OK, Now this is NOT a mine is better than yours.
I have head comments that the Yamaha Tyros OS is NOT good for live performance.

For those that feel this way I would like to hear specifics about this...please.

Thanks,
Lee S.

Now I wonder, who on earth would think that? I've been playing Tyros 1, 2, and now Tyros 4, in live performance, for many years, and think the Tyros user friendly OS idea for this. Great sounds, styles, registration memory feature, and ease of navigation. On top of its user friendly Os navigation, Tyros 4's new improved vh2 and impressive live sounding drums plus impressively realistic SA voices make it a most terrrific arranger for my live performance needs.

I agree with Scott,
Tyros 4 for me is just incredible. T3 was good, but 4's voices are much better, drums - wow.
As for playing live, well. The registration button system I have always hated as i'm more of a live player and having everything set up on one button is a no no for me.
I tend to choose voices as im playing, so the multi-page menu's for me are a pain in the "ass".
However, for most who use the registration buttons, yes, this keyboard will be easy to use.

I have to say at this point, i wouldnt trade my T4 in for anything on the market now - NEVER! I love it.

I find no problems with the Tyros4 for live performance, especially since the Music Finder system has been improved. I use mfd in conjunction with registrations and it's seamless for live play. I will comment though, that it's hard to beat Korg's Songbook feature for live play. But the benefits and support for Yamaha arrangers outweigh using a Korg for Songbook.

Scott,
This is what was said on another site....

Here are some of my concerns - there are more
1. The ability to switch styles in the middle of a number and maintain tempo (i.e. no tempo lock)
2. The ability to select (ON/OFF) bass inversion during a song - you can do it with several button presses
3. Seeing the length of INTROs (countdown)
4. Being able to play one's own chord sequence for INTROs/ENDINGs
5. Having complete flexible control over FILLs and VARIATIONs - No control over fills - needs FILL buttons
6. Having STYLE part volumes and muting/unmuting available without switching screens.
7. Having AI fingering work for major chords by just playing one key (hasn't worked since Tyros 1 - despite its specification)
8. Screen page management is often a nightmare - would like a one-click-to-home-page or auto return.
9. Too many button hits to get the UPPER sounds ON/OFF and selected.
10. T3 vocal harmonizer is unusable - very poor quality - haven't actually bothered trying the T4's VH but I believe it is better.

One of Yamaha's answers to their OS shortfall is to use REGISTRATIONs - these are NUMBERS and cannot be easily selected unless you remember them all
Overall too many button presses to achieve useful performance features.
It seems that all they have focused on is SOUNDs which would be great if it was a sound module, but as for the "ARRANGER" component it just does not cut it for me
The Tyros, although very nice sounds, is far from a professional arranger.
If you are considering one, PLEASE borrow one and try it - set it up for a performance and you will see what I mean.

What does everyone think of these statements?

Thanks again,
Lee S.

I agree with the above comments, having used the Tyros 2, and Korg PA...

Dennis,
Is the superb performances by Telmo restrcted by the Tyros live playability?

What more could he need?

Am I missing something?

I don't get it?
Did you even watch some of his perfromances?

Lee S.

Hi Lee,

As I said, refer to those comments you posted here from those at the Korg forum...

I don't particularly care HOW someone else uses a keyboard. It's how I use it, and how I want it to run. ( I don't mean that in an nasty way, just, that's the way it is)

The Yamahas fall way behind on the live performance angle for me in much the same ways as they do for Pete and MR N+E

You asked for an opinion, I gave it thats all I can do m8.

Dennis

PS: Looking at your last post over at Korg, you would be well pleased with the new PA3x I am sure....If I can find a way, I will be buying one.

It will go really REALLY well with a new module to be released at MusikMesse. And if I cannot find way to buy a PA3x, then my PA2xPro will go really REALLY well with the new module being released at MusikMesse

I'm with Scott, Steve and Jazzhooves, although I haven't got a Tyros4 yet, I have a Tyros3, and have used Tyros2 and Tyros extensively.

Some people like Yamaha's OS better than the others...some don't...no big deal...buy what suits you.

I'm enjoying a PSR-S910 at 1/3 the cost of a Tyros, and it's OS is excellent for "live" performance.

To each his own...

