I decided to start a new thread because Sparky didn't want his thread to devolve into a 'live vs recorded' debate, but it IS an interesting subject that people seem to want to express an opinion about. There are those who think that DJ'ing, KJ'ing, SMF's, backing tracks, and yes, arranger style play, is all okay as long as it gets the job done. Clearly, for this group, being a musician is a secondary consideration. How can one stand in front of a crowd, sing to a prerecorded track and then complain about the dominance of DJ's and KJ's. The only difference I can see is that the DJ/KJ will probably do it better, mainly because the original artist he is 'spinning' probably sings better than the semi-amateur OMB. The truth is, the use of arranger keyboards AS arranger keyboards in a professional setting COULD BE considered one of the things that started us down this transitional road from 'live' bands to DJ's and KJ's. We can continue to delude ourselves into thinking that 'arranger' playing is real playing and that very expensive T4 is not REALLY targeted at well-healed but modestly talented amateurs who lack either the time, the will, or the talent, to learn a 'real' instrument and who demand to sound good with the least possible effort.
I have taken a few shots in the past for expressing my opinion on this subject, with comments like "this is an arranger forum, why do bother to participate?" or some variation of that theme. Usually the label 'purist' will be thrown at you, as though it's a dirty word, if you favor any genre' other than the pablum served up by the 'high counsel', aka 'the good guys', the 'PRO's, the guys 'in the trenches'. The truth is, I like (but don’t LOVE) arrangers. I marvel at the technology, admire the talent of the guys and gals(real musicians all) that produce some of the amazing styles found on some of the keyboards, and can even see a use for them outside the home ie as a ‘sketching’ tool for for quick and dirty arrangements. Although they can (and have) been used successfully in OMB when accompanied by strong vocals, I believe they represent a very small minority in most ‘live’ venues (aside from NH’s and Assisted Living facilities). I would not hesitate to go out to see a singer/guitarist (I just watched a fantastic concert on cable with James Taylor, most of which was just vocals and guitar), or a great solo pianist or pianist/singer, but I would never knowingly go out to see an arranger player, no matter how good the ‘product’ sounded. I like the concept of ‘what you see is what you get’. Likewise, I would never take one to a gig, but then, I only play in jazz venues and jazz is all about playing what’s inside your head. What comes out of an arranger is, to a large degree, what comes out of some else’s head.
If I were planning a wedding today and only had a budget for either a OMB or a DJ, I would choose the DJ without hesitation. At least, what you see is what you get.

chas

Each his own Chas. I marvel at the Yamaha clinicians who use their talents when playing an arranger. I think most audiences would stay till the end of their shows. On the other hand, I passed (2) guitarists playing on a corner the other day and wanted to gag (and gave me a desire to play again). They were doing classic rock but couldn't carry a tune in a bucket and were awful vocalists to boot. So, give me talent and it doesn't matter what they're playing with.

Sadly, those Yamaha clinicians are the exception, not the rule, and even they are, to be perfectly frank, utterly dated and irrelevant to most under the age of 30 (maybe even 40!)...

I do however disagree a bit with chas. I am as willing to listen to virtuosity played on an arranger as much as any other instrument. No need for strong vocals, if the playing is strong enough (not the style, but the REAL playing being made on it). But yes, mostly that's pretty lacking, and relegated to hoary one finger approximations of the original melody, played usually without change on a variety of ill-advised sounds..!

But turn OFF most of what the arranger can do, strip it down to just the drums, maybe the bass line, and play your little brains out over that, and I think the arranger holds itself up pretty well.

I just wish the emphasis here was more about that, than how many OMB/NH gigs you did this week.

Okay, given that some guy playing guitar on a street corner may not be the best example of talent, and that the audiences that YOU are familiar with would stay to the end of an arranger clinic, and that talent trumps all (which I DO agree with), I would still rather hear a super talented person playing solo guitar or solo piano than an arranger. I suspect most musicians would feel the same. Gawd, at what point did we sell our souls?

chas

PS: Diki, great to see you 'alive and kicking'. Hope you'll start to post more. A lot of us really enjoyed some of your reasoned dissertations. I have yet to hear you agree OR disagree with someone without a reasonable, logical, well thought out, argument to back it up. It would be nice to have a little intellectual stimulation here beyond 'who's gigging on New Years Eve?' (or 'OMB or DJ? ).

