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#272661 - 10/27/09 08:51 AM Re: Lionstracs new products
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Taike:
OT but I'm just happy to see that Ian spelled "pros" the way it should be spelled instead of "pro's" which seems to be the preferred spelling of most SZers.

Thank you, Ian. There's still hope.

Please proceed, guys...



Thanks Taike...I'm doing much gooder in my English...I only made one mistake in my post and I seen it as soon as I done it.


Again...carry on.
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#272662 - 10/27/09 02:35 PM Re: Lionstracs new products
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Well, first of all, let us address Genesys, who never found a logical argument he couldn't completely miss the point of...

WS's and arrangers are BOTH used by people for completely different tasks, often completely exclusively. In other words the sales of arrangers and WS's do not compete, because they don't do the same thing. But BOTH of them compete and dominate open keyboard sales, when asked to do the same thing. Clearer now?

As to the rest, look, software VSTi sales (pretty healthy sales, at that) go in large percentage towards bedroom jockeys and studios. The largest percentage of their users have no need whatsoever to go out live and perform the same things. And, as sales figures show, when they DO want to go out live, the vast majority of them, AT THE MOMENT, STILL choose closed WS's or controllers wired to laptops. Primarily, I think it is a budgetary consideration. But I also think that the front ends of the soft keyboards need FAR more work to make them as easy to use, and especially, easy to use LIVE as a closed WS like MoXS, etc. Don't forget, MoXS, M3, FantomG all have VERY good samplers and loop slice players, and they don't suffer the consequences of dynamic CPU load. When they say they'll do 128 voices, they don't choke when asked to, depending on the CPU load of a certain TYPE of voice.

Read the reviews of the Arturia Origin. Polyphony is at eighties levels on that sucker! Sure, your MS or V-Machine might do hundreds of sampler voices. But, let's face it... An awful lot of people (me included) want the best possible analog synth emu's they can use, and those things are CPU HOGS!

James, back in the day, Akai dominated the sampler scene. Live, and in the studio. But then, in the studio, GIGA and other soft samplers completely destroyed their usefulness, and, don't forget, Akai had a RAM limit of 32MB (the Z series was buggy and came too late). Since then, closed WS's (and some arrangers) have come out with ROM totals going up to over 300MB. In other words, in a modern WS you already have TEN Akai samplers' worth of VERY high quality samples, and THEN you have a sampler with up to 512MB as well!

But primarily, the NEED to cart a few Akai around live has disappeared because the ROM sounds in TOTL WS's (and some MOTL, too) got good enough you didn't NEED a rack of samplers any more. You probably dedicated a whole Akai to JUST the piano sound you liked. My G70, even, has an acoustic piano I prefer over any Akai piano I used! And that's just ONE of the sounds it has. I would need DOZENS of Akai samplers to get a sound collection even as good as the one in my Roland's ROM...

Yes, things change. But it isn't ONLY open keyboards that have progressed exponentially...

I am still not sure why everyone keeps dodging my point. I am as big a fan of soft sounds as any of you (I might even be using them more than some of you!) but I am trying to point out that, in a live situation, without the time to painstakingly set up everything in advance for every tune you do, in a live band setting where you don't even know what the next tune IS, let alone what setup you'll need, so far IN MY OPINION (got to hammer that one into you, it appears ), I have yet to see an open keyboard that makes playing live as easy as a closed one.

You want to know where I got the 'Casio with 24 bit converters' comparison? Listen to the MS demos (or some of those awful Wersi demos). I was not by ANY means the only one making that comparison..!

A 'live' keyboard has utterly different needs and operation to anything else. For now, IMO, there isn't one that is a fraction of how easy to use as many closed keyboards. So, while I respect your opinions, I am unswayed from my POV. I keep a fairly good eye on these things, and as soon as someone DOES make an open keyboard that makes making music LIVE easier than what I currently have, you can be sure I will get one.

Until then...

