Hi All,

I would like to clear up a matter of the Audya for once and for all. I have never ever said that the sounds or styles are anything but brilliant on the Audya and likewise the same goes for the PA2x. If you trawl back through my threads this is what you will find. The problem I have is I cannot find any significant difference and this must be borne out by the fact some other on SZ love PA2x and some love Audya, take away all the 2 x players, USB1 or 2 touch screen, close your eyes play both and yes there are difference in sounds tones etc there will be. My problem and will say it till blue in the face is where is the price difference. No one as yet come up with an answer. Could we open a sensible debate on where you think it is, I am lost and it is a lot of money. If someone was just to step up and say yes it is worth the extra £1700.00 they know why, they are the experts on this, now’s your chance. If I could see some gold plating on the Audya I would understand. I have the two side by side, please explain it away if you can!

Regards

#1. Korg is a much bigger company vs. Ketron.

#2. The PA2X is based off of the previous PA1X keyboard. There is zero physical difference between the two. The same metal case to make a PA2X is the same as PA1X. This cuts down on cost. Korg's technology is basically carried over from previous technology.

#3. Audya is a completely new development of their arranger product. Ketron being a small company incurs a higher cost of development.
If the made a SD2plsu to replace the SD1, than the cost would be cheaper.

#4. When the Audya was launched and introduced, it came at a time when the US Dollar and Euro was weak and probably is still weak.

#5.The keyboards do not sound the same.
For the people who choose Audya over Korg the price is not as objective. They'll pay more for the product that they feel is going to make them sound better.

Thanks for that, I wonder if the price of the Audya and Pa2x was the same what would happen, would people flock to buy Audya. Dan01 the cost of the Audya is almost twice as much as Pa2x, does what you have implied cover that, what about predictable number to be sold, that may come into the Ketron way of thinking also. I am not so certain it is so simple, maybe I am wrong, if ketron are just trying it on it's a big risk to take. Time will tell!

Regards

This make me wonder:

Since PA2X Pro, Tyros3, Audya or whatever arranger keyboard you want to buy cost
almost twice as much here in Norway as in other countries, are they twice as good
as the ones you buy other places in the world?

Cheers
GJ

I think Dan O1 is right. Just about anything made in Europe will cost more than a product made in Asia.

From what I've heard the styles on the Auyada completely trump those of any other arranger. The sounds don't. If the most realistic styles available to you matter, yes it's woth the extra dough. I'd love to have one. For now I can only dream.



[This message has been edited by montunoman (edited 03-03-2010).]

i will wait for my Ketron Module
it will have everything i need :-)
one can dream...

I agree 100% with Dan01, also if was to spend $3699 for the pa2x, I rather just put in the difference for the Audya, why? you ask? Simply because I find that the styles & sounds on the audya are just that much better than the Korg, hands down by far! so you ask again why? it all comes down to people's wants and tastes and what they are willing to pay for a product.

How on earth can anybody quantify the exact monetary difference between a PA2x and an Audya? To even ask is patently dumb (IMO - and the rest of the world's). Nor are the members of SZ obligated to justify for you why you paid L1700.00 more for the Ketron. As far as we're concerned, you paid the asking price because you wanted it. If you feel you were duped by the salesperson, then you should be griping to him, not us. Maybe he can tell you where the 1700.00 went (hopefully, in his pocket). Perfecting the English a bit does not change the fact that this is still just another 'bitch' thread against Ketron. For the entire time that I have been on SZ, I have yet to hear anyone complain about what they paid for a Keyboard. If you couldn't afford it, you shouldn't have bought it in the first place. Caveat emptor.

chas

Everyone knows my issues with the Audya. But I have said, since the first factory demos I heard, that this arranger breaks new ground in realism and live-ness of sound. However, that realism comes at a price (literally!)

Audio styles really ARE 'real'. You can't GET any more real than that!

The price you pay, though, is that the technology to play them is far greater than what is needed for a MIDI style, they can't be edited in any way (at least the audio parts), and that they are VERY expensive, by comparison to MIDI styles, to produce. Ketron have their loyal fan base, with a strong emphasis on Latin musics, and here you will find the Audya to be head and shoulders above the rest.

But EACH arranger has its' own areas of strength and weakness in the styles made for them. Korg excel at smooth jazz. Yamaha have got guitar driven styles down cold. I like Roland's rock stuff and ballads, Technics had the bigband thing nailed...