I'm with DIKI and Zuki on this one Chas. If you can play, I am going to listen. I don't care if it's an arranger. DJ's make me want to puke. They look pathetic IMHO. To me it is like they are saying, "I tried the Trumpet but I couldn't hack it so, I play recordings and BS the public." They (the public) think I'm a musician.' They (the public) are so stupid and drunk and doped up they will never figure it out."

I've said this before. I played with a steel guitar player that could improvise with anyone you can name on straight heads-up jazz. I mean real progressive jazz not "FUNK" only. He made his living playing CW.

Hell, I really, really enjoy listening to DonM do his guitar licks. This is no pun. He's the best at doing this and I can appreciate his talent for accomplishing this, and he does it on an "ARRANGER."

Man if some one can really do something and is exceptional at what he is doing, you have to appreciate it. If you can't, there's no doubt you're shallow. I mean really really shallow.

For example:
I have friends that do art and take 6 months to do what "Bob Ross" does in half an hour and most of the time in that half hour he's tapping and cleaning his brush to change colors. Also to add insult to injury, he can do more with his putty knife on the canvas in 10 seconds than my friends can do with a paint brush in 6 months. They adamantly claim that he is not an artist. You can see the redness and jealousy in their faces when I mention his name.

Some folks got it and some folks don't. Most people will never will be able to do what Dexter Gordon could do if they played sax for 20,000 years, and avoid eating and sleeping and just practice all day. He had it and they never will.

Some of us can sleep all day without even trying. I can't stay in the bed for more than 6-8 hours tops. Some of us have it and most of us don't.
I'm not prejudiced I hate every body.

I agree with some of what Chas and Diki said, but obviously not everything. In my case, I began traveling down my musical road as a rhythm guitar player and singer. I was content to sit in a smoke-filled bar on a stool with my acoustic guitar, Shure mic and a old tube amp singing to drunks that wanted to hear country and 50s rock music. Back then I always thought it was neat to get hit on by good-looking young gals because you were the "star" up there singing their favorite, country love songs.

When Roland came out with a programmable drum machine I was elated. Now I had a drummer, one that could keep perfect time, didn't show up late for the jobs and I didn't have to pay him a dime. The initial cost was about what I was making for two nights of playing, $150. For the next couple years I was king of the hill and booked more jobs than I should have.

It wasn't too many years after that when I was approached by a fellow musician that suggested we get together and form a Doo-Wap band, couple guitar players, drummer, sax player, etc... The band was a blast, we booked lots of jobs, the money was lousy, though. The band remained together for about 5 years, then one day it was all over, I was back in the bars with a guitar, singing to the drunks and sucking cigarette smoke into my lungs. The money was better, but other than switching to a 12-string guitar, I went full circle.

When the local music store got it's first shipment of arranger keyboards I happened to be there buying some new guitar strings. The store's owner, who is among my best friends, said "Take a look at this thing, will you." He was an ex nite-club entertainer who played piano with some the top musicians in this area. He made that arranger really sound great. Back then it was nothing more than an electronic drum machine with a half-dozen right hand voices, the best of which was a cheesy sounding piano. I decided to wait until the next generation came along before taking the plunge. And, I really didn't want to give up my guitars.

When Yamaha came out with the PSR-500 I had to have one. There was a guy performing at the Red Fox Restaurant in Bel Air, MD with one and after watching his performance I knew it was something that I wanted to explore in depth. Two weeks later I purchased the keyboard, and after a year of exploring all the possibilities it had to offer, I ventured out to the same, smoke-filled bars where I played guitar and sang and gradually made the transition to an arranger keyboard. Believe me I was scared to death, but the audiences loved it. From that point on I never looked back.

To me, an arranger keyboard is just another instrument. It's a wonderful instrument that allows you to perform any way you want. It can be used as a drum machine while you play guitar, a piano, or any other, single instrument. And, while most of the onboard styles are based upon specific songs, they are generic enough that they can be applied to a multitude of songs.

I'm not remotely close to the musicianship of many of the forum members, and I'll be the first to admit it. I only know three of the four chords Don Mason knows, and I'm not sure about them. My saving grace has always been my vocals, which some may say are outdated because I don't sing like the youngsters on American Idol, etc... I sincerely believe that Diki is right on the money when he stated "Turn OFF most of what the arranger can do, strip it down to just the drums, maybe the bass line, and play your little brains out over that, and I think the arranger holds itself up pretty well." In my case, though, I sing my little brains out.

Cheers,

Gary

[quote=travlin'easy." In my case, though, I sing my little brains out.