Lee, many of these statements are just wrong. For example, there is a parameter to set the tempo to remain constant when switching styles. There is a one-key chord system, although it is proprietary.
You can play your own intros, endings; just start the style and play them! Play an ending and then hit simple ending one.
The fill system works well. The variation buttons all have their own dedicated fill patterns. If you press the variation you're on, it fills to self. If you press another variation button, it fills to that variation. You can also use intros and endings as fills.
Press exit button to return to main screen. If there are several screens active, press it several times. I can press it 3 times in about 1/2 second.
The T4 harmonizer is much improved and I hated the old one, but it was usable with some editing and setup precautions.
I don't have plans to get another Yamaha right away, but they do have many insightful features in the OS.
Regards,
DonM

Dennis,
All points well taken. I appreciate your opinions and comments.

I guess to me the SOUND is the most important thing.

When I listen to the performances on T3/T4 I seem to just feel I am listening more to a orchestra performace than the stuff I here on the Korg.
Maybe it's because most of the songs you hear on the Korg is Mid-Eastern? Or is it because the Korg is for a more 'modern' sound, more hip-hop, techno, dance etc??

At any rate, I will take plenty of time to hear the PA3 and the T4 before I would decide to do aything. Mean while I will sell my PA2 and use my MIDI kbd with PC to play using Live-styler.

I do have another question...why is most of the music I love to hear on you-tube etc done on Yamaha not Korg?

Lee S.

Lee, I am totally in line with your thinking. I have played the T4 pretty extensively. It is a great keyboard, but probably not for me at this time. I hated the PA800, mainly because of the operating system and lack of variety in styles to fit my type of music, but will certainly audition the 3x. So far, the little Roland Module has my attention the most.
Audya still leads my list of totl keyboards though.
DonM

Because there are more people who play that style of music that own a Yamaha??

I dunno m8....What style of music do you like to listen to?

For me the Yammies are too busy in the style department. The EP's are awful (and I see they still have that ghastly Galaxy EP!!!), and the main acoustic is not much better.

Of course all of these on the Motif are superb!!!!

On my Korg I tweak the styles I use to remove all but the bass and drums, and perhaps one guitar, or a brass part IF (and only if) it has a hook that is vital to the song I am playing.

I am trying to achieve the same sort of balance and sound I had in my four and three piece bands...Plus audiences get more of "the player" and less of the machine.

I also play both with both hands generating chords in full piano mode using the Expert setting.

And the Songbook is in a league ALL it's own...I know people fuss over the Yamaha MF, and registrations, but imagine those two in ONE package...that is what the songbook is all about. And it saves everything, and I mean EVERYTHING you have set up to play a song!!

I don't know if that gives you any more insights, but it's a few more reasons why I prefer the Korg to the Yammie.

Dennis

A quick way to get back to main screen if several screens are active, is to press Direct Access and then Exit.

Works the same on PSR.

Ian

The DA button is very powerful, particularly if you learn all the shortcuts available.
DonM

Still two button presses and not one

True...but it's never been an issue.

It might be for you...especially if you're slow.

I've played every Yamaha arranger keyboard up to the T3 and from my perspective they're excellent for live performances. My dead time between songs is essentially zero seconds. I can switch to any screen I need in the blink of an eye, and I can do this while performing a song. The secret to effectively using any brand of keyboard during liver performances is knowing the operating system--something that damned few people ever take the time to learn.

Cheers,

Gary

Nah, just a pita, especially when there are better ways... BIG

On a serious note, I always have all my setups, well, setup so that live I never need to go past the front page.

I have to be honest and say SOME of the Korg perf functions, like getting to the per part EQ's and some control and effect settings require just as many menu drops as the Yamaha.

When I re-scan that list (which I just did) there are probably not as many differences as I first thought...

I DO prefer the Korg Songbook, and I DO prefer 76 note keybed...so if I am allowed I would like to perhaps amend what I said.

As I really do not believe "personal preferences" should be a factor in how a 'board performs live when someone else is asking for this info, I will amend my comments to say that after a harder look at the differences outlined above, I would need to say there are less "real" or as significant, ones than I seemed to recall from my T2 time.

And the truth is not many of those actually apply. I rarely change the bass allocation DURING a song, I do not have any songs where I NEED to change the style mid-stream, I use full keyboard fingering and chord recognition, so anything one two or three fingered does not concern me.