And, in all fairness, I think a LOT of each of our personal preferences and choices with our arrangers boils down in a very large part due to this. What kind of music do we like (or need to perform) best? What arranger's ROM styles is the best at that particular music..? I bet 75%+ of us make our purchasing decision with that as the primary reason, even if we don't KNOW that's what's pushing us in that direction...

So.... to compare one arranger to another is kind of futile. Each of them has something that makes them stand out head and shoulders above the rest. And NONE of them have ALL the bases covered.

If I were in Tony's shoes, despite the ups and downs (were there any ups? ) of the last few months, I would still consider myself lucky to have what is pretty unarguably one of the most live sounding, vibrantly styled arrangers available. And I would be VERY hard pressed to make a decision between it and a Korg (those three paltry fills is still a major strike against it, IMO). But it appears you still have BOTH. What is the problem? I would DIE to have both of those in my studio! They are sufficiently different to not be redundant, IMO.

In a world of hunger, some sit at a table groaning with food, and complain that their favorite dish is missing...

Chas...forget this topic..

Did you get the 1204's?

Well, what do you think?

Montunoman, from your post it looks like you think the Audya is made in Europe and the Korg in Japan? They are both made in Italy.
I differ with Dan O with one of his points. Throughout all the years I've sold Solton and then Ketron products I've asked the owners of the company from Italy to lower their prices once the product has been on the market for several years. This has never happened. I have asked them to get competitive with other similar products and there has always been the same reply. I do agree with Dan about the company being small and costing more to be in business but I also think the market share could be bigger if they would stay competitive when the market conditions demand it. In these recessionary times I'm not selling nearly as many high end arrangers as keybaords under $1,600.00 and Ketron isn't even a player at this price point and lower. For that reason I am pleased to see Korg and Yamaha continue to improve their entry to mid level products and especially Korg who has recently looked at the market and lower the price of some of their PA products (PA500 and PA500oriental).


------------------
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566 www.kayesmusicscene.com

[This message has been edited by George Kaye (edited 03-03-2010).]

Fran... have you ever seen the 'New Topic' button on the main forum page?

Or do we all have a new program of hijacking every Ketron thread (like they have hijacked many themselves) until they get the point and just go away? Not a bad plan, but maybe we should have started six weeks ago?

Maybe we should wait and see. I have a feeling that Tony's blood just came down slightly off the boil (though it is still simmering ), and perhaps some reasonableness might be starting to return to SZ...

I'm still waiting for someone locally to buy a pair of Podium's so I can LISTEN to them. I don't want to be bothered with ordering, auditioning, then returning anything. Podium need to move away from online sales and get some out to the DEALERS...

Fair enough?

I already did, but it was largely ignored.

If you can't hear (for example) the difference between the regular tich..tich..tich of a midi cymbal and the subtle changes of the real thing its all a little pointless going into details.

Some people can't hear the difference between an old Korg BX3 and a real Hammond B3. There is no point in trying to convince those people which one is the best. If you can't hear it you can't..its not your fault.

TWD



[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 03-03-2010).]

Yo Fran. Haven't gotten around to it yet. I'll go for the two speaker thingy at 419.99. Seems to be the same speaker and I can use the savings to buy a pair of speaker stands. Diki, time to come up for a visit after the Podiums arrive. You can check out the Nord, 802's, 1204's, Edirol mixer, Traynor K4, Fantom G7, all at the same time. Now, back to the topic. Where did the 1700.00 go? I'd guess, for a bottle of fine Italian wine, an Armani suit, and a 'thank you' note addressed to Tony from Ketron.



chas

I agree with Dan01 - very well put.

To be picky though, Point #2 isn't strictly true as there IS a Physical difference between the PA1X and the PA2X (a matter of some centimetres shorter and 1-2 Kilos lighter, and I believe there is Differing Materials used - a wood grain finish etc) but no doubt Ketron is a Company that needs to charge more because of the other reasons already outlined by Dan....

To me, I'd count myself lucky to own either one too!

Are you complaining or BOASTING in this thread Tony? lol

It's strange, as there are some that 'claim' to hear incredible improvements in arrangers that cost a fortune (hint - starts with a W, ends in a -ersi ) over more normal priced arrangers that I certainly can't hear, and when pushed, insist it must be due to the degradation an MP3 imposes on their supposed amazing sound....

But here is someone with a VERY expensive arranger that claims to NOT be able to really hear the 1700euro difference between it and regular priced arrangers. And he's got one in his living room! Me, I can HEAR the amazing sound even in a web MP3 (which aren't the excuse everyone's looking for) as clear as daylight.

Maybe that thread about hearing bats' frequencies should be revised to includes lower tones...? Maybe down to, oh, say 200Hz!