Cheers,

Gary [/quote]


That's nice Gary

That I'M familiar with? lol

Okay, that WAS a slight. Sorry.

chas


PS: You know how I hate it when someone disagrees with me .

From music to politics...economics to religion, Chas and I are generally joined at the hip.

Here, there's a slight bump. As a traditional jazz player, he never uses an arranger for performance. I'm a generalist (a music sell-out/whore, in many ways). While I really want to play jazz all the time, I'm really not into starvation.

Occasionally, I do use arrangers for performance. Last week overseas, I used the Korg Micro, I bought to travel with and write film score roughs for a last minute cocktail party.

Mostly, I use them for film score roughs and, occasionally, when there is no budget, for a completed small score or jingle.

There are few arranger players around Lexington and the ones
I know are really lame.

I think they (arrangers) are valuable for use as tools, but it's unwise to use them as crutches.

Thankfully, my jobs really vary. In September, for instance, I'm revising "Faux Diddley", my alter ego, complete with pork pie hat, motor scooter (gonna drive it onto the stage)and rectangular shapped Gretsch Diddley style guitar. Will be a 4 night series with an area philharmonic (I've done it twice before).

I mean, think of it! He's my hero...8 million selling hits, all in the key of "E"...no changes...all about his D***!

He's my hero LOL!


Be well, folks,


Russ

I thought that's what most arranger users did??? The guys who play outside the bedroom I mean..We all know it's not a band behind us so we do the MOST we can to play as MUCH as we can live...I agree with you Diki, and for the 25% of the time I use a style on an arranger, all I have running is mostly drums and bass... and sometimes only drums!!

EXACTLY!



If it's that beautifully restored blue Cushman, you'd better not let anything happen to it or I'm holding you personally responsible .

Glad you got back safely.

chas

I'm not sure what the topic is on this post...it seems to change like all our post


But I like to state what has been said many times already

The "arranger" keyboard is a "tool"...Like any tool, there are different skill levels ..to using the tool....also the finish product will be different with each user...

This being said....the "Arranger" keyboard is the "best" modern day keyboard available...period..It wears many hats..and will do more jobs, in different ways than any other type of keyboard...

This is why I chose an Arranger workstation in the first place..What other instrument can give you quick selections to sounds, layered or split, sounds that can be controlled with touch....Virtually the best drum machine you can find, built in to your keyboard...Most with great sequencers, when you need to write..or rework another file...
Sounds that are top knotch..that match any other source available...
Mic inputs with effects, that are easy to manage ..right in front of you...same with EQ and all mixing...
Most have a harmonizer that when used properly can add a dimension to certain songs...that really sound good...

And all your setting up , with your favorite sounds , effects , mic settings etc.....can be saved for future recall...

How could you not want a keyboard like this for your go to instrument?

It is not just about the "auto" stuff....there is not a better tool, for playing "live"...if it be left hand bass and piano, with a great drum machine (built in)...or the "arranger" bass line, for folks that can't play bass...or want to play two hand piano with the developed bass and drums from the keyboard...

The large selection of drum patterns and sounds, again the best you can find on any keyboard...

If the keyboards I have now are the last I will ever buy...I would still be a happy camper...I know they are great...and I for one think there will be a market fot these keyboards for a long long time...

The problem...most of today's players have to stop walking around with their noses up in the air....the arranger keyboard is too misunderstood....and many so called "Pros" are missing the boat..to how flexible an instrument they are passing on..

It is not the early 80's with toyish Casio and Yamaha entry models...Todays models are real instruments that can be used by "pros"....

PS: I thought I better use some happy faces to soften the effect...

Well said, Fran.

Gary

C'mon Russ....you have always said you are a musician, not an entertainer.
But now we hear you are making a grand entrance as "Faux Diddley", hat, guitar and all. Sounds like something an entertainer would do.

Break a leg...in a good sense

Eddie

Actually, Eddie, I DO enjoy a few alter ego's I developed. Another is Country Performer Johnnie Master card.

See, I played an after hours gig, where the 9:00 12"00 country band upstairs, run by a long-time buddy would at first, ask me to sit in; then be a regular. Jerry was a kick-ass drummer, and I would gladly do anything he asked.

Regulars asked me to do more feature tunes. I knew there was a Johnny Paycheck, Johnny Cash, Johnny Dollar...so I reasoned that money was a cool element of my persona.