Even the harmoniser is a "personal preference" thing too. (I prefer the TC)

So Lee, my apologies for giving you a bit of a bum-steer there.

I stand corrected.

Dennis

Dennis,
No problems M8...I appreciate all perspectives.

I guess when I watch and listen to the performances by Telmo a few times I hear some pretty darn beautiful music and it sure seems he has no issues performing it all live. I seem to hear the various voices blend together very nicely...maybe it's just me but I never quite felt that way abot the PA2, even thugh I think the Korg is super. But, a lot of it very well may be his performance setups too, so I'm no saying the Korg could not sound a good. Maybe it's just that the orchestral voices are better on the Yamaha??

My reason for this post in the first place was to find out from all of the gang here that do a lot of live play what I was missing on the feeling (comments of others)that the T4 was not so good in that mode.

I was confused because I have watched many, many performances on You-Tube of Yamaha T3/T4 in a live performance mode and I dd not see any issues.

Actually for all I love about the Korg OS...I did always think the arranger functions were smoother on the Yamaha, now on the PA3 I think that goes away with more fills and autofill.
I do believe that most that do not like the Korg OS have not spent the time to totally learn it as it is very capable.

I think I can live with either OS..neither being perfect to any one person....BUT it's the sound I am after.

Lee S.

Yep, ultimately thats the most important. I can only agree!!

And perhaps, in truth, that's the thing a lot of us forget about from time to time. And I include myself in that camp too!!

Dennis

This is a serious deficiency that should not be glossed over. I don't believe the Yamaha system is proprietary (or at least they have licensed it to other brands.) Korg, Roland, and Orla all have Yamaha-style simplified chord recognition as an option. Technics also used the Yamaha system in the past. However, if someone is used to the Korg / Roland / Ketron system for minor and 7th chords, when they switch to Yamaha they might as well be learning a different instrument!!

I agree with the original poster. If Yamaha is not willing or able to duplicate Roland's "Chord Intelligence" exactly, then at least in the "AI Fingered" mode a single note should be recognized as a major chord. Also, I agree that the "On Bass" functionality should have its own button on the panel. It could also be a function based on the MOMENTARY state of a control pedal. The Tyros series are well-integrated, and they can actually do MOST of the ten things in the list. But their simplified chord fingering is different, and a major barrier to someone switching from other brands.

Duly noted and agree. Since I never use one finger chords it has never been an issue for me, but I believe that if they use a simple system, it should at least be on a musically-correct basis, not "add a black note to the left" to get such-and-such.
The "other guys" use a C for a C chord, add a flatted third, Eb, for a minor and a Bb for a seventh. At least you could progress musically with this as a start.
DonM

I completely agree with this. Any simplified fingering system should allow the user to progress to a fuller system without relearning everything. To be honest, Yamaha's system confuses the heck out of me! By the time you have learned all the weird shortcuts, you could have learned most of the chords properly, anyway...

To be honest, I know some people like the rootless chord jazz feature, but once again it sort of bypasses a lot of options. What if you WANT the real chord you fingered, but the machine is determined to see it as a rootless jazz voicing? Is there a footpedal or button you can assign to jazz voicing on/off easily? That's about the only thing that could make it work for me.

On to the point of arranger shortcomings. They ALL have them. Anyone who says otherwise isn't working it hard enough! I also agree with the sound being the primary decision maker. Not even styles. A bit of work on a well designed arranger, and the styles are suddenly MUCH better, but few arrangers really offer the option to replace all the naff sounds with better ones. Not much you can do to change the overall SOUND of your arranger.

I often think that arranger selection is more an exercise in damage control than sheer love. What features can I do WITHOUT? They've ALL got something you could really use missing...

Diki,
Absolutely true IMHO.
A good example is when I was into buying/playing home organs..I went to the stores...spent many hours trying them, listening to demos..and found a HUGE difference in sound quality.
Some of the more well known brands really did not have the sound I liked. Wound up buying Thomas for many years..then Yamaha.
All because of sound...not features. I felt like it was my job o play it , and it was th MFG job to make the sounds.

Today we are super spoiled...my God, compared to a 1977 Yamaha organ we have tons of neat features in all arrangers.