George,

Yes I think every knows that Korg is made in Italy and I think your whole reply as a dealer puts a different slant on it and I think you are right, IMO Ketron could reduce it's price,but perhaps not handle the extra production, they know what they can handle. Perhaps this is the best Arranger out there, but out of the price bracket of most serious players, if that is the case then it's sad.

Regards

[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 03-03-2010).]

I think Ketron could only DREAM of being unable to keep production up with demand...

This is NOT a cheap keyboard to produce, and the styles probably cost a heck of a lot more than regular MIDI styles to produce. Expecting it to be competitive with sinpler, higher volume arrangers is unrealistic, IMO.

Yes, I agree with George that allowing the same margin on Ketron's that other manufacturers allow would make a lot more dealers sit up and take notice (which would get a lot more players to be able to try them), but when all they have that is competitive is their TOTL über-expensive flagship, it's a tough row for ANY dealer to hoe...

Ketron appear to be content with the die-hard market they have in Italy, Portugal, etc., but if they want to break into the US in any significant way, they are going to have to trickle down their audio loop technology to something a bit cheaper, and make styles specifically for the US market as a priority.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 03-04-2010).]

Rule 1:
Buy what “YOU” want, not what somebody else wants.

Rule 2:
Get used to the fact that not everyone is like “YOU” (Hence all the different comments)

Rule3:
Don’t take comments personally, as it is purely “THEIR” personal opinion. (There is no right or wrong about it)

Rule 4:
Enjoy life and enjoy what you play, as it’s for “YOUR” personal enjoyment.

Rule 5:
Don’t moan about something if you make a mistake, just move on. (Nobody’s perfect)

Bill

I think that needs writing in a Stone Tablet and placing at the top of every SZ page

I also sell hi-end Italian made pro audio speakers, and I sell hi-end Automotive speakers and amps that are made in Italy.

The Owners of Electromedia, the makers of Audison, said that they sell 10 times the amount of products worldwide, they told me that the US buys nothing compared to the rest of the world, so when US potential buyers ask for certain changes, the company doesn't even lend a ear since what they are doing is working for 90% for the world.

The rest of the world uses arranger keyboards like the US has guitar players. So I know your saying well if they try they can get more sales from the US, but how much will it cost to just make a couple more sales.

I do like the philosophy of we will not change for just a few stubborn people.

Just to let you know

US may be less than 10% of their current market, but potentially, it has more wealth than the rest combined (or close to it). So, for the sake of a few fixes, and some styles that are geared more to us than Portugal (that economic powerhouse!), they would ignore a market with this amount of purchasing power?

Glad Yamaha and Korg (and Roland, to a lesser extent) don't treat us this way. Put it this way, Frank. Do you think, in the back of their minds, that Ketron would like the sales figures that the T3 has in the US? I bet you they'd cream themselves if they sold that many over here...

But sticking their noses in the air and going 'take it or leave it', well... It's obvious most have chosen to 'leave it' A small company like that can't afford to ignore a market with so much potential. If the Audya played in the same playground with Korg and Yamaha, it would give them a serious run for their money. But start to slip up into Wersi-like territory, and well, you know what is happening to Wersi....

Here are a few figures I hope everyone will find interesting..

Ketron Italy
2009 Sales (mil.) $6.0
Employees Total 21

Korg Inc.
2009 sales $173.5 (mil.)
Employees Total 290

Roland Corp.
2009 sales $387.7 (mil.)
Employees Total 2,708

Yamaha Corp.
2009 sales $4,721 (mil.)
Employees Total 26,803


As everyone can see Yamaha leaves everybody in the dust BUT their total is the "combined" total of ALL product divisions including their Motorcycles, Powered Jet Skis, Boats, Electronics, etc. Roland and Korg (and Ketron) are essentially selling musical instrument products only and products related to music media e.g speakers, recording devices, parts and accessories, etc.

What amazes me is that Ketron is still around at all. You have to hand it to Ketron's President Mario Falcioni whose tenacity at keeping Ketron afloat these last several years deserves major kudos for doing so. But I must add a strong note of caution about Ketron's foreseeable future as far as holding out much longer. If they do GREAT! But I have a lingering suspicion that Ketron may be facing a grim financial outlook in the near future as they struggle to make ends meet, and we could very well see the proverbial "writing on the wall" and their untimely demise at any time if you ask me.

General Music went belly up not too long ago and Ketron could be the next one to succumb to the dire world economy in my opinion. With the world economy still in the throes of a deep deep recession it is no wonder that thousands of companies are going under each year. And before General Music there was Technics (remember them??) - immediately leaving hundreds of KN7000 owners 'hung out to dry' as a result.