I got a bright metallic blue shirt with Porter Waggoner decorations and a huge foam cowboy hat. I played a telecaster, to which I stuck Mastercard stickers.

I hid behind a curtain and, when introduced, did the Chuck Berry duckwalk across the stage yelling "Charge"!

The regulars thought I was making fun of country music. IMAGINE THAT!

Then, I used to participate some live Steve Allen television skits, including "Chicken man"! (What a brilliant dude).

Sorry for the OT trip...

LOVE MY ARRANGERS FOR WHAT I USE THEM FOR!
(And, if I had to, I'd opt for the (UGH!) DJ)!


Russ (Faux Diddley) Lay

Russ,


The last film score you wrote was "GONE WITH THE WIND"

Cheers Russ

Tony, hurts me to say it, but the last film score I wrote was called:

"The Effects of Poor Oral Care on Nursing Home Patients"


Pretty sad, huh?


Russ

Hells Russ,

Thats a mouth full....

Mouthfull? VERY FUNNY, Tony. Actually, lack of oral healthcare in US nursing homes is a major problem. Bad oral care is responsible for all kinds of illness, including Pneumonia and certain kinds of heart failure.


Boring title of the film, but a cause very dear to me.


Russ

have a listen to this performance Chas . You may like it. Everything you hear could be reproducd and played in arranger style on an arranger right now.

I dont know about you but i would certainly pay to hear this even if the beutiful singer was not singing and the fact it was played on an arranger or a main stream keyboard would not trouble me in the slightest because the skill of the musician is what shines through.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWtMIBiU5eE&feature=plcp

One of my favorite tunes Spalding, but I have to be honest and say I didn't care for that performance. The young lady sounded like a Chaka Kahn wannabe, the vocal harmony seemed totally inappropriate where and how used, and the accompaniment was drum heavy and the piano licks seemed oh so contrived. I'd give the concept a B and the execution a D+. Of course, this is only MY opinion. BTW, what part was the arranger?

chas

JMHO
I admit to using SMF for SOME songs - Lord knows I screwed up ROYALLY in presenting one a short time ago -

I LOVE to hear LIVE musicians PLAYING instruments, be it as a soloist, in a small combo, in a full band, with or without vocals ... If you have TALENT I want to hear it.

I think there is a BIG difference between someone who PLAYS an arranger, and someone who ONLY plays/sings to backing tracks.

I fail to see the reasoning behind criticizing an arranger player solely because the person is playing an arranger.
In today's world, there are countless of excellent musicians sitting home because there is only a limited amount of work to be had. So, who gets the work? - the arranger player, because if necessary, he/she can fill the room with the sound of a full band, OR, if the situation warrants play as a duo or trio.

chas, you say that when you hear a 'soloist' you are hearing what comes out of that person's head, not someone else's ... does that mean you do not listen to a vocalist or a featured soloist with a live band behind them because what the band is playing may have come out of the head of the individual who "arranged" the band part, and not out of the head of the soloist?

Many of the people on this forum are hard working musicians whose only source of income is through 'entertaining' others while using an 'arranger keyboard'. To lump ALL arranger players as " modestly talented amateurs who lack either the time, the will, or the talent, to learn a 'real' instrument and who demand to sound good with the least possible effort" is just WRONG. Many of the players on this forum have gone to arrangers only to continue their livelihood. Is there something wrong in that?

I have seen some DJs who can REALLY make an affair a PARTY!!! But I have also seen DJs who make it seem like I am listening to a radio.

As for whether I would pick a OMB or a DJ? I would audition BOTH and pick based on TALENT!!!
I would rather see and hear a musician using his/her talent, rather than have someone 'spin' someone's records ...

JMHO


PS chas, if I did not understand your position on this, or misinterpreted what you were saying, feel free to correct me ...

Tony, if you go back and read my post, what I said was that this is the TARGET GROUP of the manufacturers. Many arranger players are fine musicians but they were fine musicians long before they took up the arranger. Even so, I'd still prefer to hear them on their original instrument (even if it's an accordion ).

Ok, I lied. I'd rather hear the arranger.



chas

I can play "real" instruments, including guitar, drums, trumpet, bass and organ. I CHOOSE to play arrangers instead. Don't really care what anybody thinks about it except the people who pay to come hear me.
At times I reluctantly play MP3s for the eleven girls at every wedding reception that want to line dance. That's when I usually take a break and go pee.
DonM

I think the point of posts such as this one is to stimulate discussion, not hostility. There's no law that says we all have to agree on everything (except for Gary's speedy recovery). I guess the original question is not very clear. It could be anything from 'which would you hire to do a wedding' to 'who is the more legitimate musician'. Depends on the venue, depends on your taste in music, depends on way too many variables to say anything definitively. Therefore, the only value to a post like this is mainly social interaction. That being the case, why not keep it friendly.

chas

Oh No- not more accordion jokes...