I will continue to use arrangers, WS's and VSTi's as separate entities, as different as each of their needed tasks are. While open keyboards' SOUNDS are easily upgradeable, their OS's are NOT. We have seen how utterly Dom failed at providing an OS and front end for his VSTi player that provided the ease and reliability of a hardware arranger (STILL no ONBASS or BASS INV capability after all these years? ) and to my knowledge, no-one has yet made an entire VSTi soundset as integrated, comprehensive and as well balanced as those that come with hardware arrangers (and WS's). If you have the skills to create one, you're in business. If you are NOT (and I include myself and close to 100% of the entire SZ membership in that group!), and you need the versatility of soundset to cover ANY kind of music, IMO your better bet is to use a closed arranger/WS, and maybe a V-Machine or laptop for the few sounds you DO want 'open'.

But forcing yourself to give up entirely the ease of use and integration of a closed keyboard, to gain a FEW sounds that aren't already 'good enough for live' seems such a poor tradeoff.

DJ's, producers, national touring acts (with keyboard technicians to help you program the things! ), these seem the perfect market for these things. Arranger users, gigging WS users, these seem to me to be FAR better served with what they already have...

And please, just for once, before you reply to this, would you remember that I DO like soft synths, I DO like soft samplers, I DO like software loop players, and use computers a LOT for studio and home recording. It's just that, so far, I haven't seen ANYTHING that would allow me to make music LIVE with them that is even a fraction as easy as using a closed keyboard...

YET....
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#272663 - 10/27/09 03:19 PM Re: Lionstracs new products
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Diki: “Well, first of all, let us address Genesys, who never found a logical argument he couldn't completely miss the point of...
WS's and arrangers are BOTH used by people for completely different tasks, often completely exclusively. In other words the sales of arrangers and WS's do not compete, because they don't do the same thing. But BOTH of them compete and dominate open keyboard sales, when asked to do the same thing. Clearer now?”

Apparently you have not been following the progression of the posts.
And, you really don’t understand the market for an open keyboard.
The market is not for the home user who is just content to have a cheap Yamaha PSR S900 or just a Roland G70.
The market is for the gigging person who have an arranger like the Motif xs and also has computer software and VSTs.

And, If you think WS and arrangers do not compete, you better have a talk with Yamaha.

People have been using workstations for years and compared to arrangers they are not the easiest things to operate on a live gig. Unless you have actual proof and not conjecture that open keyboards are much more difficult to use that workstations, then…..
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#272664 - 10/27/09 03:33 PM Re: Lionstracs new products
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Simple test, Genesys. Put me on my G70 and you on a Neko. Have someone call out 'Piano and strings layered in the left hand, a brass section/solo soft sax/brass section swell layer layered in the right... GO!'

The song will be over before you have made that setup, and I will have done it by the end of the intro.

It is interesting that this is one of the first posts where you acknowledge that the open keyboards are for someone who ALREADY has a MoXS or WS and wants VSTi's live. Because, up till now, all I have heard is how obsolete these poor closed keyboards are, and all you REALLY need is the one open keyboard. I agree that there is a specific need that the open keyboards are really good at, but it AIN'T replacing a WS (or an arranger). They make excellent ADDITIONS to those things, but as I have been saying forever, on their own, they are still not ready for prime time. That day WILL come, and you will be able to create setups and select styles or loops as easily as you can on the closed keyboards.

But it isn't now...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#272665 - 10/27/09 03:57 PM Re: Lionstracs new products
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
The market is not for the home user who is just content to have a cheap Yamaha PSR S900 or just a Roland G70.
The market is for the gigging person who have an arranger like the Motif xs and also has computer software and VSTs.



Thing is, I am that EXACT person. I have G70, yes, but I also have Triton and K2500S, Oberheim's and DX7 and other older gear... and a bunch of VSTi's. And I DON'T consider that I need the open keyboard yet...

And, going from the sales figures of open keyboards, I don't think I'm alone.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#272666 - 10/27/09 04:34 PM Re: Lionstracs new products
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
imho, the true open keyboard for live use will not come about until the entire hardware panel is made up of a touchscreen.

That way when the softeware changes, all the buttons and tabs get changed too.

No more hardware buttons becoming non-functioning, or requiring overlays for the new mappings.

I am sure this could be done now, just look at how much operation on the Korgs (and Rolands) can be accomplished by JUST using the touch screen. Now make that screen the entire width of the panel, and voila!!!