So as we see the arranger keyboard world whittled away by non-performing companies such as Technics and General Music what we have left standing is the Big Three and little else e.g. basically only Casio, Ketron, and Lionstracs. Whereas Casio is actually up and coming, Ketron seems to me to be on the way out or at the very least seen as "faltering" in the marketplace. Lionstracs is "up in the air" (out of sync) and very questionable as well, if you ask me. And only time will tell their fate(s) but I really hope they are able to overcome their difficulties and continue to thrive as companies. More competition means more choices for consumers and more choices means better prices for consumers overall. As we know many factors predispose the final outcome of various companies worldwide and the main harbinger for success in most cases, in my opinion, is whether the products being sold are considered top notch in quality and features, successfully marketed as such, reasonably priced against the competition, and what may be considered most important of all (at least by me anyway) - diligently "supported" by the manufacturer 'after' the sale. If companies adhere to those aforementioned principles they should be able to prosper and excel in the marketplace and even in tough times in my opinion. Examples being Yamaha, Korg, Roland and Casio. For the others, I wish for their success also. Time will tell of course.

All the best,
Mike

Wow! Sobering numbers, to say the least. One would have to conclude that unless you are comfortable buying what must be considered a 'boutique' keyboard, a Ketron would not be a smart buy for your average working musician, no matter what it sounded like. One other thing that separates Ketron from the 'big three' is their business model. Ketron seems to have thrown all eggs in the arranger basket while, for the others, arranger keyboards are actually the smallest part of their keyboard offerings. This could prove to be a fatal mistake.

This was a GREAT post, in that it sheds a lot of light on a lot of issues, such as, maintenance, support, new style development, support for 'old' products, etc., etc. In fact, anything that is going to be labor intensive. Once you take away the president, his son-in-law, his secretary, and the janitor, you can only spread 17 people so far. I wish them luck but I wouldn't hold onto that Ketron stock too long. JMO.

chas

at over 1/4 million dollars sales per employee that is incredible for a small company! That places Ketron ahead of Yamaha in productivity by over $100,000 per employee.

TWD


[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 03-09-2010).]

TWD makes a GREAT point

seems to me that KETRON is the one doing BEST out of ALL others, by a LANDSLIDE,

i mean 6 mil with about 30 employees

you do the math

or maybe my 4 years of calculus was not enough...

keybplayer,
how does Yamaha leave all in the dust, you see you many employees they have?
they may leave some in the dust with their fast motorcycles...

The problem with the small arranger manufacturers is mostly that they gambled heavily on the TOTL area of the market, never expecting the dire economic situation we are in, now (although the writing was on the wall for YEARS). Let's face it, if Ketron had leverage their loop technology to a product that competed with Yamaha's S910, they would be in a FAR healthier position than they are now. But they gambled that the rich would keep getting richer, and lost bigtime...

And, lest we think this is JUST Ketron, there is no doubt that without the PSR line to subsidize it, the Yamaha T3 is also an albatross around their necks. As is, to be honest, the entire TOTL arranger market, right now.

These are TINY industries. The gross from ONE Wal-Mart superstore is greater than the entire keyboard industry. Think about that

YES TWD,

That’s why Ketron can't get things done only in light years, one man and a dog can turn over £1M on Ebay. More money per head just shows they are greedy and owners are taking more out of the company exploiting the employee. There is more than one way to kill a pig TWD, you need that degree in Management TWD, music and the Hammond won't help you here! You need to look much deeper than TO per capita. For example, just take Ketron manuals I reckon at Ketron the cleaner writes them up, remember what you said about the cleaner, in fact if I pull your text you named all the 21 at Ketron.

Tony

Tony, Do know these people? Do you know how much they get paid? Do you know how much is re-invested into the company? Do you know how much is invested into new technology?

No TWD I don't have any names the cleaner or drummer, but what I do know is every worker earns Ketron £285,000:00 each per year, that's not take home pay, I wish I had a comapany like that, and if I had a company like that I would treat my customers differently, wouldn't you or would you rip them off too.

Ahahahahahahaha....

This is sad and funny, everyone is talking about the US market but you guys fail to know
and understand is that NOONE CARES ABOUT THE US, US is probably one of the
smallest consumers, in any market, not arrangers...we are 300 million people compared
to another 6 billion against...you really think Ketron or Korg would care? I know for a fact
that the US is also Korg Arrangers SMALLEST consumer too. And then we complain why
not this for USA why not that, they simply dont care...why dont i make styles for Audya?
I simply dont care, only 2 people have it, whos gonna buy from me? Same thing.