Hi chas . I said that the performance i pointed to could easily have been produced on any arranger and whether it had or hadnt i would still pay to go hear the talented musician ship that is clearly on display. Fair enough if its not you type of music.

I would definately pay to hear that. but you i suspect you have some years on me in that respect !! Will try an find a older....much older styled example fo you ha ha !!

just playing with you sir.

why explain to anyone ...... after 40+ years of performing I could care less what anyone here thinks of how and why I do it..... most only wish they could make a FULL time living playing music.....I feel blessed that I can...end of story.

Signed a proud Pro Musician, Singer, DJ, KJ.

Great point Donny, no doubt about it and this comes from a frustrated musician who knows he could have never made a living full time in music. Some got it and some don't. I do make a good living but I'm knocking myself silly with the daily commute to metro Boston each day, I'm in the car about 2.5 hours for a 110 mile round trip commute.........and leave the house at 5:30 AM..... then get home at 5 PM. I do like my work and when things go right like they happen to be right now it's not like work.............. nevertheless when you're blessed with enough musical talent to make a living out of it and be able to play golf or fish or whatever your past time is, that's hard to beat. God bless those that can and do so.

I love jazz and would like to play it even more, but I can't so I stick to an arranger and just have some fun and play a few gigs here and there.

Good post Steve... like anything else your HAVE TO WORK HARD for what your dream is ... and since I added the versatility of DJ'ing services to my live performing services things are getting diversely more profitable in many ways as many DJ gigs bring 3x-4x more,........
good luck to you buddy!

I didn't mean for my post to sound hostile, just explaining that I like what I do for a living, and the way I do it, at least most of the time, and very few people can say that!
Time to warm up for my tee time. Shouldn't be too hard as the the temperature will reach 100 this afternoon.
I have to play golf because it's too hot to fish.
DonM

Me neither, and I don't think it did, but then we never know how the 'typed' word is going to be interpreted ...




As to who I would hire for a wedding, it would depend on the audience ... If I at age 71 were getting re-married OR celebrating my 50th wedding anniversary as we will next year, I would be well satisfied with a duo or trio that would be able to perform the type of music WE like - some light jazz and bossa novas during cocktails, some of the same and standards from the Great American Song book during dinner, some dance music from the 50s through the 80s after dinner ... and I KNOW a group that could do that ...
I also know that there are arranger players on this forum who could do this ... perhaps using some backing tracks for some of the dance stuff, but they would do a very fine job ...
If someone in their 30s is getting married, they will opt for a DJ because everything HAS to sound like the record, so why not play the record ... ...
Of course in the greater NY area you can find 8 to 10 piece BANDS that can actually do this, but you are going to pay upwards of $10,000 for the night ...

As for who is the more legitimate musician, IMHO, I don't consider a DJ a musician ... now he/she MAY be one - like Donny - but while spinning records or whatever, I don't think so ...

So once, again, due to my age, background, personal tastes, etc., for ME it would be live music - even if backing tracks are ADDED - over DJ 99% of the time ...

Some people like the subtle taste of Vanilla, some like the 'wildness of Rocky Road ... ME? ... I'm somewhere in the Butter Pecan/Pistachio area ...

Now if I am going out for a night of listening to music, my first choice is going to be live jazz ... but I would NOT walk out on a performer playing and singing with an arranger ... after all, that's what I do ... and enough people have told me they really enjoy it ...

I am starting to see some fairly major jazz (or at least smooth jazz) artists occasionally playing to tracks, and many of their albums, while not necessarily in the abyss of stock arranger use, don't honestly sound like they sat down with a bunch of real musicians and jammed...

I think we beat ourselves up too much about 'arranger vs. musician' polemics. You do what you WANT to do, either economically, artistically, or, as in the case of some of the smooth jazzers (who could put a real band together if they really WANTED to have the extra expense), both! And what you want to do is influenced by many factors. Some of which involve putting meat on the table, or not playing to empty rooms.

