc). Using a flat setting should be a good foundation for all to follow - but yet again, not everyone's keyboard will sound great with a flat EQ setting.