Nedim, when i buy, it will be 3

enough for you to make some styles? :-)

the pizza is getting cold?

Slice of Pizza per Style?

Maybe you are just self-justifying your own and the Italian arranger manufacturer's decisions, Nedim. You can't blame us for being a small slice of the arranger market when no-one makes product specifically for US. And you can't blame us for not buying your styles, when those that attempt American music miss the mark so badly...

If a product was aimed squarely at what American musicians WANT, they will buy it (ask me how many WS's are bought over here every year... go on, I dare you!), but when you keep churning out schlager machines and styles that would KILL any party of Yanks, you are SURPRISED we don't want them?

The economy of the United States is the largest national economy in the world. Its' nominal gross domestic product (GDP) was estimated at $14.2 trillion in 2009, which is about three times that of the world's second largest national economy, Japan. Its' GDP by PPP is almost twice that of the second largest, China.

And you don't want a piece of THAT?!

If you can't make a product we want, don't blame US...!

So you say the arrangers are not made for the USA market. I was wondering. If you could have anything you wanted on an arranger for the USA, what would you do differently? Is it the styles that make them wrong? Or the sounds? Or something else..are your fingers different sized to europeans for instance? hehe

Lol Diki...Diki, i understand your point and you are completely right but i had a different
point, what i am trying to say is that companies and devellopers go where the market is.
US Economy has nothing to do with consuming a product, the economy might be the
strongest but not enough people to buy, not anyone in the US is a musician and needs
an arranger and also not anyone is a construction worker to buy a buldozer...
if you understand my point.

I think it's a little deeper than there's not an arranger for the US market.

The US market is not like the rest of the world, the us market is not waiting for the perfect arranger, they are just not buying arrangers like the rest of the world.

We are now the number 1 DJ market, next probably guitars, then synths.

we generally have a couple of bars every couple of miles, some with full band stages, some with just enough room for a couple of musicians.

The rest of the world has cafes every other building, and in each is usually someone on a arranger entertaining.

So I agree with the face there is no "US" arranger, but I don't think that will fix the sales issue.

------------------
www.AudioworksCT.com

They'll never know until someone makes a product... the market doesn't exist UNTIL you make the product.

AFTER that, you can say based on results and sales, but in all fairness, who makes one? I'm not talking about an arranger biased towards existing US arranger users. You all know how small that market is... I'm talking about something that aims at whatever keyboard players there are, mostly buying WS's and synths at the moment in the US, and leverages the ease of use that arrangers have in spades over their WS brethren.

If anyone has any doubts about how well it COULD work, think about the DJX for a minute. To be honest, the sales on that thing scared the pants off of Yamaha! They killed it ASAP because it was scavenging WS sales! First manufacturer that jumps on THAT bandwagon again is going to find out just how big the US market is...

But I still don't get what it is you think the USA would need that is different from the rest of the world?

The USA would need more accordion players. I'm not trying to be funny.

not sure I get you? so do you mean an arranger for the US should be more suitable for an accordian player?

Ever even SEEN a DJX, TWD?

You buy enough of our contemporary music over there in the UK, TWD. How much of it can you perform on YOUR arranger? Without sounding like bad karaoke?

Arrangers, on the whole, concentrate on styles and sounds for the over forty (over fifty, to be honest!), and the majority of keyboard customers are younger than that (other than for arrangers, pianos and organs). If they made a keyboard that combined the best of arrangers' live ease of use with the best of WS sounds and groove patterns, like the DJX did (at its' price point), it would sell as well as the DJX did.

Imagine an arranger at the S910 price point, but ENTIRELY dedicated to modern pop, hiphop, rap, modern techno (not the dated stuff in your and my arranger), alternative rock, basically any style you hear on the charts NOW, but with none of the complexity and OS unfriendliness of modern WS's... (and it could have all the legacy styles added later)

You honestly think that wouldn't sell like hotcakes over here? To be honest, I think it would sell like hotcakes over THERE, too...

But you are succeeding!

Dare I say it?? I agree with Diki!!! Back in the '70's they laughed at the the Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic .... are they laughing now?? My point ... if you make an arranger KB that is "Style" wise USA and promote it ... maybe ... just maybe interest will change!!! What's the investment?? Hire some "USA" musician arrangers to develope styles?? Korg and Yamaha can do that and would not cost them a fortune! In fact it would be fly s**t!! Call it the USA version PA2x or Tyros. Diki has talked about this many times and I believe it would increase sales. The "stigma" the arranger has in this country (USA)is because it is "Uncool" like the accordion. Like the Toyota was!! If you can convince people to buy "Bottled" water you can sell arranger KB's!!!