So you take what YOU would prefer, and then figure out if you can afford to do it! If not, you end up doing some things that, if you were Oscar Peterson and had an unlimited budget paid for by your record company, you might NOT. Big deal. This is the real world.

But... when we come to a site like this, for MUSICIANS that use arrangers, we spend way too much of our time defending our compromises, instead of concentrating on MUSIC, musicianship, and co-operative help and self-help, criticism (yes, there's a place for it in a sequestered venue like this... we aren't out in public airing our dirty laundry!). I can assure you, most forums for synth players spend virtually NO TIME AT ALL discussing how many gigs they did that week or whether they DJ'd at it to make sure they got the gig they wouldn't have if it was only down to their playing.

Somehow, all these guys want to talk about is synths, and how to use them, mod them, improve them, show of a trick they learned, discuss how some of the chart toppers used this synth or that synth, etc.. Why do only we beat ourselves up about what you have to do to make money, on a forum that ISN'T the 'Professional NH Performer' forum, or the "Dept. Store Background Musician' forum or the 'Pizza Hut Performer' forum?

I'd be a lot happier here if WORK wasn't discussed AT ALL. It seems to be so divisive, and honestly doesn't have a lot to do with music. Compromise is the center of any performing arts scene. Everyone from Mozart to Nat King Cole to Madonna have made compromises between what they would have PREFERRED to do and what they needed to do for their careers. And anyone that is saying otherwise here isn't really making a living playing music. Probably they are retired, have other jobs, whatever...

Let's just stick to music...

I know a builder in my neighborhood that has been building crappy houses for 40 years. Few are still standing and the ones that are I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. But he's made a decent living at it so I guess you'd have to call him a 'Pro'.

Whenever someone ends a post in what is supposed to be an open discussion with "end of story", that tells me that they are not interested in anyone's opinion but their own and that their view on the subject is the one and only gospel. Donny, trust me on this; not everybody wishes they were you. Nor do most regret choosing the path they did instead of being a full-time musician/entertainer. You seem to be trying very hard to defend something that doesn't need defending. As with EVERYONE, your life choices are valid for you.

I know that the wording of your post is meant largely to reflect how you feel about me on a personal level, just as I know there will always be one or two of your followers standing by ready to 'amen' it. That's okay. Just means that there are some people out there that share your values.

Some people believe that the word 'Pro' means someone that's making a (sole source) living in a profession. Others think of a 'Pro' as someone with a certain level of expertise in a given profession or who have been licensed or certificated by the government. But even among acknowledged 'Pros' such as doctors, lawyers, teachers, airline pilots, etc., there are still good ones and bad ones. Whether or not one is a 'Pro' musician depends upon the criteria used.

So back to the original question, OMB or DJ? ....but wait, haven't we already decided that that question, without additional qualifiers, cannot be answered. Have a nice day.

chas

One thing no-one has really discussed is, is just spinning some mp3's really 'DJ'ing'?

I mean, I rather doubt many here on this forum have gone out to a nightclub or rave where REAL 'DJ's' do their thing. The best of them, like the best musicians, are capable of pulling something out of their equipment lesser performers can't find. Not ALL of them simply download other DJ's mixes and mashups. Some of them are as creative and technical as any of us.

But it seems like anyone that wants to sit behind a laptop and program the order of what their iTunes program plays next wants to call themselves a DJ...

That's pretty much like a One Finger Chord, out of time one finger melody arranger player calling themselves a 'musician'. I suppose, in the MOST broad definition of the word, they are. But no musician would agree with them

And no REAL DJ will ever admit that running an iPod on break is DJ'ing.

Hire a REAL DJ for that wedding, chas. Don't settle for any old kid with a laptop and some speakers and lights! What you see isn't necessarily what you get!

Wow diki and Chas must be lonely .....I see they are back with
vengence.......its on baby again.....lol

I don't think there is anything "ON" but open discussion ... IF that's what we want ...

That's certainly what I want, Tony......and thanks for speaking up.....sanely.

chas

DonM,
I thought you were a real musician. You mention all the musical instruments you play. Man any real musician knows that drummers are not musicians and drums are not an instrument. They're a set of noise makers.
Shame on you!!

A hunter in the jungle kept complaining about the drums going day and night without let up. The guide kept telling him that the drums were good. The guide told him that when the drums stopped it was bad.

After a couple of weeks the drums stopped, and the hunter asked the guide with a sound of fear in his voice, "What now?"
The guide says, "Bass solo.?