So back to basics..If I play the new PA3 and it has the same sound problems as th PA2 had..no deal. It's got a lot to do with the music I enjoy...all instrumental no singing...so the sounds have to be top notch.
Then not sure if I will get T4 or wait for somehing new.
I will have to at that point really check te T4 for sounds quality.

Lee S.

I remember buying a Yamaha FS500 organ in the early 80's, thinking it would SURELY be the last instrument I ever needed or wanted. It did sound good and had many outstanding features. Only weighed 330 pounds, without the bench or leslie or dollie.
I think it listed for $16,000 BACK THEN.
All today's arrangers are tremendous bargains!
DonM

I feel that nowadays, pretty much everything that is sample based, whether it's arranger OR workstations, if you didn't like the SOUND of the previous incarnation of whatever you are looking at, you aren't going to like whatever is new. Probably at MOST, any new keyboard only has about 10-20% new samples, the rest is just rolled over from the previous model.

Synths are a somewhat different kettle of fish, as the voice architecture is what determines the overall sound, but once it is samples, especially of acoustic instruments, there's not a lot you can do to radically change them into something noticeably different AND better...

So if you disliked the previous Korg, Yamaha, Ketron, Roland, whatever, it is pretty much a given that you are going to feel probably the same about any new model. Maybe over a period of 10-15 years, you might see enough of a difference to change your mind about them, but from one model to the next?

Not going to happen, IMO...

Actually not quite true Diki.. You can replace any sound within any style on the PA2x using your own unique samples and sound patches if you want.

For example if I created a guitar sample that was a killer sound, I could use that in every factory style, and store it in one of the factory guitar patch locations. Then every factory style that accesses that slot would then use that patch.

Of course how good it would sound would depend on what the style had programmed as far as notes went, but I think you get the idea.

So it IS possible on the Korg OS.

In addition a user, if they so wish can over-write permanently EVERY factory sound patch and style... A bit ridiculous to actually do, but the Korg OS allows this.

The ONLY limitation is the amount of space Korg allow for user sound patches. You would certainly be limited to how many, but if they were really killer sounds a user possibly would not need that many.

Still, I do agree generally with your comment that they ALL have limitations, in this case it's the space allowed to add your own patches.

Dennis

And speaking of which, it was VERY disappointing to see the Sample RAM on the new PA3X, is still a max of 256MB...

128 Factory and 128 with the RIDICULOUSLY expensive EXB-M256!!!

Dennis

But Dennis, I think that, in most cases of people not liking the Korg 'sound' (or Yamaha, or anything), it boils down to a LOT more than just replacing the odd sound (which is all the RAM is big enough to do).

Plus, you have to factor in that there really isn't much OOTB in the way of samples for Korg arrangers, most of it involves a LOT of work to create a good set in the PA3. Sure, you can import samples, but you STILL have to do all the voice programming, and few arranger users are into that to the degree that you need to be to make a REALLY good sound. Even drum samples, which used to be the easiest thing to slap together, nowadays you are talking about multi-velocity cross-switches (which often import VERY strangely from Akai, for just one example) and exclusive groups (to cut one sound off with another, like hi-hats and cymbal chokes). Nothing the average arranger user is well prepared for, I expect.

Sure, if it's 'I wish it had a better oboe, then it would be perfect', the sampler is probably going to be of use. But I have a feeling that most people that say they don't like the Korg 'sound' need MUCH more than the RAM is capable of handling, even if they COULD do the work...

And yes, while Korg dole out RAM in such a manner, while Yamaha have GB's of FLASH RAM you can install, it's still 'catch-up' and trailing by a LONG margin. Korg either have to go for broke and make an end-run around Yamaha, or it's still just 'baby steps'...

Diki, yep, totally agree...

I wish I didn't agree , and there was something better, but as you say, it's what arranger users have to live with..

I hate to harp on it, but this is why I decided to keep my PA2X and wait for the MusikMesse launch. After that I think I will have the perfect setup. Especially as I consider the Korg to have the best(and most straightforward) MIDI routing facilities.

I will be able to use ANY sound I want in any style I want. I can use the PA style engine to drive AUDIO samples. I directly control full-on audio styles...

Man this is getting exciting...

Rather than wait for something that will never happen from the "biggies", I am simply adding ONE device to the setup. For me, this will then represent the ideal arranger workstation I have been hunting for for several years!!

Anyhoo before I get too carried away , yeah I agree with what you said there.

Dennis