[This message has been edited by JCkeeys (edited 03-12-2010).]

Got to disagree with you a BIT on that post...

Accordions in the US are NOT uncool everywhere. Zydeco is hip, hot, and happening. Tejunto is VERY cool. Accordions have been used in rock pop and folk-rock very effectively (think the Bruce's Springsteen and Hornsby). Check out bands like Polkacide, death metal accordion music , and many other cool things. Just because YOU associate them with Lady of Spain and polka music (mind you, I bet there's plenty up in Wisconsin that thing polka cool!) doesn't mean they ain't cool SOMEWHERE...

And arrangers aren't uncool either... They are just a tool to make music with. The styles and the sounds are uncool, but there's nothing WRONG with the idea of an arranger. Just its' execution at the hands of the manufacturers (in more ways than one!)...

Come to think of it, maybe I'm coming round to Dan01's idea... Could be we DO need more accordions over here

Diki I am an old Accordion player!! I love Accordions! But in the part of the country (USA) I'm in they are "Uncool"!! I agree there are places in the USA that Accordions are popular but I think we were talking in "General" terms and the reason Arranger KB's don't sell here like in Europe??? Frankieve lives in the general area I do and what he says is true. I travel quite a bit and have never come across an arranger player in a lounge! Granted ... this is a BIG country and tastes vary. I believe you live in northern Fla. well ... that is certainly a different culture than Long Island and southern Connecticut. I think that is the issue here many times when discussions start on varies topics. One size does NOT fit all!!

PS I do not think of the Accordion as "Lady Of Spain" (although I did play that on the Accordion) but I think many people do!

[This message has been edited by JCkeeys (edited 03-12-2010).]

I understand what your saying and I agree.

Although I was working for Yamaha's service department when the DJX was first released over here and as far as i could tell they were only ever viewed as a novelty item even though they sold container loads to school boys at christmas. You can pick them up for a few pounds on ebay now.

You are 100% right though, arrangers will never be taken seriously here or in the USA as long as you can find a glen miller category that sets the keyboard up to sound like a 1940 dance band. Problem is, here at least thats where the money is - the ex organist.

I would have thought the USA would want the same as me. A keyboard that utilizes real Audio ability that can be managed in real time along with top quality instruments. I am not interested in general midi files (unless they are used to control lighting or live audio) and definately don't want thousands of presets that set an instrument up to sound like a song from the 50s, 60s or 80s. I just can't get into an arranger that does the theatre organ sound..and does it well!!

over here, with the exception of Ketron and Korg its not the over 40s that buy most of the arrangers as you say...its the over 60s. and they buy alot of them. Particuarly Tyros.



[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 03-12-2010).]

Arrangers will NEVER get popular again UNTIL the manufacturers decide to make them so. No kid is going to buy one in the HOPE that it might suddenly become cool to play bossa novas again!

It's entirely in their hands, and I am afraid to say that not ONE of them (unless you count MS, which hardly qualifies as an arranger) is looking any further ahead than today. Either someone goes out on a limb and makes it, or the death of the arranger will come with the death of the last, oldest current arranger player (or their NH customer!). They either grow the brand NOW, or it's game over...

And Dan01... well, I'm an old(ish! ) accordion player myself, and all I can say to you is, play a set of rockin' zydeco up in Connecticut or Rhode Island, and watch the dance floor pack! Top zydeco artists like CJ Chenier and Chubby Carrier tour nationally to packed houses and festivals, it's not just a Louisiana thang...

Or a John Mellencamp tune or two... accordion is hipper than you think. I have turned up and jammed with dozens, if not hundreds of bands in my day on an accordion, and it never does anything but get a smile from band and audience alike...

Been thinking of picking up a Roland FR-1 baby V-Accordion to go jam with, as I've blown out a couple of semi-decent real 120 bass accordions trying to keep up with rock band volumes! Anyone played one of those, yet? Not the big one, the baby one (12 lbs )...

there is one manufacturer that is trying.

don't bother listening unless you have studio monitors or professional quality headphones.

and then say honestly if that sounds like an arranger.

http://www.hammond-organ.com/downloads/1.mp3
http://www.hammond-organ.com/downloads/2.wav
http://www.hammond-organ.com/downloads/3.wav
http://www.hammond-organ.com/downloads/4.wav
http://www.hammond-organ.com/downloads/5.wav

My feeling is there are more accordion players in Europe than the USA. Many Accordion players find it easy to play an arranger keyboard. Most arranger customers in the USA that I had when I was in retail, all started with the accordion as a kid. I am talking about an age group of 60 to 80 years old. So this age group was playing accordion in the 50's or 60's.