It's an old joke ... but it always makes me laugh

So,

Taike messaged me and reminded me of a post I made back in 2010...not much changes 'round these parts does it:)


"by Tonewheeldude:
I holded off posting to see what you guys thought. And its the same reaction here as everywhere else. For some reason musicians have a lack of respect for D.J's. Maybe its because the 80s and 90s saw musicians being pushed out of WMC and function rooms in favour of more up to date sound and light shows by some guy with a turntable or two, a volvo estate and 4 lights who would do the gig for half the money.

But the truth is many DJs these days are at an advanced level where they not only out shine a guy with an arranger keyboard, they are being truly creative. There is so much more to a DJ than playing and merging tracks. Some have a library of loops and effects to help with their task, they not only skilfully merge tracks, but remix, loop, add samples, voice over and work the audience all in real time. And then there are studio DJ's who take a piece of original material, dissamble and remix into something completely original.

The question is really - are D.J's artists? and should they be respected as such?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uegxzljHu1I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drGUsHAFLEA

As it happens I don't know any DJ that would call himself a musician, however they do want to be respect as artists. By the way, the myth that musicians union is not for DJ's is untrue.
[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude]"

Here is a list of the highest paid DJ's.

http://www.thisisvibes.com/news/30-highest-paid-djs-in-the-world-416/

Couldn't locate a list of highest paid arranger players.

Just sayin'

chas

We are a very PRIVATE bunch !!!

Chas,

Can you imagine how much BullS**T a DJ has to invent to make $65 million. Think Rush Limbaugh for example. At least he gets all the help he needs by getting up early in the morning and reading from the 2 dozen or so newspapers that he says he reads every day. Man this is a lot of help for him.

Where do you suppose the DJ's get their help. WOW I guess they are just born with the BS. Like I keep saying "Some got it and some don't."

I wonder if you're making a thousand million in you life time, if you could wind up with more needle marks in your arm than Howard Hughes?

Donny, I hadn't a clue that you could be making a million+ a year. Couldn't you just loan me a few thousand to get my HOT DOG CART? I could make $100 profit a day they tell me.

Man I want a Hot Dog CART bad. I'm down to begging one of my best friends on the forum for money. What is this world coming to. I mean how low am I going to go? WOW, I'm glad my wife doesn't even know how to turn the computer on, Gary can you imagine Penny reading this post? WOW

First, BOO, I'm REALLY glad you are back....hilarious stuff!

Speaking of entertainers, I think you've missed your calling...BIG TIME! (At least, Saturday Night Live could use you as a head writer).

On this installment of the "musician (purity and skill are the only significant factors) vs. entertainer" (play tin cans...whatever, to get over) fiasco, I think it comes down to primary focus.


The worst entertainers (me, by a long shot) concentrate on what they can do....practice...practice...practice. They get better...so good that they play themselves out of a job. They work for nothing. They become resentful of the success of the "bubble gum" players, who they think have sold out and play crap, often using tricks to hide lack of talent. Or, they "sell out". To a certain extent, I've done that, and I'm not proud of it. But the "bread" is so good, I just hide my head on the way to the bank.

Likewise the entertainer concentrates on the entertainment aspect and, in my mind, at least, does not try, or puts musicianship on a back burner. I have to remind myself that
it is that individuals choice (or maybe, the limit of their skills).

Because of their choices, each claims that they made the only true choice. Musicians look down on the folks who use "gimmicks" and entertainers say the purist is a dying breed who is destined to starvation.

I'm guilty of position number 1. I think that some of the "entertainers" here are pretty lame in the musicianship area. Maybe it's just that they concentrate completely on the "show" and think that being able to play is unimportant. Or, maybe they can really play and simply believe it's not worth the effort.

Whatever. I'm thinking we'll never agree on the fundamental issues. I'll NEVER use a chicken hat, MP 3's or sequences of any kind. Donny and others will think I'm out of my mind and destined to starvation (believe me, one look at the waistline and you'll know that ain't happening anytime soon).

My choice is the right one for ME and me ONLY. Donny's choice is right for him.

But, we can still enjoy our time here, talking about tunes, equipment, gigs, etc.

I'd jump on his bandstand in a heartbeat. I LOVE to back others, and spent 15 years backing one of the best and funniest entertainers in this area.

I wouldn't (and couldn't) do what my partner Preston did, but, playing off of him as straight man, I had a ball.