Dennis

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#272667 - 10/27/09 06:03 PM Re: Lionstracs new products
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Simple test, Genesys. Put me on my G70 and you on a Neko. Have someone call out 'Piano and strings layered in the left hand, a brass section/solo soft sax/brass section swell layer layered in the right... GO!'

The song will be over before you have made that setup, and I will have done it by the end of the intro.

It is interesting that this is one of the first posts where you acknowledge that the open keyboards are for someone who ALREADY has a MoXS or WS and wants VSTi's live. Because, up till now, all I have heard is how obsolete these poor closed keyboards are, and all you REALLY need is the one open keyboard. I agree that there is a specific need that the open keyboards are really good at, but it AIN'T replacing a WS (or an arranger). They make excellent ADDITIONS to those things, but as I have been saying forever, on their own, they are still not ready for prime time. That day WILL come, and you will be able to create setups and select styles or loops as easily as you can on the closed keyboards.

But it isn't now...


So we are back to the point that if arrangers are that easy to use, why don’t a lot more live gigging musicians use arrangers? If the G70 is very easy to use (and I am not disputing that), why don’t a lot more people use it for live playing?
An arranger and workstation can both be used either in a band or in a one man band set-ups.


Regardless of what the answer is, it comes down to personal preference.

Arrangers may be integrated with a drum machine onboard and a variety of sounds, but some people still prefer to use a WS on the gig and use midi files, a drum machine and may be 2 or 3 keyboards.
One person’s priority may be very different from another’s.

Likewise, although an open keyboard may integrate a home studio and a live gig set-up, some persons may prefer to keep every thing separate and never mix studio sounds with live gig sounds.

OH and when I mentioned the Motif xs, I was referring to a type of power user of keyboards and not that the person has to have a workstation and wants to add a open arranger.



[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 10-27-2009).]
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#272668 - 10/27/09 06:17 PM Re: Lionstracs new products
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi James,
thank you for the offer, I may take you up on it.
I unloaded all my soundfonts etc from my Dell & saved them for future use.
The old dell started to get too glitchy.
Hopefully I can still find the soundfont I was working on.

My primary interest in the V Machine is to midi it to the Korg.

If it also works with soundfonts & OMB on my netbook, that would just be an added bonus.

Still haven't had a chance to see one, but I've glanced thru the manual.

best wishes
Rikki

Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
Hi Rikki.

Yeah, the setup I have on my V-Machine right now should be able to do that just by loading the SF2 file straight into the Sample Playback VSTi I'm running.

I'm using Sample Lord and it supports GM standards. http://www.samplelord.com

If you have a GM SF2 file you want me to load up on it to verify this, just let me know. I don't use my V-Machine in that way but loading a GM SF2 file should be all that's need.

Regards
James.
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#272669 - 10/27/09 07:24 PM Re: Lionstracs new products
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Diki,
I collected approx 5 gigs of soundfonts during my "Softsynth/ Software Arranger" phase (commercial & freebies).
They were pretty much the only editable option for style tracks for OMB.
Case of either editing every psr style I wanted to use , or try editing the soundfont to suit the styles themselves. Got part way there. Mix n match of individual instruments from various soundfont banks.

Basically wanted a psr arranger module for my clavinova.

Some of the sounds are really quite good, especially some of the strings. The piano's sucked, & remapping the drums to xg was a bit of a nightmare, only because I really don't know much about the tweaking process of sounds.
Knew how to shuffle them around, but not how to get the best sound out of them.

My pc got glitchy, packed it all up & bought the Korg.

best wishes
Rikki

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Oops, woke up early!

Remind me again about any soundfont GM set that even comes CLOSE to a TOTL arranger's sound set, will you?
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#272670 - 10/27/09 09:04 PM Re: Lionstracs new products
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
imho, the true open keyboard for live use will not come about until the entire hardware panel is made up of a touchscreen.

That way when the softeware changes, all the buttons and tabs get changed too.

No more hardware buttons becoming non-functioning, or requiring overlays for the new mappings.

I am sure this could be done now, just look at how much operation on the Korgs (and Rolands) can be accomplished by JUST using the touch screen. Now make that screen the entire width of the panel, and voila!!!

Dennis


Although I am not a big fan of touchscreens, this makes perfect sense, and should solve quite a few issues.

Good idea, Dennis.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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