In Europe the accordion is a much more acceptable instrument. Ketron in particular has made products to be used by accordion players since the company began.

Theyeven made a arranger with accordion buttons.

Since europe has more accordion players, they in turn have more arranger players.

Just my opinion.

When I started selling arranger keyboards back in 1986, in was piano stores that carried the product, not music stores. Music stores had the dx7 & korg m1.

Piano stores sold the 1 finger play, to home organ customers who had lowery or kimball or baldwin organs with easy play features.

The divide started with piano stores carrying psr-60,70,80 & 90's and selling them for $600 to $900 bucks. Where as music stores had the dx - juno and korg synths/workstations.

Many organ players where accordion players.

Get where I am going ?

i understand.

Although in England we have a similar taste to the US and the accordion is not so popular.

There is an old joke here that goes like this:

Whats the definition of perfect pitch?
When an accordion is thrown down a toilet without touching the sides.

disclaimer. this joke does not necesarily represent the opinion of TWD. hehe

TWD

[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 03-12-2010).]

sorry...can't help myself:


Q. What's the difference between an accordion and a macaw?
A. One is loud, obnoxious and noisy; the other is a bird.

Q. Why did the chicken cross the road?
A. To get away from the accordion recital.

Q. What is the best thing to play on an accordion ?
A. A flame thrower.

Q. What's the difference between an accordion and a trampoline?
A. You should take your shoes off before jumping on a trampoline.

Q. What's the difference between an accordion and an onion?
A. People cry when you chop up an onion.

Q. What do you get when you toss an accordion off a tall building?
A. Applause.

Q. Why do some people have an instant aversion to accordion players?
A. It saves time in the long run.

Q. When does a accordion player sound the best?
A. When the tune is over.

Q. What's the definition of a gentleman?
A. Someone who knows how to play the accordion and doesn't.

Sorry that was un-called for...after all there is only one Accordion Joke...the rest are true stories

I don't mind them really!

I better get some sleep before they come knocking at my door armed with banjos! Night!

Sorry, TWD, but have you heard ANYTHING like this music coming out of the US for the last twenty years or more? Didn't think so... (BTW, listened to on my Mackie HR824's)

And sorry, Dan, but I believe that European music itself is one of the reasons the arranger and accordion survive. On the charts, at least, here in the States, you won't find songs that have anything LIKE the chordal simplicity and rhythmic simplicity that is so easy to do on arrangers and accordions. Far more of the ethnic music heritage has been preserved and appreciated, even by younger players (especially continental Europe) than exists here in America. But try to do MODERN hiphop, pop, R&B, rap, alternative on an arranger, and you are hopelessly lost getting even CLOSE to the record, let alone nailing it.

Young players are the majority of buyers of keyboards in general. And until arranger manufacturers make arrangers that CAN easily play today's American music (and let's not forget, the rest of the world is buying and listening to our music in droves, and letting it influence THEIR music, just like Rock & Roll and Soul and R&B did in your day), they will remain niche products. But if they DO, there's absolutely nothing stopping them being popular again. I mean, who WOULDN'T want a keyboard 10X's easier to use than a modern WS to make modern music?

I tell you, first one out the blocks to make a modern equivalent of the DJX (they are so cheap nowadays because their styles have become dated - same process but magnified applies to OUR arrangers) is going to make a FORTUNE...

Sad thing is, guys, substitute 'arranger' for 'accordion' in most of those jokes, and you have the EXACT attitude most youngsters have to them..

With reason..!

Appologies- I should have quoted you....I posted the files, not to prove that an arranger does American music but in response to this:




I'm glad you listened to the samples though. Thankfully it doesn't have any Mantovani, Glen Miller or Reginald Dixon presets.


[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 03-13-2010).]

"On the charts, at least, here in the States, you won't find songs that have anything LIKE the chordal simplicity and rhythmic simplicity that is so easy to do on arrangers and accordions"

So you are saying that there have not been any songs on the charts that have only 3 or 4 chords ?


My point is not what is musically correct. It was more of a statement on who the target market was when arranger keyboards 1st hit the scene in the mid to late 80's.

Arrangers have never been perceived as a professional product because of the target customer from the beginning. Just my opinion.


[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 03-13-2010).]