Next year, this same argument will come up. I'll be "locked at the hip" with Chas and Diki. Donny and others will be in the opposite corner. BOO will be circling in the ozone somewhere, breaking both sides up (actually, he's a GREAT musician and I welcome him on "our" side).

And, you know what? If we stay courteous, it will be a HEALTHY dialogue, addressing fundamental issues relative to the music business.

The best thing is to define where we are on the spectrum, and make the best of it. That means that purists starve and pure entertainers sometimes show their A****. We're ALL somewhere in the middle of this spectrum. The trick is to make the most of our choices. And, there are compromises for everyone, regardless of your position on the "grid".

Keep up the commitments, all. State your beliefs when the subject comes up (and, believe me, it WILL), but do it with
courtesy and kindness.

After all this time, we owe it to each other, don't you think?

Best to all,


Russ (group hug) Lay

Wow!!!!!!!! Can someone publish a list of the VIP's that these two guy's DJ weddings for to make this kind of money.

02: Paul Oakenfold Net Worth – $55 million
01: DJ Tiesto Net Worth – $65 million

Rush Limbaugh makes this much money a year. I wonder what his net worth is eh? And he can't even play a comb and tissue paper let alone have the experience, knowledge and expertise to play MP3's for weddings. Ha ha!

Man if I were a DJ making this kind of money, I could find some place else to spend my time than on this forum with a bunch of under worked poverty stricken wanna be famous arranger keyboard players. LOL

If these guy's are making this money doing weddings, stealing money from us arranger players, I'll kiss your A$$ on Broadway in the middle of the day night or whenever and give you a week to draw a crowd. Ha ha!

Man can you believe how naive a person has to be to think these guys make this money playing MP3's at weddings. This is funnier than, Laurel, Hardy, Martin, Lewis, Abbott and Costello all put together.

I'm having a great time with this one!!!! Can ya'll tell?

chas ... are these the people YOU are going to hire for a wedding or other type of affair?!? ...

Just askin' ...

I found it interesting that all the names I 'googled' were from England or continental Europe ... don't know what that means, but ...

Let's be REAL ... when we - no, let me make that I (don't want to speak for anyone else) talk about "musicians" vs "DJs", I am talking about the guys some people here compete with for gigs ... I am not talking about guys who DJ in big city 'dance clubs' where you have to be one of the "INS" or know the bouncer to get in ... The guys in the big clubs are professionals who have honed their craft ... it might not be for me, but they know what they are doing ...

I STILL want a live band !!!

BTW ... can someone tell me just what a DJ does to command $500,000 a show ?!?!?!?

Tony,

I can't believe you haven't heard, "there's a sucker born every minute." Ha ha!

What about "A fool and his money are soon parted."

Does either of these ring a bell and sound like Casino people? I used to pay my rent and make my car payments off of nine ball just at the local bars in New Orleans!

Does either statement bring to mind the saying that "there are people who have more money than brains."

I don't think that they are so stupid as to pay a DJ $500,000 to play a Nursing Home, (I mean a wedding), it's just a simple fact,
"THERE REALLY ARE PEOPLE WITH MORE MONEY THAN BRAINS.

All this stuff about DJ's, KJ's, musicians makes not a jot of difference to me. I really don't care what anyone's making - if they're pulling tons of cash no matter what they do, well, good for them. It really makes no difference to me. I do what I do four or five times a week, get paid the going rate, live well, and I'm happy. I don't need any more than that. It's simple, really.

124 hooray!! Clap,clap clap, applause, applause. You're right on! I don't see how it can be any simpler than that.

I'm just trying to have fun. I don't have anything to do util I get my Hot Dog Cart.

Now if I had a sailboat like Gary, I could find something to do. Ha ha!

Boo! I got just the right job for you here in Florida. It's a hot dog cart on a boat that sits on the water just outside a marina. No joke. I don't know if they do it in the summer off-season...but during the fall and winter season you can't believe all the boaters that pull up along side and order their dogs, chips and a soft drink. Disclaimer: the vendor is a gorgeous blonde in a brief bikini.
Eddie

Eddie with me it'd be all the old chicks stopping because of my blue eyes. I heard my wife tell her friend one day that if it weren't for my blue eyes, I would'n have had a chance.

Of course I'd need to be set up near the retirement centers. I heard that in Florida you have to be over fifty to live there is that true?,

Eddie, don't retire from computers yet, eh? Wait until I die OK?

Kind of begs the question, if you could care less what anyone here thinks, why come here? Oh yes...

Don't make me play this game ... cos I guarantee I will always win