Diki I think you referenced DAN instead of me in your post.
Everyone has referenced Europe and the USA. What about Japan and China??? Last I checked there a "Few" people who live there

Yeah..let's bring China and Japan in the mix.
How 'bout India too !

From what I understand talking to my colleagues from Japan it is very different to the West

They are into ensemble music in a BIG way. The schools start off with Suzuki Melodions which teaches breath control, keyboard skills and the basic principles of Music. Suzuki have a government contract and supply many of the schools with Harmonicas (melodions obviously) and Hammond Organs. They have a little instrument called the Hammond Jnr that you won't find anywhere else in the world. It is a 37 note keyboard with a set of 9 drawbars. There are plastic coloured slides that you can use to form a drawbar shape.

They also use Hammond XE1 keyboards to lead an ensemble of maybe 50 people playing melodions and mallet instruments.

Karaoke is obviously the big thing over there and most places will have a Karaoke center rather than a guy with a Ketron SD1 playing in the corner.

They still play Organ. And schools will have a Hammond XT/XH and Yamaha have instruments that sound like EL series for the home market and these are also used in schools and for organ concerts. Their is no old fart stigma attached to organ playing there...they just love music.

Hammond has become more popular and there are a number of very good Jazz Clubs now.

The younger generation love western music including the supergroups from past decades.

The older generation also learn instruments, but more traditional. The taisho koto (harp) is very popular among this group.

I might be off the mark - as I say its just what i have gathered from talking.

TWD


[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 03-13-2010).]

Sorry for the misquote, Dan. Thing is, when arrangers really started to hit he scene back in the eighties, so did WS's. But WS's have moved on radically from where they started, and arrangers, to be honest, haven't. WS's of today are quite capable of sounding like today (because that's what much of the hits were MADE on!) but they still don't have a fraction of the arrangers' ease of use, live.

But arrangers are still mired in the roots of mom and pop's living room organ, sound and style-wise, and are rapidly becoming irrelevant to younger players, especially here in the US. We are buying WS's by the container load, but arrangers have become VERY hard to find, especially TOTL ones. My local dealer has M3-88's, FantomG's, MoXS's up the ying-yang, but there isn't a Tyros for miles, or a PA2X or a Ketron for HUNDREDS of miles. And I'm in a fairly retiree-friendly part of the US!

And that is ENTIRELY the fault of the manufacturers. There is nothing intrinsically dated about the arranger control paradigm. It is as easily adapted to modern music as any other. It's just the sounds, the styles, and a few basic functions that hold it back. As I said, the DJX proved that, if done right, a hiphop/rap arranger sells like hotcakes over here (and to be honest, anywhere else in the world where American music is an influence). There is NO defined 'market', only what the product can and can't do.

And I'm sorry for discounting the Asian community, but you have to realize that these things ARE made primarily in Europe, primarily for Europeans (continental ones at that), and you have to have special models made that are relevant to YOUR musics and sounds. And they sell well because of it. Let's face it, they weren't until the Asian sounds and styles got added.

That's ALL I'm talking about... if the Asian market is sufficiently big to warrant a whole product re-vamp, why not the world's largest economy? How about the PSR910US, or the GW8-US? GW-8 came out with THREE variants, not ONE of which was geared to modern America. Asia, Europe and Latin America got tailor made soundsets and styles. But the world's largest economy..?

Zip, zilch, nada...

If I were an arranger company stockholder, I'd be asking some VERY pointed questions at meetings about the DJX and why no-one followed up on its' success.

Diki said "But WS's have moved on radically from where they started, and arrangers, to be honest, haven't. WS's of today are quite capable of sounding like today (because that's what much of the hits were MADE on!) but they still don't have a fraction of the arrangers' ease of use, live.
But arrangers are still mired in the roots of mom and pop's living room organ, sound and style-wise, and are rapidly becoming irrelevant to younger players, especially here in the US. "


I had a conversation with friends over at musicplayer.com and talked about workstations. The general comment is none of the big three are doing much of anything with bringing out something new in a work station that is not born from the previous workstation. Yamaha has a relationship with Steinberg ( they own it) and there are strides from that end.

But Ketron's Audya is something new in the arranger market and everyone seems to agree with that the keyboard sounds amazing. Let's hope that the refinements will come out and we can all talk about music production.

I know that I could not record with a traditional workstation the way I have recorded with the SD1.

I will be very interested in a module or 61 note Audya for home use. My Church is getting money together for the 76 note Audya.


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http://www.esnips.com/web/SongsfromDanO

[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 03-14-2010).]